Gayish: 309 Selfies

Are people who take selfies narcissist? Why do gays love selfies? Are we willing to die for selfies?

In this episode: News- 2:35 || Main Topic (Selfies)- 17:11 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:15:35

On the bonus segment, Mike and Kyle learn tips to improve their selfie game, and they take some selfies to see if it worked. Get bonus segments every Friday and other great benefits by joining at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello everyone in the podcast universe, this is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ  

The podcast where life always finds a way… to fuck you over. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Amen to that, brother. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…

KYLE GETZ  

Today we’re talking about selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re talking about selfies!

KYLE GETZ

God, I don’t want to- Do we have to do this episode?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes! Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Yes, I’m excited.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Otherwise…

KYLE GETZ

We would be very quiet.

MIKE JOHNSON

…we would be unemployed. [Kyle laughs] Which, thank you for that episode. I’m not Sarah, everybody.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, yeah! Welcome back. [Mike laughs] You- So far, you’re- This is your test run to decide if we want you to keep cohosting, or, you know, if we’re gonna go a different direction.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well Kyle, I like to think of an interview as me interviewing you, in return. We’re interviewing each other. 

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, dual co-interviews?

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

What if neither of us make the cut? [both laugh] We just leave, we just go home.

MIKE JOHNSON

It can be the Derek show after this, I guess. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Uh, welcome back, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Thanks. Yeah, I’ve been all over the world.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, like, [laughing] literally all over the world.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Do you- Oh, we’re gonna record our Patreon bonus episode soon, so that’s where you can hear our personal news updates, because we do that on the bonus episode every month.

MIKE JOHNSON

Look at you, shilling successfully. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

See? I’m doing good in my interview. I’m nailing my interview. You’re doing… fine. You’re doing- You’re meeting expectations, so far.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s really all I wanted.

KYLE GETZ

Right? [both chuckle]

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, happy Thanksgiving, everybody! If you’re hearing this now, it’s Thanksgiving. If you’re not hearing it now, it’s later. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, that was funny, you got your job. That was good. That’s really useful information that you provided. Umm, yeah. I hope you’re either enjoying your family, or avoiding your family, or you’ve found your chosen family, and that you are-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Wherever you are, or who you’re with, feel bad about colonialism.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeahhh. Let’s feel bad about colonialism together!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Doing it.

KYLE GETZ

And be very full.

MIKE JOHNSON

Doing it right now.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Current- Actively feeling- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

We don’t have any feedback, or corrections.

KYLE GETZ

Well, we surely do in our inbox, but not from our mouths to your ears.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, so, here come-

KYLE GETZ

From a babe’s mouth, to the lips, ears.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Here comes the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so I’ve been- I’ve been out of the country, did I miss anything?

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, God, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

We- We have to- We have- We have to- We have to talk about…

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

We have to talk about Club Q, and it’s gonna be sad. News the first: Club Q.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

More- Yet another- Yet another mass shooting in a queer space in this fucked-up stupid-ass country filled with dickbags.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, yeah- [sighs] Yeah. At least five people were killed, and more than 20 people were injured as a gunman entered the Club Q queer venue and safe space in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And, um, this was Saturday, so just last weekend, and um, [sighs] of course everybody’s having repeat feelings of the Pulse club shooting in Orlando.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, I- [sighs] I don’t- I don’t know- I don’t know what to do, Kyle. I don’t know what to say.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the second- No, I- [chuckles] Like, it’s horrific, and terrible, and clearly clearly motivated by hate. Um-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, it was a MAGA republican’s son or something, that, like- It is so- It’s frustrating because we see the direct connection, we know exactly what’s happening. It’s horrific, and shocking, and terrifying, and also so easy to draw the direct line between what Republicans are saying about us, and the violence against us, but it’s such a helpless feeling. I think that’s part of why, like- I mean, people have already given so many of their takes as it happened, so that’s part of it, but also, like, it’s such a powerless feeling, and what do you say? Like, there’s nothing that makes any of this better, and nothing on an individual level that I can go and do. I mean, the most I can do is try to say something meaningful, but I have nothing meaningful to say. It’s just a helpless, horrible feeling, that you just- I don’t know. You just feel trapped and, like, that’s just what has to happen. Like, it just feels like there’s no way out of this, and it sucks.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, um, [chuckles] it’s really… hopeless… feeling.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I agree. Apparently- Apparently the gunman was subdued by people in the club, and, one of which was a drag queen who apparently, like, stood on him with her heels.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So I’m loving the memes going around about, like, a drag queen could do what dozens and dozens of Uvalde police officers with multimillion-dollar budget couldn’t.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other one was, like, an Army vet that, like, subdued him. So- I mean, that part of it is like, we take care of ourselves, we have to, because other people are not taking care of our community right now. So like, to me, that’s one of the reminders. People are walking- are invading our spaces and making places – everywhere; online, bars, political arenas – like, are making us more and more unsafe every day. And we have to- We have to look out for our community, unfortunately, and- because others won’t.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Um… I dunno, I- I did, like, the only thing I could think of to do. Like, I posted in the Facebook group, and it was just like, “Your existence is an act of resistance.” I think, when you feel helpless, reminding yourself that to whatever degree you’re able to be out or be yourself, like, whatever that means to you, remind- I have to remind myself, like, my existence, my being open about being gay, my being authentic, is part of, like, an action that is resistance. So, it’s not that I’m doing nothing, I am and existing, and existing- or, working to find happiness, working on your own personal happiness, that is also resistance, because that is something they do not want us to have.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So – and, you know – I went to a gay bar last night with a friend, so that was kind of a… I just wanted to be like, “Fuck you. You don’t get to decide where I feel safe, and if I get to go out.” And, I don’t know, that was kinda- took my dog for a walk, that was like my trying to care for myself.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I like that. I went out and got laid.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s resist- [Mike laughs] I mean, fucking is resistance, right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Did you really?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Who?

MIKE JOHNSON

In Buenos Aires.

KYLE GETZ

What’s his- What’s his name?

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m not gonna go into that right now.

KYLE GETZ

Describe his body, [Mike laughs] from the top to the bottom.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well- Okay, first of all, why are we talking about this now? That’s- Anyway. Uh, older. He’s older than me. That’s not a thing I do.

KYLE GETZ  

Oooh, that’s rare!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

See our episode about younger guys with Davey Wavey.

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Is this the right time to be plugging ourselves like this? [laughing] That’s- That’s gross that I just did that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Or- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Or maybe it is. Listen to gay shit, and do gay shit, and feel good about-

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, I think getting fucked is resistance. Oh, I don’t know what you did specifically, but whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was resisting. [laughing]

KYLE GETZ  

As part of consensual BDSM play? [Mike continues laughing] Okay, just wanted to make sure- make- add the consensual part, for- What are we doing? We’re avoiding-

MIKE JOHNSON  

To wrap this horrific story up: I agree with you.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] End of- Great! End of podcast, we don’t need to do any more. Sorry. Okay, what were you actually saying?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Be happy. Do something gay and be happy, because that’s what they hate the most, I think is- is hard to grab on to, but valuable. And, so, let’s try to do a gay-ass podcast and have some laughs or something.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, I mean, is selfies gonna be a fun topic? It’s not gonna be, for me. I forgot that I actually have to talk about this now. But, yeah. Well, yeah, we’ll do some gay shit together.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, great. [both snort] News the second?

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. News the second: So, there were seven European soccer teams that are doing the FIFA World Cup right now, who wanted to wear pro-LGBTQ+ armbands on the field, and uh-

KYLE GETZ  

The fact that you described playing soccer as “doing” soccer- [laughing] Like, just- Like, “they’re doing the FIFA,” or whatever you said.

MIKE JOHNSON  

They’re- Yeah. They’re, you know, they’re doing it.

