Gayish: 322 Roller Coasters

Wheeeee! This episode is a roller coaster in and of itself as we talk about Britney Spears, Catherine the Great, Moulin Rouge, Australian daddy bears, euthanasia, and arrested development. Remember, never be a roller coaster!

In this episode: News- 1:10 || Main Topic (Roller Coasters)- 11:54 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:02:29

On the weekly bonus Patreon segment, we talk about gender stereotypes in roller coaster and how Polly Pocket helped to break them. Get lots of great perks and support the show by joining at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Click, click, click, click, click, click, click! Hellooooo, everyone in the podcast universe, this is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ  

That won’t make sense until- Um, the podcast that’s basically verbal exhibitionism.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, heheh, look at my dick!

KYLE GETZ

Wow!

MIKE JOHNSON

Listen to my dick. I don’t- [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Wait, let’s all listen to Mike’s dick.

MIKE JOHNSON

…Roar. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

That’s what the Katy Perry song, Roar, is about.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…

KYLE GETZ

Today…

MIKE JOHNSON

Best episode ever already, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ  

So far. Uh, we’re gonna talk about roller coasters.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We’re gonna talk about roller coasters.

KYLE GETZ

As requested…

MIKE JOHNSON

By Gap Bridger John Crawley.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, but first…

KYLE GETZ

But first…

MIKE JOHNSON

Here’s the news!

KYLE GETZ  

Damn getting fuckin’ into it. [Mike chuckles] We got shit to do, we got places to be, we got rides to ride.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

Okay, news the first: this uh, “Angela Bassett did the thing” rap [Kyle laughs] is like very funny to me.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And uh, it’s amazing, so maybe we should find a clip of it so that it actually makes sense, because I have not heard the rap yet.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

But apparently Ariana DeBose – and I don’t know who that is, except that she’s queer – um…

KYLE GETZ  

And an Oscar award winner, apparently.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yep. And, um, she did a rap at the BAFTA awards, and in that includes the line “Angela Bassett did the thing,” and then Lizzo brought it up at her concert just a couple of nights later, and then Angela Bassett, who won a NAACP Image Award, then said “I guess I did the thing.” So “Angela Bassett did the thing” is now- Like, gay Twitter is like up in arms about how amazing it is, and campy, and like- But apparently the rap itself is like, kind of hard to watch because it’s cringy.

KYLE GETZ  

That entire thing- Like, this trend was a roller coaster in and of itself. It was like, “Eugh.” It was weird. Some people were like having fun with it in the audience, some weren’t, then it like came back around and everyone was like “You know what? This is so bad it’s cool now.” Like, it’s- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well- And so- Like, the bad part included Ariana DeBose deactivating her Twitter.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, because people hated it that much, I guess.

KYLE GETZ  

God, that is my worst fear; like I take a big risk and everyone’s like “Oh, you did very bad and we all hate it,” and then I would also be like “Okay, I’m not on any social anymore. Bye.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s interesting, because you would think, like- I don’t know. Haters are gonna hate no matter what, right?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. That’s what Taylor Swift has been saying all along.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[quietly] [chuckles] Goddammit, fuck her. [both laugh] Uh, yeah, so- Yeah, it was- Yeah. Last Sunday, she did the thing, on Monday deactivated her Twitter, and then on Saturday then on the radio she did a radio interview and said “Gay Twitter seemed to like it.” But yeah. Anyway, It’s a happy ending. Let’s hear that rep, and then we- Yeah, here we go.

KYLE GETZ

Wait, we waited to play it just then?

MIKE JOHNSON

Nah, you can play whenever you want to. I don’t care.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

Angela Basset did the thing. Viola Davis, my Woman King. Blanchett, Cate, you’re a genius, and Jamie Lee, you are all of us!

MIKE JOHNSON

News the second. Oh, I’m doing a shit sandwich today, so are you ready-

KYLE GETZ

Ohh. Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Are you ready for the shit part?

KYLE GETZ

Mm, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah? We gotta talk about this law that they’re considering in Florida. So basically, in a nutshell, this bill, which is House Bill 991, introduced by Florida Representative Alex Andrade, a Republican, fuckin’ shocker-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and they are changing the state’s defamation laws in such a way that, basically, accusing someone else of homophobia or transphobia is defamation.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I saw- Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. So if you do something homophobic, like, uh, I don’t know, kick me out of your cake shop because you don’t want to make no gay wedding cakes, and then I say “That’s homophobic,” you can now sue me for $35,000 or more under this new law because calling you homophobic is illegal. Now, every first amendment lawyer in the country that has weighed in on this so far has said there’s absolutely fucking no way that this is constitutional, but they’re trying it anyway.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, they love the First Amendment unless it’s something that they don’t- unless they don’t like it, then- You know? Like, it’s just nothing- They don’t- They have no policies, or values, or anything. They’re just devoid of any kind of caring, or value, or-

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know. I’m just so over every Republican.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And this this bill goes slightly further even, and makes it more problematic perhaps, constitutionally, by saying that the truth of the statement does not matter.

KYLE GETZ

Hm.

MIKE JOHNSON

If you did actual homophobic shit, and I call you homophobic, I’m in the wrong under the terms of this bill, if it moves forward.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, my God, they care about truth now?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, well, you know. And it’s the same thing, like- Like, white people, they hate being called racist more than they hate racism.

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

They hate being called homophobic more than they hate homophobia.

KYLE GETZ  

Republicans and white people, like, want to be oppressed so badly. [Mike laughs] They want the- Like, they think being oppressed is like cool or hip now, and they believe that they’re- they don’t understand act what it actually feels like, so they think that being called a name once is what oppression is.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

So they’re like “No, no, no, I’m the oppressed one because you called me a name.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Like, it’s just not- You don’t- You don’t get- You don’t know what this feels like or is.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep, and it’s like the only way they want to be Christlike is to be a martyr. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, without actually doing like good shit or caring about people.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. [sighs] Yeah, it’s- it’s really- It’s really, really fucked up.

KYLE GETZ  

Do you think some of our Republican listeners still listen? Do you think they’ve made it here?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Hi!

KYLE GETZ

We had quite a few. We had quite a few that made- uh, when we did our survey, that it left notes saying that like they don’t like this part of the show, and- [both chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

Oh yeah. I mean, make your party stop being shitty to us. Like, I think that’s- I think you gotta fix it, not us.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. Yep. You religious folks out there that hate the things we say about religion, make your religion not suck.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, Republicans that listen to us, why? [Kyle laughs] But also, make your party not suck.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Matthew Schafer, the media law chair for the New York City Bar Association, tweeted, quote, “I’ve been practicing First Amendment law for about ten years. I’ve never seen anything like this proposed Florida law & this section in particular. This is precisely the concern of rolling back limits on libel. States will use libel to bend the public dialogue to their own will.” And that’s- that’s what’s going on. That’s the- The undercurrent of all of this is being able to control what people say, and I think this this goes back to this thing that’s come up on the show a few times here recently, of, like, they know that they have lost the hearts and minds of the country, and they’re gonna go out kicking and screaming, and kicking and screaming they are.

KYLE GETZ  

This is what I will say for Republicans: they use every available avenue. And so, go the legal route, fine. Go- You know, whatever option they have they will exploit it to as far as they can.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

So-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep, and DeSantis needs points because he’s running for president, so the more like ridiculous like right-wing pandering, drum up bullshit, anger, fearmongering he can do…

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

This is a good avenue for that.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Fuck that guy, fuck that state, fuck everything, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ

Fuck everything!

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m in a mood. I- Let’s make the episode a roller coaster in and of itself, and this is- this is the scary part, or the part- I dunno.

KYLE GETZ  

Right before we drop, or…?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, we’re gonna scream and have fun now.

KYLE GETZ

Okay!

MIKE JOHNSON

News the third!

KYLE GETZ  

Waaaaa!

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Uh, Gucci!

KYLE GETZ

Okay! [chuckles] Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Gucci has released a new campaign promoting their fragrance called “Guilty”, and the new-

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Spokesperson: Donald Trump.

MIKE JOHNSON

Spokesperson: Elliott Page!

KYLE GETZ

Shut the fuck up!

MIKE JOHNSON

Elliot Page is the new face of Gucci. His fans are, of course, really excited about it. He will appear across their upcoming campaign, to be released in March, so coming up here in a couple of weeks, but the brand did release a teaser on their Instagram, and he will start alongside, uh… A-Dollar-Sign-AP Rocky… and Julia Garner.

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I don’t know who A$AP Rocky is.

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, it’s “A-Dollar-Sign-AP”. You were right the first time.

MIKE JOHNSON

Kee-Dollar-Sign-ha. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Ke-Dollar-Sign-ha. There’s no dollar sign in it anymore.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

She’s an adult now.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Has she [chuckles] considered putting it back?

KYLE GETZ  

Maybe. Uh, we’re all waiting for the Kesha renaissance, when the dollar sign comes back.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Oh, God. Anyway, he’s absolutely adorable. He appears in a Hawaiian shirt, makin’ eyes at the camera, and I’m here for it. And uh, he also released- He also announced last year that he’s going to be releasing a memoir.

KYLE GETZ

Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s coming up this June, just in time for pride, and it’s called Pageboy, and he said, quote, “Writing a book has come up a few times over the years, but it never felt right and quite frankly, it didn’t feel possible. I could barely sit still, let alone focus long enough to complete such a task.” But, like a lot of trans folks encounter, like coming out the other side of transition and living more authentically, he said, quote, “I can [finally] be with myself, in this body [and] share [that] … story with [the world]”. So, yeah! And, of course, Umbrella Academy is still going, I guess. He just-

KYLE GETZ

Is it?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. The last season was good. I enjoyed it.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. I haven’t-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway, just, like, Elliott Page is a rock star, and crushing it, and now is like- his face is gonna be the face of Gucci, which I think is just so fuckin’ cool.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, that level of visibility for trans people, especially transmasculine people. I feel that, like, transfeminine people have had more visibility lately in like media, like a lot more actresses and appearances like that. There- I feel like there are less transmasc folks in like mainstream media, and he’s a major exception to that, which is pretty great.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s the news!

KYLE GETZ

That’s the news! Um, well, we are all caught up on our Patreon naming, so thank you to John Crawley for requesting this episode. We’ll just keep thanking you a whole bunch.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

If you want to have us do an episode, if we haven’t done an episode topic, then pay us.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Give us money and we’ll do your topic!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

So if you- And if you want bonus episodes, bonus content, support us, help us do things like maybe do a tour, help us do more shit, then go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. It’s fun.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah! And hey!

KYLE GETZ

Hey!

MIKE JOHNSON

If we owe you stuff, tell us.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

If you’re a Gap Bridger and we haven’t had our little chat about what you want your episode to be… like, call me.

KYLE GETZ  

Yea- Call- Yeah. [both laughs] And, uh, check your Patreon messages, because we always hear people say like “Oh, I didn’t know there was a message function on Patreon.” Yeah, there is.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, there is, open that app.

KYLE GETZ  

Open that app. Do you want to talk about roller coasters?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s about roller coasters and- I was gonna talk about the history of roller coasters.

KYLE GETZ

No- Wait.

MIKE JOHNSON

And you said you’re gonna start with something.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] What?

So, guys, I just want you to know, if I shut down my Instagram do not call the cops. Don’t ever be a roller coaster! [Mike laughs at the clip] I got this dress as well. Never be a roller coaster!

MIKE JOHNSON

What? What? What did I j- What did I just watch? Okay-

KYLE GETZ  

You watched an avant-garde film, created and produced by Britney Spears. That was an Instagram video that Britney Spears posted at- like, four days ago, and I was watching it because I watched everything because I’m just, like, I’m fascinated and obsess-

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re you. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Because I’m me, as we all know. And then she screamed, “Don’t be a roller coaster!” She runs across the screen and I was like “How does she know we’re doing this episode this week?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I swear, we- Like, we’ve been doing episodes and then all of a sudden something will come up in the news about that topic, and like, it’s just- It’s just- Life wants us to do this podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. Or, we hired somebody that makes us have our shit together.

KYLE GETZ  

John Crawley hired us to do this!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well that’s true, yeah. Um, uh, okay. Okay. I have many questions, can I ask- can I ask them now?

KYLE GETZ

Sure. Yeah, sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

What the fuck?

KYLE GETZ  

Yes, correct. [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

One, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. Number two: do you realize that you had to turn the phone around and show me who was speaking for me to know it was Britney Spears-

KYLE GETZ

Absolutely

MIKE JOHNSON

-because of whatever fucked up cockamamie accent that was?

KYLE GETZ

Yes, I do know that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Has she had a recent head injury? Because there is a thing where, like, people will sometimes get hit in the head with a heavy object and then wake up with an accent or the ability to speak a language that they didn’t know that they could speak.

KYLE GETZ  

As we know from the Scream & Shout song-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

-she sometimes goes British.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

So there is history here.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

This is not a new thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, Madonna kind of did that too, a little bit, and maybe that’s like some kind of communicable disease that happens among pop stars. [laughs] Britishness.

KYLE GETZ  

Yes. I- [chuckles] I was thinking it was an homage. I think- I think Britney is, you know, just kind of channeling her Madonna, and-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Everyone, socially distance from your pop stars, because you might end up British. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Um, she also mentioned, she shut down her Instagram and people-

MIKE JOHNSON

Called the cops?

KYLE GETZ

-called the cops on her.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

She, uh- Apparently the media, not too long ago, reported that she was dead, and so she made her post that was like “I’m not dead.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And anyway, that entire video was a roller coaster ride if you really think about it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely. And- Okay. And then, number three…

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I assume she has lots of clothes. Nothing seemed particularly amazing about that dress, but, like, she seems very excited.

MA JOHNSON

She was very excited!

MIKE JOHNSON

I- Okay. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

You’re allowed to be excited about your new dress.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, I like it when people send me shit.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s fun.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah! Post Office Box 1988…5?

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] 19882, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ  

Seattle, Washington 98…109

MIKE JOHNSON

98109. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Send us a dress.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, postage required. Okay. I thought I liked roller coasters, until you subjected me to this video that we just watched.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] This ruined roller coasters for you?

MIKE JOHNSON

How do you feel about roller coasters?

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, um, I like ‘em!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

They’re fun! I have not been on- I cannot think of the last time I was on a roller coaster or at an amusement park, so it’s not something I like go and do, but I love roller coasters. They’re a blast.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I haven’t- I agree. I really enjoy amusement rides in general, and, um, especially when I was younger. Like, I loved going to the fair and like almost dying on those super dangerous carnie rides.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, um- [quietly] Can we say “carnie”?

KYLE GETZ  

I don’t know. That does feel like, vaguely, like-

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Racist?

KYLE GETZ

-offensive, but I’m not sure why. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, yeah. Uh, “amusement park operators” I guess? [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

But yeah, like, I used to love the Zipper, which is not a roller coaster, but I-

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know what that is.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s the one where, like, you’re in a car and it spins around but it also moves around a big thing that moves around.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, like the tea kettles? Not the kettle… teacups!

MIKE JOHNSON

Except, in the air. Not on the ground; up in the air.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

So you do lots of like- I don’t know, it feels like you’re gonna maybe vomit?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I have not vomited. Do you get motion sick?

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

They don’t make you feel ill or anything?

KYLE GETZ

No. Do you?

MIKE JOHNSON

No, I do- I do pretty great. I’m really fortunate that way. I can like read a book in a car, and I know a lot of people are probably like-

KYLE GETZ  

Me too. I didn’t know that was the thing people didn’t- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I did not know this topic was gay until…

MIKE JOHNSON

…John told us that?

KYLE GETZ

Until John told us that. And since then, I’ve brought it up a couple times to different people, and, like, it’s the weirdest thing. I think this is like one of the weirdest topics we’ve done, because like one in five of your gay friends will be, like, either- I’ve not met any- I’ve not said this to someone and then like “Oh yeah, I’m a big coasterhead” or whatever, but, like, people I bring this up to are like “Oh, I know a roller coaster gay,” or like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, every few people is like, “Oh, absolutely, it’s a gay thing.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And I had no idea about that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, mean neither. And we- We had- Just at dinner last night, we saw a couple of coaster gays on social media, who are hot.

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm. Mhm, mhm, there are some hot coaster gay- I would- I could- I could get into roller coasters for a hot guy, you know?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, I’d be fine faking it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Get railed on the rails?

KYLE GETZ

[both chuckle] Ride them rails.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, oh yeah, I’m gonna talk to you about the history of roller coasters. Basically, it’s Russia’s fault.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Just like- Just like everything else, but-

KYLE GETZ

Just like World War III.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, um- No- So, apparently, the origins of rollercoasters are usually traced back to 18th century Russia, and these ice slides that they made. Course, you know-

KYLE GETZ  

Haha, that’s the most Russian-sounding thing I’ve ever heard.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Like a human luge?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, s-

KYLE GETZ

I guess that’s just a luge.

MIKE JOHNSON

They would take hills of snow and they would add wooden support beams to them so that they didn’t kill anybody – mostly – and then they would sled or wheel carts down these snowbanks. So it was like advanced snow sledding, Russian style. Then it, of course, moved on from that to have mostly railroad tracks, and they would build the whole thing out of wood and not require the ice part. Those were all called “Russian mountains”, these hills of ice that they threw people off [Kyle chuckles] in a controlled way, which is important only because, it other languages, the word for rollercoaster is “Russian mountain”.

KYLE GETZ

Huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, like Spanish “la montaña rusa”. And, anyway- But then, the Russian term for roller coaster is “American mountain”, “американские горки”, [TN: Romanized, “amerikanskiye gorki”] so-

KYLE GETZ  

Huh. Why do they call it after us, when they did it?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Because, although it has its origins in Europe, Americans did the coaster thing fucking ballistic, huge-style.

KYLE GETZ  

They were like “We can build a taller thing,” because that’s like all we care about is like… can we make a bigger version of whatever?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep, exactly right. Exactly right. Apparently- So, Catherine the Great really liked these things and had one of these, like, snow slide things built at one of her palaces-

KYLE GETZ  

Believe it or not, I did not think Catherine the Great was gonna come up this episode!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, me neither! Did you know, she fuuucked.

KYLE GETZ

Really? [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes, yes.

KYLE GETZ

On the coaster?

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, I don’t know about that. Maybe.

KYLE GETZ

On the snow slide?

MIKE JOHNSON

Maybe. Maybe! I wouldn’t put it past her.

KYLE GETZ

She was sliding down that dick.

MIKE JOHNSON

But yeah, she’s like well-known for just like bangin’ her way across Europe, and, um-

KYLE GETZ

Wow, feminism!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. It’s actually- It’s really intense, to me. Her sex life was like, pretty great, and may or may not have been bisexual. That’s-

KYLE GETZ

Ohh!

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s disputed. Um, you know- But history has this way of filtering out all of the queer shit.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And uh, so are we remember is like the list of dudes that she fucked and then gave positions to in the government, [Kyle chuckles] but also that also may have included not just dudes.

KYLE GETZ

Huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, more on that mystery later, I think. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, Okay. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, so there’s also a influence from roller coaster- for roller coasters of, there was this mining company called the “Mauch Chunk Railroad” and they built a railway just to get coal out of a mine so that, you know, like, they put the coal in the cart and send it- send it on its way. They ran out of coal, so like, “What the fuck do we do now? We’ve got this like massive-ass railroad that we built,” so about a year after the coal mine closed, they started just like charging people money to ride the coal miner carts around, and it turned out that people fuckin’ loved it!

KYLE GETZ

That makes sense. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, that- It was- They were individually, like, driven by a brakeman who would like safely- You know, so people couldn’t just go as fast as they wanted to or whatever. And- But yeah, so it was very, very popular, and that popularity then led to “Like, let’s invest money and make these things ridiculous,” and that’s when you start seeing like loop de loops and a whole bunch of stuff. Coney Island had a bunch of attractions, and, you know, pushed the idea of rides and roller coasters into the American consciousness. About the same time, over in Europe though, and this is where- I told you, when we were planning for the episode, that I was gonna wildly speculate about the sexuality of some people. So first, Catherine the Great, but second, this guy named Joseph Oller, and uh, he built Les Montagnes Russes à Belleville. Uh, that’s my best French attempt, everyone. But it was a permanent roller coaster that was 200 meters long, and it was in the form of a double eight, and later they built onto it more-

KYLE GETZ

16.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and made four figure eight-shaped loops. But anyway, this dude, Joseph Oller- And I think I’m saying that right, because he was actually Spanish. Or, he was- He’s from Catalonia. But he was super into rollercoasters, built this giant-ass cool roller coaster in in Paris, but also, he, as far as I can tell, never married, died alone, and he- and this dude, Charles Zidler, also never married, died alone, are the ones that are opened the famous cabaret Moulin Rouge.

KYLE GETZ  

Ohhh, Moulin Rouge had to be started by a gay dude.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s- That’s the- This is my wild speculation, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. That’s not so wild, that’s- I think that’s just regular speculation at that point.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And our intense fascination with theater, especially if it’s kind of naked, was born. [Kyle laughs] Um, yeah. Yeah. So this- The dude that started Moulin Rouge also was super into roller coasters and built a really big famous one in Paris, and I’m, just, I’m calling it now: he’s super gay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Umm, let’s see… But yeah, like I said, Americans were the ones that really took it to the next level, but the Great Depression sort of stopped that. Like a lot of things – you know – the Great Depression killed the momentum, because people didn’t have the money to spend on amusement park rides, and there was just less disposable income.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And then it sort of came back. The Wikipedia article anyway, says 1972 is when like the modern era started, when The Racer opened – that’s the name of a roller coaster – opened at Kings Island Amusement Park in Ohio. So, all of those roller coasters were built out of wood, wood roller coasters, with like some support from other materials, but the whole history of roller coasters is primarily wooden, freestanding roller coasters. And uh- But Disneyland gets the credit for using steel. So, in 1959, they started- that’s when the Matterhorn started – the Matterhorn Bobsleds – and that was the first roller coaster that used a tubular steel track, which, that let you do things like cork screws and go in wacky weird directions, because wood can only bend so much and maintain its strength, but Disneyland is like this pioneer in making steel tracks that could do the more like crazy movements and at that higher velocity. And so, I don’t know. I don’t think of- When I think about roller coasters, I think of, like, Six Flags or whatever. I don’t really think of Disneyland, because of all of like the shit that’s on it. Like, technically, Pirates of the Caribbean… [TN: like “cuh-RIB-be-an] Caribbean?… [TN: like “care-ib-BEE-an”] Caribbean… [TN: Like “cuh-RIB-be-an” again] that ride is a is a roller coaster… sort of, right? Like, there’s a couple of drops to it. Anyway… I’m trying to- I’m trying to figure out, like, what the fuck- Like, how do you make the- What’s the difference between a ride and a roller coaster?

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, um- But Disneyland definitely has both. Like, Space Mountain is a roller coaster in the dark.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. But you’re right, I think of Disney as like, bigger- like, roller coasters are a thing that is available there, and there’s a bunch of other shit that they do. Uh, yeah, you’re right, I think of Six Flags, I think of that kind of amusement park.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. Well, Disney gets a lot of credit, I guess, for the technology behind the modern roller coaster era

KYLE GETZ

That makes sense.

MIKE JOHNSON

And utilizing steel. That’s mostly all I had. I just wanted to say that that Moulin Rouge dude is definitely a gay.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. [Mike laughs] Him and his roommate or whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. What do you got, Kyle? You have any gayta on rollercoasters? Is it a gay thing?

KYLE GETZ

No!

MIKE JOHNSON

No? Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Your turn.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great segment. Uh-

KYLE GETZ  

No. So, what I did is I, um- As I was, like, looking up stuff, there’s not a lot that I found that was like “Here is this explicitly gay thing about it,” but gay stuff kept showing up. So, as I was looking stuff up, I basically just wrote down things about it that people said of why it’s kind of gay, or quotes that people said in articles, like gay people writing about it or whatever. So I’m just gonna go through some of the reasons this is kind of gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Um, one thing that some people have said is that roller coasters are gay because of the double income, no kids thing that gays might have.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Then again, someone on Reddit said “Its a good theory but most [enthusiasts] start when they are young. Before they have … disposable income that people without kids dont have,” so it does- this does seem like, from what I’ve seen- I watched a 30 minute documentary on roller coasters.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, and it does seem like it’s a thing that starts when you’re a kid, that- You know, we talked- I mean, we talked about it too. Like, memories of going to, like- enjoying roller coasters and, as a kid, doing this, and then I think some people hold on to that and continue that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, sure.

KYLE GETZ

So yeah, I don’t- I agree with whoever this rando Reddit person is, that there’s more to it than just- You know, and having disposable income is helpful.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. I agree. Although, like, Disney has gotten so expensive.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm…

MIKE JOHNSON

I think that there- There are certain socioeconomic factors at play, right? Like-

KYLE GETZ

Absolutely.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I don’t think there’s any escaping that, but, um-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I also- Hopefully I’m not stealing your thunder. I think it’s because being a queer person is just so fucking difficult that, at least for the 90 seconds that you’re on a roller coaster, like, it’s hard to- it’s hard to have existential dread when you’re screaming. Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Yes! Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

And so, like, it just gets you out of your head for a little bit, and, like, you get to just be a adrenaline juiced-up mammal for a while, and not have to carry the weight that society puts on us for being queer people.

KYLE GETZ  

I think there’s absolutely something to that. I think- It’s almost like I’m working on mindfulness in therapy, like I’m working on like being in moments, reducing anxiety, not like focusing on here now, and that’s a way to- Like, you gotta be here. Like, as soon as that thing drops, like, you’re not thinking about what’s for dinner tonight, or, you know- you know, whatever legislation is happening, or what weird thing I’m gonna post on Instagram that’s not gonna get enough likes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Like, you know? It’s just like- Yeah, I think there’s absolutely something to that. Um-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Which, we would then see, I think, gays being attracted to other thrill-seeking-type-

KYLE GETZ

Drugs.

MIKE JOHNSON

-activities. And drugs, yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. That’s a thrill-seeking…

MIKE JOHNSON  

I don’t know why I want to talk about horror film gays, but like, Fucking Dan is not the only person who’s gay that is like all about the horror movies, and I wonder if there’s something about being scared or jumpscares that’s also in this like weird, soothing space.

KYLE GETZ  

Interesting. I didn’t think about it until you mentioned like horror films. Like, horror films make sense to me, of like… we’re more used to the horrors of life, [chuckles] so, like, I wonder if this is- I wonder if roller coasters have any kind of similarity. In watching the, um, the documentary- The documentary was made byyyy…. I fucking wrote this down, but I started going out of order… oh, by Australian daddy bear Malcolm Burt. There’s a documentary called “Signature Attraction” that he made, and there are a lot of people that are- It’s not a gay-specific- Like, he doesn’t mention- He does, in it, talk about, like, “I didn’t fit in” or “I was, like, a fat kid, and I was, like…” you know. So, he talked about things that are indirectly related to being gay. Um-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Can we- Can we- Can we talk about the phrase “Australian daddy bear”?

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I’m super into it.

KYLE GETZ

You’re into “Australian daddy bear”?

MIKE JOHNSON

And I wouldn’t think that that would be my thing, but now I want one.

KYLE GETZ  

I- [both laugh] We’re comin’ for ya, Australia. [Mike laughs] I mean, they have- They have some- They have wildlife that’ll kill ya. I wanna almost get murdered by an Australian daddy bear. That sounds fun. Um, why are we- What are we talking about? Okay, um-

MIKE JOHNSON

The documentary.

KYLE GETZ

The documentary, sure. Oh, they- [chuckles] There were there were a lot of- It was interesting to watch and just, like, you know, I would have never, except for this episode, watched anything about rollercoasters, and so- But there are also some people that were like- take it- It was just like “It parallels our lives, because what is life but a roller coa-” Or, I- They didn’t say that, but there was just a bunch of people making metaphors out of roller coasters, and I was like “Okay, we’re stretching a little bit, maybe.” [Mike chuckles] Okay, but maybe it’s true for them. Someone also mentioned, on an article on them.us by Steven Blum, [chuckles] there’s an overlap with the BDSM scene by saying, quote, “there’s an obvious parallel between strapping yourself into a coaster seat and strapping yourself into something else.”

MIKE JOHNSON

What?

KYLE GETZ

“obvious parallel”? I didn’t- I would- I don’t think that’s true, Steven Blum. I didn’t- I wouldn’t have made that parallel, myself.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Sometimes a cigar is just a dick. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I don’t- I don’t know if I, um- Also, someone on Reddit – again, like, none of this is like directly gay – someone on Reddit said “I went on a TPR” which is a theme park review trip “in 2011”- They have their own, like, lingo. Oh, and apparently “coaster”- I was talking to my cousin who apparently went on a date with a coaster gay and they use “coaster” as a verb.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

They had like their own lingo. They have a “coaster count” which is like your body count for coasters.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Sure. I wonder if there’s, like- Is there another- a sub count of that, of, like, your body count… on a coaster? Like how many people have you fucked on a roller coaster?

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Man, it’s so sad that mine is zero…

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, let’s fix that.

KYLE GETZ

…So far. We’re gonna go to Australia, we’re gonna pick up an Australian daddy bear, we’re gonna bring him to the U.S., we’re gonna fuck on a roller coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Ah, dreams.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I am-

MIKE JOHNSON  

And you said you had no plans for 2023. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] I know. New life goals. “I went on a [theme park review] trip in 2011 and I’d say about 40% of the guys were gay.” So that’s just one person posting that like- But again, that idea keeps coming up, of, like, disproportionately- people keep noticing disproportionately high number of gays being at these theme parks. What else?… On parkjourney.com, R.D. wrote an article and said it’s “the gayest hobby around”. This is actually kind of what you were saying. There is an American Coaster Enthusiasts, that’s an organization, so ACE, not asexual. But Tim Baldwin, the communications lead for ACE, said “One great thing about being on a roller coaster is there is no appropriate behavior.” “How many hobbies are there in which screaming is an appropriate response?” So-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. That’s, you know, what you were talking about. Back to Steven Blum on the them.us article, I wrote down, quote, “You see some folks on Grindr when you’re first entering the park, but eventually people put their phones away and just focus on having fun together.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

I could see there- What?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I just- Like, the idea of cruising at a theme park is just really interesting now.

KYLE GETZ  

Interest- Mike, you would- you show up in like a Denny’s and you’re on Grindr seeing who’s around. Like, you’re- Like, I would think that would be the first thing you would do when you walk into a theme park, is get on the apps.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, obvi.

KYLE GETZ

Ob- Yeah, so don’t act so surprised.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I just- Like, it never ceases to amaze me the places that gay dudes are having, and, like, I’m just totally oblivious to it I guess. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. I don’t- I don’t- Yeah. I like having sex on the bed.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mm.

KYLE GETZ

Or on the floor. Um- [Mike chuckles] This is not what we’re talking about. On Reddit, someone talked about – a straight user posted that – quote, “I used to be made fun of for being”… [Kyle laughs] …“‘gay for roller coasters’”.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Gay for roller coasters? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I just think that’s so funny. “I used to be made”- [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Check out the ass on that coaster? Mmm.

KYLE GETZ  

Damn, look at those curves. [Mike laughs] Kids are so dumb. “You’re so gay for roller coasters, dude!” What a dumb- Okay. [both laugh] I don’t know why I think that’s funny. I needed more sleep. Okay, “I used to be made fun of for being ‘gay for roller coasters’ or ‘that weird nerd guy’ or whatever. Meanwhile, gay people are probably used to being made fun of for being gay so they’re more willing to be super obsessive about what they like.” So-

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s interesting.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. That comment speaks to what we’ve said about a lot of other things. If you are- When you’re gay you already broke a norm, so you’re allowed to just be interested in what you’re interested in, and I think we’ve talked about this for, like, nerdy shit like D&D. Like, I don’t have to go through the like, “Oh, I’m, you know, weird, and I have to decide how much to pursue this,” or, like- You can just kind of be a nerd, because you’re already- you’re already gonna be made fun of and not fit in.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And so I wouldn’t have connected this to that same kind of theme or topic, of, like, you can just be obsessed with this even though people make fun of you, because you’re already gay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Is that why Comic-Con is so gay? There are a loooot of gays at Comic-Con, and events like it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I wonder if it’s a similar, like, “I’m already dealing with the gay thing. Like, I can do what I want. Here I go.” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, I- I think the same thing for the furry community. Like, again, furries, not specifically gay but, you know, we know that they are- that with data we know that they are overrepresented there. So, like, that- It’s a cool thing about being gay, like being able to be into what you’re into.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And kind of go with it. So-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Maybe that Australian daddy bear can be in a furry suit.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we can- After we’re done with the roller coaster we can go to Comic-Con.

KYLE GETZ  

You’re gonna get into furries- [both laugh] Wow, you just will do every single thing all at once. In Australian Daddy Bear’s documentary – I wrote down this quote because I really liked it – Professor Dana Anderson said “I know it’s not normal, and I know it’s not typical or common, and I think to an extent I’m probably still that smallish child who feels he needs to be doing more of what is common or expected and not feeling things as acutely, and that is part of my adulthood, but I am so enthralled by things like amusement parks, it’s hard to hide.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Hm. Hm!

KYLE GETZ

And the last thing I will say is, back to Reddit, which I just thought this was kind of beautiful, is someone said that roller coasters are “theatrically-inclined sort of escapism”.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ  

Which, it is- Like, I didn’t- I- Again, like, a lot of things I didn’t think about until I- Like, it is like a little bit theatrical, like a little bit like campy, a little bit like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

You know, when you go to theme parks it’s like- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Although, like- Yeah, like circus motifs and like, you know, bright lights, and flashy colors, and screaming.

KYLE GETZ  

People in costumes and screaming, yeah. [Mike chuckles] So, I don’t know. Again, like, this is why this was such a weird topic. None of that is explicitly gay, but it has gay overtones, and lots of gays involved in it, and then gays that like it. I really think- Like, people listening, like ask five of your gay friends and I bet you one of them will know a roller coaster gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. A coaster gay.

KYLE GETZ

A coaster gay!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Using it as an intransitive verb, I’m just not down with that. Like-

KYLE GETZ

Douche shot.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [Kyle chuckles] Do you wanna get together next weekend and coaster?

KYLE GETZ  

[speaking bro-ishly] Let’s coaster, dude!

MIKE JOHNSON

Barf. [Kyle laughs] Don’t do that.

KYLE GETZ

“Coaster”? I barely know ‘er.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, I forgot to mention that, I think, if people want one of the cool websites that I came across that had an excellent big history of roller coasters, it’s ultimaterollercoaster.com. They have a whoooole section.

KYLE GETZ  

You wanna read more on the history of coasters?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if they have any of this stuff that you’re talking about. I- Anyway… Um, it’s my turn, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

I wanna talk to you about… I don’t know how to say his name.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s my turn to not know how to say something.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Yaaay. Do it!

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh… I’m gonna say Julijonas… Urbonas- [TN: said “HOO-lee-oh-nas ER-bo-nas”]

KYLE GETZ

That’s… not a name.

MIKE JOHNSON

-who’s Lithuanian. He is – or, was – a PhD candidate at the Royal College of Art in London in 2010 when he designed the Euthanasia Coaster.

KYLE GETZ

Eughhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Are you familiar with this? Have you heard of this?

KYLE GETZ  

I’ve heard it, but I know n- I know- Oh, I think I’ve seen it, like, a design for something, but yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, it has one ridiculous peak at the beginning and then…  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6… 7 loops right after it. And- So it’s a steep, steep angled lift that takes you 1600 feet to the top. So that’s like, what, a quarter mile? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

And then, uh, it takes a few minutes to get up there, and then a 1600 foot drop that would take you up to 220 miles per hour- Oh, it’s never been built, by the way. So, like, this thing-

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay, this is a theoretical?

MIKE JOHNSON

This thing- Yeah, this doesn’t actually exist. And then it goes into seven inversions with a smaller diameter than the one before.

KYLE GETZ

Loop de loops? Is that what they’re called?

MIKE JOHNSON

And that’s how it gets up to the 10 g centrifugal force that would kill you. So, uh, there’s a reason like when test pilots get into that machine and they spin them around and then they pass out. Like, your brain blood pressure can only like stand so much before it- Like, it’s not great, and 10 gs will kill you.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

So- [chuckles] The design is hilarious. I think this is hilarious.

KYLE GETZ  

Sure, let’s bring some joy to the the Euthanasia Coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON  

After a sharp right-hand turn the train would enter a straight, where unloading of corpses could begin. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[gasps] Guhh, I didn’t think about the part after! Poor operators. Like, “Welp…”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Yep. Um-

KYLE GETZ  

I wonder if your face, like, is like gonna be stuck in a screaming- Like-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, God.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like- Well, I mean, I don’t think rigor mortis would have set in in just like 60 seconds or whatever, but-

KYLE GETZ  

Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

What?

KYLE GETZ

Let me have this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

If I take comfort in the idea of all the corpses have, like, yelling faces- [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh my god. Uh, so John Allen, who was the president of the Philadelphia Toboggan Company, said that he thought that the ultimate roller coaster was one that, quote, “sends out 24 people and they all come back dead,” and that’s what he decided to do this design. But this dude, Julijonas- I think it’s Julijonas. Julijonas, uh, that’s not only ridiculous thing that he’s designed. Also when I’ve seen- I’ve watched videos of this dude. He doesn’t seem not gay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay! [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

So more wild speculation! [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

This whole thing is just gonna be like vaguely gay, but we can’t put our finger on it, or in it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, he did some work with or for the CCCB, which is the Center of Contemporary Culture in Barcelona, but it’s in Spanish. Anyway, he also invented a thing called the “Cumspin”, and- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Whaaat? Nooo, I invented that first. I need to sue him.

MIKE JOHNSON

What is the cumspin for you, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ

[makes horrific mouth noises, with air going in and out of mouth]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, no! I didn’t want sound-

KYLE GETZ  

You just gurgle a little bit.

MIKE JOHNSON

I didn’t want sound effects! Oh, God. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] It spins around in my mouth. It’s like tasting a fine whiskey, you know? You wanna like really savor it. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Ugh… God.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] I hope my dad isn’t listening to this episode.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, God. Okay, so, here’s the description. December 11th of 2015, this posted. “Cumspin”-

KYLE GETZ

Spell “Cumspin”.

MIKE JOHNSON

C-U-M-S-P-I-N.

KYLE GETZ

No- Oh. Oh, really?!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, shut the fuck up! [Mike laughs] Okay! Okay. I was joking. Interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON  

“Cumspin is a proposal for an orgasm enhancing funfair machine.”

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Funfair machine…

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s, uh- “Based on the principle of a centrifuge, it exposes the love riders to variable gravitational forces.” There are “eight spherical capsules, [and] the lovers … control the centripetal force by changing the distance between the axis and the capsule. The farther from the axis, the greater the force … pushes them against the wall. Coordinating movements with [those] forces could enable controlled blood flow, which could heighten sensations. Directing the blood to the lower extremities would cause the sudden loss of oxygen to the brain accompanied by euphoria. The latter in tandem with orgasm creates a sensation beyond any definition of pleasure:”-

KYLE GETZ

You just described my kink.

MIKE JOHNSON

-“[a] [h]ypergravitational orgasm.” This whole thing is a “Choke me, daddy!” machine [Kyle laughs] without the choking, by using, like, the- Oh my god.

KYLE GETZ  

10 gs on my dick.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, the Australian bear daddy, you’re gonna have to take him on the Cumspin! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, this is- He probably knows about it. He’s more in it than I am.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, “Cumspin” spelled the correct way: C-U-M-

KYLE GETZ  

Wow. I thought this was, like, going to- Like, that’s a funny name, but no it really is about- It- That’s- It is specifically a sexual- [chuckles] This is the weirdest thing that has ever come up on this show.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love this guy. I just- I just think that he is sick, and twisted, and amazing, and, um- Yeah. That’s it. This whole segment was just so that I could talk about the Cumspin, which I-

KYLE GETZ  

Man, nothing- [Mike laughs] How could I follow that, Mike? Why did you do this to me? What more am I gonna talk about than the Cumspin for the rest of my life? [both laugh] This is all I wanna talk about, is the Cumspin. I guess I’ll

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, it’s-

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s problematic as a ride, because, like, it’s invented to make orgasms happen and be better. Like, can you imagine operating that ride? You gotta wash it out when they’re done, [Kyle laughs] like, after you- after you’ve spun the cum out of some people.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, what’s better, a dead body or cumstains? [Mike laughs] You know, I’d rather- I’d pick the cum any day.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Weirdest amusement park ever, [both laugh] designed by this dude.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, I guess I’m gonna keep talking. Boy- But I won’t- But my- You know my mind will be still on Cumspins.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. The roller coaster continues. We had corpses. That’s, you know, a down, and now here we go-

KYLE GETZ  

And then you gave me cum.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ride in a Cumspin. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Okay, [sighs] um, I’m gonna talk about a couple of the events associated with roller coasters.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

Apparently, uh, back to the them.us article by Steven Blum, they started the article by describing that Alaska Thunderfuck performed the song “Your Makeup Is Terrible” at-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Mhm. [doing an impression of Alaska Thunderfuck] Your makeup is terrible!

KYLE GETZ

You know the song?

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely!

KYLE GETZ

Wow, I didn’t- gayest of the week!

MIKE JOHNSON

I know, I knew a drag queen thing!

KYLE GETZ

Wow! I didn’t know the song.

[song clip of Your Makeup Is Terrible, by ALASKA THUNDERFUCK]

Your makeup is terrible! Your makeup is terrible! Your makeup is terrible! Your makeup is terrible, but I love you anyway.

KYLE GETZ  

We did, in preparation for this episode, listen to the Erika Jayne song “Roller Coaster”, which is not bad enough to be so bad it’s good, and it’s not good enough to be so bad it’s good. It’s bad, [Mike laughs] is what I’m saying. It’s so bad.

[song clip of ERIKA JAYNE singing Roller Coaster]

Take me on a- Take me on a- Take me on a roller coaster.

KYLE GETZ

Anyway, Alaska Thunderfuck. I like shitty music and this didn’t do it for me. [Mike laughs] Uh, okay, Alaska Thunderfuck performed at Out at the Mountain [TN: Out on the Mountain] at Six Flags Magic Mountain. That is a- apparently an event that Steven described it as “rowdier” than the Disney gay event.

MIKE JOHNSON

Gay Days?

KYLE GETZ

There’s- They have drag queens, they have alcohol, it goes into the night, and a big thing is it is an official event for Out at the Mountain.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, okay. Unlike Disney. The Gay Days is just kind of like under the radar, not really a thing but we make it a thing.

KYLE GETZ

Yep. Yep. Yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Any bar’s a gay bar if you bring enough friends, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ  

Yep, exactly. That’s exactly what we do. Which is- You know, it’s weird that Gay Days is not an official thing. I don’t- I can’t tell if it’s homophobic or not, because it seems like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Mm. Eh. That’s- That’s a sentence you usually know the answer to. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I guess when you’re asking “Well, I don’t know, I might be charged $35,000 for accusing Disney of being homophobic these days.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, this podcast not available in… Tennessee or wherever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, that law- That law, they’re actually trying to make it so that it does cross state lines.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

That, like, you could get sued in Florida court for- Yeah. Like, what you’re saying is part of the proposal.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Go ahead, please.

KYLE GETZ

Man I would-

MIKE JOHNSON

This is no longer the news.

KYLE GETZ  

This is no longer the news. [both laugh] Then why is the news theme song playing?

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole-

KYLE GETZ  

Um… [Mike laughs] Michael, focus.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Best episode ever.

KYLE GETZ

Michael Johnson, we’re focusing. Yeah, so Gay Days is not for Disney. That’s, you know, where all the gays show up at the park. But I- I don’t know if they do any kind of, like, event, or like this kind of thing for any group during regular park hours.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh yeah. Uh-huh.

KYLE GETZ

So it might actually be a blanket, like, thing across the board, not specific to like Gay Days.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Disney, howmever, does sell rainbow pride merchandise. They have special food on the menu, like, they will- They absolutely make their money off of it. That’s part of the annoying thing, is, like, it’s both not official and they’re gonna fuckin’ sell rainbow shit as homosexuals.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, sure. Great. There are a bunch of current and former Disney employees in the WOW Guild. I’m definitely gonna talk to them about this tomorrow.

KYLE GETZ  

Ohhh. Oh, I didn’t mention- So, the next Out at the Mountain, at Six Flags Magic Mountain, is this year at August 18th. The next Gay Days for Disney is September 22nd to 24th. And the last event is, ACE, the American Coaster Enthusiasts, have Coaster Con.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Coaster Con! [Kyle chuckles] …I- Why are you laughin’? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I just- I don’t know. I am hung over, and, just, everything is funny, and this is- “Coaster Con”, of course there’s a Coaster Con. Like, sure. But, um, it’s usually the third or fourth week in June.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh! That’s when Pride is!

KYLE GETZ  

That’s Pride! This is- Again, like, I keep saying it, like, it’s in the ballpark of gayness!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, it-

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Putting the “anus” in “gayness”. [both laugh] I don’t know, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ  

Um, uh, Cumspin. [Mike laughs] Okay, five to- It’s a five to seven day event of exc- They have exclusive coaster times. They do- [Mike snorts] What?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Nothing, I just- [laughs] I caught your weird sense of humor now.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, it’s just- All of this is so weird. It’s- This is- I support it, support you coaster gays, I support coaster… coaster files. Like-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Coaster lives matter? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Like, all of it is great, and it’s just weird to me, uh, and I support everyone doing it. They have a- [chuckles] I wrote “five to seven days of exclusive coaster times,” comma, and then wrote nothing else.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

I didn’t answer that-

MIKE JOHNSON

You did it. It’s fine.

KYLE GETZ

No, but- No, there’s more- They have, like… meetings, and events, and like they talk about it, and they like get together. They have, like- It’s like an entire- Like, they have far more stuff outside of even just riding roller coasters. So, the next one will be – there are two different locations – it’s June 18th to 23rd. One at Carowinds in Charlotte, North Carolina, and another one at Dollywood in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.

MIKE JOHNSON

God, I want to go to Dollywood so bad.

KYLE GETZ

You know all the gays that going to the Tennessee one in Dollywood.

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

She’s amazing.

KYLE GETZ

Also kind of gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And very gay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. [both chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, that’s the gayest thing. I know we just talked about cum for like 30 minutes, but this event at Dollywood is the gayest thing that we’ve said so far.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. That’s where we should set up the Cumspin, is-

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’ll take the Australian daddy bear to Dollywood. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

To Dollywood, yes. This is all coming together.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh goodness, Kyle, are you ready for this?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do we have Patreon content?

KYLE GETZ  

Um, I have something- Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah? Okay.

KYLE GETZ

I, um-

MIKE JOHNSON

Do you wanna tease it now? Or-

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Tease me.

KYLE GETZ

Deedle deedle deedle dee. That’s me playing with its nipples. Um- [both chuckle] Because I’m teasing it, yeah. Um, I’m gonna talk about masculine stereotypes of roller coasters, by way of Polly Pocket.

MIKE JOHNSON

I- I don’t know what that is, so-

KYLE GETZ

You’ll have to listen to the Patreon episode, Mike. I mean, segment.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m ready.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. This was an article on the ACE website that I read, so we’ll talk a little bit more about that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m gonna charge myself money to listen to it.

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm. Listen to it. It’s gonna be real good.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. [chuckles] Excellent. Well, okay, I have a game for you.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

The title of it is “Roller Coaster, or Happy Hole Toy?” [Kyle laughs] So, our friends over at Happy Hole Toys, I looked at their website and wrote down the names of some of the models of their dildos.

KYLE GETZ  

Boy, they owe us money.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep, I- That’s what Derek was saying too, when I was pitching the idea for this. He was like “We talk about them a lot for free.”

KYLE GETZ  

[both laugh] They got their money’s worth, which was 0 dollars, so, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, so, I’m gonna name some things and you’re gonna tell me if you think that this is a roller coaster or a dildo [both chuckle] from Happy Hole Toys, okay?