KYLE GETZ

They’re doing FIFA, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh- But FIFA said “We will give you a yellow card if you do that,” so the European Football Association released a statement that advised players, quote, “not to attempt to wear the armbands in FIFA World Cup games,” and the FIFA officials have said that they have zero tolerance of the One Love campaign, which, those are the armbands that they wanted to wear. They said “ONE LOVE” on them. They have already been used in the past, so Harry Kane, who’s one of the English players, who’s on England’s team, had worn one against Iran. No, I am lying to you. It was the opener against Iran that was the one that they were threatened with being penalized for. A yellow card is used to caution players, and a red card means that they get kicked out of the game. And, uh- So, instead he wore one that says “NO DISCRIMINATION”. Where did my picture of that go? I had a picture of this thing.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s helpful for this audio podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well, he did wear an armband and that one was approved, but instead of being a One Love and rainbows, like, gay shit on it, it’s just black and it says “NO DISCRIMINATION”. And- Which is fine. You’re doing something, and we know, but, you know, apparently your rainbow was too much for FIFA and the host country of Qatar. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I can’t. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

I can’t either, but I’ve been listening a lot to like, how the fuck do you fucking say that country?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it’s- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s the best I can approximate. Qatar.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I mean, I struggle with people that are even attending this, like, the teams themselves. If all the team said “We are not playing in this,” they would have to change it. Like, they could get together, and they have the power to do something, and they have decided not to. Which, I mean, you worked so hard for something in your life, I’m not trying to diminish the fact that people have worked and that that could risk them not getting to play in this thing that they worked so hard for, but also, it’s real fucked up that they picked a country that doesn’t allow people to be gay and are pretending like that’s us being intolerant.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And have used slave labor to set up the- to build the place. I don’t know too much about that, other than that. But like, it’s just real fucked up, and, I mean, just like a lot of things, like, people have the power if they wanted to, and even wearing an armband is- Like, take the fucking yellow card! I don’t know. I’m frustrated by everything in life, including this.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Enjoy your $8.50 nonalcoholic beers, you fuckers.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I just- Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah, take the yellow card and then behave, maybe, is one way to do that. So, a statement released to Reuters said, quote, “FIFA has been very clear that it will impose sporting sanctions if our captains wear the armbands on the field of play. As national federations, we can’t put our players in a position where they could face sporting sanctions including bookings, so we have asked the captains not to attempt to wear the armbands in FIFA World Cup games.” And, just- Maybe just don’t play at all? I- I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s also just a game, at the end of the day. Like, I know that there’s lots of money wrapped up in professional sports, and blah blah blah, and bliggity blahggity, but, like, fuck.

KYLE GETZ  

It’s a game, and this is our lives.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly. Exactly.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well-

KYLE GETZ

But- I mean, like, the trouble I get into is like, that can be so many things. Like, I shouldn’t buy anything from China then because of the labor that they use to make that is so- Like, I don’t know, they’re- Like, you could- To be- To pay attention to every single issue in the world, and be kind of this model person that follows and doesn’t- Like, it is so difficult because things can be so shitty, and there’s- No one is- When you exist within this system, that, like- How do you participate in this capitalist, systemically racist system in a way that makes you feel good? I don’t know. I get that it’s difficult, but, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s not. I- This is what I go back and forth. Or maybe just don’t fucking play at this, and say fuck you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody! [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Merry fucking Thanksgiving! Eat your fucking turkey!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, Jesus. Pass out already. [Kyle laughs] Okay, news the last.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think- I think It’s a happy story, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

The fact that you’re not sure of it has me worried!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um… Grindr has made its [Kyle laughs] public debut on the New York Stock Exchange, on Friday-

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

-with an opening price of $16.90 a share. It closed at $71.50.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

Apparently- Yeah. The ticker symbol is GRND, and, yeah, apparently people are bullish on us fuckin’. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Great, they have high hopes. Well, I think they have high hopes for spending a bunch of time- Like, you make more money if we spend a bunch of time there and don’t find someone, like, ‘cause then they get to serve their ads more. So, I think they’re bullish on the- the [laughs] hopelessness that is [Mike laughs] searching for dating in the gay world. God, I- I ruined this story that you wanted to be happy.

MIKE JOHNSON

They just- They just know that we can’t quit Grindr.

KYLE GETZ

Mm. Oh, well I can ‘cause I’m not allowed on it. So, they- My hand was forced. My dick was forced.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s right. Well, maybe you should buy some shares then, [laughs] and see if that’ll get you back on the platform.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, but then, this is another thing where it’s like, okay but if you use Grindr, like, the CEO has- is both gay and has, like, talked about voting Republican, like, and is right wing. Like, wha- So then, do you not use Grindr? It’s like, everything in our lives is- Okay, no. It’s happy! People are buying the stock! Cool! Grindr’s on the market! [Mike laughing] Hook up! I don’t-…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, God. We did it. [both laughing]

KYLE GETZ  

That’s the end of the news.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Successful. Successful. Yeah, uh-

KYLE GETZ

…Ssssspeaking of other people, is that really-

MIKE JOHNSON

No, the other hookup apps that are on the NYSE are Match and Bumble, which I didn’t know until this ‘cause those are for straight people and I don’t read the news about them. But uh, yeah, apparently Grindr had 11 million monthly users last year, and had a revenue growth of 30%, and it’s just- it’s really- it’s really interesting. There are very few stock ticker symbols that are that overtly and openly queer.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, and especially queer sex, like, that like sexual of a company is very interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. And plus, if it’s GRND, like, how many people think it’s “grind,” or, like, “ground,” or, what else could they might- Tatley-Grund, the elevator company? I just- I love the idea of, like, Republicans investing in Grindr not knowing what the ticker symbol means.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s part of a portfolio, [Mike laughs] and they accidentally own, like- They- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Alright, that’s the news!

KYLE GETZ  

Um, speaking of people I’m bullish on, I would like to thank the following Patreon members. Why did- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Why did what happen?

KYLE GETZ

I- I heard myself say it, but like, in a delay, but not really, just in my head. I heard my sentence and I got confused. It’s okay. I’m here. I’m here, and I’m excited, and I’m happy to be here, [Mike laughs] and everything’s wonderful. Thank you to: Beth McColl-

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks, Beth.

KYLE GETZ

Thanks, Beth. Uh, James McQuillen, probably? Uh, josue Daniel Martinez-

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooo!

KYLE GETZ

Whoa! And Ben KyleCan’tPronounceThisName.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Wait, is that what they wrote down?

KYLE GETZ

That’s what they wrote down.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughing] Yes!

KYLE GETZ

All one word. KyleCan’tPronounceThisName. Thanks, Ben!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes, Ben! Ben. Ben. Ben.

KYLE GETZ

Thank you. Join Patreon if you want. Patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do it.

KYLE GETZ

Um, do you want to talk about selfies?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s talk about selfies.

KYLE GETZ  

Do you- I mean-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, first.

KYLE GETZ

First.

MIKE JOHNSON

The reason we did this episode-

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

-I forgot, [Kyle chuckles] until just now.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s because we got a bunch of photographs taken. Which, they came back and they are adorable, and so we’re gonna post some to our socials.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They’re not selfies, they’re photographs, but that got us talking about photographs, and photography, and-

KYLE GETZ

and selfies is kind of gay. Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Selfies is kind of gay, especially if the mirror is dirty and you’ve got no clothes on. But-

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, you- Oh my god, [Mike laughs] a top with no shirt and a dirty mirror is gonna fuck so good.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re right.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Um, they just got, like, shit all over their sink counter, and it’s just like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, not literal shit. That’s-

KYLE GETZ

No, don’t- This is your PSA: don’t poop in your sink. [Mike laughs] Mike, let’s do better. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Who are we?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s be better and do better. This is our first time being in person in a long time.

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s also my fault ‘cause we’re recording on Monday instead of Sunday, because I was a zombie person yesterday after time zone bullshit.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, the time zone bullshit’s still strong, but-

KYLE GETZ  

I don’t know what my excuse is.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, yeah, we- And we’ve done things like- When a magazine interviewed us, they wanted to like, include us, and they were like, “Can you send us photos?” and it was like, “No, we cannot.” [both laugh] Someone actually just asked me for like a hi-res photo of myself, and I was like, I- So now we finally have things. So, that was a very useful thing, that we should’ve had. I feel like – okay, this relates to selfies and just gays in general – I feel like most gays put on this image of themselves. I think most other gay podcasts would have done this kind of thing to – I don’t know – because they want- because they’re a little bit narcissistic, or they want to pretend like they’re amazing, or they want any excuse to take nice photographs. Like, we’re five and a half years in and we’re like, “We should have pictures of us available.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. [both laugh] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, I just feel like that’s part of the thing that I don’t fit, of like, wanting to have pictures of myself, or, like- I don’t know. I just don’t- This is not something I relate to about the gay community.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well, and then, when our absolutely adorable photographer got here, and, [Kyle chuckles] like, whipped his camera out, both of us were like, “Oh, that’s- I don’t- I don’t like that.”