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Here we go. Number one: Goliath.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow… I’m gonna go Happy Hole toy, they got some big things there.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, that is at Six Flags Great America, in Gurnee, Illinois.

KYLE GETZ

Ugh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Number two: the Magister.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, since the first one was a roller coaster I’m gonna just guess this one is a Happy Hole toy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That is a Happy Hole toy, yeah. It comes in many sizes and comes in different hardnesses.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, different levels of firmness like a mattress?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, all of them do, actually.

KYLE GETZ

“What’s your sleep number for your dildo?”

MIKE JOHNSON

[both laugh] Uh, eight or nine, probably?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, Sasquatch.

KYLE GETZ

Sasquatch… That’s a- That’s a Happy Hole toy! They talked about it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Correct, it is a Happy Hole toy. It is also at Six Flags Great Escape, in Queensbury, New York. That wins at both.

KYLE GETZ  

It’s both?! Aw. Instead of saying that I got it wrong because I didn’t guess that, I’m gonna say I got it right and would have no matter what.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m with you.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Unless I guessed a weird third option.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, the Axol. A-X-O-L.

KYLE GETZ

That’s got to be a roller coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON

That is a Happy Hole toy.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

The line of dildos called the “Axol”.

KYLE GETZ

Well, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, Kingda Ka.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, roller coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON

That is at Six Flags Great Adventure, in New Jersey. The Steel Dragon 2000!

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, with a number at the end of it, I think that’s a Happy Hole toy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, that is at Nagashima Spa Land, in Japan.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep. That one is a roller coaster.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean… Happy Hole toys, love your names also, maybe- Like, go ahead and just look at roller coaster names and grab some of these. These are some great dildo names that- [Mike chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

The, uh, Magnum XL-200

KYLE GETZ  

If this is not a dildo, I will sit on… the Magnum XL, or whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Well, uh, it’s a very large roller coaster-

KYLE GETZ

What?!

MIKE JOHNSON

-in Cedar Point, in Sandusky, Ohio.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, no, [Mike laughs] this is the gayest part about roller coasters, is these names. That’s not a sex toy? Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, the Geo.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, because I have been- I’m gonna stick with, that’s a Happy Hole toy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That is indeed a Happy Hole toy.

KYLE GETZ  

These are- Like, they’re all opposite of what you would expect. Like, the Magnum is a roller coaster, the Goliath is a roller coaster, and the, like, FuckMeTron 2000 [Mike laughs] is like a roller coaster! I don’t-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, the last one: the Leviathan.

KYLE GETZ  

[sighs] I want- [Mike laughs] My instinct is that’s a Happy Hole toy, so I’m gonna say it’s a roller coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Correct!

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Okay!

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s a roller coaster at Canada’s Wonderland! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I’m glad that by the end of this game I caught on to how it works.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, I did not keep score. You won, in my heart.

KYLE GETZ  

Yaaaay!

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Ah, I liked those games.

KYLE GETZ

That- That was- That was weird. [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON  

I agree with you. Like, the fact that “Magnum XL-200” [laughs] is a coaster.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, did you just lie this entire time?

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, no. No, no, no. No.

KYLE GETZ

Uh… [both chuckle]

MIKE JOHNSON

Happy Hole Toys, everybody. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Happy Hole Toys, they’re local. Um-

MIKE JOHNSON

And very pretty.

KYLE GETZ

And very pretty.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

If that matters to you.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

Just random things that I came across or talked to people about, like there is a subreddit called coasterbros.

MIKE JOHNSON

Coasterbros?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, which is a gay- Um, there’s both-

MIKE JOHNSON  

I wonder what they think about the Cumspin. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Um, they- Like, on the description is like- it’s, you know, gay and roller coasters, and then they also have the little bear. So like, there’s something to bears and coasters too, maybe?

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s interesting.

KYLE GETZ

I- Yeah. Um, there is- There- We- Like you said, we found a few Instagram accounts of gay- coaster gays, but there’s one at themepark.gay, and- [Mike laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love it when shit is just on the nose.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like “Happy Hole Toys”, right? [both laugh] Like, tells you need to know.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Um, themepark.gay is a guy named Devin.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

Devin’s account.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hey, Devin!

KYLE GETZ

Hi, Devin! [both laugh] This episode is not only for John Crawley, it’s for Devin, I think- I decided.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Um, okay, what’s the- Um, I- Even after looking this up and talking about it, I still don’t- I do not know why this is gay, and it is.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. What do- Do you have like a- Do you have a final- Final roller coaster thoughts?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I think… It’s interesting because it’s, like, exciting and lazy at the same time, right? Like, all you gotta do is just sit there-

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and have fun.

KYLE GETZ  

This was actually in the documentary. They were like, not everyone can be a marathon runner, not everyone can climb a mountain, not everyone can do this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Or jump out of an airplane.

KYLE GETZ

Or jump- They actually mentioned that. Bungee- Like, they mentioned all of those things. Not everyone can do that stuff. So, this is a thrill that anyone can sit down and do this and you get this kind of thrill.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And there is- We didn’t mention, like- Oh, I did mention- Like, there is like a count. Like, you know, all the coaster folk have their, like, count of roller coasters they’ve ridden, and that’s like a kind of claim to fame. And so it’s, you know, effort and stuff to go do that, but yes, and you’re sitting down and everyone can- It’s very inclusive in that way. Everyone can sit down and a ride roller coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah! And I don’t think- I don’t know, maybe we just decided? You know what I mean? Like, I feel like there’s a lot of things in different kinds of culture, but gay culture as well, of… who fuckin’ knows why? It’s just arbitrary and it happened.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, why are fucking hankies tell you what kind of piss you’re into? [Kyle laughs] Like, it’s- But, like, we just decided that that’s the way that we were doing it, and so it happened.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So maybe we just- we just- A critical mass of gays got excited about roller coasters and it turned into a thing and snowballed.

KYLE GETZ

That’s- That’s true. Mmm.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] The Cumspin! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I just thought about the Cumspin again. That’s what- It shouldn’t be called “snowballing”, it should be called-

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

-“cumspinning”.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Oh, God.

KYLE GETZ  

Um, in spite of joking about it, I think it’s- I do imagine, like someone mentioned, like being made fun of for this, I do imagine that people might get made fun of and- or, like, “Why aren’t you growing up? This is a thing for kids.” And I think, especially what the last few years have taught me, is just don’t- just let people have fun and be happy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Like, if this is- If this is what they want to do and spend their time on- And it is a lot of fun, and, like, I like roller coasters. I wanna ride a roller coaster now… I want cum.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I- [both chuckle]

KYLE GETZ

In that order.

MIKE JOHNSON

Something that you just said, I’m super down with, which is the idea that, like, gay people do tend to suffer from arrested development. Like, our childhood, in a lot of ways, was taken away from us by trying to navigate the issues of just being a queer kid, and then all of society’s pressures and- and, uh, messages about your value and your worth. I think there are a lot of, like, quote unquote “childish things” that are attractive to gay people because of that arrested development, and, um, which was a good show but not what I’m talking about. [Kyle laughs] And I could see the- like roller coasters, theme parks, being oriented to kids as a form of entertainment, appealing to that part of, like, the broken inner child of a gay person.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Well, I mean, like, we kind of didn’t get a childhood because we got- we had to spend it with the added weight, and anxiety, and pressure, and bullying, and all of this added shit that made our childhoods not what we should have- what a child deserves, like, during that time, which is carefree lighthearted fun. And so, to, as an adult, be able to revisit some of that, now hopefully accepting yourself in a better place to be- and just kind of embrace both who you are and the things you like, there’s something kind of beautiful about revisiting some of those memories as an adult and be like “I missed this as a child. I missed a lot of fun enjoyable things, and I get to have fun. I get to- I get to embrace that inner child that didn’t get those things.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. I get to coaster if I want to!

KYLE GETZ

Uh, coaster if you want to. [Mike laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Coaster? I barely know ‘er.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] That’s- That sound means it’s the end of the episode.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Did we do it?

KYLE GETZ

Uh, yeah-

MIKE JOHNSON

This is- Our time has ended. Or, no-

KYLE GETZ

Oh. We have- I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, it’s time for us to part ways. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

What you said, “We have reached the conclusion of this being interesting,” or something. [both laugh] Whatever you said at that-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, did we do it?

KYLE GETZ  

Uh, I think we did as much as we could have for the topic. Like, again, like, I- Yeah. Because I don’t think there’s more out there that we just- I don’t know, maybe there’s a research study that I didn’t find or something, but, like, yes, I think we did it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. John, you paid for this. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

John, this is- this is what you came for. I hope you like it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, God. Do you want to take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break!

KYLE GETZ  

Wee!

MIKE JOHNSON

Cumspin! [both chuckle]

KYLE GETZ

If the Cumspin doesn’t have merch, [Mike laughs] we’re making Cumspin merch.

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, you ready?

KYLE GETZ  

I’m ready. Are you ready?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yes. So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ  

Cumspin! I mean, we’re back! Sorry.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[both laugh] We’re back. What are we gonna do, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, fuck! Sorry, my line. I’m- Okay. Um- You know where my brain’s at. I’m gonna- We’re- We- All of us are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ  

I am half here. Um, we’re on social media and you should follow us. Go to @gayishpodcast wherever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Our hotline – you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails – is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ

Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON

And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109. Um…

KYLE GETZ

Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON

Nope, Local Gay Bar Review real fast.

KYLE GETZ

Ooo!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, this time I’m gonna talk to you about the Lookout, which is in the Castro, in San Francisco.

KYLE GETZ  

There’s a place called The Lookout here in Seattle. It’s not a gay bar.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, it should be.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Any bar’s a gay bar if you bring enough friends, Kyle. Uh, the Lookout is a- it’s been there for a really long time. I’ve actually gone several times in the course of my 15 year gay history – 14 year gay history – and, um- but it’s unique in that it is – and I think that’s why they named it the Lookout – it is all upstairs and has like these big glass walls that make it like a monster view of the Castro, and the city below, and of what’s going on. And uh, yeah, the last time that I was there it was fun because I got to meet with the leadership of Outforce, which is Salesforce’s LGBT, um…

MA JOHNSON

Employee resource group?

MIKE JOHNSON

Employee resource group, thank you. ERG. And uh, it was just- It was really- It was really nice. It’s fun, mixed crowd, a little dark, and kind of cold when people forget to close the goddamn door. Which, it says “Close the goddamn door,” because it also cuts down the noise and it pisses off the neighbors. Anyway, I like it there. It’s fun. Uh, three and a half dildos.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow. Why does that feel mean to me? That rating seems low for a place you like.

MIKE JOHNSON

I dunno.

KYLE GETZ

Close the door, people. Let’s get another half dildo in there, if you close the fuckin’ door.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Some of it too, I think, might be the fact that like San Francisco is so goddamned expensive.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, maybe? I dunno.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Lookout, here in Seattle, is way cheaper.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it has a nice view. Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.

KYLE GETZ  

I’ll go. Um, my gayest is- I kind of have, like, flopped them a little bit. My gayest is-

MIKE JOHNSON

Hah.

KYLE GETZ

Right? [chuckles] I played darts, but I- This was one- I often- As I’ve mentioned, like, I joke about sports but I know the rules to football, I know how to play football, I know the rules all these things. I played darts, did not know the rules, so it felt- You know, like, anytime you’re like “What are we doing? I don’t know. What are the rules? How do we do this?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, did not know the rules at all.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well, and darts is one of those things that there’s like so many different variations of it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, it’s not just “What are the rules of darts?”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. All I know is I got zero points.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, that seems bad.

KYLE GETZ

That was ba- [Mike laughs] I don’t know the rules, but I think that was bad. [laughs] This is not golf. Um, my straightest is: I went to Into the Woods, the musical. I had never seen it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

So this was my very first- I had never seen a production, the movie… I have seen Anna Kendrick doing interviews about it. That’s… pretty gay. But my straightest is: it was my very first time seeing it.

MIKE JOHNSON

What did you think?

KYLE GETZ

It was fine.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah?

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] I just- It’s, like- Act 1 is laying a loooooot of groundwork. It’s like- After act 1 I was like “I don’t think I like this,” and it was like all a setup for act two, so, like- Um- And yeah, I don’t know. It kind of, like, almost gets there, but not really, for me. Like the Erika Jayne song, Roller Coaster. [both chuckle] I’m just gonna compare everything, say if I like it better or worse the Erika Jayne song, Roller Coaster.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. [chuckles] Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

“How was your day, Kyle?” “A little bit better than the Erika Jayne song, Roller Coaster?” [Mike laughs] What about you, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, the straightest thing about me this week was going home to eastern Washington and playing piano in a country western band for the night.

KYLE GETZ

Ooo, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

It was- Yeah. I also realized that, like, there’s a lot of songs that I just do not know, but it’s okay because all country music is the same. [both laugh] So I can just play a different song and it all works out.

KYLE GETZ  

People don’t know you’re playing a different song in the background.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. [laughs] Because they’re all three chords, and easy, and- Anyway, whatever. Um, and then the gayest thing about me this week: at that gig my brother Murph showed up and he said, quote, “Michael, you’re looking particularly gay tonight,” [both laugh] to which I curtsied. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Were you- What were you wearing?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Basically my frat outfit from that episode the week before.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. I had mentioned it was kind of gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Jeans, and a button-up, and a jacket over it. I thought it was, you know… It was like gay cowboy vibes or something. [Kyle chuckles] Anyway, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. A listener’s Gayest & Straightest, this one comes to us from Discord, and, uh, Aigieda, who is in our WOW Guild as well. Hey, girl, hey.

KYLE GETZ

Hi.

MIKE JOHNSON

He just went to Florida and- uh, well, for Disney World stuff.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh. Oh. Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That’s on-theme, did you do it in preparation for this episode?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Uh, the straightest thing about him: “Straightest: Seeing so many children at Disney world and thinking I’d like to be Dad with my future “partner” [or] husband”.

KYLE GETZ

Aww.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Gayest: Breeding a married man wearing a Disney Daddy shirt in the bathroom after riding in front of him at the Safari ride pointing out all the animals for his kids and […] wife taking pictures.” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

[wheezes] Whaaaat? Wow. You took him on a- for Cumspin.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah you did. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Good for you. Um, thank you to John Crawley for suggesting this episode. I absolutely never would have thought about or picked this topic, and I’m really glad- I just feel like now I know something that I didn’t. I’m on it, a little bit. I know something I didn’t know before.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, and when we had the meeting with him we were like “Should we just have the- Should the episode about theme parks and do a roller coaster section?” and then we took a chance, like “Nah, we’ll just do roller coasters. We’ll just lean in,” and it-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. It was pretty interesting and gay, so…

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, John. Also, thank you to the following Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you all for your support.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Thank you for your support. That is it! This has been Gayish! From the Chris Khachatourians Cumspin, I’m Mike Johnson. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] I’m Cumspin McGee. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.

MIKE JOHNSON

Bye.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

KYLE GETZ

Augh! [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s-

KYLE GETZ

I’m sorry, I’m getting my- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

You may have just sustained the first podcasting injury of the year. [both chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

No, I just- I light- Okay. I have accidentally lightly touched my coffee mug into my mic, and I thought-

MIKE JOHNSON  

We have L&I insurance but it only covers Derek. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Oh no! I shouldn’t L or I! [chuckles] Okay.

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]

Gayish: 321 Queer Jews (w/ Rachael Fried)

Rachael Fried, Executive Director of JQY (Jewish Queer Youth), joins us to talk about the challenges of being Jewish in LGBTQ+ spaces, older singles, actions vs. identity, Leviticus, Yeshiva University, the rise in anti-Semitism.

In this episode: News- 1:59 || Main Topic (Queer Jews)- 13:26 || Guest (Rachael Fried)-19:27 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:05:26

On the weekly bonus Patreon segment, we talk with Rachael about her love life, her upcoming wedding, and whether we can say “Jews.” Get lots of great perks and support the show by joining at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

To learn more about JQY:

FULL TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ  

The podcast that has hope for a better future, but only because I have cookies at home.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh. Oh. Oh. Carbs are the hope of the future for tomorrow.

KYLE GETZ  

Carbs are our children of the future. [both laugh] Wait…

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…

KYLE GETZ

Today…

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m so fancy.

KYLE GETZ

Why are you so fancy, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I’m basically like in business casual today.

KYLE GETZ  

I know. Yeah. You came prepared. You’re official.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. We’re gonna talk about jews.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, you’re not gonna expl- You’re just saying that you’re dressed in fancy clothes, and that’s it?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was at a fraternity conference this weekend, and I am- I’m very much dressed in my like, frat attire, so if you went to a frat daddy looks like, this is it. This is-

KYLE GETZ  

You can’t. if you want to see what it looks like, you can’t. We have no way of you doing that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Enjoy.

KYLE GETZ

There you go. [both laugh] But you can hear the suit in your voice.

MIKE JOHNSON

Can you?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How were your make out parties this weekend?

MIKE JOHNSON

I didn’t make out, at all.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay, so they were good. That’s- Hey, everyone, Mike had a lot of fun with his make out and tickle parties. I get it. It’s fine. I expected that to show up in your Gayest & Straightest, not up top.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, it will. We’re gonna talk about Jews.

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna talk about Jews!

MIKE JOHNSON

MIKE JOHNSON

But first…

KYLE GETZ

But first…

MIKE JOHNSON

I assume we’re talking about Jews; we could be talking about Judaism. I think we’re going to talk to our guest about the appropriateness of using that word, and we’ll see what happens.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But- But yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, we’re gonna have a guest on to talk about being queer and Jewish, so, excited to talk to her about that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, absolutely. Um, but first…

KYLE GETZ

But first…

MIKE JOHNSON

Here’s the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the first. This is a clusterfuck that I just don’t know how to untangle.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so- Okay…

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

A dude and this chick are, like, they have a daughter.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Then they divorce, and he comes out, and gets remarried, this time to a dude. The girl is now 10. The ex-wife and his daughter moved from California to the state of Arizona, and the mom enrolled her in a religious school without his knowledge or consent. He and his husband moved to Arizona to be closer to her, and the two of them apparently – he and his husband – were chased off campus and told that they were unwelcome because of their sexual orientation.

KYLE GETZ

Whoaah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They were- They say that they were threatened. We’re gonna go over what happened and we can, like, weigh in on whether that constitutes a threat or not. But, Don Williams and Jose Ortega told The Advocate that Heart Cry, a Christian academy in Queen Creek, informed them-

KYLE GETZ  

“Heart Cry”?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow, that’s powerful!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, “Heart Cry”?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. “Jesus died and my heart cried, and then I named a school after it.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, I need to have a good heart cry. Or, I would if I had a heart. I think I’m dead inside now.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, but Pastor Billy VanCamp, in late January, when they arrived at the school to pick up his daughter, VanCamp told them they were not welcome on school property and said parents send their children here to keep them safe from gay people.

KYLE GETZ

Fuck you.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Ortega asked VanCamp if he was threatening him. VanCamp allegedly responded “Try me.”

KYLE GETZ  

What a- What a dumb- “Try me, bro.” Shut the fuck up. I fucking hate this guy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I mean… yeah. He’s an evil, fuckface, dickbag, asshole.

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. “Try me.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I’ll start using that in my, like, day-to-day conversations, when it’s unwarranted. “How are you doing?” “Try me!”

MIKE JOHNSON  

According to the East Valley Tribune, in 2011, VanCamp – the head dickbag – saw that there was a photo of a lesbian couple in the Queen Creek High School yearbook. He threatened to remove his kids from the school because they were exposing them to objectionable materials. That didn’t go anywhere, so he said “Fine, fuck it!” and started his own school.

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. [Mike laughs] I mean, he’s an asshole, but he’s got resolve.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah, exactly.

KYLE GETZ

You know? If I actually did something about half of my beliefs, I would be a much better person.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Mhm. [laughs] Yeah. Any other- It just- It’s just messy. It’s really messy. There’re all of these-

KYLE GETZ  

How is it- That doesn’t seem very messy to me; that seems pretty straightforward. It just seems like people were- A Christian school is shitty to gays, just like they do.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Right. That’s true, and what do you do from- What do you do from there, right? Like, I assume that this guy has no, like, legal ability to change what school his daughter goes to. A lot of this, um- He’s worried about how this is impacting his daughter’s feelings about her father.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

He said, quote, “[I’m] fine with [my] ex-wife’s religion, but [not] that she found a school that is entirely against [me] and [my] husband.” “I honestly believe she did that on purpose.”

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, he believes that his daughter is being poisoned against him and his husband by his ex-wife’s influence, and apparently his ex-mother-in-law said that they’re “living in sin” and it’s been “confusing” for the daughter. Quote, “To her, it’s confusing knowing that she loves us and I’m her father, yet there’s a negative [influence] from the other side.” So, the ex-wife has primary custody, gets to choose where the daughter goes to school, and it’s just a- It’s a big ole messy situation. That’s the mess. The backbone of the story, of just like, yeah, bigots were bigots to people that don’t need to be bigoted against, that’s true.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s what happened. Anyway, news the second?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. You look like a newscaster right now. I’m having a very- [Mike laughs] That’s very odd that you’re dressed- that you have a suit jacket on while we record.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sorry.

KYLE GETZ

No, it’s- I mean, do what you want. It’s just- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I do what I want, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ  

Sure, but you can’t blame me for, one time out of 320 episodes you wear a suit jacket, that I’m a little thrown off.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah! Be as thrown off as you want to be, ‘cause this is happening.

KYLE GETZ  

I do- [both laugh] I’m in it. It’s happen- It’s already happened.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m gonna- I don’t know if this is gonna come through. I’m gonna play it. That is a video of a woman at the Central Park Zoo screaming at Sam Smith, who is walking by casually. She’s saying, quote, “You belong in hell. Sam Smith belongs in hell, you demonic, twisted, sick bastard. Leave the kids alone, you sick fucker. Sam Smith as a pedophile … You sick motherfucker, Sam Smith. You’re evil.”

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. Sam Smith is not doing jack shit to your kids! If you want your shitty kids to not watch Sam Smith, turn off the fucking TV! You are raising your kids, I am not raising your kids, Sam Smith isn’t raising your kids! You- If you want to treat your shitty kids like little shitty kids, turn off the TV and take them to your dumb private university that treats people like shit! That’s not my problem! You are not my problem, you can’t fucking yell at people!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. [chuckles] I mean, you can if you have a podcast.

KYLE GETZ

You can yell at people on your own podcast, on your explicit feed. That’s where you can yell at people! Get a fuckin’ podcast, lady! You can yell whatever shit you want it Sam Smith!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. I guess- I guess, technically, she can yell at him. It’s a free country.

KYLE GETZ

“them”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Them. She can yell at them because it’s a free country, and-

KYLE GETZ  

No. No, you can’t. You can’t yell at people- You can’t yell obscenities at people whenever you want. That’s not- That’s, like, harassment or something.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Should be. I don’t know if it is. Anyway, at the end of the clip, there’s someone else – not the loud woman – but yells out and calls him- them a groomer, which, there’s that word. “Woke groomer” is like, again, you know, these meaningless things that have just reached the level of, just, “If I don’t like it, I call it that.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I heard Republican lawmakers saying this word. The problem is, it does mean something, or it has in the past, and it’s useful to understand how pedophiles attack their victims and treat their victims. It’s and very useful, important way to understand real pedophilia.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. And to water this word down, with just anyone you don’t like, makes it- enables actual pedophiles because then we don’t understand what it really means.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s really frustrating that the people that think they care about pedophiles are not actually targeting or doing anything to help actual pedophiles and child molesters. They’re just lobbing insults at people they don’t like, who are doing nothing but walking through the zoo.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ  

Man, I’m angry today.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Good. I’m glad. We did it. [Kyle laughs] Uh, news the last.

KYLE GETZ  

I didn’t let you- I didn’t let you tell much. Is that the- I just kind of yelled for the entire news story.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s it. I think- The other part of it though – and we’ve talked about it off and on – is just, I think shit is real bad right now. And I thought it was bad during the Trump administration, but it has gotten worse, not better, in the conduct of people: the way that they feel empowered and emboldened to just be absolutely fucking ridiculous to our community.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it is really, really scary, and I think- I believe in my heart that I’m preparing, in my heart, for it to get worse before it gets better.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think that this is an extinction burst. They know that we have won. They’re gonna go out kicking and screaming.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And kicking and screaming they are.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Totally.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, news the last. This is adorable; a Girl Scout-

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Oh, thank you. Thank you. I need this.

MIKE JOHNSON

A Girl Scout from Glendale, California was trying to figure out how to sell a shitload of Girl Scout cookies, because it’s Girl Scout Cookie time, and went to WeHo, and sold about 100 boxes [laughs] in a weekend. Um, it says “per weekend,” so she’s gone more than once, but her name is Siena. Quote, “Siena is participating in a cookie sale to earn money to support Girl Scouts and we thought what better place to sell cookies than in [WeHo].” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

“We were here last weekend. A guy named Adam said he ate through all his boxes. He came back this weekend and said, ‘are you going to pay for my weight watchers?’ I told him that I’m a hypnotherapist, so if he ever wants to cut back on the sweets, to call me,” [Kyle chuckles] um, that’s Siena’s mom. [chuckles] This is her aunt, I think, anyway- said, quote, “I was dreading selling Girl Scout cookies, but the gays have made it so much fun that now I’m happy to drive 40 mins to sell cookies … We were so excited that drag queen Billy [Francesca] bought the last 4 boxes of Lemon-ups, so mom could go home and relax with a glass of wine.” It’s interesting too because people are trying to- they’re being hysterical, like we just said, about children being exposed to LGBTQ+ culture, including drag queens, but apparently Siena is down.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, little girl gives zero fucks. Um, during her-

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. And we’re the ones that’s actually helping and supporting kids. [chuckles] Like, that’s…

MIKE JOHNSON

She did say, apparently, her first weekend in WeHo, quote, “[Mom,] why are there so many naked people?” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Mmm… Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um-

KYLE GETZ

“Well, honey, when two men love each other they have to show it by wearing jockstraps.”

KYLE GETZ

Yep.

MIKE JOHNSON  

There’s some adorable pictures of her selling cookies and- to the gays, that I don’t think are going to actually eat them.

KYLE GETZ  

[both laugh] Well that’s part of, like- We- It’s interesting, we- Our episode- Our bonus episode for this month is chocolate, and we talked about the, like, is it a gay stereotype or not? I had the same thing, like- I think it’s one of those, like, overdone or overstated things. Like, you see all the Instagays that don’t eat any kind of food, or, like, are jacked, and it’s like- the rest of us are like “No, like, cookies are good…”

MIKE JOHNSON

Cookies are gooood.

KYLE GETZ

“And I’m gonna eat ‘em, and I’m not gonna have a six pack, but like, that’s life, you know?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Deal with it. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s the news!

KYLE GETZ  

Um, If you want to get access to our bonus episode about chocolate you can join our Patreon. I want to thank the following new Patreon member, so spotlight on you, Uldarico… Sarmiento? The r and the n seem-

MIKE JOHNSON

Nailed it.

KYLE GETZ

I was like, “Why is this m keep going?” and it’s because there was an r before it. Uldarico Sarmiento, probably, maybe. I got close on that one.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I think you- Yes. It’s great. If that’s not your name, change it to that.

KYLE GETZ  

If that’s not your name, you’re wrong, [Mike laughs] and this podcast has now made it official. If you want me to fuck up your name maybe – or get it right, who knows? – go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. We do bonus segments every week, bonus episodes every month, bonus Momsplainings every month, we give away merch and merch discounts, and lots of stuff available, all there. Check out the tiers, and benefits, and joys of being a Patreon member.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Do it. You wanna talk about Jews?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, let’s do it!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s do it. So I have a friend who’s a fraternity brother – a gay fraternity brother – who listens to the show, who’s Jewish, and we had a little bit of a chat this weekend, when I was in Chicago for the fraternity conference, and he said something that I thought was really, really interesting. He said Orthodox Jews hate him more than they hate me, meaning Mike Johnson, because- Scott’s his name. My friend Scott-

KYLE GETZ

Hi, Scott.

MIKE JOHNSON

-is Jewish and gay, and Orthodox Jews hate that, but they don’t care about me because I’m not Jewish.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm…

MIKE JOHNSON

So it’s like that whole thing about, like, “What’s worse than hatred? Indifference.” They give zero fucks about me because I’m not Jewish, but they hate his guts because he’s Jewish and doing it wrong, and I think that’s really interesting.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Orthodox is, um- I had to- Like, I do not understand the denominations. I barely understand denominations of Christianity, much less of Judaism, so-

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s okay, Christians don’t either. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

So Orthodox is one of the most conservative- Interestingly, Conservative Judaism is- they have multiple opinions about like, whether they accept or don’t. Like, that’s one that is more kind of- Individual things are- groups are allowed to decide. Reform is the largest denomination within North America and they’re down with gays.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

So I-

MIKE JOHNSON

“Down with” is maybe vague. Like-

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, okay! Uh, in 1977- This is not what I was gonna talk about, but I have this written down. 1977, the Reform’s principle body adopted a resolution calling for an end to discrimination against gays and lesbians. In 2003, they updated to include trans and bisexual people. In 2015, the Reform movement issued a resolution expressing support for trans rights. Months later, the conservative movement, which it’s interesting, like, Orthodox is more conservative than conservative Judaism, so that’s weird- Anyway, months later, in 2015, months after Reform did it, Conservative movement issued a similar resolution in support of trans rights. So they have really tangible- Their leadership has tangible evidence that they support gays all the way back to the 70s, so-

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s cool.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, this is the stuff I’m reading about, but how does it feel in the community? Is- You know, how widespread? That’s what we’re gonna talk about with Rachael, who is the executive director of the Jewish Queer Youth.

MIKE JOHNSON  

JQY!

KYLE GETZ

JQY!

MIKE JOHNSON

We keep seeing it as “JQY” in places, which-

KYLE GETZ

jqyouth.org.

MIKE JOHNSON

I can’t figure out which is harder to say: Jewish queer youth, or JQY.

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] We love a mouthful. [Mike laughs] Um, the thing I actually wanted to talk about-

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay great!

KYLE GETZ

I’m so glad you, like- Rarely do you have a question that I have- can like, give you some dates and answers on. You-

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m gonna trust but verify. We’re gonna- We’re gonna-

KYLE GETZ  

Mike, I read- [Mike laughs] No, why don’t you believe me? Well, I don’t believe your news stories.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. You shouldn’t.

KYLE GETZ

Yes, I should! [Mike laughs] I should trust you to be able to read the news!

MIKE JOHNSON

Eh, mm-mm. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Okay, that’s- This seems like a bigger issue [Mike laughs] we need to explore at a different point in time. Um, Pew’s 2014-

MIKE JOHNSON

Pew pew!

KYLE GETZ

…Great. Uh, [chuckles] U.S. Religious Landscape Study: they surveyed people to ask them about their religion and their political social beliefs about shit. So, for Christians- Again, this is the background. I’m not Christian, but like, I grew up around Christians so that’s what I know of, and they’re, like, the ones that are fucking attacking our community in the US, so like, that’s-

MIKE JOHNSON

Boy howdy, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, 44% of Christians either favor or strongly favor, same sex marriage.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

48%- This is back in 2014, so that’s the most- you know, their latest survey. Uh, 48% oppose or strongly oppose.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That seems like a lot, but okay.

KYLE GETZ

That’s a lot, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the world has gotten – or U.S. has gotten – less religious and more accepting, so hopefully that’s moved in the right direction since then, but-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, in 2015 was Obergefell, and that’s after that, and we know that Obergefell impacted acceptance of gay marriage after it came into effect.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. So that was 44% of Christians favor, strongly favor.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh-huh.

KYLE GETZ

77% of Jews favor or strongly favor same sex marriage.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay!

KYLE GETZ

And 18% oppose or strongly oppose.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

So the- In my mind, like, I just put all religion into a big category of religion-

MIKE JOHNSON

And they all suck? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah- I mean, I put religion in this big category of, like, I don’t believe in any of it and I think it is often used to attack our communities. I was surprised at the- how different the support is, in this survey of Jews versus Christians.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. That’s awesome!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know- I didn’t expect that, because maybe I have the same sort of guilt by association of being a religion, but like, it’s interesting.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

It also matches my like, personal experience. Like, we don’t have a lot of Jewish people in in Seattle, and I don’t have a lot of Jewish friends, but I do have a lot of fraternity brothers and acquaintances that – you know – I’ve had contact with over the years, and they all seem pretty chill about most things, so…

KYLE GETZ  

Like, do you have Christian friends that are against it? Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, mostly from high school because of where I grew up.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I’m- I’m- I dunno. I’m friends with people I shouldn’t be, just out of like historical reasons or something.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Huh. Well, that’s at least some of the foundational kind of info that I thought was useful to understand. But we’re gonna talk more with our guest, Rachael, in… well, for you all, in mere moments.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. We’re gonna take a break, and when we get back we’re gonna talk to Rachael Fried. You wanna take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Break!

KYLE GETZ

Break.

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back! We’re here with Rachael Fried, who is the executive director of Jewish Queer Youth. Rachel, hi! Welcome.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Super stoked that you’re here.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Um, where do we wanna start? You are the executive director of Jewish Queer Youth. Can you tell us a little bit about what Jewish Queer Youth is and what their mission is?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, I would love to. Our official name is JQY, which stands for Jewish Queer Youth, like you said. Our mission is that we support LGBTQ youth, with a focus on those who come from Orthodox, Chasidic, and Sephardi/Mizrahi Jewish homes. We’re a mental health organization, so everything that we do comes from the lens of just making sure that each individual who comes to JQY is physically and emotionally healthy, and well, and can live their best lives. We have no agenda as to whether people stay part of their communities or leave their communities. Some people come to JQY because they love the Jewish upbringing, and community, and culture that they’re a part of, and want to stay part of it, and some people come because they hate it and don’t want anything to do with it, and, basically, JQY is a place for all those people. So, we have a drop in center for teens, in New York we have a bunch of online virtual programming, we have a warmline that anyone can call to speak with a social worker at any time, and a bunch of other things. I’ll say that the reason we focus on those specific communities that I said – Orthodox, Chasidic, and Sephardi/Mizrahi – is because those are the most rejecting- most likely to be rejecting of LGBTQ individuals, and therefore need the most support, and also they have more sort of cultural competencies that are needed in order to work with them. So, they often don’t feel as understood going to a general queer space or even like a Jewish queer space.

KYLE GETZ  

There’s a lot that you mentioned that I wanted to ask about, but one big thing is: you mentioned that some – especially Orthodox – Jewish people don’t feel accepted or understood in LGBT communities. I’m curious, what would you want LGBT communities to know? What’s kind of missing from LGBT communities that makes it so they’re not understood?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. I think- Well, I think there’s sort of cultural competencies. It depends on what community we’re talking about, but especially people who come from more ultra-Orthodox communities, there’s a whole different language, even. You know, people will have Yiddish as their first language. Many places don’t have access to internet. Sometimes even just the way that people dress, you know, when they when they show up to an event or to a space that’s not a Jewish space, and especially to a space that is a queer space, a lot of times people will sort of look like they don’t fit in there and feel like they don’t fit in. I think what’s really interesting is that Orthodoxy, and in general traditional Judaism, can be very, very gendered. And so, there’s a lot of unlearning that somebody has to do when they come out and they grew up in a certain community. There are certain things where- You know, every queer person, and probably every person in general, has to unlearn a bunch of things that they learned from when they were younger, and, you know, question them, and as they get older figure out “Okay, what are the things that I believe in, versus the things I was taught I must believe or have to be true, and maybe they’re not really true?”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Is this our BetterHelp ad, Kyle? [all chuckle] We advertise for BetterHelp sometimes.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah Everyone needs some therapy.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, always. Big- I’m a big fan of therapy. Uh, yeah. So, I think that there’s- There’s a ton of unlearning that has to be done. So, people come to JQY and they’ve never heard of pronouns before, and they feel like they are in the wrong body, or they feel like they are attracted to someone that is the same gender as them, and they thought they were the only person in the world who felt that way until they come to JQY, and then there’s a room of people that all thought they were the only ones like them. So, even like little cultural things like that, of just understanding that not everybody knows what a pronoun is, or has any of the language to talk about queer things in a non-offensive way but not actually trying to be offensive, I think those kinds of things really play a big part. And then there’s also just understanding the community that they come from. So, I think what is important to know is that it’s easy to assume, based on how people look, that they are a certain way, and even in the most open minded space, I think- I think, especially in queer spaces, that there is a lot of sort of negative feelings towards religion or towards religious-looking people, which is an understandable thing because religion has been used against queer people for a very long time in really harmful ways. And also, there are people who look like they come from a very harmful religion, and maybe that person would even be a person who would use their religion against you, but really they’re also a queer person and you just wouldn’t know it unless you spoke to them.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

You mean, queer people judge people based on how they look? How dare you! [all chuckle] There’s no way that’s true.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, if they didn’t we wouldn’t have a show, so, you know? [Mike and Kyle chuckle]

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

No, we- I mean, these are some of the things we talk about. Sometimes you come out and you are- You know, we say we’re accepting and loving but you get a lot of judgment based on what you look like, if you don’t fit into certain things that we do, like, there’s a whole second layer of judgment and-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Your body type, your gender presentation, your skin color, your- I mean, there’s lots of- But I can’t imagine being in- like, what I think of a Chasidic Jew looks like, going and rolling into an average like cis white gay bar. That- I can’t imagine that going well, like…

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. [chuckles] Right, exactly. Yeah. I think- Yeah. And I also think that it’s important to remember that just because somebody comes out doesn’t mean that they have all the knowledge, and history, and understanding of what it means to be a queer person. So- We talk about this a lot of JQY because most people who come to JQY have come from Orthodox school or Jewish- they have a huge amount of Jewish knowledge of, you know, all of the texts, and the history, and the culture, and all of the stories that come with it. And then, when somebody comes out, queerness might be just as much a part of their identity as their Jewishness is, and yet they have no context for the history, or the culture, or the language, and all of those things. I think it’s something that- I kinda- I have this dream of like, building a crash course in queer history, specifically for populations that have no idea, like wouldn’t know the name Harvey Milk.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, that’s super cool. I mean, to a certain extent, the Jewish tradition is millennia – right? – of well-documented, written down shit, that we just- We don’t- We don’t have that for gays, our history has been largely invisible or erased for-

RACHAEL FRIED  

I know, we gotta get on that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, absolutely.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. You mentioned the- your understanding that people’s assumptions about religion, seeing someone who looks religious, they can break a lot of judgments. I think, for me personally, because of growing up in Texas, because of growing up in the U.S., a lot of my assumptions and what I- the judgments I’m bringing are based on Christianity. So, Christianity is also- I think that’s very fair, given the Christian population are the ones attacking the LGBT community. They’re the ones that are a majority in the U.S. and have more of the power. So, I’m curious, what kinds of things would you want someone like me, who’s viewing this from a Christian lens, like what kind of things would you want me to know about that, to kind of separate out Judaism from that kind of just big religion bucket?

RACHAEL FRIED  

One of the things that’s really fascinating to me about Judaism is that so much of it is cultural and about sort of like the social parts of the religion. So, there are many times where certain things will be- it will be, um- somebody will say, “This- Being queer is against Torah values.” Torah is the Hebrew word for the Old Testament. And the truth is that like, actually, it doesn’t really say that in there, in the Torah, and it doesn’t really have any- Like, there was one line- there’s two lines in there, and they apply to a really small percentage of the LGBTQ+ community, and it’s much more about the culture and the social parts of Judaism than it is about the actual text and what’s written, even though Judaism is a very textual-based religion. So I think that part is super fascinating and worth discussing that it’s mostly a social thing, or like a- There’s a lot of fears about how the community is going to view you or your family, and how this is gonna impact other parts of the community, and it’s not as much about the individual person doing something that is, like, a sin.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

There’s a ton of concern around dating in the Jewish world, and anything that’s- This is kind of like Fiddler on the Roof-esque, [Mike and Kyle chuckle] if you’ve seen that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sunrise, Sunset?

RACHAEL FRIED

But anything that- Right, exactly. Anything that somebody has in a family that’s, like, relatively taboo, affects the other siblings, because when two people get married their families also come together, and there’s a lot of concern about, “Well, if there’s a gay kid in the family…” or queer, or trans, or nonbinary kid, and they’re out and the parents are accepting of it, or they’re out and the parents are not accepting, regardl- like, it doesn’t matter. The fact that that person has a sibling who is out means that they will have a harder time finding a match for themself-

MIKE JOHNSON

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

-or that a parent will have a hard time finding a match for that other sibling. So I think those kinds of things matter actually more than what, like, the religion officially says.

KYLE GETZ  

Interesting. That seems like a- such a great, positive thing. The idea of “Your family is really meaningful,” bringing families together, like, that idea is great, but then when you’re queer it’s like, that’s another added layer of pressure and potential for rejection. It seems like back and go both ways, then.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, totally. It’s like, in Orthodoxy specifically, the sort of ideal is get married in the whatever, quote unquote, “normal” man and woman get married, have many kids, and that’s like the way to thrive in an Orthodox community. And as people get older, if they’re not married, they become what’s known as “older singles”, and older singles have just- it’s just more complicated in the community. They don’t have as a high status. Nope, really says it out loud, but it’s kind of a known thing that if somebody who’s 20 years old and married is more a part of the community than somebody who’s 40 and single, and I think that that’s true for straight people specifically. When we’re talking about queer people, there’s sort of more acceptance within Orthodoxy of people who are… I’m gonna say, specifically gay and single, and there’s kind of like, “Okay, we can, like, tolerate them here, we can even accept-“ you know, I don’t know if “celebrate,” but “We can accept them here,” and as that person gets closer to getting married, if they want to having a family, they then sort of become farther away from the community, which is the opposite interact- the opposite of the way that it goes for straight people. Because then it’s like, we can’t really ignore it as much anymore. When you’re by yourself we can just say, “Okay, you’re just, like, a person who has all your own struggles and whatever else, you know, all your own things to deal with,” and once you’re partnered it becomes more complicated for queer people specifically.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I saw things that discussed kind of separating out the feeling – like, the same-sex attraction – versus the action, and that those two can be viewed very differently. Is that- Was that part of this separation here?

RACHAEL FRIED  

I think so, yeah. I think- Jewish law talks a lot about actions and behaviors specifically, and not at all about identity. So, it doesn’t matter if you feel like- if you identify as a kind of person, like, Jewish law doesn’t care about that at all, it cares more about “Okay, did you give charity? Do you speak badly about other people? Do you cheat others in business interactions?” All these things are, like, actual commandments in the Torah, things that you have to do that are kind to other people, but nobody cares if you “feel” like you’re a kind person or if you identify as that, and I think that the same thing is true of queerness. Like, there are specific laws, um, and there is like Leviticus 18:22, that’s the famous sentence that says-

MIKE JOHNSON

Clobber verse, yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah, the classic sentence about a man not lying with another man. There’s also a sentence about men not wearing women’s clothing, and then there’s another one about, like, not changing your body, right? So those last two sort of apply to trans and nonbinary conversations, but- So- And those three things are very specific to the actions that people do, and not about identities. So, as we know, a person can be trans-identifying and not change anything about their bodies or dress in any different way, and it’s their identity, it doesn’t have anything necessarily to do with their expression. I think the same thing is true of gay identity – or any sexual orientation – where… There is no word really for identity in the Jewish law, it’s just like, “Do you do this thing, or you don’t do this thing?” and so I think, like, this sentence specifically doesn’t talk about women, it doesn’t talk about people who are asexual- Like, there are so many different identities that are part of our community that are not at all mentioned, and even if there is an action that’s associated with an identity it’s not- it doesn’t necessarily apply, or it does apply and also there are tons of rules about sex for straight people that nobody checks in on them about, [Mike and Kyle chuckle] and yet they’re still like fully part of the community in every way possible. So I think that- Yeah, it is interesting, the identity versus what I would call like “description” or “behavior”.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. It’s interesting that- I think of that in Christianity as people using certain lines from the Bible and being like, “No, this is wrong,” and then it’s like… okay, how many other things are you taking literally to that degree? Like, I think queer people get treated unfairly with some of those verses, and it sounds like you’re saying there’s a similar thing going on, like some of these verses may be used unfairly and disproportionately for queer people, and they may not use other verses in a similar, literal manner.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, yeah, and I think even beyond that. Like, I, a cis women who- Like, I’m not included in that Leviticus sentence, and I’m treated as if I am, and that makes me really mad because then it’s like, I might as well have been in there. But the fact that you treat me like I am, it’s like this type of erasure that really is quite offensive. And yeah, I think- I think that it- Yes, totally what you’re saying.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, the whole Judeo-Christian world seems super interested in, like, penises and what they’re doing, and that’s like- [chuckles] that’s the focus, for whatever reason. You mentioned being a cis woman, can you talk a little bit about your background, your identity, where you come from, how you ended up at JQY?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, totally. Yeah. So I grew up in Fairfield, Connecticut in a tiny Orthodox community that actually doesn’t exist anymore, but-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Wait, hold on. Wait. It doesn’t- The town doesn’t exist anymore?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Sorry, the town exists. The Orthodox community there does not exist anymore.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, okay.