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, “That’s uncomfortable.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, it’s like-

MIKE JOHNSON

We clearly are bad at this. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Like, “Hey, I’m hot, I’m taking a picture of you,” and you’re like “What? Why?” Like, I don’t know-

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, thank you, to that- I didn’t- I mean- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

What?

KYLE GETZ

I hated looking at our pictures.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, okay. Well great. [Kyle laughs] I think they’re adorable.

KYLE GETZ  

Sure. You be the judge, listener.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, I will be the judge.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, Mike will be- Mike has judged.

MIKE JOHNSON

They’re adorable.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

I- Okay. Who are we, why are we here?

KYLE GETZ  

You’re doing- You’re probably doing the history.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m gonna talk about the history of selfies, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ

That’s the dumbest sentence I’ve ever heard, [Mike laughs] but go on.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well-

KYLE GETZ

Sarah, where are you? [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so first, I definitely want to calibrate on, what’s a selfie, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

I knew you would! God. Mike, we all know what a selfie is!

MIKE JOHNSON

What is it?

KYLE GETZ

It’s a picture you take yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON  

A picture you take of yourself. Do you have to operate the camera, or just be the- Like, if it’s on a timer, does that count?

KYLE GETZ  

Is this interesting, [laughs] is my big question.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think it is.

KYLE GETZ

If it- You do? Okay. Alright. Sure. Um-

MIKE JOHNSON

If I didn’t think it was interesting I wouldn’t talk about it, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, you- You think everything you talk about is interesting?

MIKE JOHNSON  

[chuckles] Yes. Our pictures are fine, and I am amazing. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Huh. Okay. I guess- You know what? Alright. That’s fine. [chuckles] Okay- It is specifically, like, when you are holding the camera in your phone – nope – you’re holding the camera in your hand, and you’re taking a picture yourself. So it’s not, set it down and let me back away, it’s, like, you’re holding the phone in your hand and you’re taking a picture yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Predominantly to post onto social media. That’s what I think of a selfie as.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

What do you think of a selfie as?

MIKE JOHNSON

[sighs]

KYLE GETZ

Wow, that’s too deep a sigh for the definition of the word “selfie”. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, I definitely- I agree with you. Like, the modern definition of the word “selfie” is a smartphone, likely, taking a photograph with it in your hand as the executor. Although, selfie sticks count, even though you’re not touching the device, you’re touching a device that’s touching the device. Anyway. And yeah, that’s largely what the implied meaning is now, or whatever, but we’ve only had the ability to do that for so long, but we’ve been taking pictures of ourselves, like, since the very first day that photographs could be taken it’s been happening. And the guy that is largely given credit for inventing the selfie, [Kyle chuckles] taking a photograph of himself, is a dude named Robert Cornelius.

KYLE GETZ  

[in an old-timey, uptight, British(?) voice] Robert Cornelius!

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yep.

KYLE GETZ

God, he had generational wealth for sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, did he?

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah?

KYLE GETZ

[doing the voice again] I’m Robert Cornelius, I have a photograph and opinions on the lower class.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, he’s American, so, you can- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[still doing the voice] And he’s- But he still talked like this! [speaking normally] And everyone’s like, “Who are you, Frasier? Like, why do you talk like that?”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Why did he have an accent?

KYLE GETZ

[chuckling] I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nobody knows. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Anyone who’s done like Shakespeare, like, who- Like, people in Star Trek that also have like weird accents that you’re like, “You’re from Missouri. Like, you’re fine,” [Mike laughs] and you know what? I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So, he took the first- he took the selfie in 1839.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

And the reason I think it counts as a selfie-

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

-is there was no timer.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

He actually had to, like, push the button on the camera, but it wasn’t a button. He made a daguerreotype. He had to, like, operate the camera manually, but it took so long to take pictures he just set the camera up, opened the lens, and then walked in front of the camera, and then had to stand still for – it’s estimated – at least three minutes, but more likely 10 to 15 minutes, perfectly still, to take this selfie.

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. And that’s, like- Even if it’s just three minutes, that’s a long time. To demonstrate how long that feels, we’re gonna be silent for three minutes, [Mike laughs] starting… now!

[6 seconds pass, with hushed laughter]

MIKE JOHNSON

[both laughing] I wager- I’m gonna wager that you think this is more interesting than me talking about anything that I have on my notes here. So.

KYLE GETZ

That’s the- I just realized [Mike laughing] that that’s the meanest insult I’ve ever accidentally done to you, and I’m kind of proud of myself.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m proud of you too. Oh, that’s- that’s great.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] Instead of whatever Mike’s saying. [Mike laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God.

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, no, no, I’m with you. I’m excited. You seem to be picking up on the timer thing as like a big- an important aspect of selfies, which I don’t think of, like, caring whether there’s a timer or not.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I think that I keep running into the word “selfie” being used to mean any picture in which the owner of the camera is in it, regardless of how it was taken, and it kind of frustrates me, because I’m pedantic and that shit pisses me off.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So people are like, “Let’s take a selfie,” and then they set their phone up, and they put the timer on, and then they hit it, and then they get in a big group photo. That’s not a fucking selfie, it’s a group photo that you took with a timer!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

You whore.

KYLE GETZ  

I- [laughs] Wow. [Mike laughs] But, you can take a selfie with, like, with one other person. Like, how many people before it’s not a selfie?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, okay, okay. This is- I meant to talk about this later.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, sorry. We can- We can go in your order.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, no, no, no.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No. So- So “selfie”-

KYLE GETZ  

3 minutes is up… now! [chuckles] I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. Great. Huawei Technologies, which is a company that makes cell phones in China-

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

-actually [chuckles] owns the trademark on the term “groufie”- 

KYLE GETZ  

Ewwww.

MIKE JOHNSON  

-because they were trying to say that any selfie that is of a group of people is a groufie, and they- they trademarked it in 2014. That’s about when the modern use of the word “selfie” was becoming all the rage.

KYLE GETZ

2014? Huh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. They say 2012 or 2013 is like the year of the selfie, in terms of, like, it entering the lexicon.

KYLE GETZ

I thought it was before that.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, uh, Huawei- [chuckles] Huawei trademarked the term “groufie” to mean more than just the person taking the picture in it. And another term, that Samsung tried to trademark, was a “wefie”. Like, “We are taking a selfie,” it’s a we-fie. Those are awful and you should not have paid for them, either company.

KYLE GETZ  

Nooo. No. But like, when you’re a big company that has bunch of money, like, I would probably just trademark random shit. I would, like, mash letters like I’m a cat walking over a keyboard, and be like, “Cool. This is what I’m trademarking now, because I’m bored and have tons of money. I’m a corporation.” [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. They’ve got to park all these domains-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and hope that somebody- somebody named Woodriblahblah [Kyle laughs] becomes really famous someday.

KYLE GETZ  

Ah, he’s my new favorite musical artist, is Woodrbvbahbadah. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Woodriblahblah.com; I own it, bitch. Deal with that.

KYLE GETZ  

Can you imagine the frustration, where you’re like, “No one will have my domain. It’s me, Woodrbabahbadablah”? [both laugh] Um, I had the same question about sex: How many people until it’s a group… or a groufie?

MIKE JOHNSON

Three.

KYLE GETZ

I think it’s four. I don’t think three is a group.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Because we have a name for it, and that’s “a threesome”?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, kind of. But still, I think- That doesn’t feel groupish to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Alright.

KYLE GETZ

I think it has to be four- I’ve said this about the porn one before, if you are looking for group sex and you find three people, like, you’re kind of annoyed, you know?

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Okay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s like, that’s- Wait- No, I- Group. So I think that’s a good measure of, like, what’s a group. I think it has to be four or more.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Is- Okay.

KYLE GETZ

There’s gonna be a poll on our Instagram about if- [laughs] what constitutes a group.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. How many people do you need to take pictures of a group sex situation?