RACHAEL FRIED

Apologies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, no worries. [Mike and Rachael chuckle]

RACHAEL FRIED

So, yeah, I went to like a tiny, private Jewish day school. There were like 10 kids in my grade.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah. For high school, I went to Central/Yeshiva University High School for Girls which is in Queens, New York, so I boarded at somebody’s house in Queens to go there. In general, I am very much a part of the Yeshiva University world. So, Yeshiva University is like- is the flagship Modern Orthodox institution in the U.S. I also went to college there. It’s kind of like Brigham Young is to the Mormon community, as YU is to the Orthodox Jewish community. So, I went to actually YU for 12 years, from high school all the way through grad school. I studied in Israel for a year and a half after high school, and basically was really a part of this, like, Modern Orthodox world in – I would say – like the New York area.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

RACHAEL FRIED

The first time that I realized that I was probably gay was when I was in my second year in Israel and my teacher- somebody asked my teacher “Rabbi, what do we do when somebody’s gay?” and in that moment I kind of knew that that question applied to me more than it did to other people in the room, but I didn’t fully- wasn’t like a- wasn’t at like, a conscious level yet fully, but I kind of knew, deep down. And the rabbi’s answer was – and I’ll use the Hebrew word for us, but he said – “We have rachmones on them,” which means like, “We pity them,” and I decided in that moment, like, “That’s not me. I’m never gonna be that pitied person,” and so I kind of just, for many, many years was like “That isn’t- I’m not part of that group, that pitied group,” and so for many years I kind of just brushed it under the rug, which obviously didn’t work super well. And then, you know, sort of fast forward to my college years, towards the end of my time at Stern College, which is the Yeshiva University High School up- Sorry, Yeshiva University Stern College for Women. I sort of could no longer- I could no longer, like, keep this that part of me under the rug anymore, and so I sort of came out to somebody, and then it was, like, terrifying, and then it was- It was at a time where most people that I knew had- didn’t know any gay people specifically. There weren’t like, queer characters on TV like there are now, so there weren’t even like fake- Maybe there was Will and Grace at the time, but there- Or maybe, you know, Ross’s ex-wife from Friends, but there weren’t- and she was kind of this like, weird side character that- I think that people just didn’t know how to respond, and it was not their fault, but they didn’t know how to respond, and also it crushed me every time. I also- I was the president of Student Council, so I was like, super involved in community on campus, and also had this feeling of, you know, if I actually told these people who I really was then they would not accept me, or like I wouldn’t be able to be this person in the community. So, I tried really hard to not be gay. I like- I went on what’s called “shidduch dates” which is like being- it’s kind of like blind dating, like a friend will match you, or, a friend or a someone who’s sort of like professionally is a matchmaker, will match you up with somebody of the opposite gender, and you’ll go on dates with them, and after a few dates you have to sort of decide if you want to be more serious and sort of get rid of the matchmaker part of the conversation. So I went on a bunch of dates with many different men, all of whom were – or, most of whom were – really lovely people. They fit all of the criteria that I had on my piece of paper, of like, “I want a boy who is…” I don’t know, X, Y, and Z, whatever was on my list, [Mike laughs] and they would check off all the boxes and be- and they were lovely people, and I would come back and just like, really hate myself after because I knew that it was something that was like, quote unquote, “wrong with me” and not them, and it wasn’t that I just like, wasn’t meeting the right person, it was something else. So I really struggled for a long time. My coming out process was years and years long, it was not one of those- I was not one of those people where I like realized I was gay and then within a few weeks told everybody and was out. Like, I was like- I was out to one person, and then I went back into the closet, and then I came out to this person… And so, I got involved in JQY actually originally as a participant. So, JQY used to be focused much more on young adults, and it was sort of like a peer-led support group once a month in the JCC in Manhattan. And so I went to a support group, and found that I was like one of two cis women in the room- one of two non-cis-men in the room, right? So, it was like 40 cis dudes, and me and one other person, and I was just like “It can’t be the case that I mustered up the courage to come to this place that is both queer and Orthodox, and I still feel like it’s not a place for me, or like I don’t belong here.” And so I got involved pretty quickly as a volunteer, and I started what was at the time called JQY Women’s* Programming, “Woman’s*” with an asterisk and a whole sentence explaining what that meant. And then I kind of just- Like, my role snowballed very much, very quickly. I’m a graphic designer and an artist at heart, so I was like “Alright, this website looks like it’s from the 90s, so we got to do- We’ve got to redo the website, and the logo, and- Okay, we need to make this look more official.” And so, that’s kind of how I got involved, like first a participant, and then a volunteer, and then just a really fancy volunteer, and then I was like “I’m gonna make this my job.” So, I did freelance graphic design on the side to pay my rent, but I really worked hard to make it so that JQY was an organization that really deserved to be- it deserved to be bigger. The community needed more support than it was getting, and so that’s sort of how I got involved. I was never officially hired, I kind of just took it. [all chuckle] And um- And yeah, now we’re- Our budget is $1.5 million dollars, we have seven full time staff, and still growing rapidly.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow, that’s amazing. That’s- I mean, we talked about the layers of like… you come out, and then you still might not be accepted by the queer community, and then you even went to the next step to be involved in a queer Jewish community, and you’re like “Wait, I still-“ Like, that must- That seem- That feels frustrating to me even hearing that, that you, like, you didn’t-

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

How did you create your space? And then- Now you’re the executive director, so what you’re doing is working. How did you create your own space?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. I mean, I always thought of it as, like, me creating the resources that I didn’t get to have when I was younger but needed anyway, and me sort of being the role model that I needed to have, that I didn’t really see anybody like me when I was younger and I really needed to. So that’s kind of the way that I looked at it. The other side of that, like, I could have looked, and sometimes I do feel bad, where it’s like, “I wish I had that,” and it’s annoying to me that I didn’t have somebody before me who did this instead of me. And also, it’s really cool that people get to have this now, and I only got to be this person because there were people before me who made the space so that I could then make this space. So I- I always think about, you know, sort of the generation- the giants whose shoulders we stand on – right? – and the- Like, I’m not the founder of JQY. I consider myself a builder, but not the founder. But my colleague, whose name is Mordechai Levovitz, he founded- he started JQY in 2001, so the first JQY meeting, and it’s only because he started JQY, which was then mostly cis men, that I got to step in and say, “Okay, well, you did this but I’m gonna take it further,” and, you know, people- hopefully people – and people really are doing this – come after me and after the other people who come after me, and say like “Okay, now that you did this, I’m going to champion X, Y and Z” because it’s sort of like almost a privilege to be able to have this conversation, because the people before me set it up so that I could do that. I think about this a lot. I don’t know if you’re gonna appreciate this analogy or not, and it’s maybe a little controversial, but I think about this in terms of corporate pride. So, when I was growing up in New York, in like… New York- When I went to college in New York there were no- like, during Pride Month there were no rainbows everywhere, it was just like a regular month and sort of like watched more and more rainbows pop up every June, and now my office is in Times Square, and when I go into Times Square every June there’s like rainbows everywhere and I kind of love it. And I’m like, this is amazing that there are all these businesses – you know – that are putting up their flags of support, and whatever else they’re doing. And then there’s the people who say, like, “They’re using our celebration in order to, you know, to profit on us, and they don’t really mean it,” and I kind of feel like… you’re lucky that you get to say that, because you didn’t have the rainbows- because it’s- to you it’s obvious that there would be rainbows, and now you can fight against it, whereas, for me, I kind of just like love that there were rainbows and didn’t even really care why. So I think- I don’t know if it’s a perfect analogy, but I think about it a lot in that in that way, and I still- I appreciate when businesses do much more than just put a rainbow in their window, and I also love seeing rainbows everywhere in June.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Yeah, I definitely get that. And also, I think the, like, you know- Yeah, what is the root underlying goal? Is it our community? You know, we know that they’re there to make money, so I think what’s the most important is people like you working in organizations. Like, the goal, the root goal, is to support Jewish queer youth. Like, that- You don’t have any deeper- You know, it’s not about money, it’s about the actual support. So I think those foundational kind of groups are so important.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, thank you. Yeah. It’s a difficult- You know, we don’t charge any money to any of our participants. I think, um- We have a full time psychologist who does free sessions with queer Jewish youth, and we just- You know, most of our participants are not out to their parents, and so even if they have health insurance, or even if their parents- their parents could be the wealthiest people in the world, and it won’t matter because they don’t have access to any of those funds, or any access to transportation to sneak out of their house to come to our programming. So, a lot of organizations sort of fundraise through like the parents of their participants, or communities that- and we just don’t have that. So it’s um, definitely- I forgot exactly how we got here, but anyways, it’s noteworthy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, but I’m super interested: where does all that money come from? Like, somebody’s bankrolling this. What does that- What does that look like?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Somebody is, yeah. We- There are a few different foundations that we get funding from. So, specifically, there are Jewish institutions and funders that fund most of our budget, I would say. We also have many community members, who are alumni of JQY, who contribute as they can. Sometimes it’s more, sometimes less. But it could be- You know, we have people who give $3 a month to JQY, and a ton of our budget comes from many, many people giving very small amounts of money, which is really- I think it’s a cool thing that we have that. But it’s also interesting, like, it wasn’t always popular even for the more liberal foundations or funders to fund queer initiatives, in the Jewish world, I think because the donors tend to be people who are older and more traditional, and so even, like, five or six years ago, it was kind of taboo to be supporting an organization like JQY, and, you know, as time goes on now, it’s less and less controversial. And in fact there are there are a lot of different studies that show that COVID had a very negative impact on the mental health of queer youth specifically, and there’s actually a Jewish community COVID impact study that says that that also applies to Jewish youth, which is not surprising that, you know, these statistics apply in all different kinds of communities. So there’s now this kind of movement of like “Okay, we know that this population is struggling more than others,” and so there’s actually more of a proactive push now to fund places like JQY, which I’m- I’m not grateful that COVID had such a harsh impact on this population, and I am grateful that it enabled us to get more support- more funding to be able to support more people.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, on the other side of the coin, there seems to be this big push, especially in not real protection but people thinking they’re protecting young people. Like, young queer people seem to be really a source of, unfortunately, debate and attack in the U.S. I’m curious: do you get any- And you’re working with people that are particularly anti-LGBT. Like, do you get any pushback, or challenges, or people… like, because you’re working with youth?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, totally.

KYLE GETZ  

And what does that look like, then? How does that come through to you?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, there’s a lot of complicated parts to that. I will say, our target age range is 13 to 23 so some of our participants are minors, so that’s its own complicated, uh- just really complicated space. And in New York City there are laws that protect queer minors. They are allowed- You are allowed to treat minors, in New York City, if they would feel unsafe coming out- uh, talking to a parent about whatever that thing is, and there are a few things that fall under that category, but queerness is one of them, in New York City. That kind of thing is different in every state, so we’re actually working with lawyers to, you know, make official policies, and that’s a- it’s a pretty complicated thing. There’s also… I believe it’s the LGBT Center in New York, that has sort of like an open door policy. Like “We are here, and our doors are open, and if you-” you know, “However you get here, we don’t ask, but we’re just here when you do come,” so that, I think, is also sort of like a loophole. But yeah, there is a lot of conversation around “Well, these people are really young,” “How do you know?” “You’re, uh- You’re poisoning their minds. You’re making them this way and influencing them.”

MIKE JOHNSON

“Groomers!” [chuckles]

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah, yeah. All that. It’s particularly noteworthy- I don’t know if you’re following this, but there’s a big lawsuit going on right now with Yeshiva University versus many of the queer students at Yeshiva University.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Didn’t they just, like, shut down all student organizations just…?

RACHAEL FRIED  

They did, yeah. There’s a whole… whole thing going on with it. Right, the students, they sued for discrimination because they weren’t allowed to have a club, and the students won in the first court and the second court in New York, and now YU just appeal to the third court. And if the students win in the third court, which the assumption is that they will, it then goes to the Supreme Court of the United States. So there’s like a big- It’s a big topic of conversation now in the Orthodox community, more than it has been before, because YU has really- I guess this is the- This is the hill they’re willing to die on, apparently, much more than I had thought it would be. And um, I think it’s brought out interesting things in the Orthodox community. There are a lot of people, who probably wouldn’t call themselves allies, but are just kind of like “Why doesn’t YU just let them have their pizza? Like, they’re just trying to gather and have like a book club and a movie night with pizza,”-type of thing, and it’s sort of bringing out a little- People that maybe wouldn’t have thought about this issue as much beforehand are now sort of forced to think about it in a different way, and some people, who probably never would have supported the queer youth at Yeshiva University, are kind of just like, “Why should- Why would this be the thing that they bring to SCOTUS? It seems like, really dramatic.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. It’s super interesting that this is the hill that they will die on, I think is fascinating. But I imagine there’s got to be- The world is changing so quickly, there’s got to be a lot of sort of existential dread in communities that are, you know, not on the same path as everybody else. We talk about all the time, like, the right wing in this country is freaking out because they know that the world is changing, and it makes them uncomfortable.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, I think it’s really threatening to groups that value certain- or not even value- that are like so used to certain traditional things. And in Orthodoxy, as I said before, everything is so gendered. So there are laws about like, men cannot touch women that they’re not married or related to, and the whole system is threatened once you have somebody who presents in a more masculine way but identifies as a woman, and who are they allowed to touch versus not touch? Or like, the rules are about attraction, and so if you’re not attracted to the gender that you’re not supposed to touch, doesn’t matter if you touch them? Like, there’s all kinds of things. There’s separate seating in prayer spaces, and just a lot of things that are threatened, I think, by acknowledging that LGBTQ individuals are… real, [all chuckle] and like can be celebrated and wonderful people with happy things in their lives. I think that really threatens the system much more than people are willing to admit.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other big thing- There seems to be growing both anti-trans and anti-gender non-conforming kind of pushback and antisemitism that seems to be connected. Like, you see these at, you know, drag race protests. There are also people who are, like, neo-Nazis. These two things seem to be happening, at least to me, in tandem, and I’m curious what you see on your side with the kids that are affected or just with the organization.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. There is a rise in queerphobia and antisemitism in the U.S. right now, and so we’re super aware of that at JQY and are constantly figuring out ways to be safe and secure, and also make sure that we are the most welcoming place possible to people who need us, so that- It’s a really complicated line to balance. Like, how do we make somebody feel like so welcome when they arrive, and also have security at the same time to keep people safe? And so- And what does that look like? And how- And so that’s definitely part of the conversation now. There is definitely a rise in antisemitism on college campuses, which is a big point of um- a big conversation topic at JQY. And I think that- What’s really interesting, and not to get so political here- And I will- I’ll also say, JQY is- We have no- We always say that support is not contingent upon belief, so we take no political stances on things and we really just support everybody in whatever beliefs they have. There’s that Jewish concept called “Eilu v’Eilu”, which means “both these and those”, and it means that there can be simultaneous, conflicting truths that are true at the same time, and that’s kind of like our philosophy that we live by. So, without taking any political stances – I’m getting too into this – Israel is a really hot topic in the- on college campuses, and, I also would say, in the queer community specifically. So this definitely- It comes up a lot. There is- The best example I can give is um, in New York every year – it’s usually at the end of May – there is a Celebrate Israel Parade, which is like the gathering place for Orthodox institutions. It’s like, you know, all the entire I think Fifth Avenue is closed off, and is a parade that has floats and music, and when I was growing up it was like, I was excited to go to the parade, because it was everybody that I knew from camp and every school ever went to, and it was basically like a big reunion day, and that was the- that was the reason I was excited to go, not because I had any feeling about Israel necessarily at the time, or if I did that was totally secondary. So, there was a time where queer groups were not allowed to march in the Israel Parade, which was like 10 years ago, not that long ago, and JQY was instrumental in getting queer groups to be able to march in the parade – right? – with a banner that says “The LGBTQ Community”, and many people found out about JQY, and then ended up using our resources, because they saw us at the Israel parade specifically. So it’s a really, really good advertising opportunity, because it’s where the entire Orthodox community is on that one Sunday towards the summer. And we- So, we march in that parade. We tell- We have a, you know, “This is where you can meet us if you want to march with us.” We also tell people, “This is where you can go if you would like to safely protest the parade,” and you can go there and be part of JQY, you can be in the parade and part of JQY, and all of those things are, you know, equally celebrated and supported. And um, also, in the group that that protests the parade, there are some right-wing Jewish protesters who have super homophobic and transphobic signs that are really, really harmful and just really negative, and a few years ago the- there is a group that is an anti-Zionist group that is called JVP, which stands for Jewish Voices for Peace, who infiltrated our group specifically, because they were protesting the fact that there was a queer group marching in Israel parade, because queer people should be- because of all the reason- Like, they didn’t protest the parade in general, they protested specifically the JQY group in the parade. And they, you know, they marched with us, pretending that they were part of the group, and then they, at some point, took off their shirts and had – you know, underneath it – had their own shirts on, and formed a human chain, and got arrested in front of our kids, and it was a whole big to-do, and also really terrifying.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

And it was this interesting- Like, we’re protested by both the left and the right in the same parade…

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

Which is really fascinating. Like, it just is like- And it’s like, there’s a different expectation of us because we’re queer and Jewish, and we also weren’t- Like, so we weren’t allowed to be in the parade, and when we finally were allowed to be in the parade then it’s a protest of like “How could you be in this parade?” So there’s all kinds of- We just have it from all sides, I would say. And I think- I’d like to think that if everybody is mad at us that means we’re doing something right. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] But it’s- Yeah, it’s definitely complicated.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow. I- That’s- They went undercover. Like, that is some deep planning undercover shit. That’s terrify- That sounds so scary!

RACHAEL FRIED  

It really is, yeah. I was, uh- Yeah. A lot of our kids ended up, like, running, and it was- it was a really, um- Yeah, it was quite scary. And yes, it was obviously thought through and planned. Also, we’re a youth group, which is just, like… target someone else who’s not as vulnerable.

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

That’s really what it was more about, for me.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

Like, pick on somebody that’s your own age, or- Also, marching down this- If you can imagine, like, it’s the epitome of coming out to the entire community. Like, marching, wearing a rainbow on your shirt through 1000s of people who you went- who were part of your synagogue, and your camp, and your school, and your elementary school… it’s just, like, it’s already so courageous for somebody to even just put on that shirt and walk down the street, and then to be protested was so, um- So- It was just like, really terrible. And then there’s the fact that it’s a big Jewish gathering, so the amount of security, because it’s a target in and of itself to have a huge parade full of 1000s of Jewish people in one area in New York City together… So there’s a lot of, um- a lot of- just a lot of targets.

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

And then- Sorry, just to add one more thing to that, there’s also a whole big thing about having a Jewish star on a pride flag, because the Jewish star looks too much like a flag of Israel. Which, there- Yes, there is a Jewish star on the Israeli flag, and also it is a star that represents the religion and not necessarily country. This is like-

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

-again, getting a little political. But there is a lot of talk about banning the Jewish star from Pride parades and from Pride gatherings, and that is also problematic in a whole different way.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Huh.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Any last words of wisdom for us? Things that people should know?

RACHAEL FRIED  

I will just say… I think it’s important to note – I just wanna, you know, bring this home again – that there are many denominations of Judaism that are more accepting than the ones that I’m- that we talked about today. And, and, it’s also- You know, people will assume that JQY is so niche, and say “How could it be possible that you have an organization that works specifically with queer youth from these specific communities?” and it’s actually not that niche when you look at the numbers. So, I think it’s really important to be aware that there are 1000s of Orthodox queer youth in- just in New York City, let alone the entire U.S. and the entire world, and I’m sure that there are- You know, interestingly, our youth can relate to many other queer youth of faith-based communities. And so, I think that these are people that we need to be thinking about much more than we are, and that it is- I believe that it is my responsibility and our responsibility as a community to be looking for those who are most vulnerable, who have really no voice and are falling through the cracks, and make sure that those people are supported. So, I’ll leave it at that, but just how important it is and how- I actually think that the more niche something is the more important it is, and the more likely that those people are being overlooked.

KYLE GETZ  

And- Well then I’ll also ask: if there is an Orthodox Jewish person who’s queer listening, like, what do you want them to know? What do you want these youth to know?

RACHAEL FRIED  

The main thing is just that you’re not alone. Like, I thought I was the only one like me, and so many people who come to JQY  think that they were the only ones like them in the whole world, and there is a whole community and it’s an awesome community, and a community that you can be proud to be part of, and that will welcome you with open arms when you’re ready. So, just to keep that in mind and know that.

KYLE GETZ

I love that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love that too. So, did we do it?

KYLE GETZ  

We did- We did some stuff!

MIKE JOHNSON  

We did some stuff!

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! No- I mean- I think we need to, like- These need to be ongoing, like, conversations and things, that I will now know and bring into future discussions whenever, you know, Judaism or, you know, things come up in the news, or what have you, so, you know, I think it was a great step, and I learned a lot, so…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah! Awesome! So, should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break.

KYLE GETZ

Break!

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

KYLE GETZ

Let’s do it.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ  

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, Rachael Fried, where can people find out more about you, about JQY? Tell us all the things.

RACHAEL FRIED  

All the things. Alright. So, jqy.org is the first place I would start. We have a JQY app, so that can be found in the App Store and on Google Play, and that’s a really cool resource. It’s a global Jewish queer community and network. Um, we have virtual programming, we also have microgrants for any college student who’s doing any kind of Jewish queer event basically anywhere in the world, so check out our website if you’re interested in doing some kind of Jewish queer college event, and let us help you fund it. We- You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, we’re @jewishqueeryouth. And we have a really cool event coming up, which is, there’s the holiday of Purim coming up on March 6, and it’s kind of like Jewish Halloween. It’s, like, the holiday where you are supposed to dress up, and drink, and party, and eat. And so, it’s like- It’s an amazing holiday in general, but we have the most awesome queer Jewish- queer Purim party. It’s in New York City, so if you’re in the New York area check it out. If you’re not in New York area, follow us anyway, and hopefully, we’ll bring JQY- We’re working on national expansion, so uh, if you’re looking for JQY in your city, also feel free to reach out and let us know. But anyway, jqy.org. You’ll find everything there, and on social media @jewishqueeryouth.

KYLE GETZ

Awesome.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So awesome. Thank you. Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ

We are on social media @gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, especially if it’s for Momsplaining, which we’re gonna be recording here coming up soon. It’s 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, leave a voicemail with your question for Ma Johnson.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And our physical mailing addresses Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109. Uh, really, really quickly, just reminding everybody that we are going to be at the Treefort Music Festival in Boise, Idaho. That’s coming up at the end of March, which I’m only harassing you about it now in case you need to get your travel plans. But that will be Friday, March the 24th.

KYLE GETZ  

And it’s an amazing, like, festival. There’s music, there’s drag, there’s comedy, there’s tons of other things to go to, so it’d be worth making a little trip to if you want to see us and other stuff.

MIKE JOHNSON

You ready to do our Gayest & Straightest?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ll go first.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So the, uh- I went to a fraternity conference. I was in Chicago all weekend, at a fraternity conference, and the gayest thing about me is that I just assumed everyone was gay. Like, if they were- Even if they were a little bit gay, I just presumed that they were gay, and my gaydar was so wrong. [Kyle laughs, Rachael chuckles] It was so, so, so, so wrong. There were several of the fraternity brothers that I just was certain, and then they would show me pictures of their wives or their fiancées. I, like- Oh, I need to- I need to recalibrate or somethin’. Anyway. But just, the presumption that like, everybody that I thought was even a little bit gay I just was like “Oh, gay, family! Here we go!”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, the straightest thing about me: at that conference, with a couple of straight bros, I had a full on conversation about Climate Pledge Arena, and that the Seattle Kraken plays there, and that the Seattle SuperSonics used to play there before they moved to Oklahoma City, and hopefully we get a basketball team back soon- It was- Oh my god, who was I? All the sportsball.

KYLE GETZ  

I stopped- Do I go now? I stopped listening when you mentioned some kind of arena.

MIKE JOHNSON

I know. I know! Yeah, I should have too. [all laugh] How about you, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ

Um, my gayest is: I went to the dentist, and I was in the waiting room, and I opened up Twitter, and boy was there porn on it. [Mike laughs] And I was like, “Eugh!” Like, I don’t follow porn accounts. It’s that y’all dirty fuckers like porn stuff, and then it shows up on my feed.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm. Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

That’s fine. I support all of that, [Mike chuckles] but I was just like “Oh, I can’t open Twitter at the dentist’s office.” Um, my straightest is: on the way over here I ran out of creamer. Usually put in ole vanilla, or lately hazelnut creamer. I was out of creamer so I just had some black coffee.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nice.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nice.

KYLE GETZ

Like a man. Like a dude!

MIKE JOHNSON

It’ll put hair on your chest, as my dad used to say.

KYLE GETZ

God, I hate it- I always hate it whenever- I have an uncle that said that, I was like, “I don’t want that.” [chuckles] How do I opt-out of that? [Mike laughs] Uh, Rachael, what about your Gayest & Straightest?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Alright. My gayest: I ended up playing a board game, Settlers of Catan, with three friends until like 3 in the morning, and we ended up sharing our coming- revisiting our coming out stories over wine and a board game for like hours and hours, which felt pretty good to me.

KYLE GETZ

YYess.

MIKE JOHNSON

Very nice.

RACHAEL FRIED

Um, and the other gayest thing I did this week was spend an exorbitant amount of time trying to figure out the straightest thing I did this this week, [Mike and Kyle laugh] which, I gotta say, is really difficult. I dunno if this is so straight or not, but I did the New York Times crossword puzzle every day this week.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

I feel like- Huh. It’s kinda gay also. I don’t know. But it’s what I got. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

No I- I get it, though. Like, I think queer people have better shit to do. [Mike and Rachael chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Well, I just think of-

RACHAEL FRIED  

It was on the commute, if that helps. I was just sitting on a train anyway.

KYLE GETZ  

I just think of someone, like, at the breakfast table opening up the paper, and it’s just like “I’m livin’ my normal straight life-” I could very much see that as a straight thing.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, I was- I don’t- I don’t know. It came across as a little straight to me, so I’ll share it.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, Rachael Fried, thank you so, so, so, much for being here and talking with us today. Really, really appreciate it.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Thank you for having me.

KYLE GETZ  

Other people are our Super Gap Bridgers! Thank you so much for your support Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura…

MIKE JOHNSON

Hey!

KYLE GETZ

Welcome. Uh… DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, that’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ  

I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.

MIKE JOHNSON

See you next week.

KYLE GETZ

See you next week. [Mike chuckles]

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

KYLE GETZ

I just had the thought, “This is Goyish.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

“This is Goyish”!? [all chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

I don’t know if we’re- I don’t know if we’re supposed to use that word or not, but-

RACHAEL FRIED  

You can, you can. I actually- A few people thought that “Gayish” was a combination between “gay” and “Jewish”, and so it kind of sounds like a Jewish queer podcast.

KYLE GETZ

Wow. Oh no! [chuckles]

RACHAEL FRIED

I had to explain, it’s not a Jewish podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Well-

KYLE GETZ

No. Well, for this one episode it is, a bit.