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] How many times can you say “groufie” before it catches on? [Mike laughs] The limit does not exist.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, no. Stop trying to make fetch happen. [Kyle laughs] Umm… Okay, okay, okay, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, to your point that you just made a little bit ago-

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] I made a point somewhere in there?

MIKE JOHNSON

-the first use of the word selfie in anywhere that we can find was on an Australian Internet forum on 13th of September 2002.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s a guy named Karl Kruszelnicki.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, that’s pretty much what we were saying! [Mike laughs] Like, that’s- Someone named him by mashing the keyboard for sure.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. It was a Polish keyboard, but yes. [Kyle laughs] Um, but he runs the Dr Karl’s Self Serve Science Forum- [TN: Self Service, not Self Serve]

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

-and a dude named Nathan Hope posted to that forum, and said, quote, “Um, drunk at a mates 21st, I tripped…” “…and landed lip first (with front teeth coming a very close second) on a set of steps. I had a hole about 1cm long right through my bottom lip. And sorry about the focus, it was a selfie.” That’s the earliest we can find.

KYLE GETZ  

God, if I invented something as big as the word “selfie”, or I’m the first, like, thing you find, I’d be bragging. Like, that would be in my Twitter bio. I would be, like, bragging about.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, somebody tracked Mr. Hope down – Nathan Hope down – and asked him, and he said “I did not coin the term.” He said, quote, it was “something that was just common slang at the time, used to describe a picture of yourself.” So we don’t actually- Like, nobody invented it. It was enough- It was invented enough that he just threw it out there in this forum post and figured that people would already know what he meant.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Man, good for him, being honest. I- God, I- No, I- I don’t know. I would- I just want…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, if somebody comes to you and says, “Did you make this cultural phenomenon happen? We think you did,” then say “Yes.” [laughing]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Oh, you have proof- You have no proof that anyone else said it before?

MIKE JOHNSON & KYLE GETZ

[in unison] Then yes!

MIKE JOHNSON

I did that! Fuck you, pay me! [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

I was just gonna say, like, I want attention and recognition enough that I would probably say yes to that, but I don’t know if that’s true or if that’s just fake-me talking right now.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay, so, there is- Going back to the history stuff, and then I’ll end the segment. There was a woman in the year… we think it was 1900, we don’t know her name, but it’s a very, very old picture, and she is holding a camera taking a picture of herself via a mirror. And, if you don’t think that dude, the first dude, Cornelius, took the- if you don’t think that counted is a selfie because he walked away from the camera, this bitch was actually holding the camera, pushed the button, picture of herself in a mirror. So we’ve been doing this shit for 122 years or whatever, so.

KYLE GETZ  

We always say that gay culture comes- like, starts with women or something.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Right?

KYLE GETZ

Like, a woman was the first gay man to take a picture [laughs] in the mirror.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughing] Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, there’s a dude named Thomas Eakins who did a bunch of work. It’s controversial whether he was gay or not, but his- a lot of his photography was of naked dudes, and naked dudes doing stuff. He took a whole bunch of selfies in which he was posing with a woman, and that has led to a lot of academic analysis of, like, “Was this dude gay, or not?” and I think it’s interesting. We make this point all the time; nobody seems to be asking the question, “Well, maybe he was bi?” But he took a lot of pictures of naked people, and- including himself. A lot of- A lot of- But that’s the first, like, probably gay naked-selfie-taker that I could find in all of the history of it.

KYLE GETZ

Hm, Interesting. When was that?

MIKE JOHNSON

His name is Thomas Eakins, and his- most of his career was started in the in the 1870s. A lot of the stuff that I’m talking about with the nudity, and the ladies, and stuff, was in 1883, and uh-

KYLE GETZ

1883…

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s a long time ago.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Boy howdy. [Kyle chuckles] [Mike sighs] Well, you know- As long as- Every media form, at least every visual media form, the dicks have led, fairly early on.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Dicks and boobs have been like-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-at the vanguard, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yep. Yep, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ummm, okay. In 1934, a Swedish couple use a wooden stick to take a picture of themselves, [Kyle gasps] and the New York Times called that the original selfie stick.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I-

MIKE JOHNSON

Go ahead.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I say that a selfie stick is a dildo.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s the funniest joke you’ve written.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

I think about that all the time.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes. I find you mildly amusing most of the time-

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] At times. Okay, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and that is fucking hilarious. Um- Oh, okay. The OED picked- So, then, all of the stuff that I was saying about this blog, and the invention of the word, it was added to the OED in 2013. It was officially added as a Scrabble word, and that’s how you know you’ve made it-

KYLE GETZ

Wow, even scrabble.

MIKE JOHNSON

-in 2014.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh, it’s been with us ever since. Duck faces, and apparently bear faces, and all. 

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. We just learned about bear- I did not know about “bear face” until Derek informed me today.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I’m gonna have to practice both, I guess, now.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I didn’t know bears had a face.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do photo booths count?

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. That- [Kyle laughs] Now we don’t have to talk about Japanese culture in the 90s, or the fact that the Gameboy had a selfie camera on it.

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway-

KYLE GETZ  

Do you count photo booths?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t think so.

KYLE GETZ

It’s just such a specific, different, thing. When I think “selfie”, that’s not what I’m picturing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Right. Yeah. And selfies also are sort of- The modern connotation of the word “selfie” is sort of attached to social media,

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and photos have been around for fucking ever, so I have a hard time thinking that they count because of that.

KYLE GETZ  

Did the word “selfie” run away from us when boomers started hearing about it? Like, I could picture that being something, like, we were using in a specific way, and then boomers hear about something and they’re like, [doing an old person voice] “Oh, look, I took a selfie,” and it’s a photo of their dog or something.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So if you think of a- the success of a selfie as being tied to how it did on Twitter, [Kyle chuckles] the two biggest selfies that caught this wave were: Barack Obama took a selfie and posted it to Twitter the night that he was elected-

KYLE GETZ

Oooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and then Ellen DeGeneres took a selfie with a fuck-ton of celebrities in the background when she hosted the Oscars. So, they’re not quite boomer, right?

KYLE GETZ

Right.

KYLE GETZ

But they’re definitely- they weren’t spring chickens. They weren’t teenagers, Snapchatting around. Like, they-

KYLE GETZ  

They weren’t A-list like Selena Gomez.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So they- [laughs] They sort of- Yeah, selfies, I think, maybe that’s when they jumped the shark. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm, mhm. Hm! Can I tell you some of the gayta?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I want to hear the gayta.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, this is-

MIKE JOHNSON

Are selfies gay?

KYLE GETZ

Are selfies gay? I don’t- [both laugh] That’s an interesting question, Mike, the question I’m gonna answer.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, are selfie-takers narcissistic?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yes. Great segment. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Honestly. Honestly, if we wanted to boil it down. Okay, so I looked up- I’m gonna tell you about some of the studies and some of the journeys that I took along the way to some information. So, I don’t- This is- Thank you for that history, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

I appreciate you, and your segments.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re welcome. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Because now, here, I’m about to do something that’s like, this is interesting to me, and maybe not anyone, [chuckles] so I can’t be too mean. I was just very mean to you about your choices, but I’ve made choices too.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Here’s the thing: they’re gonna continue.

KYLE GETZ  

I know, right? [Mike laughs] For both of us. Um, look, during our segment I drew a fish. Okay! Umm, so-

MIKE JOHNSON

Is it taking a selfie?

KYLE GETZ

It- No, I colored- I don’t know what it is. Or it could be a lady dancing. [gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Is it a Jesus fish?

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yeah. Oh, that’s the other update, I’ve converted.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Umm, studies. This is- Apparently it is, like, a big thing, in the 10s and 20s of this millennia – that sounds weird to say – in this decade and the previous one, people have been doing a lot of research into whether people that take selfies are narcissistic.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And, I learned a little bit about narcissism in general. I didn’t- I was unaware that there are, like, not- There’s a narcissistic personality disorder.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But different than that, just as a personality trait, is narcissism, and that’s what I’m talking about, not the disorder.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, we’re all narcissistic, right? It’s a spectrum. Like, it’s just a- It’s only a problem if it gets past the level of you being an asshole.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I mean, there’s a healthy level of narcissism, of caring about yourself, and like that’s useful. There are two types that are, like, maybe there are a bunch more types, but studies broke down the- typically they were focused on grandiose narcissists, which is the kind that you generally think of.

MIKE JOHNSON

[fake coughs] Trump.

KYLE GETZ

Elon Musk. [Mike chuckles] Um, yep. Things that characterize them: aggression, dominance, superiority, entitlement. These are all the words that definitions would use for that. The other type though that they mentioned, I did not think of this, they’re kind of different venues to narcissism. One is, vulnerable narcissism.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooo.

KYLE GETZ

Also called hypersensitive narcissism, or covert narcissism. It is hypersensitivity to the opinions of others, and intense desire for approval, defensiveness for any kind of critique. There- It’s almost like- It felt, to me, I was like, [doing a nasally voice] “Eugh, I… have this.” [Mike laughs] There’s like a- There’s a self-centeredness to social anxiety that I have, is like “Oh, everyone’s watching me.” There is, like, some level of, like, narcissism. I was like, “No, not everyone is watching you or gives a shit about all the things you do day-to-day.” There’s a weird- It’s weird, because I both have a very low – generally, I’m working on it – low opinion of myself, but also think that everyone cares about me, or is staring at me, or whatever. So I’ve- This is the first time I’ve seen like a definition that is, like- combines those in, like, the way that kind of makes sense to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, sure, okay.

KYLE GETZ

So, this is more focused on the grandiose narcissists.

MIKE JOHNSON

The ones we think of.

KYLE GETZ

The ones you think of, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The study “‘Selfie-ists’ or ‘Narci-selfiers’?:” – wow, that’s a mouthful – “A cross-lagged panel analysis of selfie taking and narcissism”, in 2016, they proposed there was a self-reinforcement effect, and that narcissistic individuals take selfies more frequently over time, and that increase in taking selfies raises their level of narcissism. So it’s this feedback loop that increases both narcissism and the number of selfies that they take.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Another study, called “Narcissism and problematic use of social media: A systematic literature review”, [TN: Proper title is “Narcissism and problematic social media use: A systematic literature review”] in 2020, talked about some of the reasons that social media is good for grandiose narcissists, is they have control over their presentation, so you are, unlike a social interaction, you are in complete control over what you are presenting to people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

You advertise your success, and- You can advertise your success, and you get visible rewards in response.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it’s accessible because so many of us have phones, with the internet, you can do it from wherever. So you can get this kind of validation wherever you are.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

So, generally, like, I’ve looked at a bunch of different studies, and generally, like, yes. The answer is yes, people- when you take selfies it is- people are- People that take selfies are narcissistic.

MIKE JOHNSON  

What surprises me about all of that though is the feedback loop. Like, the fact that it’s not just, like, this is a thing narcissists are drawn to, but that it’s a thing that can make them worse-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-or maybe make a person who isn’t narcissistic enough to be an asshole, become an asshole.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s- I don’t know. In my head, I have this, like, weird – not weird – I have this belief that, like, people are just fundamentally broken-

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Oh, God.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and that they don’t really ever change, and, so that smacks up against that a little bit.

KYLE GETZ  

No, social media breaks you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I guess so.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, if you think about if, like, people can-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Wreck me, daddy. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Wreck me, Twitter! Ruin my ego.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[sighs] Oh, God. Is that what you named your hole. [both laugh] Your ego?

KYLE GETZ 

My ego? Wreck me in the ego. There is more to selfies than just narcissism though.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, I looked at a study called “This Is Who I Am: The Selfie as a Personal and Social Identity Marker”, in 2019. It said, quote, “Based on social identity theory, this survey of young adults examined how selfies signify forms of personal and social identity.” So, I didn’t know what social identity theory is. I’m going to take a brief trip to social-identity-theory-land because this is, like- I don’t know why- how, in five and a half years we have not talked about it, because this literally is like the basis of why stereotypes exist.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

This is like the theory and the, like, social constructs that make stereotypes happen. [chuckles] So, an article that gave an overview of this was on Simply Psych-o-logy…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Simply psycho-logy? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

That’s not how you say that word. I was- I needed to read the full word first before I realized which one this was.

MIKE JOHNSON

Take another run at it.

KYLE GETZ

Simplepsychology.org. [TN: it’s simplypsychology.org]

MIKE JOHNSON

Nailed it.

KYLE GETZ

Got it. [both chuckle] I think I’m good.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I’m not- I’m not broken. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m good. Do I- Do you want to keep doing this, like, in general? [Mike laughs] Do you think this is a good idea?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Are we a good idea? Okay. [takes a deep breath and slowly releases it] [clears throat] I need to do my warmups again. [hums a partial scale] The portion of an individual- The definition, is the portion of an individual’s self-concept derived from perceived memberships in relevant social groups. This theory was proposed by social psychologists Henri Tajfel and John Turner in the 1970s and 80s. They proposed that stereotyping, meaning putting people into groups and categories, is based on a normal- Stereotypes, we categorize people, as a normal process. We categorize things, that’s how our brains work, that’s how we make sense of the world, so it’s important, it’s a normal process. We have a tendency to group people together in this cognitive process, and in doing so we exaggerate the differences between groups and the similarities between things within the same group, which, that, I mean, I think I’ve been- I feel like recently I’ve particularly been talking about how, like, you- A study finds that someone is more likely to do a thing, and then we’re like, “Oh, everyone does that.” I think that’s- I think that comes from- I think this is in that same realm of overly-assuming that everyone does a thing within a group, overly-assuming similarities.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, that overused saying about “Most stereotypes are grounded in some kind of truth.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yes, yes. And oftentimes, I mean, we do see so many stereotypes that are based on something, some kind of truth.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And there are three stages of the evaluation process. First, the social categorization. That’s the categorization we do to understand ourselves and others, and we start to learn group norms. The second step is social identification. We adopt the identity of the group we are in, we start to act in the way that meets the expectations of the group, we get emotionally invested, it is emotionally significant to us to be a part of that group, and our self-esteem becomes tied to that group. And then social comparison. So we compare our group to other groups, and there’s a desire for our group to remain favorable, to have good- present well, be good, and- because we belong to it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Be good

KYLE GETZ

Be good. [Mike laughs] So, I-

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s exactly what we talk about all the time, right? Like, the things that we did when we were first entering the gay community that we felt like we needed to, because that’s what the gay community was about. Like, there’s another- Like, there’s a feedback loop there as well, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. And it’s- Yes. Yeah. And this is like, oh, this is the, like, this is the theory that is the foundation of exactly what we’re talking about, so I felt like I wanted to include that. Yeah. And I do think that- Exactly. We said, like, I think especially when you come out you don’t feel- Like, being LGBT, like, you- I don’t think you automatically am like, “Cool. I’m in the community,” I feel like when you’re coming out you’re like, “Eugh, I’m allowed- Am I allowed to call myself part of the community, or not?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, you don’t- Like, okay, even once you’ve accepted that you’re gay, it feels like another step to get to, like, “Okay, I belong. I feel confident saying I’m in it,” I think that takes some time, and I think that- So that’s the like, social identification, that second step where you start to become a part of the group. And yeah, you’re learning what other people are doing, because it’s a new group that you are- you were not born believing you’re a part of this group. Oftentimes, you know, it’s when you’re older and you don’t know the norms, and, yeah, you start to pick up what other people are doing, and believe that you have to do certain things to be part of it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, yeah, this- Like, we should have an entire- We should have someone smart on, to actually describe the social identity theory, because that’s, like, that’s literally we talk about.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, back to the study.

MIKE JOHNSON

Back to the study.

KYLE GETZ

The study was saying that- it’s part of the reason this came up. It is based on social identity theory that people take selfies to show their personal and social identities. So, some of the actual findings that I thought were fun to share: participants reported they take selfies to say something about who they are, to connect with others, to feel better about themselves, and to feel empowered. That’s what the finding was. There’s like, over 400 people they surveyed, and those were the things that- the reasons why people take selfies. I never feel better about myself when I take a selfie. What do- Do you? I guess we haven’t talked about, like, whether we do this or not. We can. Do you take selfies, often? Do you like them? How do you feel about them?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Not- Not often. Sometimes. I find that I tend to- they go in clusters. Like, I’ll go through a week where like, I take a few, and then I won’t for a really long time. I don’t take a lot of pictures in general, and I don’t know if that’s a Gen X thing or what, but like, traveling around- Like, I just got back from this crazy whirlwind tour of the of the world. All the pictures- Marci took all the pictures, right?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I followed- I followed because you just, on Instagram, reposted her picture. That’s how I, like, figure out what you were doing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s just not my first instinct. It’s just not.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, um- But I’m not- It’s not like I don’t.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

You know, I just don’t very often.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I was- Do you- So, during those phases where do you do take it, do you- what is the reason? Do any of those fit with you, uh, “say something about who they are, connect with others, feel better about themselves, feel empowered,” do any of those those?