RACHAEL FRIED

But “Goyish” is better actually. It’s good.

KYLE GETZ

“Goy-” [laughs] I really want someone to start that podcast now.

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]

Gayish: 320 Astrology

Let’s pass judgements on people based on their sign! If that’s not the cornerstone of astrology, what is? Mike and Kyle talk about why (and if) astrology is so queer.

In this episode: News- 2:01 || Main Topic (Astrology)- 16:06 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:07:27

On the weekly bonus Patreon segment, Mike and Kyle delve into their partnership, how it started, and how they feel about it. Bonus audio, video, and lots of other perks available on Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

If you missed our live appearance on the Two Bad Tourists’ show, you can listen to the episode on their podcast feed, available at https://linktr.ee/queertravelchat.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello everyone in the podcast universe, this is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ  

The podcast that puts the dick in…

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Assuming my Viagra’s working that day. I’m Mike Johnson!

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Assuming my butthole’s working that day. I’m Kyle Getz!

MIKE JOHNSON  

We’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…

KYLE GETZ

Ooh, today…

MIKE JOHNSON

Puttin’ the “ass” in as-trology. Here we go.

KYLE GETZ  

Puttin’ the… “ol”… in ology? I dunno.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, and hopefully people don’t put the “troll” in as-trol-ogy because we fuck shit up.

KYLE GETZ  

But we’ll put the “yyyyy” in astrolog-y. [Mike laughs] It’s- We’re gonna- This is a very queer topic that y’all voted on – or, Gap Bridgers voted on – and I’m very excited to talk about it. I’m very excited to break this down.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Excellent. But first!

KYLE GETZ  

But first!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. You have a correction.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh! On our episode about partners we talked about various uses, why we like it and don’t like it, why – you know – challenges, pros, cons, servings and helpings of partners. And a very obvious thing we didn’t even mention is that nonbinary people may use the term partner, because, you know, husband/wife doesn’t work.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So that was a thing we missed, so thanks for sending that in, y’all.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I guess “partner” works better than “personfriend”. Like, there’s “boyfriend”, and “girlfriend”, and like “personfriend”.

KYLE GETZ  

You’re the only person I’ve ever heard say that phrase. Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I love when Lizzo did her Tiny Desk Concert for NPR and she was talking about fuckboys, and was like, “Fuck him, fuck her, fuck they.” [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

So inclusive! Yeah, fuck binary people too, if we’re gonna go ahead and- [both laugh] Um, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. Now, the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the first: NBA Brooklyn Nets player Cam Thomas…

KYLE GETZ  

Boy. Okay, Kyle, stay in it, listen, pay attention. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

…is- last Thursday night got fined $40,000 by the National Basketball Association for saying “No homo.”

KYLE GETZ

Whaaat?

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Shhhhhwow, that’s the most expensive “no homo” that’s ever existed probably, right?

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

What was the- Do you know the context?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Thomas, and Spencer Dinwiddie – which, that’s a made up name – were just acquired by the Nets in a trade with the Dallas Mavericks. They were being interviewed by Jared Greenberg of TNT after the game at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn. This is all according to ESPN, which, no, I did not read. But, after the trade, Dinwiddie had said “the Nets may not have gotten the best players, they got the best-looking.” He added, quote, “and the Nets needed some help in that department.” So then the interviewer asked Thomas about that remark, and he said, quote, “We already had good-looking guys, no homo.”

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm. God, I fuckin’- I- Hey, everyone, don’t say “No homo,” but it’s so fucking funny to me. [Mike laughs] Like, I don’t- Just- It’s always like, “Hey, there are hot dudes. No- Not a faggot!”

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

“I know I commented on another man’s physical appearance, but hey, not gay! Just have to remind you of that fact!” It’s- It always just does nothing but reinforce that the idea of- that what they said is a little gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Like, I- That would have been fine if a adult- a straight adult man said another straight adult man is attractive, like, but you’re allowed to do that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And that’s fine.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

People find people attractive and they’re not sexually going to suck their dick.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, exactly. Yep, exactly right. Exactly right. He quickly tweeted an apology saying, quote, “I want to apologize for the insensitive word I used in the post-game interview. I was excited about the win and was being playful. I definitely didn’t intend to offend anyone, but realize that I probably did. My apologies again. Much love”.

KYLE GETZ  

Mm. No homo.

MIKE JOHNSON

No homo. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Um, I- Sometimes the- That was a perfectly decent apology. He was direct about it, he said sorry. Um, usually it includes some kind of, like, “What I’m gonna do differently…” or something, but that’s fine. But I always think that, sometimes, it’s revealing. Like, “I was just intending to be playful,” that is supposed to- He was including that as like a “Hey, just like, this was my intent,” and I think that’s part of the problem is “My intent was, I thought this was a playful thing that I was just joking around about,” and that’s part of the problem is not realizing the gravity, and so many things that are just casual homophobia feel playful to people.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. Sure. I’m with you.

KYLE GETZ  

Your voice says that you’re not totally with me, but that’s okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No. No, no, no. I absolutely am. I think that there’s also- I wish that we didn’t have to speak in such binary terms when it came to language, because I firmly believe that intent matters.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

And while that intent, playing around – I agree with your criticism of it – it is not as bad as being overtly and intentionally offensively homophobic, which is a thing that straight guys do all the time. It feels like that’s a worse offense, and it’s okay to say so, you know?

KYLE GETZ  

It’s interesting, because in your criticism of the binary nature you were binary in which one is worse. I think each have different challenges. The challenge- Yeah, of course over homophobia is bad. I think a different challenge when it comes to “Oh, I was just being playful. Oh, it was-” like, casual homophobia, is the fact that people don’t realize it. That – the casualness of it, the fact that they’re not aware that their intent- their intent isn’t bad, and it just slips out – that’s a different challenge that we need to address, that people need to realize, and understand, and wake up to. Those things do have impact, and you need to know that. And it’s- it’s less obvious, it’s less in your face. It’s less “We can easily write this off as horrible,” you know? And I think that- So that’s just a different challenge that comes along with it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I appreciate that pushback. Uh, lots of other NBA players-

KYLE GETZ

Ah. Oh shit.

MIKE JOHNSON

-have been fined over the years for using homophobic language, including the late Kobe Bryant, which, yeah, people love him but apparently he was fined once for saying gay shit.

KYLE GETZ  

Huh. $40,000 though? Even I’m like “Is that-“ I guess high fines for people that make high income? I like that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Uh, news the second.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Did you watch the Grammys?

KYLE GETZ  

No, I just looked at Instagram posts about it later.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well, Sam Smith and Kim Petras made history at the 2023 Grammys with their win for Best Pop Duo/Group Performance, but, of course, a lot of conservative viewers were real mad about their performance!

KYLE GETZ

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

So there was- It was a, quote, “Horror movie-inspired performance,” but Sam Smith wore a red shiny top hat with devil horns coming out of it, and then Petras was in a cage and a bunch of dominatrixes- Dominatrices? Dominatrixes.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I like “dominatrices”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Dominatrices-

KYLE GETZ

I like that.

MIKE JOHNSON

-in red latex were dancin’ around. Of course, then, you know, conservative Christian folks said, you know, “It’s demonic,” and “They’re literally worshipping the devil on the screen,” and, you know, just- I just- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

“I love free speech unless it’s offensive to me.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly right. Someone on Twitter said, quote, “Satanic as you want to be. Sam Smith at the Grammies. Sponsored probably by the devil himself, Pfizer?” because, on lots of distribution channels, that performance was immediately followed up by a Pfizer commercial, [Kyle laughs] and of course like all of the QAnon, like, ridiculous folks, were like “There’s got to be a connection.” They’re always looking for a fucking connection.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like- Like some secret, like- Just- Ugh, God. Everybody, think about your conspiracy theories that you have, and just think about the sheer number of people that would have to be complicit to keep it a secret and actually then still pull it off, because if that number of people is more than about four, you are wrong.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, abso- [Mike laughs] Yeah. No one’s that good at keeping a secret when it- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Anyway- And then, apparently, similar things. There’s pushback from their performance at The BRIT Awards, which just happened here a couple of nights ago. He’s wearing like a sleeveless leather harness.

KYLE GETZ

“They’re” wearing? Is it Sam Smith?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. You’re right. And, uh-

KYLE GETZ

I didn’t see that look!

MIKE JOHNSON

Latex vest, bondage straps, chains, and leather trousers. And Kim Petras slid out from underneath a car wearing black overalls and psychedelic black eye makeup.

KYLE GETZ  

I wonder what people’s response was when Rihanna did the song SNM. I think people are more angry when queer people do it than when straight people do the same thing. I wonder- Rihanna got- had to have some performances where she did something S&M-y.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And I wonder what- I don’t remember enough to remember if there’s outrage against that song, against-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I’m sure there was-

KYLE GETZ

I’m sure that there was. At this scale?

MIKE JOHNSON

-but also, like, less so, because she’s cis het, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, like- Umm, and then last – I love this one – the Church of Satan [chuckles] released a statement saying that that Unholy performance was “meh.” [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. Shade from the demonic temple of demons!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Said uh, said David Harris, a magister of the Church of Satan, said he thought Smith and Petras’s performance was, quote, “alright,” and “nothing particularly special.” [both laugh] All of that was, like, tongue in cheek, but saying like “That’s not- That’s not devil worship, because I do that and that’s not what we do.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [both chuckle]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, news the last!

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

This video games thing, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

What video game thing?

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, Hogwarts Legacy.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhhhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

One of the most anticipated video game releases of all time, is, of course, now a hotbed of controversy because of the well-documented TERF, transphobic creator JK Rowling.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

My whole thing is- Well, okay. So, first of all, it’s coming out – or, came out – last week, and it is on PlayStation 5, PC, Xbox, all the places. And, I mean, yeah, it’s in the Harry Potter universe, and there’s a whole bunch of, you know, people who are super attached to that, and a lot of straight people that have no idea that what they’re- what they’re, you know, participating in, has any sort of controversy behind it because, you know, trans issues aren’t nearly as widespread as us on our show, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm, mhm, mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway. Yeah, So… So so so so, I think, um… I’m nervous now. I’m being- I’m being- I’m being careful, because, like, there are people in my life – gay people, queer people in my life – who are like, “I’m gonna buy it and play it,” and that’s okay, and- [said quietly] I don’t think it’s okay. But I did suggest on our Discord server, maybe, just like, there’s like, carbon offsets? Like, you can pay more for a plane ticket as a carbon offset, right? Like, what if you did a TERF offset, and like, it’s okay to buy and play that game, but then also give $20 to a trans charity?

KYLE GETZ  

Ooh, I love that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Match- Match whatever you spent on it, or double it, or something, to- I love that. That’s a good idea.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I- I mean, to me, it’s, like, so well-documented. It’s in the realm of Chick-fil-A kind of, now. Like, and-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Can- I want to push back on that.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, sure sure sure!

MIKE JOHNSON

Chick-fil-A is literally giving liquid cash money to documented organizations who are pro-conversion therapy and are killing children.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, that’s true.

MIKE JOHNSON

JK Rowling is just a cunt. 

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah- [laughs] Yeah, you’re right. It is a little bit more indirect when it comes to the Harry Potter universe- Well, she makes- Surely she makes money off of that, and that helps fuel her continued- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s good call. And- Yeah, I just- I don’t think people should buy it. I don’t think people should continue- The more you continue to support those things, the franchise continues, she stays relevant, she gets to spout her TERF nonsense. So I think, especially when you’re- And also, like, listening to the people that it impacts: so many trans people I see on like, Twitter and stuff, are very vocal like, “No, don’t buy this. You’re activ- Like, this is actively hurting our community,” and I think people are taking it far too lightly.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Well, and there’s also, now, like a new controversy. That’s a strong word.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, uh, apparently they’ve added the ability for you to play a trans character when you do character creation in the game, and there’s at least one major trans character in the story. Unfortunately, her name is Sirona, and uh, people are making fun of that. But a lot of people are saying, you know, “Too little too late,” and “That’s just pandering,” and like, “Throwing the queer community a couple of bones does not make up for JK Rowling and her fuckin’ horseshit.” So.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I also hear, fairly often, people who are being apologists for the whole thing, and they don’t realize it maybe. “But hundreds of people worked on that game, and if you don’t buy it then you’re hurting their careers,” or “you’re spitting in the face of all of their hard work,” and I reject that. I reject that outright as a justification. Like, they made their money, they work there, they’ve been paid already. Like, they’re fine. Buying or not buying this game is gonna affect the publisher’s bottom line, not all of those people that you’re claiming to support by buying this game.

KYLE GETZ  

Right. Right. Yeah, I agree with you for sure. I think the- The cases where I give exception is, for queer people dealing with depression, there are so few- sometimes you’re in a place where so few things bring any kind of happiness or joy. And it’s not just me. You know, queer people are more affected by things like depression. If you find joy, if you’re struggling, or you find so much joy in this that this is a thing that helps ya keep on holding on, because you love the Harry Potter universe and you love playing this game, if this brings a queer person that much- if it’s that important and personal to you, and you need it, that to me is the exception. Like, you care about yourself first. Care about your own happiness, surviving things you’re going through, whatever. That’s your number one, and I would rather have you do that than make a political stance that harms you personally.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That, to me, is the one big asterisk on any kind of like ban, or political, or boycott, or thing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. I’m with you. Okay. Yeah. That’s it, that’s the news.

KYLE GETZ  

Well, speaking of other people – I’m never gonna boycott – it’s our following Patreon members.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yay!

KYLE GETZ

Thank you to Randall Da…meron? Damerin? Dimerin… Dameron. “Dameron” sounds like a medication I have to ask the grocery store person to come get, because it’s behind a locked case.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Dominatrices”? [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

“I would like that dominatrice, please.” Um, and Christopher Shinn. There are two n.

MIKE JOHNSON

Shi-n-n?

KYLE GETZ

Shi-n-n. Uhh, thank you so much! If you want bonus episodes, content, to join Patreon happy hours, to support us, you can do that at patreon.com/gayishpodcast. This episode was voted on by our Gap Bridgers, our highest tier, and the second episode – the bonus episode for this month – is gonna be chocolate, which, overwhelmingly that was the second choice for people. So, if you want to hear us talk about chocolate, that’s the bonus episode this month.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah! Also, we’re so close to having, like, enough money to do a tour.

KYLE GETZ

Yeahhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Please join.

KYLE GETZ  

Beep beep beep, do it. Do you wanna talk about astrology?!

MIKE JOHNSON  

[singing] Let’s talk about astrology.

KYLE GETZ  

[singing] Talk and call it astrology.

MIKE JOHNSON

First-

KYLE GETZ

That’s a deep Britney Spears cut.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m gonna talk about the history of astrology, but first, I just want to know: how do you feel about astrology, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

Boy, this is gonna be the- This is the challenge of this epi- Right? This is the whole challenge of us doing this episode.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Look, it’s not real and you’re stupid, but I love you! [both laughs] That’s gonna be- That’s the premise. In this- In this paper, I will explain to you why you’re both stupid and I care about you. It’s- You know, it’s- It’s very queer. You think of- Particularly, you think of lesbians when you think of astrology, but also it’s a very queer thing. I have some gayta I’ll get to later, to tell you how queer, but-

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s just- To me, it actual- it fall- It’s very interesting because it – to me – it falls under the category of religion, a thing people have invented to help themselves. I- We have not yet weaponized astrology against, you know, entire swathes of human beings, that I know of, so like, you know, obviously not the same, but it just- but at least, in theory, that’s the category this goes under, is religion.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So that’s why I’m like- I dunno. But I’ve- But it’s weird because my more liberal friends – my less religious friends – are also the ones that care about this shit, and crystals and – you know – witchy stuff. So it’s just a weird- It’s- To me, it’s like a weird, interesting dynamic that I don’t understand why different groups of people are in a different thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. I’m with you.

KYLE GETZ

So that’s where I’m at, what about you?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So- I mean- I think- So, me being me, I want to make sure that, when we’re talking about astrology, that we’re crystal clear about what we’re talking about and, by extension, what we’re not talking about.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, you mentioned a lot of like, crystal stuff, and like spells and – you know – witchy things. That is not astrology, at least as much as-

KYLE GETZ  

Yes. Yes, and it’s- But it’s the same people that like astrology, also were into some of these other things.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Right. It’s in this cluster of shit that tends to go together, right? Also like, yoga, for some- [Kyle laughs] like, is in that zone. But uh- But yeah, Astrology specifically comes from the Latin word “astrologia”, which is from the Greek “asteron”, which means “star”, and “logia”, meaning “study of” or “writing about”. So it’s the study of the stars.

KYLE GETZ  

“Logia” is a cool name. That should be like a cool-

MIKE JOHNSON

Logia?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

logia.com?

KYLE GETZ

Oh. Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

logia.org?

KYLE GETZ

“Find your next astrology match.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, so it’s the study of the movement of the stars, and planets move differently than stars, so that’s how the planets get involved in astrology. And it’s important to note that every single human culture in the history of humanity has had some kind of fascination, or attention, or paid like credence to, what’s happening in their observations of the stars, and a lot of that is especially due to agriculture, but even pre agricultural societies did. But a lot of it is related to, like, you can tell what time of year it is by looking up and seeing the stars and utilizing the calendar.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Fun fact: you can also tell what time of day it is, to see if you see stars or not!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, is it night?

KYLE GETZ

Is it nighttime?

MIKE JOHNSON

Maybe.

KYLE GETZ

You- You kind of skipped over- You’re defining it – maybe still – so you can get back to this, but you kind of skipped over your opinions of it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Here’s where I’m going with this.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

First, I’m fascinated by it. I love me some systems, I love me some like arcane, like it has to be done properly- Like, my engineering brain is really attracted to a lot of this stuff, because there is consistent physical truth that can be looked at on an astrological chart, right? Like, so much of it really is- It’s not just like “I came up with a bunch of random shit.” The random shit is the meaning that’s ascribed to it, but it really does carefully track like, where shit is in the sky, and where it’s going, and how it gets there, and it’s predictive. We know, because of all of this stuff, like you’ll be able to see Venus in the south on November 8th, or whatever. Like, that’s- That’s real and true.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Mercury really does go into retrograde.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, exactly. It does. It doesn’t make your laptop stop working, [Kyle laughs] but it like- And also, I think, some of it is real in as much as different things happen at different times of the year, and there is an impact, right? Like, kids that are born in whatever month are measurably better at hockey, right? Like, there are- there are some subtle, not slam dunks, but there are some things that are impacted by the time of year that you are born, or things like when you should plant your crops, and when you should harvest them, and when you should burn it all down or whatever.

KYLE GETZ  

But isn’t this all correlation? This is not causation, so…

MIKE JOHNSON  

I agree. I absolutely agree. Well, no, it is causation for like the hockey thing, because they just get- it’s about how old they are when they start in the in the league.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Had they been born at a- Like, the cause of that difference in ability is the month you were born in.

KYLE GETZ

Right. Not the stars though. That’s the- Right.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right, right. Sure. Sure sure sure. But then, lastly, I also think, even if I 100% think that the whole thing is bullshit – and I’m about 95% the whole thing is bullshit [Kyle laughs] – we know from psychology that the placebo effect works, even if you know it’s a placebo. I can say “These pills that I’m giving you are made out of sugar, there’s no medicine in them whatsoever, but they will make your headache feel better.” That can work. So I think that if people are deriving comfort, if people are deriving a deeper understanding of themselves, if they’re developing empathy for their fellow humans based on this absolute cacophony of horseshit, great.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I don’t want to shit on it. Like- I- There is likely some justifiable value to it.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I’ve gotten better at that piece of, in spite of everything that I said and believe, I’m like- Rather than making fun of, shitting on- On the podcast I’m gonna shit on you because like, I get to talk about my feelings and opinions, but when I’m actually talking to another person, my friends that care about this, I think I’ve gotten better, over time, instead of scoffing or like being like “Oh, that dumb thing?” or making jokes about it, I’m more open to like ”I want to hear your perspective, and what it means to you, and what you care about, and I will go with you and support you.” Just like, you know, everyone should be able to do anything that- I think what it comes down to is like, you get to do things that don’t hurt other people, that are your- Like, that- It actually, in that way, does tie into gay shit. It’s like, you get- If you love astrology, you do that, that hurts no one, that’s your own thing, your passion, you believe it, go for it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Whatever a person does with the stars in the privacy of their own bedroom, [both laughing] between consenting constellations, is- we have to be on board with that.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. So, some form of astrology has been around since at least the 2nd millennium BCE.

KYLE GETZ  

What happened in the first millennium?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Right? Well, that came after.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, fuck. [Mike laughs] What happened 3rd millennium?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love it. But also it’s important to note that, until quite recently, it was considered science. Right? Like, we have to go all the way up to like the 17th century, 18th century, before people start realizing that uh, no, this is actually bullshit.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, no.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, in a way, being skeptical of the whole thing just means that we’re modern. Like-

KYLE GETZ  

Which is weird, because the new age thing feels like to believe in it. Like, so- It’s weird how things can change and be the opposite and different. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. So academic and theoretical study of astrology per se ended in roughly the 19th century.

KYLE GETZ  

“Per se” is such an academic diss. I love that. That was so mean, but casually. [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON  

But the 1960s apparently- I’m gonna blame acid. Uh, in the 1960s it started really coming back and has basically been here to stay since then. All of this to say: I’m now gonna surprise you with a quiz, a pop quiz, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Fuck, do I have to have listened?

MIKE JOHNSON

N- Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Aw, man.

MIKE JOHNSON

No. No, no, no, you don’t have to have listened.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, phew.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, I’m going to- What I want you to do is do the thing where you just, like, the first thing that comes to your mind is what I want you to yell out.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay? I’m gonna say a sign, you tell me what it is.

KYLE GETZ  

Bros! Wait, are we do- are we playing it? [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Aries.

KYLE GETZ

Me!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes.

KYLE GETZ  

I’m that! I’m that! That’s me.

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s Aries the Kyle. Okay, Taurus.

KYLE GETZ  

Um, uh, uh, mean.

MIKE JOHNSON

‘Kay.

KYLE GETZ

I’m doing this to describe what they- what these people are like.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I like that better, actually.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

I was- I was more wanting you say “Aries the ram,” “Taurus the bull.”

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, I was supposed to guess the actual thing. [Mike laughing] Fuck. They’re mean, so they’re- they’re, uh- they’re angry turtles.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great! Great. Great. Gemini.

KYLE GETZ  

Uhh, that’s a pop band, and so they’re fun and upbeat.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Geminis twin from Saturday Night Live. It’s-

KYLE GETZ

No, there’s like the Gemini- or is that like an anime? It doesn’t matter.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, Cancer!

KYLE GETZ

Um…

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs loudly] Here comes a cancer joke, everybody!

KYLE GETZ  

No, no, I- Like, you just said to say the first thing that came into my mind, and I’m not gonna do that with it. I’m gonna take a hard pass on this one. I think my dad’s a cancer. Um, my dad’s um, pretty cool.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

So the- Pretty cool, as represented by my dad’s face. That’s the mascot of Cancer.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Cancer the crab. Uh, Leo!

KYLE GETZ  

Um, that’s gotta be a hot dude. That’s gotta be the hot dude from Charmed. He’s the thing that represents them, [Mike laughs] and so I’m gonna say magical.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Leo the lion. Uh, Virgo!

KYLE GETZ

Uh, it’s represented by the chicken, and they’re just- they’re just confused.

MIKE JOHNSON

Virgo the virgin, a virgin maiden, specifically.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I was gonna say virgin, then I was like, “That’s stupid. That’s a dumb word association that I just-” Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, Libra!

KYLE GETZ

Um, they’re free because they’re Libra. They’re free and they’re represented by the freest animal I can think of… um, butterflies.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. The scales. They are a set of scales. Uh, Scorpio!

KYLE GETZ

Um, scorpion!

MIKE JOHNSON

Got one right. Okay, uh-

KYLE GETZ

Fuck yeah! No, and that- And like, what you think of as scorpions: they’re sweet.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. We’re water signs, which is weird. Uh, Sagittarius!