MIKE JOHNSON  

[sighs] I mean, usually it’s when I’m feeling good about myself, and I want to share that I feel good about myself with other people.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

You know. And more of those- More of those pictures are- I hesitate to use the word “validation.” I guess that, strictly speaking, it is validation. It’s, “I think I look good, I took a good picture, don’t you think so too, everybody?”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, there’s a reason that, like, you could just take that picture, feel good, and move on and not post it, but then you post it, so clearly there’s something that we’re getting out of that step.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Right.

KYLE GETZ

But I would- I would imagine you doing it in a more healthy way than most. Like, you don’t depend on that valid- Like, you have healthy self-esteem that, like, you don’t need people to like it. Like, do you feel bad if like, only a few people like a picture?

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, God. [Mike laughs] I wish. Good for you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, I just don’t. Like- And there are people in my life, because of the fraternity, who are younger than you, and, like-

KYLE GETZ  

That’s mean.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Don’t remind me people exist that are younger than me.

MIKE JOHNSON  

…Who seem to genuinely experience horrible psychological effects to having things not be as successful as they need them to be when they post them online.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, like, I worry about them. Like, I worry about it. And- Anyway.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who you’re talking about.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well- [laughs] It’s okay, he doesn’t listen.

KYLE GETZ

So does he- Oh, okay, never mind. It looked at different groups. Again, this is the social identification, or, social identity, theory, so it talked about various groups. Women and LGBTQ people were more likely to report taking selfies to feel empowered. So I thought- Again, I don’t- I don’t usually feel empowered when I take a selfie, but I’m also not everyone. LGBTQ participants were also more likely to use activist and political events as selfie contexts-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

-and to engage in online activism.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That’s for sure. I mean, we- midterm voting, we just saw a bunch of people, like, I saw someone put the “I Voted” sticker on their ass and take a picture that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Excellent. Excellent!

KYLE GETZ

Like, you know, people definitely use the “I Voted” sticker and selfie as a way to promote voting, and I- I’m so jaded about- and I’m like, “You don’t actually care about voting, you just found a socially acceptable way to put out your selfie. I don’t think you actually-“ I think people are like, [in a mocking voice] “Oh, this is acceptable right now. Cool. Here’s my selfie.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. There’s probably some of both, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They’re probably people who’ve never voted in their life, but they know that this is the week for stickers on your ass. And-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. Some dude I met, like, once, and am friends with on Facebook – you know, like five years ago or whatever – and I’m still friends with, he posts like a reading list, and every time he does like a shirtless selfie, because he knows that’s gonna get the engagement, and then he talks about like books or something nerdy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

And so, like, I think people do use- they know that- Especially hot people, you know, that this will help the- like, improve.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We- And this is something that we don’t- This is another part where, like, we don’t fit in with a lot of people. Like, a lot of people would be posting a ton of themselves, and that tends to get- Even our Instagram, if we post a picture of ourselves that gets far more likes than anything else, but we don’t- it’s just not our- I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah, because people are stupid. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yeah. Um, I just wanted to read this, the last thing that I will say about the study: quote, “the findings indicate that potentially marginalized groups can use selfies to say something about who they are and, in doing so, feel a sense of affirmation, connection, and empowerment. This goes against the perception that taking selfies is a frivolous, narcissistic practice with little meaning or value.” So there’s more- I just- Anytime I see a selfie, I just go right to “narcissistic”, and there’s clearly something to that, but there is more going on there that is not purely negative.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Part of that is, you know, a sense of belonging, a sense of empowerment. You know, I assume for gay people, like, back to that, that like, that’s- as gays do that, take selfies, then that’s the behavior, that’s the norm. You know. So, yeah, there’s more going on with selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, two people can do exactly the same thing, and- for very different, internal reasons, and they’re the only ones that know which is true, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Or I can even do the same thing in two different- at two different times, and one time it’s healthy, and the other time it’s not, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I fucking destroyed an entire pizza yesterday, [Kyle laughs] when I got home, and it was intentional, and I didn’t feel bad, and I was hungry and didn’t want to go anywhere. I have no food in the house because I was on vacation. Fast forward, like, six weeks from now, if I destroy an entire pizza I’ll feel awful about myself, and, like, you know, just go in a death spiral of guilt and shame about it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, like, consuming a pizza isn’t immediately indicative of what’s going on, internally.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Some selfies are, and maybe most selfies are, born out of this, like, narcissist thing, but…

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I mean, you are right that I don’t take enough selfies with pizzas.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right?

KYLE GETZ

I think that’s true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, a lot of my life is spent with pizza, [Mike laughs] so I feel like I haven’t adequately demonstrated that online.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Share your love of your life with everyone.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Your dog, and pizza. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

My dog, and pizza; what more do you need in life? I fucking hate how the thing is when it’s someone’s birthday, when someone dies, like, you post a picture of you and the person. It’s like- It’s so- Like, you don’t need to post a picture of yourself when it’s someone else’s birthday. I think I did this, like, last year on your birthday, I just posted a picture of myself and wrote “Happy Birthday, Mike,” because I thought it was really funny. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s fantastic.

KYLE GETZ

Like, I don’t know that anyone- Like, maybe people don’t know- I don’t think anyone else thought it was funny, but I did. [Mike laughs] It’s just like, what the fu- How- That seems so narcissistic to me, to be like, [doing a mocking voice] “Look at me, I’m with you,” and, you know. I dunno.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

I see gays doing that all the time.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m with you. Yeah, that makes sense.

KYLE GETZ

We also need it for our apps, we need updated pictures for the app, so.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s do that.

KYLE GETZ

Do what?

MIKE JOHNSON

Take updated pictures for apps.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

I owe everybody an app makeover episode! It’s on the list, everybody! We’re gonna make it happen.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I’m- There are some interesting things that we have to talk about for your app makeover episode that-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s on the list.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Are you ready?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re gonna play a game.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I stole this idea.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Ooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Totally stole this idea from Chris Haigy from the We Read Movies podcast.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, hey Chris.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s a slightly different variation on it, but it’s a “Wait, Is That For Real?!” is what we’re gonna play.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m going to read you six selfie deaths, and you’re going to tell me which five of them are real and which one of them I made up.

KYLE GETZ  

[quietly] Should- I have- I have information about selfie deaths.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, do you wanna do that first?

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, I’ll do that after.

MIKE JOHNSON

Are you sure?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Uh, and then, I do have stuff on how to take a selfie, and maybe we’ll save that for Patreon.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooo, yeah. I need help, girl.

KYLE GETZ  

I- Me too! [Mike laughs] Um, Chris Haigy, speaking of selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

…That was the end of my thought.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

He just takes a bunch of ‘em.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, why not?

KYLE GETZ  

I- I mean, you know, it works for him.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Are you ready?

KYLE GETZ

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

MIKE JOHNSON  

One of the six of these is fake, I made it up.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

The others are real.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And then maybe we can talk about, like, the shit people do, like, to get a good selfie.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Yeah, eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Number one, a Polish couple fell to their death off a cliff in Portugal after crossing a safety barrier to take a selfie with their children. Their two children, who were present at the scene, survived-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my-

MIKE JOHNSON

-and watched their parents die. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

You can’t- You’re gonna have to laugh like 80% less during this segment, Mike. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Holy shit. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Number two, two young men died in the Ural Mountains. They pulled a pin from a live hand grenade and took a selfie with it. The phone with the picture is- [laughing] is the only evidence of their deaths that survived.

KYLE GETZ  

Mike, why are you laughing so much?!

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughing] I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

You can’t- [chuckles] I guess ‘cause it’s horrifying, or- I’m trying to give you credit here. That’s- Okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Number three, a 21-year-old man from Yogyakarta fell into the crater of the volcano Mount Merapi while attempting to take a selfie, and died in the volcano.