KYLE GETZ  

Uhh, Sagittarius? More like Sagi-dumbass. Um, they’re represented by a pile of poop.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. [both laugh] A centaur or archer. It says either- Shooting a bow and arrow. It’s either a centaur or a human shooting a bow and arrow.

KYLE GETZ  

I guess we never see the upper half of someone. You never- Like, all those paintings of like the upper halves, you don’t know if they’re a centaur down below.

MIKE JOHNSON

You don’t know what kind of horse deck is happening below [both laugh] the frame. Uh, Capricorn!

KYLE GETZ  

Uhh, Capricorn, they’re represented by a sugar cube and they’re, um- they are forgetful.

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckling] Mountain goats.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Mountain goats I bet like sugar cubes!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, or sea goats? The Babylonians thought that it was a goat fish. Uh, Aquarius!

KYLE GETZ  

Um, aquamarine. They’re represented by the band Aqua and they are blue. No, that’s Eiffel 65.

MIKE JOHNSON 

You know.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s fine.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Barbie World?

KYLE GETZ  

Uh, [singing] I’m a Barbie girl. That’s-

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, Pisces!

KYLE GETZ

Um, Pisces, they’re, interestingly, represented by a different, better chicken.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Excellent. Although, also edible, so maybe I’ll give you partial credit for that one. You got 1.3 out of 12 correct.

KYLE GETZ  

You know, that’s about on par as what I would think I would do. [Mike laughs] And I passed some judgment on people, which is what astrology is all about!

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s absolutely true. 100%. So, I mean, that’s all of the signs and what they are, but that goes back to at least Babylonian times. The same constellations that are in the sky were associated with the same times of year and had roughly the same meaning. Some exceptions: Aries in Babylonian times wasn’t the ram, but was like a farm worker.

KYLE GETZ  

Mm. Since Aries is me, I don’t care about either- Well, “ram my ass,” that’s fun. Okay, I like the current one better then.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Cancer the crab was actually- it was a crayfish, which, close enough. I see why that morphed over time. Like, they’re basically the same thing. And uh, let’s see… Sagittarius was a soldier, not an archer or a centaur. I already mentioned Capricorn was a goat fish in Babylonian times. Aquarius was a pitcher.

KYLE GETZ

P- Pitcher?

MIKE JOHNSON

“Pitcher”, like a pitcher of water.

KYLE GETZ

Huh. That’s boring. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

But yeah, most of them- If I didn’t mention it, it’s been the same since Babylonian times, and I just think that’s interesting. That doesn’t necessarily lend any credence to the fuckitude, but, um-

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, this is one of those things where just because it has existed a long time – we talked about this on Traditions – like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Doesn’t mean it’s good. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Doesn’t mean it’s good, doesn’t mean it’s right, doesn’t mean there’s more value than in new things. That’s one of these fallacies that we think of, like, you know. Yeah. Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s good.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway-

KYLE GETZ

Sorry, Joe Biden.

MIKE JOHNSON

-that’s my history ish of astrology. You want to talk about lesbians?

KYLE GETZ  

I- Well, a little bit. Why don’t we- I mean, we mentioned it, I’m an Aries. I wrote down… you’re Scorpio?

MIKE JOHNSON

Scorpio, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Do you- Eh, maybe we’ll talk our-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Gayish – the show, Gayish – is also an Aries.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh my god, that’s right, because it’s right around my birthday that we started it!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Um, do you- We’re gonna talk a little bit more about our signs like later in the episode, and more on Patreon too we’re gonna actually, like, read some of the signs. So okay, do you- But do you relate to it? I have had-

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, Scorpios are supposed to be horny freaks, and I, like, I wish I had more Scorpio energy in my life.

KYLE GETZ  

Mm. Yeah. [chuckles] You want a little Scorpio in you?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yes! But I’m like a triple Scorpio, or double Scorpio, or some shit. Like, I might have to look that part up, I might be lying to you, but-

KYLE GETZ  

I did my- I’m an Aries. Did you look up your rising or your moon sign?

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, I can do that while we’re sitting here, because you’re gonna talk about-

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, yeah. No, you don’t- No, this is my part now. Uh, my rising sign is Leo, my moon sign is Aries. That probably means something that my moon sign is the same as my zodiac sign, but I never relate to- Whenever I do read like an Aries horoscope, it’s- Aries, descriptions of them are always like, “They’re assertive and demanding, and don’t get in their way or they’ll go off on you!” like all this stuff that I’m like, “I don’t connect with this.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. And I’m sure- Okay, this is also, actually- It has a name, I’m sure it has a name. There’s a psychological phenomenon of doubling and tripling down on shit, and astrology is really good at it. Just, the more complicated, and complex, and arcane the system is, the easier it is to say “Oh, that’s just ‘cause you don’t understand it well enough.”

KYLE GETZ

Mmm. Mhm. Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right? Like, it’s not that all of our typifications of Aries are wrong, it’s that “you need to look deeper into the chart to uncover this.” The presumption is that it’s right, you just need to figure out why you’re wrong.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is easier to say to someone like me who comes in not knowing much, then people that are like really into it would be like “Oh, you just don’t understand what Aries really means,” or “There’s a part of you that-” Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Sun sign, Scorpio. Moon sign, I don’t know what that is. Moon in Taurus.

KYLE GETZ  

Rising? That’s the other one.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I don’t even know what that- Is it on here. Oh, Venus! Scorpio! Scorpio rising.

KYLE GETZ  

People at home that care about astrology, there you go. You can analyze us.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Oh wait, do you rela- No, okay, we both don’t really relate to our types.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. A lot of like Scorpio stuff, I think- There’s always the horny thing. Like, everybody’s like “Oh, Scorpios, they’re hot in bed.” I’m like, “Oh, girl.” Like, you- Mm-mm.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, if that gets you laid, maybe use it? Like embracing the daddy thing, maybe you need to embrace your Scorpio, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, Scorpio daddy!

KYLE GETZ

Scorpio daddy!

MIKE JOHNSON 

T-shirt idea! [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Umm, yeah, what’s- I almost just typed in “symptoms of Scorpio”. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

“If your dick is erect for more than four hours, you might be a Scorpio. Talk to your doctor if Scorpio medication’s right for you.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, “Scorpios are strong, enigmatic, independent characters who crackle with an intensity and charisma that makes them un-ignorable. For all of that power though, they often remain un-knowable to others, because they guard themselves and their private lives fiercely.” [laughs] He said, on the podcast-

KYLE GETZ  

This podcast has proven- [laughs] Yeah, the podcast about him, where he’s exposed most everything.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I’m gonna- Let’s get into the gayta.

MIKE JOHNSON

Gayta, yeah!

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna start broad. Pew Research-

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Pew, pew pew.

KYLE GETZ

Love it. Love it. Keep doing that every time, it’s fun. [Mike laughs] Um, In 2009, 25% of adults said they believe in astrology.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

In 2017, that went up to 30%-

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

-of adults say they believe in astrology. So there definitely is-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Also, people have consistently been less and less religious every year, and you said that your less religious friends are more likely to be into this shit.

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, is it supplanting…?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. There are a lot of- I also read a bunch of like, just, you know, pop kind of culture articles that are about this, and a lot of them were around 2017, 2019, and they mentioned, yeah, like people are less religious, which is interesting that this is growing then. Millennials – they talked about us millennials – you know, we always fuck everything up, and it’s like, “and they’re more gay, and believing more in this,” so yeah, there’s like weird kind of connection. So if you feel like you’ve been hear- I feel like I’ve been hearing more about astrology of like- in the past several years. And that’s more- Like, 5, 10 years ago I wouldn’t have connected astrology with queerness, but that has become very connected to me, and I think that is truly a recent phenomenon. Do you agree? Do you-

MIKE JOHNSON  

I have a story about that later.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ll tell you later.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay. Okay. In 2005- Now we’ll get into difference in genders. In 2005, there was a Gallup poll that asked people about paranormal beliefs and other, like, these kinds of things, and, in the US at least- They separated out the difference between men and women. Sorry, nonbinary people, no fucking idea because Gallup didn’t know you existed in 2005. In the US, 23% of men said they believe in astrology.

MIKE JOHNSON

‘Kay.

KYLE GETZ

For women, that was 28%.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

That’s not a huge difference.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I thought the gap would be larger… [chuckles] we said about your butt.

KYLE GETZ  

I- [both laugh] Yeah, every top has said to me. Um, I agree. I agree. And it’s not- It’s about a quarter each. Like, it is not the pervasive belief of women or anything. So, yeah, those numbers I was surprised at, and yeah, especially the gender gap was not as big as I thought.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, and the whole thing that we’ve talked about several times of, like, a lot of gay stuff is actually feminine stuff that gets like- you know, by the commutative property of misogyny, ends up being what we say about gay people, and maybe that’s not the case here.

KYLE GETZ  

I think it- I think it still is. So, in Canada and the UK, the gender gap is larger. Men, 70% believe in, it versus women, 33% believe in it in Canada.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

In Great Britain, 14% of men believe in it, versus 30% of women. So there are larger gender gaps in other countries.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

British guys don’t believe anything.

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] They barely believe in themselves. [Mike laughs] Um- Am I British? Okay. Uh, the only thing- The only- They asked about several different beliefs, and the only thing that men believed in at a higher percentage than women was that extra-terrestrial beings have visited Earth at some point in the past.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure. Great.

KYLE GETZ

It was the only question where men [chuckles] had stronger belief. Which is like, why is that a men- Why is astrology more women, and aliens visiting Earth is a man thing?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Because science fiction is like white straight bro-marketed, and it’s so toxic too.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. But like, I definitely- I definitely think that, like, sci fi is created for and marketed to mostly dudes.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I guarantee that people that are into sci fi are more likely to think about, and therefore believe in, extraterrestrials.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that documentary, Picard, um-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Starts Thursday, everybody. Today! Oh, Picard’s tonight! Everybody, don’t miss it!

KYLE GETZ  

The day of this episode release. [Mike chuckles] Okay, now let’s get into lesbians.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s get into- [laughs] They don’t like that.

KYLE GETZ

With consent. Um, Autostraddle is a lesbian website- I remember even like finding an article on this and was like “’Autostraddle’? That’s funny. That’s a weird-” and now like, come to realize it’s like this giant, like, lesbian website. Um, they did a 2018 lesbian stereotypes survey-

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

-where they got over 12,000 responses. The breakdown – even though it’s, like, lesbian women-focused – 75% of those responses were cis lesbians, the rest were trans and queer women and trans and queer people, but heavy on the- heavy on lesbians.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, 41% were lesbians, the rest were queer, bi, or pan. And, for the question “Do you believe in astrology?” – and the way that is phrased as was the other question in Pew Pew – “Do you believe in astrology, that [is, that] the positions of stars and planets can affect people’s lives?” That is specifically what they’re asking about astrology. What percentage said yes they believe in it, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

60!

KYLE GETZ

28%.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Aw, I’m disappointed now.

KYLE GETZ  

I’m very happy, because for once in our fucking careers- [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

-you said what I wanted you to, and it was wrong, and I got to say the right thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, Great. Great. I’m so proud of you. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Podcast over. It finally worked, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Where I thought you were gonna go, before you decided to be mean to me, was [Kyle laughs] that it’s a stereotype of lesbians that is not true!

KYLE GETZ  

Yes. Yeah. Oh, yes. I’m getting there. I had to be mean to you before we could get to that point. [Mike laughs] It’s the bridge on the road to the actual discussion.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Yes, it is- it’s not the case that a majority, or even like close to half, believe in this.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and, sort of in line with cis het women, right?

KYLE GETZ  

Yes. It’s- And they did the comparison between some of the other, like national studies, of like, you know, their data versus other data. So, you know, obviously, comparing two different- But they phrased it in the exact same way of a question, to try to eliminate- So anyway, the biggest difference- Yeah, it was very close to- In terms of people that believed, it was very close. In their survey in the Autostraddle lesbian stereotype survey, the percentage of people that said “I don’t know,” is 20%, and for the other studies they said 4%. So that was the biggest difference, that there’s far more people that say, “I don’t know.”

MIKE JOHNSON

…Astrology agnostic?

KYLE GETZ

Astrology… agnostic. Yeah! Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON 

Interesting. Although, I’m sure Sarah Ray will tell me that, like, that’s not what agnostic means.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. And then 52% of people said “No,” they don’t believe in it. Um, and then the headline of the article – the Autostraddle article – pointed out that 28%- even though 28% believe in it, 50% of their readers look at their charts. So, more people look at their charts then believe in it. So, they themselves on their website has an astrology section, so that could play into their readers are more likely maybe to look at their own, like, Autostraddle’s horoscopes or something. So- But yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

You keep saying “straddle”, and I- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

It’s- And “autostraddle” mean straddle yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I straddle myself.

KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON

[speaking rhythmically] I straddle myself. I straddle- I straddle- I straddle myself. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Um, but yes, this is very much- This is what we assume, that all lesbians are into astrology, and I think we talk about it louder than is true. We blow up this- There is some truth to it. Some people believe in it, and it’s important, but we blow it up into this much bigger thing. That is not the case.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I think I will, maybe on the Patreon segment, talk a little bit more about fun tidbits, about like what percentage- Oh, the one that I will mention here: the belief in astrology, by sexual orientation, was about overall 28% of lesbians – specifically lesbians – said they believed in astrology. The most likely to believe in astrology where 38% of those who identified as sexually fluid-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh!

KYLE GETZ

-believed in astrology. So that was the highest of all the possible orientations. That one was the highest.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Interesting.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Wonder what that says?

KYLE GETZ  

Like, you- I dunno.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s hard to do- It’s hard to say what that says without then stereotyping a big group of people. You know? I dunno. It’s weird. Anyway, so that’s the truth behind astrology.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Huh! End of episode. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, it kind of does break the, like, the assumptions, right? Like-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got one, Kyle! We busted one! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Well, I mean, this is one that- It like, seems very like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Go ahead. You’re fine. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Your face didn’t- [chuckles] Okay. This is very much one that- It seems pretty clear to me that this is a stereotype, this is assumption, it’s not true, it’s- Yeah. It’s very interesting, that kind of very, like, clear cut data it seems like.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, if we ever tried to do this show like MythBusters style, like, we so rarely have busted at the end of the episode. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Yes. Yes, yes. I think this is busted for sure.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. Great, great, great. Well uh, I did- I mentioned earlier, I wanted to talk to you about the queer astrology movement. The queer astrology movement-

KYLE GETZ  

I have a- had a queer astrology movement in the toilet.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well… I’m proud of you.

KYLE GETZ

Thank you.

MIKE JOHNSON

There is a queer astrology movement, and they have a queer astrology conference, and that’s an annual conference. It’s been around for a while: 2015, the conference has been.

KYLE GETZ  

Which, that- Okay, that kind of is in line with my general understanding of like, when this has been growing in popularity and all that. So yeah, that makes sense.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, that’s absolutely true. And, um, so- So it was… [sighs] I don’t know how to fit this in here.

KYLE GETZ

Ha! That’s what… she said.

MIKE JOHNSON

Said every top to you, ever. [Kyle laughs] In 2013, they – a bunch of professional astrologers, who were queer – had a queer astrology conference in San Francisco, and about 120 people came.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh, it was really interesting. One of the things, that was a talk that they had, was this idea that men are from Mars and women are from Venus… but are nonbinary people from? And there really is a lot of, like, gender binary stuff that’s built into the bullshit of astrology.

KYLE GETZ

Interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, like, what do we do about that? And-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway-

KYLE GETZ

You said you have a story- Okay. The men and- The breakdown of men versus women… okay, this is why you mentioned that earlier.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I think s- Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Yes. “Yes,” he said confidently.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Uh, I looked through a list of all of the topics that they’ve ever covered at that conference-

KYLE GETZ

Wow!

MIKE JOHNSON

-and absolutely my favorite one is: a claimed astrologer, Christopher Renstrom, just last year did one called “Does Uranus Make Me Gay?” [both laugh] But apparently the position of Uranus, on your chart, is supposed to, in astrological circles, influence your sexual orientation.

KYLE GETZ  

Interesting. I wonder if anyone’s dug into, like, if it affects whether you’re a top, bottom, side, whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s- We should find- Let us know, If you’re not mad at us for shitting astrology, [both chuckle] dear listener.

KYLE GETZ  

That would be interesting, if you could find it in the stars, like what you were meant to be. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So, some other some of the more serious topics that I thought were really interesting. Like, you mentioned Mercury being in retrograde. There are these cycles that happen, right? And one of their topics was “The Saturn Return of AIDS,” and there was an astrologer who had lost his partner to AIDS and did a star chart for the AIDS epidemic. So he went to the CDC website and found the day that the CDC officially named HIV/AIDS HIV/AIDS, called that its birthday, and then did a star chart to help him cope, understand, process, his partner’s death.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, at that time would it be when they called it “GRID”, or when they call it “AIDS”? Because wouldn’t’ve called it “HIV”.

MIKE JOHNSON  

It just says the date the CDC named the virus served as its birthday for this chart.

KYLE GETZ

Interesting. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s also- Another one was “Lilith And Adam: The Origins Of Gender, Sex and Deviance” and it looked at the mythology of Adam in the Bible. And Lilith – which, Lilith is an interesting story that, like, is an evil lesbian trope almost, I think, but, uh – she was kicked out of the Garden of Eden for refusing to have sex in missionary position.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Now, it didn’t make it into the Bible. I think that’s an apocryphal book, but it’s because a bunch of white dudes got together and decided what was in the Bible and what was out of the Bible, but they had a lot to choose from.

KYLE GETZ  

We can’t teach women that they don’t have to do missionary.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly right. Exactly right.

KYLE GETZ

But is that where the fair came from? Is that where Lilith Fair came from?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Damn!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Women that ain’t gonna put up with your shit.

KYLE GETZ  

I love that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Angry women- Angry lesbians that got kicked out of the Garden of Eden?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That’s- Yeah, that’s Alanis Morissette right there. Yeah! Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] And “Ecosexuality: Liberating the Venus Within Pluto”-

KYLE GETZ

What the- That- Okay. [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

-which was meant to serve as an entryway to awakening the astrological archetypes in a radically intimate cosmology, which recognizes the centrality of relationship to our being.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, now I see.

MIKE JOHNSON

None of that made any sense whatsoever.

KYLE GETZ

But someone out there’s fuckin’ loving this shit. I wonder how it- Like, I just- What- I just had on my paper somewhere like, “Gemini season.” I wrote nothing about that, but I was like, “At some point, I need to mention Gemini season, and someone’s gonna fuckin’ love that.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I dunno. Or maybe they’ll hate it, because they’re like, “You don’t- You have no idea what that is.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

You can look up “Queer Astrology” – they have a Facebook page, there’s queerastrology.com – and find all of their events. They’re doing a lot of stuff on Zoom, they do plan on returning to in-person get-togethers, and it’s just- it’s really cool that there is a group that’s dedicated to just embracing the queerness of all of this and talking about these issues, and using that lens for queer content. So I thought it was really- really interesting.

KYLE GETZ  

This is the, like, one of those weird things where I- but, while I don’t personally believe in it, if it is a thing that exists and people care about- So, if- Given that’s the case, I want there to be a queer lens on it. I want someone to question why- where are nonbi- which planet or nonbinary people from. Like, I want people to be doing this. So I’m glad- Like, I’m both gonna make fun of it a little bit here, but also, I’m really glad that organization exists, and is doing that, and making sure queer people get represented everywhere.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep, absolutely. And, while I’m here, I will also talk about: legitimately there’s a organization/event planner. I don’t know- I don’t know- I don’t understand- Okay. [Kyle chuckles] Have you ever been to a city where like, there’s a place that’s not a gay bar, but it has so many gay events it might as well be a gay bar?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Have you ever been to a party that goes to different places and the party has an identity?

KYLE GETZ

No, like a beer crawl?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like a- Like a circuit party, I guess. That’s like a similar thing, right? Like the venue- It’s not about the venue, it’s about, like, “This is the thing.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway, in Los Angeles, there’s a thing called “Asstology”, A-S-S-T-R-O-L-O-G-Y. ASStrology. It’s @gayasstrology.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] That’s fun.

MIKE JOHNSON

But they have all kinds of events, but one of the things that they do, on a monthly basis, is they have a themed dance event around whatever the current zodialogical sign is. So they are having a Pisces party on March 3, they just had an Aquarius party for February, and I just- The pictures are great. Also is- I don’t know if this is true, but just based on the pictures, it looks to me to be a more diverse crowd than just blonde white twinks, which is what I expect out of Los Angeles, and looked actually to be a fairly diverse crowd. I just- I thought that was really hilarious.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So check out ASStrology, [Kyle laughs] y’all In LA, and let me know.

KYLE GETZ  

I have just been going back through and listening to all the Live episodes of My Brother My Brother and Me, the podcast, and, in one, someone-

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s what we should call the episode with my brothers: My Brother My Brother and Me. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Ohh. That’s a really good idea, actually. That’s a really good idea, actually. But one of the questions- or, it came up, like someone said that whenever they ask someone’s sign, whenever someone says their sign- I forget what exactly, but their reaction was something like “Oh no…” which, I think that’s hilarious and I’m going to start doing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oohh.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, like just do some fake- Like, pretend like you-

MIKE JOHNSON

Like a knowing- [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, a knowing response to it. Okay, what I want to get into is- What my question is, especially because I don’t personally care or understand… I get it, I get why- I pulled from articles, as I was reading, why- some of the explanations of why people are into this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Okay, okay.

KYLE GETZ

So, you know, every article says something a little bit different, and I just pulled the ones that I thought were most interesting to me. So first, in NewNowNext, Lindsey Faust, who is- [chuckles] This is not me, this is the article. “Lindsey Faust, a lesbian…” That’s- That’s all she was credited as.

MIKE JOHNSON

Known lesbian.

KYLE GETZ

Known [both laugh] lesbian, Lindsey Faust, who has no other qualities that are important, at least for this article I guess, said, quote, “It’s an assumed common ground,” “I [recently] went to a ‘queer function’ and was asked my sign within 15 minutes.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

So, I think there is very much something to this. As a lesbian [laughs] said. Like, I think there is something to, even though we talked about a higher percentage of people don’t believe than do, but it’s become so associated especially with lesbians that you probably got to know at least your sign or have a little bit to- if you want to make conversation.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, it’s kind of like Drag Race for the gays. Like, I don’t- When I- When that conversation comes up, I have nothing to add. Or I can be like, “Hey, did you know Jinkx Monsoon was on our show?” and like, that seems important to people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like- But I don’t have anything to add.

MIKE JOHNSON  

When it comes to drag queens, when people start throwing around some random-ass name and everybody’s like smiling, and nodding, and excited, it must be a drag queen. [Kyle laughs] Like every time, I’m pretty sure.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, like, it’s kind of, like, a kind of punny name that’s like- You know, yeah. Or, straight people will start to- will talk to me about drag race sometime and I’ll be like, “I don’t know.” [both chuckle] Like, sorry, I have nothing to- Like, I have to inform them. So that’s an interesting part of why someone may- You know, that 25% that doesn’t believe but still looks at their charts. Like, maybe that’s for conversation in queer spaces or something.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Sure, yeah. Spaces.

KYLE GETZ

Spaces.

MIKE JOHNSON

Find us on Spaces, everybody.

KYLE GETZ  

We have one of the biggest groups on spaces.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Get in it, get on it, and then go. Um, quoted in an article I read was, the UK editor of a women’s site, Broadly – that’s the name of the site, Broadly, haha, get it? – uh, the UK editor Tsjeng… [TN: said like “zing”] Tsjeng [TN: said like “sing”] said, quote, “My personal belief is that people tend to turn to mysticism, spirituality and the occult in uncertain times, and I feel that young people, especially, are living in one of the most uncertain times ever, at least in my living memory. There’s an increasing willingness to question the arranged order, break out of pre-defined social norms and look for answers elsewhere.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yeah. I totally get that. Like, that totally, totally makes sense. I think that there’s some part of, like, human existence wants to believe that everything happens for a reason, that there’s meaning, that there is cause, that there is some system, some structure, some… some prime mover, and in the absence of that we will find it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And this is a perfect way to get that kind of warm blanket control structure in your life, to make you feel like the fact that you’re a loser makes sense. [Kyle laughs] I dunno. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. Um, yeah, I mean, especially like when religion- If we are queer- We are queerer than other generations, and we’re getting queerer because it’s more okay, and also religion is the one assaulting us so we’re becoming less religious, it makes sense then what else do you turn for? So I think that kind of explains those- all those weird things that I mentioned at the top, like-

MIKE JOHNSON

It also explains QAnon, Kyle.

MA JOHNSON

That’s true. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, there’s a good part about this, that is not related to astrology necessarily, but I think it is true that people these days are more willing to- Given the state of the world, given the state of the US, people are questioning social norms, people are questioning systemic structures that haven’t been serving us or have been serving cis white people. Like- So, I think that’s true, and I think then one result- Yeah, I think there’s- QAnon, I think- There’s- Astrology comes out of that, I think. There is also, you know, protests and Black Lives Matter came out of that. People’s realization of some of these systemic issues, like, you know, I think there’re a lot of ways that that shows up in society.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

KYLE GETZ

Another one, in AfterEllen, an article by Arielle Soussan, was, quote, “the lesbian appeal to astrology also stems from experience with lesbian drama.” I didn’t say that- This is- I wouldn’t say this, but a lesbian said, so I think it’s fine. [both chuckle] “When we develop complex feelings or break up with our ex for the ninth time, we search for answers from phenomena greater than ourselves and the physical world.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Girl, you should not be breaking up with anybody for the ninth time.

KYLE GETZ  

I’d say right around seven you’re like [Mike laughs] “Huh. Huh. Huh.” Yeah. I break up with people once and don’t talk them, so I do not have this issue. It- But it’s interesting associating, like, lesbian drama with astrology. Again- I mean, again, it is a little bit… “In these troubled times,” like, that-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Three strikes, you’re out! No pussy’s worth that, girl! Stop it!

KYLE GETZ  

Stop it! In a article on The Guardian, in an interview, this writer talks about doing an interview with a young rapper, a man in his early 20s, and he mentioned “I guess I’m a Cancer as well,” “I try to be tough on the outside, but inside, I’m soft as shit.” Which, that made me- I think – and the article pointed out – like, I think Astrology can be a way for maybe even some men to be able to discuss things, like, in the article it was like, oh, we got to a deeper emotional place and could kind of use astrology as the venue to do that, to have that discussion.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Huh. Huh!

KYLE GETZ

Last thing, also back on the AfterEllen article, quote, “lesbians find solace in astrology in order to avoid loneliness. The process of finding others like yourself astrologically mirrors the experience of discovering that other lesbians exist in the world”.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh. Wait, so like, lesbian bars are disappearing because they’re all looking at their charts? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] They’re so busy studying them charts, night after night. It’s interesting, like, finding someone that cares about astrology can mirror the, like, the idea of discovering yourself, discovering a community. Like, I don’t know, there’s- Yeah, there’s got to be some- You know, it mentions- It gets back to the original, like, common- finding common ground for people, discovering any kind of common ground and shared interest is helpful.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. On the Autostraddle article, it gave some people’s direct comments, and people that said they didn’t know or didn’t believe in it, some people were like “Yeah, like, I don’t think it’s real, but if it can-“ just like you said, like, “If you can look at this and make some- and you find value, you bring value to it because it makes you reflect on your day or your month, or it makes you pause and think about things, or something, you can bring value to this.” So I think that’s- I think that’s a really big part of why some people are into it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Some people are all-in and believe it, and whatever, and other people I think roll with it because it does something useful, that’s mindful, that’s thinking-through, and-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I don’t know how this fits, but there’s also the, like… people legit want to understand their relationships through it, right? Like, “I’m a Sagittarius, why is my Cancer husband driving me so crazy?” like, and there’s lots of that kind of stuff that people are trying to dig into.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it- Okay. We talked about like, if things don’t- as long as it doesn’t harm other people, as long as it- Like, is there some kind of negative potential for this to be used in, like, this may show up and are just like, “Oh, it’s our signs,” rather than having a discussion with why your husband is pissing you off? Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, absolutely!

KYLE GETZ

Or does it block you from relationships? Because you’re like, “Oh, no, you’re a- you’re a Sagittarius. I don’t fuck with Sagittarii.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Right. Well, yeah. Yeah. There’s for sure the downside potential of like, sometimes it’s not that he’s a Sagittarius, it’s that he’s an asshole.

KYLE GETZ

Yep. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right? Like, so stop letting him off the hook because of his sign.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Stand up for yourself.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, Leos!

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t… [laughs] We don’t know anything.

KYLE GETZ

I just want to yell at various signs. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Capricorn… I just- I did one. Okay- [Kyle laughs] Uh-  

KYLE GETZ  

That was a good bit. I like that. I like that that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, yeah, and then there is exactly what you said, the corollary of that also of like, “I have to be with a…” fill in the blank.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

“I have to be with a Leo.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And then letting really good, potentially awesome, people pass you by because they don’t fit what you think it has to be, because of this bullshit.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, and now I’m thinking like, on the other side, I saw articles mention like some people on like dating apps will put their sign or whatever, and maybe that, like, then can just spark a conversation. Like, maybe that is like a “Let’s have something to talk about.” Let’s give them something to talk about.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I turned my phone off because I’m a good podcaster. I was gonna check and see if my sign is on my dating profile.

KYLE GETZ  

Oohh! Wait, you- You’re not- You- It’s possible that you put your sign on your profile?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Tinder makes it easy, right? Tinder is like, asks you a bunch of questions, and like, I think it asked, and I think I put mine on there.

KYLE GETZ  

Interesting. I wonder- If it said “What is my sign?” I think I’d say “I hated that movie.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I put something dumb.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, it’s none of your goddamn business, Tinder. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Or I- Or I could say “Ask me,” and then try to spark conversation.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oooh.

KYLE GETZ

And then, when someone asks me, I’d be like “We’re not a match.” [both laughs] It’d just be a venue for me to be mean to people. That’s all I have to talk about.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. Okay, one- So I’m gonna talk about Chinese astrology on the Patreon segment.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Which, that leaves like, all of the white people astrology in the main episode, and we can [chuckles] talk about other kinds of astrology later. So I’ll end- Uh, I’ll end instead with this hilarious thing I found on stylecaster.com about queer astrology, and it’s uh, “Which Queer Icon Are You According To Your Sign?” [TN: Actually “Queer Astrology: The Queer Icon You Are, According To Your Zodiac Sign”]

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I won’t read all of them, but I will focus on ours.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

If you had to guess: which queer icon do you think I am, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

[sighs] This is where, like, I just don’t even- Uh, Neil Patrick Harris. I have no fucking idea.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. Scorpios are… Tilda Swinton. [both laugh] Uh, “Mysterious, entrancing and ever-so-slightly terrifying, Scorpios are known for their emotional depth and shapeshifting abilities. Does that sound like Tilda or what?”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

It keeps going, but- She did say, quote, “I’m from the same planet as David Bowie,” which, that’s pretty- That’s why they look like siblings, maybe?

KYLE GETZ

Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Um but uh, but also she, quite recently, started identifying as queer.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, no way!

MIKE JOHNSON

In 2021 she said it. But then, also, she kind of said it in that “’cause I’m quirky!” kind of way. But she did specifically mention sexuality as part of her queer identity, but that was just one part of a bunch of stuff that was really just off the mainstream. She’s very androgynous, which is like, that’s kind of her brand.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I- Okay. Normally- I think we’ve talked before, when we- Like, last Pride when we talked about the word “queer” and like, “culturally queer,” it’s like… mmm, nah. We were both kinda like “Uh-uh.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. If Tilda Swinton was like “I’m quirky. I’m calling myself queer,” I’d kind of be- and that’s the only reason… she’s so fucking out there, I might be like “Yeah, you get that one. You can- You can go with ‘queer’, because you’re just so fuckin’ weird.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well also, I wouldn’t push back, because I find her terrifying. [both laugh] Like, “You can say wherever you want to, please don’t eat my soul.” Like-

KYLE GETZ  

That’s true. That’s true. She’s like the Björk of acting. You’re like “I don’t understand your anything,” and so that’s fine.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, Sagittariuses- “Sagittarii”?

KYLE GETZ

Sagittar- Sagittariieses.

MIKE JOHNSON

…Are Miley Cyrus.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Because of her unapologetic form of self-expression-

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and fierce queerness. Capricorn is Indya Moore.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, from Pose!

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm. One of the most influential people in the world, according to Time Magazine.

KYLE GETZ

Damn. Get it, Indya.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, but uh, yeah. This says “It took a lot of time and struggle for Indya Moore to rise to success, but they’re here and they ain’t going anywhere!” Uh, Aquariuses- Aquariusi- Aquarii?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, let’s do that for every [laughs] sign.

MIKE JOHNSON

Pamela Coleman-Smith.

KYLE GETZ

I have no idea who that is.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re gonna spend some time on this one, just because. Uh, “A queer, gender-bending artist and mystic of color, Pamela Colman-Smith was way ahead of her time. Born in 1877, she had a keen eye for the future (as many Aquarians do). Her legacy entails designing and illustrating the classic Rider-Waite-Smith tarot deck,” which is one of the- I have a copy of it.

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

“Nicknamed ‘Pixie’, she was a sprightly, creative free spirit—typical of Aquarius people. An unconventional rebel, she was an avant-garde bohemian and activist who reveled in the weird, otherworldly and esoteric concepts that normal people just don’t usually talk about. Through tarot, Pamela built radical new worlds centered on freedom and creativity.” Just- I- I don’t- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s a why or a value that we didn’t mention. Like, in a world where the kind of freedom of expression, the freedom of pursuing your- what feels right, your interest values- I mean, back to, like, especially when it does no harm to anyone, like, that’s a good thing. I want to encourage that kind of thing, and I think of that more as like, you know, value- like, more liberal – socially liberal – kind of values as well. But like, that, you know, those kinds of core concepts that then lead someone to astrology or to tarot, like, that-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I like that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m with you. I’m with you. Pisces is Walter Mercado, who was a- It’s, “What would an article about queer astrology be without [the] one true Walter Mercado? The ultimate Pisces, [Mercado] was a loving, trusting and tender mystic with supernatural abilities and supernatural style.” Just… an interesting, interesting dude. Now we come all the way back around the Zodialogical calendar to Aries.

KYLE GETZ

That’s me!

MIKE JOHNSON

It is you… and this is the end of our friendship.

KYLE GETZ  

[gasps] Am I Taylor Swift?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I got to be- No. I got to be Tilda Swinton, you got to be Lil Nas X.

KYLE GETZ  

[both laugh] Yeah, we have the same birthday. Like, we have the exact same birthday. I mean, not in years, but in date.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. Which, if that doesn’t prove that, like, that the day of your birth isn’t bullshit, I don’t know what does.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Me and Lil Nas X have gone separate paths in our lives that make it clear that Aries is not- does not mean you’re a certain way.

MIKE JOHNSON  

“Lil Nas X is an Aries if ever there was one—a trailblazing hell-raiser who keeps it real and gives no f*cks. Like Lil Nas, bold and unapologetic is the preferred state of being for those born under Aries.”

KYLE GETZ  

“bold and apologe-” I’m soft and apologetic! [both laugh] Like, I’m the exact opposite of this.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. “They aren’t afraid to speak their minds [and] will clap back if you have a problem with it. Independence, innovation and breaking barriers are essential for Aries, and who does it better than our beloved Montero?”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. This is all the shit that always comes up, yeah. We’ll “always clap back”, “unapologetic”, “will always-“ you know, “trailblazing”, all this stuff, and I’m like, “I’m doing Aries wrong.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. [laughs] Uh, and then, I’ll finish the rest of them but not read them. Taurus, y’all Taurus is Cher-

KYLE GETZ

Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

-as the fairy drag-mother of gays. [Kyle laughs] Uh, Gemini is Prince.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, because they’re multi-dimensional and many sided beings.

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Cancer is Sylvia Rivera, because of the way that she takes care of her people, and Leo is Whitney Houston. Leos walk into a room and everyone notices. And Virgo is Freddie Mercury.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, that’s a good one.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. And Libra: Oscar Wilde. Flair and eccentric, and flamboyant.

KYLE GETZ

Aw. Gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And that’s it. That’s all 12.

KYLE GETZ

That’s beautiful.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

I hope you found your person, and that you derive meaning from it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m real mad about Tilda Swinton.

KYLE GETZ

I’m sorry.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Alright. Um, did we do-

KYLE GETZ  

Do you want to trade?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I’ll do that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. Tilda Swinton will sit on your face, and Lil Nas X will sit on mine? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

No. We’re not- [laughs] You want to- We’re not fucking these people, we’re- they’re representing our core.

MIKE JOHNSON

That boy hot.

KYLE GETZ

I would rather be a Tilda Swinton, because like, I would rather just kind of do my own shit and be like, out there and weird.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Lil Nas X doesn’t?

KYLE GETZ  

But like, he’s like, way more-

MIKE JOHNSON

Black? [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

I mean, that’s factually accurate, yes, but I was gonna say like, he’s way more like- With the marketing, he’s like- he’s doing it thoughtfully and purposefully, and like, she seems more just like weird, artistic, kind of like she just has a brain in a different world, that like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. Just how she is?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright. Alright. I’m with you.

KYLE GETZ

Which, I like that. That’s what I want for myself.

MIKE JOHNSON

Did we do it?

KYLE GETZ

Well, we’re gonna talk more about our own signs, and I’m gonna read what the lesbian website Autostraddle says about us there-

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

-and then you’re gonna talk about Chinese astrology. So, more to do but that’s all you get here, everybody.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

Should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON  

What would a Capricorn do?

KYLE GETZ  

They would- They would fart and die. [both chuckle]

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Are you ready?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ  

We had a sit down with our-

MIKE JOHNSON  

If you want to know what Gayish has to do with being a firecock… [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

We are such a big firecock.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I was gonna say “But first.” Wait, that’s not what we do now. We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first…

KYLE GETZ

Okay, okay. I got there.

MIKE JOHNSON

…local gay bar review!

KYLE GETZ

Ooh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, this time I’m talking about the Midnight Sun in San Francisco, California. It is a interesting bar, because it’s kind of skinny and deep, and-

KYLE GETZ

Mmm…

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, okay now. [Kyle laughs] The night that I went there was a karaoke night, and they were having some kind of karaoke competition?

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

So everyone was very much, like, on edge, and being real, like-

KYLE GETZ

Like, eyeing their competitors, and stuff?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. And then, they have this stage, but it was like a legit stage. Like- So you’re up, like, above everybody, singing karaoke. Some of it was very bad. [Kyle laughs] I mean, real, real bad.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Not the first time that I’d been there. I traveled to San Francisco for work fairly regularly, and Midnight Sun is sort of on my rotation. On this particular evening, 4 dildos.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay. What’s it- What would you give the overall bar?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Like, other times that I’ve visited?

KYLE GETZ  

Not one particular time, just overall.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Overall?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Also 4 dildos.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, cool.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, met expectations.

MIKE JOHNSON

Met expectations, yeah. Absolutely. I did make out there once.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

So that was like a 4 1/2 dildo night.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Gotta get that extra half dildo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, exactly.

KYLE GETZ

One thing I want to mention is that we are joining- So, the Two Bad Tourists who were on our last episode about partners: we are going to record for their podcast. So, if you are on Patreon, you are hearing this a day early if you are listening to this in the morning, so right when it comes out you still have time. You can join us on February 15th at 10 AM Pacific, which is 1 PM Eastern. We are chatting with a Two Bad Tourists. Look at our Instagram to find where you can listen live. You can download the app that they use. You can join and listen to us talk to them live. We’ll talk more about traveling, about travel stereotypes, they want to ask about sex tourism because we did that recently. We’ll talk about all that good stuff, so join us then. Or, the episode will come out later as Queer Travel Chat, so probably, by the time most people hear this, it’ll probably be available, maybe. But check out- Look out for that. Queer Travel Chat is the name of the podcast, and we will be on it.

MIKE JOHNSON  

With any luck, they will have heard me saying that they could fuck me, and we’ll do something about it.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh boy. [Mike laughs] I’m gonna just leave for that part.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, somebody texted the hotline today to say that they were pro-Mike! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, there are multiple wrong people in the world, so, you know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Sure. Uhh, is it time for a Gayest & Straightest?

KYLE GETZ

Uhh-

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Nope!

KYLE GETZ

Contact-

MIKE JOHNSON

Our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Our Instagram, where you can find the details of the live listen, is @gayishpodcast, or we’re also on, you know, Facebook, Spaces, Discord, more stuff.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Our hotline, you can send us text messages, or leave us voicemails, or just validate me.

KYLE GETZ

Ehhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ  

Tell me I’m right. Aaand our email’s gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON

Our physical mailing address: Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.

KYLE GETZ  

Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I’ll go.

MIKE JOHNSON

[sighing] Okay, go for it.

KYLE GETZ

My gayest: because we are recording on the Sunday of Super Bowl, I have to make it Super Bowl related.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I found out – or, realized – it was Superbowl weekend on maybe like Monday. Like, earlier this week it was like “The Super Bowl.” I was like, “What the fuck?” So I just- I just had no idea.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

My straightest is, I also didn’t know Rihanna was performing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Like, that’s the part that the gays know about, is, you know, which, like, which gay icon is performing for the Superbowl halftime show, which we consider the main event. Had no idea there was like an ad that was like “Rihanna’s back,” and I was like “Okay, why?” and it was like- and then I was like “Oh, Super Bowl. Oh.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, not knowing that is my straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

What about you?

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m gonna do that thing where it’s okay to order the same thing on the menu as somebody else when you go to lunch.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, I mean- I think- I was just thinking like, Super Bowl has to- Like, we have to get a pass on that week. Our Gayest is definitely going to be Super Bowl.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, well, so my take on it: the straightest was when you and I went and- We actually, we had, like, beverages as friends.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We don’t always- [both laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, but I knew that the Philadelphia Eagles were playing in the Super Bowl. My gayest is, no idea what the other team was, except Rihanna was gonna be there. [both laugh] Uh, a listener’s Gayest & Straightest this time comes to us from our Discord server, and uh, Flax, not to be confused with Dr. Phlox from Enterprise… I’m stalling because I need to pull it up. flax, from our Discord server, says “Straightest: changing the windshield wipers in under 20° weather with no glovess on.”

KYLE GETZ  

Damn, that’s impressive. That’s dang- sounds dangerous.

MIKE JOHNSON  

The “Gayest: laughing out loud at the gym after signing up for the patreon and thinking of how Kyle will say my name”. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Boy, I hope I fucked it up enough that you enjoyed it, but not enough to make you mad. That’s the sweet spot that I gotta find every time.

MIKE JOHNSON

That is the sweet spot-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I know, right?

MIKE JOHNSON  

-said every top to you, ever. [both laugh] Um… That’s it!

KYLE GETZ  

That’s it!

MIKE JOHNSON

This has been Gayish.

KYLE GETZ

This has been Gayish. Thank you to all the Virgos, we love you more than ever.

MIKE JOHNSON

Just you.

KYLE GETZ

And just you.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, and the lesbians.

KYLE GETZ

And the lesbi- Oh, yeah, sorry. Lesbians, queer women, queer nonbinary folks that care a lot about this. I hope you learned somethin’.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I dunno. I also want to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Thomas B, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. [quietly] We actually love you more than the Virgos. Don’t tell the Virgos, they’ll get pissed.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Uh, my chart says we’re done. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ  

I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. See you later.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

MIKE JOHNSON

[sighs]

KYLE GETZ

Aw, what’s going on, buddy?

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]

Gayish: 319 Partners (w/ Two Bad Tourists)

How do you feel about the word ‘partner’? Is it ambiguous? Is ambiguity a good thing? We talk partners with the Two Bad Tourists as they take us on a wild journey through their relationship from boyfriends to husbands to ex-husbands… ish.

In this episode: News- 7:38 || Main Topic (Partners)- 16:56 || Guests (Two Bad Tourists)- 19:43 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:04:47

Mike and Kyle will be LIVE on the Two Bad Tourists’ podcast on Feb. 15 @ 10am Pacific / 1pm Eastern, so look out for more info soon. You can get more from the Two Bad Tourists at their website (https://twobadtourists.com/), and listen to their podcast at https://linktr.ee/queertravelchat.

Check out our appearance Queers in Your Ears wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcast link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s3-e5-gay-stereotypes-with-gayish-podcast/id1541783292?i=1000597806428.

On the bonus Patreon segment, Mike and Kyle delve into their partnership, how it started, and how they feel about it. Bonus audio, video, and lots of other perks available on Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 318 Ghosting

We talk about ghosting at 20:15 if you want to skip ahead to conversations about where the term came from, studies on who gets ghosted and why, and the actual impact on your brain of getting ghosted. But first, the news (starting at 4:29) includes M&Ms/Maya Rudolph, Pete Buttigieg, and the FDA’s new blood donation rules for MSM.

In this episode: News- 4:29 || Main Topic (Ghosting)- 20:15 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:17:05

On the bonus Patreon segment, we look and answer AskReddit questions about ghosting and being ghosted. See all the benefits of Patreon at www.patreon.com/GayishPodcast.

Gayish: 317 Artificial Intelligence

This is what AI came up with as an episode description: Lisa talks to a gay millennial named Will who loves the idea of dating AI. Find it on Apple Podcasts or search for “Gayish” on your podcast app.

(Human editor’s Note: that is not actually what this episode is about. It’s about ChatGPT, homophobia in AI, Alan Turing, the Mechanical Turk, and more.)

In this episode: News- 6:40 || Main Topic (Artificial Intelligence)- 25:23 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:12:53

Patreon reminder! Gaytrons of all levels can join our Patreon Happy Hours (the next one is Feb. 1!), get ad-free episodes, and hear episodes 1 day early. Visit www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast for all the details.

Gayish: 316 Rainbow Elders (w/ Dr. Linda Marchesani)

When was the last time you interacted with someone outside of your generation in the LGBTQ+ community? We have a conversation with our guest, Dr. Linda Marchesani, to talk about the experiences of rainbow elders, gayta on their unique needs, and the importance of connection.

In this episode: News- 2:48 || Main Topic (Rainbow Elders)- 15:31 || Guest (Linda Marchesani from GenPride)-21:13 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:01:19

To learn more about GenPride:

Join Patreon to get lots of great perks. All levels can join our Patreon Happy Hours (the next one is Feb. 1!), get ad-free episodes, and hear episodes 1 day early. Visit www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast for all the details.

Gayish: 315 Sex Tourism

Mike and Kyle take a tour through the world of sex tourism, including stops at Thailand; the Temple of Aphrodite in Cypress; Puerto Vallarta, Mexico; Tangiers, Morocco; and Mike’s recent trip to Palm Springs.

In this episode: News- 8:18 || Main Topic (Sex Tourism)- 22:15 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:27:55

On the bonus segment, we get into more of the origins of sex tourism research and the results of the gayta of what sex workers from Puerto Vallarta said. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 314 Twins (w/ The Zakar Twins)

The Zakar twins, Michael and Zak, join us to talk about coming out to their Catholic-Iraqi mom and stoner dad, being gay and Middle Eastern, their experience with sexual assault while modeling, and their feelings on getting *that* question as a twin (you know the one).

In this episode: News- 7:14 || Main Topic (Twins)- 21:41 || Guests (Michael and Zak Zakar)- 25:52 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:00:39

To get more of the Zakar Twins:
-Follow on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/zakartwins/)
-Follow on TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@zakartwins)
-Buy “Pray the Gay Away” (https://www.amazon.com/Pray-Gay-Away-Michael-Zakar/dp/0692986723/)
-But their latest book, “How to Be Fucking Happy” (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0578937379/)

On the bonus segment, Mike talks about a recent obsession of his, conjoined twins Sohna and Mohna Singh. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 313 Traditions

Black eyed peas in the South. Assorted New Years Eve traditions. Traditional marriage. Gayish traditions. Are traditions helpful or harmful?

In this episode: News- 1:17 || Main Topic (Traditions)- 15:37 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:06:00

On the bonus segment, Mike explains how the tradition of Pride was almost on New Year’s Eve instead of June. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.