KYLE GETZ  

It was so hard for you not to laugh during that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Number four, a 63-year-old Bollywood celebrity died when an OR nurse attempted to take a selfie during an abdominal surgery [Kyle gasps] and dropped her phone into his body cavity, causing a severe bleed.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Number five, five intoxicated teenagers lied down in the middle of the road near an airport to take a selfie with a plane landing in the background. It was at night, and a truck driver did not see them and accidentally ran them over, killing two of them. [Kyle gasps] And number six, a Chinese businessman at a local wildlife park in the city of Rongcheng, Shandong province, was drowned by a walrus after taking several selfies and videos with the animal. A zookeeper was- also drowned in the same incident, after attempting to save the man.

KYLE GETZ  

Jesus Christ. If only one of those is fake [Mike laughs] that means the other five are real, so like, that’s too many of those to be real.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I have two that I’m waffling between.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

One is, [quietly doing a voice] oh! I should take a selfie with waffles. Um, one is, I think you were just on an airplane a bunch, so flying around, so it’d make sense if your invented one was the airplane one, because that’d be connected to what you- The other one is, like, a Seinfeld episode. Like, they- Instead of a Junior Mint it’s a phone though, but like, that- That’s a- Oh, you don’t like Seinfeld, so you don’t watch that, [Mike laughs] so you didn’t- If you made it up you didn’t- You didn’t see Seinfeld to have based that off of. Okay, I’m gonna go the airplane one.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. The fake one was the dropping the phone into the surgery one.

KYLE GETZ  

[gasps] Ah, fuck! Man! [Mike laughs] That means the grenade one was real? That means the kids watched- I should have guessed that one, because I didn’t want that to be real. The kids watched their parents die?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Can you imagine? I can’t. Holy shit.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

That’s traumatic. That’s a trauma, baby.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I have- I have round two. Are you ready for a round two?

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, God. Okay. [Mike chuckles] [sighs] Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, okay, of those first ones, uh-

KYLE GETZ  

The grenade one?!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Don’t pull a- Even if you think it’s fake, don’t. Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, I- There were a whole bunch of them. I found a whole list – right? – and then I culled them down to the ones that I wanted to, like, include in here, and there were lots and lots and lots of them, of people who are obsessed with taking selfies with guns, who then, like, pull the wrong trigger and shoot themselves-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my god.

MIKE JOHNSON

-taking a selfie. I mean, lots.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, anyway.

KYLE GETZ  

I would imagine there’d be a lot of falling to your death ones too.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And a lot of them are falls, yeah, yep, yeah. Okay… A walrus? Like, [Kyle laughs] who takes- Who tries to take selfie with a walrus?! Like-

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, anyone would. That seems like good selfie material.

MIKE JOHNSON

They are terrifying!

KYLE GETZ

I- There are so many where, like, there’s an animal, and I’m like, I would not be- I even saw it- Like, I posted a video, like, there were squirrels right by me in the park recently, and I was like- I think I was nervous they were gonna bite me. I always think everything’s evil and is gonna bite me.

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean-

KYLE GETZ

In a bad way.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Okay, round two. You ready?

KYLE GETZ

Okay, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Number one, in a remote area of Utah the desiccated skeleton of a 26-year-old hiker was found holding a cell phone. Data from the phone was retrieved, and showed the man taking several selfies with a rattlesnake, [Kyle gasps] including a final picture in which the snake bit him on the face. [chuckles] Number two, a 22-year-old student of Kherva[‘s] Ganpat University in Gujarat, India, climbed a glass dome on the third-floor terrace of a building to take a selfie. The fragile glass collapsed, [Kyle gasps] and she plunged 70 feet to the ground floor and was killed. Selfies were subsequently banned at the school.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, number three, police said Taraknath Makal was traveling by train with four friends, all aged between 25 and 30 years. When he reportedly leaned out of the door to take a selfie he lost his footing and fell off the train, so his friends jumped out to save them, but got ran down by another train coming from the opposite direction.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, God. That’s my nightmare.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[chuckles] Number four, in Zagreb, Croatia a 14-year-old boy climbed onto the roof of a train cargo wagon where he wanted to take a selfie, he grabbed a wire and was electrocuted, and his body apparently burned like a torch. Firefighters were unable to take action until the trains power was turned off.

KYLE GETZ

Burned like- Oh, God, a 4-year-old. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, 14. 14.

KYLE GETZ

Number five, five passengers aboard a sightseeing helicopter with its doors off, drowned after a passenger tried to take a shoe selfie – which I had to look up, it’s when you take a- point and take a picture of your feet – tried to take a shoe selfie and fell out, and their safety tether got caught on the emergency fuel shutoff lever, killing the engine to the helicopter which then [laughs] fell into the river.

KYLE GETZ

Ugh, Mike, stop it.

MIKE JOHNSON

And number six, a boat overloaded with 20 people in a reservoir in Central Java capsized when the passengers all suddenly moved to one side of the boat for a selfie- for a group selfie. The boat was being driven by a 13-year-old. Nine of the passengers drowned, including two children.

KYLE GETZ  

Hooo- Okay. I hate the one where the kid lit up like whatever you said, I don’t- I- But, God, that seems too cruel for you to make up. [Mike laughs] That seems mean. I’m gonna go the- You were just in India as well, and so there’s one in India, climbing on a building, I’m gonna say you saw that building or read about that building in India, and so that gave you the idea, so I’m gonna go the India one.

MIKE JOHNSON

There were two in India.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, the glass dome. Oh, what was-

MIKE JOHNSON  

The glass dome one? Okay. Yeah, there’s the glass dome one, and then there’s the jump off the train to save your friend but get run over by a train going the other direction.

KYLE GETZ  

Ohhhh, well then it’s one of these two, because you’re asking for clarification. I’m gonna- Eh. Okay, I’m gonna switch it, I’m gonna pick the different- the other door. I’m gonna go train-jumping-off-of.

MIKE JOHNSON

The Monty Hall problem.

KYLE GETZ

The Monty Hall problem.

MIKE JOHNSON

Except, I am not Monty Hall. It was the rattlesnake one.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

The hiker that got bit in the face by a rattlesnake. That was based on one that actually happened, but it wasn’t a death, it was just an injury.

KYLE GETZ

Eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, the one that really sticks out to me out of all of these is the one of, like, “Okay everybody, get together for a selfie!” on a boat, and the fucking boat tips over because everybody runs- Like, people- You say “selfie,” “group selfie,” people don’t pay attention at all, they just fucking do it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I just- I- That one is so visceral to me, I could see it happen. I have a fear of boats, and people, groups of people on boats, and groups of people on escalators. Get the fuck out of the way, there are people behind you!

KYLE GETZ  

Ohh. The inability of some people to, like- You must continue forward!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

Like, that is a requirement! 

MIKE JOHNSON  

Don’t- Like, and places are designed real bad so that, especially, stupid people- and there’s a lot of fucking stupid people in the world – at airports, that I’ve spent a lot of time in – get to the top of an escalator and immediately stop and look around, like, [doing a dopy voice] “Where am I going?” You fuckers, move! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] The train one is the most- Like, that one- Like, the idea of something coming the other way and, like, hitting you, is like, eugh. I hate being in a car and being between the concrete barrier and a truck. Like, that is like terrifying to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm, mhm. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

You don’t like- Like, so cruises wouldn’t be up your alley?

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s-

KYLE GETZ

Like, boats and people?

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s just- Yeahhh. I’ve gone on cruises before, and a cruise ship is less like a boat and more like, just like, land that’s not a- that’s away from the shore. [chuckles] You know, because they don’t move-

KYLE GETZ

It’s like land, but just, in the water.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. It is. Like, they’re just super stable, right? Like, they- They hardly move at all unless there’s like a storm or whatever. But, like, I mean like, a little boat.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Okay, okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway, that’s- That’s, uh, wait- “Wait, Is That For Real?!” or whatever Chris Haigy calls it.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughing] Or whatever. Or whatever. Um, thanks. That’s horrifying. Well, I actually found there was a study that was, like, there is no data that has been collected on this, so they collected – they researched – as many as they could find from 2014 to mid-2016 to figure out how-

MIKE JOHNSON

Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

Since you actually looked at this, how many people do you think have died while attempting selfies during that time?

MIKE JOHNSON

400.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, 75, so, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, okay. Great, I’m wrong.

KYLE GETZ  

Um, 75. I was-

MIKE JOHNSON

Nice.

KYLE GETZ

I was wondering- I was wondering why- 75 people have died while attempting selfies, in 52 incidents worldwide, and I was like, “Wait, how is there less?” but that’s because, like, can you imagine one selfie killing multiple people? Eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, or one selfie killing your spouse in front of your children, and you. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Eugh. I mean, I thought about this- or- Like, when Pokémon Go happened and people are, like, not paying attention to-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh my God.

KYLE GETZ

Like, you’re right that there is something, like, you say “Selfie,” and people just kind of ignore everything around you to- The mean age of the victims was 23-

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

-.3, if that matters-

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

-and 82% were male.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That surprises me.

KYLE GETZ

Right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Because you think of women being the ones that more likely than us – I mean, I think it’s, you know, straight dudes – like, more likely than straight dudes to be taking selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Me too!

KYLE GETZ

But more cautious, maybe?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Dudes are real reckless, and dumb, and are more likely to take pictures with rattlesnakes and walruses.

KYLE GETZ

Or, walri? [Mike laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But yeah, I think of like, in a group of people on vacation together, the one that’s gonna be taking all of the pictures and documenting it is going to be the chicken or 20s, right?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Someone [chuckles] was taking tons of videos at the bachelorette party went to- Oh, I don’t know if- I doubt she- Um, and at one point, like, handed- like, wanted- she wanted to be in one, so she gave me her phone and then was, like, dancing around, and then I was like… I don’t want to- Like, I don’t do this for myself. I don’t want to video these- Like, at some point I just, like, put the phone down, because like, I don’t want to do this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But, yeah. The most- India’s the most common country, followed by Russia and the US, which is interesting, because you mentioned two from India and we even talked about it. Um, most are falling from a height, drowning, and rail accidents, those are the top three.

MIKE JOHNSON  

The hand grenade was, uh, Russia.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, interesting!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway, go ahead.

KYLE GETZ  

That one- [Mike laughs] That’s not- Well, I don’t know. What’s the selfie- I don’t know. Okay. They did not have enough data to compare selfies versus non-selfie photography. Like, some of these things are not this- Well, I think the act of the selfie, you’re like, you’re distracted, which is different than if you were like setting up a camera. That, I think you’re looking around a little bit more, and you don’t have something in your hand that you’re looking at the picture.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And especially with dudes. And so maybe this is the thing that, like, “Here’s a picture of me I’m taking myself, doing something crazy, ridiculous, dangerous, over-the-top,” whatever, lends itself to, you know, issues.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Whereas, like, when you take a picture of something else, it’s usually not-

KYLE GETZ  

Well, no no, you could, like, set up a camera to take a picture of yourself. Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Well, I guess I don’t- We defined “selfie”, but I don’t know what they defined as non-selfie photography. I was thinking like, you set up a camera and then you all go step back. I guess that stuff doesn’t happen anymore now, because-

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was just thinking about, like, out there taking pictures of lions and one eats you or something. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

There was a guy that got trampled by elephants. He got- He got of the safari vehicle to go take a [laughs] selfie with an elephant, and fuckin’-

KYLE GETZ  

You’re on a safari! Jesus- That’s like, we’re here specifically to see very dangerous animals! That seems like a- Um, one of the reactions to this has been their worldwide initiatives that, like, are creating no-selfie zones. And it said, “a multifactorial approach is required before it gets too late.” That’s ominous. 

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, it’s a little late, and people have already died from this, so I mean, we’ve missed it, but like, I don’t know what- if they think they’re going to be increasing or something. Anyway. Um, that’s- Wow. No selfie is more important than your life.

MIKE JOHNSON  

True that. I mean, some people, I don’t know. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I wouldn’t mind if Elon Musk took a selfie that endangered his life, but, that’s different thing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Another irrational fear, or, like, thing that I can’t help but react to, is people who are taking selfies, or just regular pictures, who are putting their phone in places where, like, if you drop it it is gone, or it’s gonna fuck up this machine that we’re all on together, or you’re gonna – you know – you’re gonna hit somebody with it at a- You know, “Drop a penny off the Empire State Building it’s gonna go through somebody’s skull,” which it won’t, because that’s a lie, but, anyway, MythBusters busted that one.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, like, people will put their fucking phones in the most like, weird, random, dangerous places. We were in Buenos Aires on Sunday. We toured an awesome graveyard, it was a cemetery that had, like, all of these above-ground crypts that were like family tombs, and some of them had windows, and some of those windows were broken, and one of the people that I was with kept putting his cellphone into the- And I was like, “Girl, if you drop that phone it’s with dead people now, forever.”

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] It’s with the fishes. I- Well also, if there’s broken glasses isn’t that like sticking your hand through- Was that dangerous in and of itself, putting your hand through that?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes. Yes. I hope you have tetanus shots!

KYLE GETZ

Eugh. Okay, and maybe- Maybe the purpose, if there- Why was this something that interested you enough to talk about? I was gonna- I was gonna come up with purpose for talking about it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Wh- The camera?

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, selfie deaths.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I dunno. Because-

KYLE GETZ  

Because our podcast needs content?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well there’s that, Kyle. [Kyle laughs] We get together once a week, and we talk for a while, and then it goes out the door, and we need to say things.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughing] And we need to say things during that time period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

There is something about my total lack of confidence in the human species, that I view them as hopelessly narcissistic, stupid, dangerous. I’m fascinated by it in the same reason that I’m fascinated by Darwin Awards, and, um, it lets me feel superior that I’m not the type of person that those sorts of things would ever happen to, and it sort of justifies my derision for those that would, and I’m not proud of any of that, but that’s definitely part of the equation here.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, like, also that people- This is really important to people, it’s important enough that people- people are risking themselves, and clearly to ill- adverse effects, but like, that’s how extreme people care about selfies and their online – more so, like, the bigger picture, like – more so their online image and what they’re putting out there, whether it’s presenting that “I am interesting, or cool, or in a cool place, or doing something wild,” like, this is very important to people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s important enough to some people, to take these kinds of risks, and that- I also don’t- I rarely take a selfie. Like, it is so rare that I will post them, and- take them, much less post them. I feel like that’s- I’m very different than most gay people, so this is not important to me, so it is interesting seeing how much people care about- I care about my, like, online presence. Like, I check stuff too much, I do other things that are like harmful, but, taking and posting selfies is not one of those things.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Mhm. [chuckles] So we’re gonna ask all of you to post your selfies. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Well here- Okay. Here’s what I think.

MIKE JOHNSON  

“This thing is fucked up and stupid, and might kill you.” Let’s do it, everybody! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Let’s do it! Okay. Okay. One of the things that I- I think there are many of us, like me, although I think I’m not the only person that feels uncomfortable with- I mean, we know gay men have issues with their body. Like, I- That’s part of, like, my self-esteem and, like, body- Like, I don’t- Like, that’s the reason why. That’s mostly the reason why. And the idea of taking a bunch of pictures of myself and then looking through them is the worst. I would rather handle a live grenade.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right.

KYLE GETZ

Apparently you can do both at the same time. [Mike chuckles] Well, no you can’t.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

But, I think that I am not alone in that. I think we often see the jacked, gay, cis, white men that are posting pictures, and they get so many rewards for that. They’re- Like, if you have like 10-to-15-thousand Twitter followers I guarantee you it’s because you’re a gay guy that has posted shirtless selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

There’s like- There’s like a number of people that you get to- like, you hit when you just do that one thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it’s frustrating, and I hate- This is part of, like, my being annoyed at selfies, is because of all these, like, “Oh, cool, you’re pretty. Good for you. I’m so happy you’re pretty,” like, that- I’m sure that’s wonderful for you. So, that- I want to encourage, no matter who you are, especially if you’re someone like me who doesn’t take selfies or avoids it, like, do that. Like, you’re allowed to do that as well, and you don’t have to look like that to still post yourself, and be okay with that, and be proud of yourself, and- So maybe- I think there is some value in encouraging people do it. Yeah. So- Okay. Post selfies, tag us, we will repost lots of selfies to celebrate the release of this episode, and then you and I are also gonna take a picture. On- Well, on Instagram or Twitter.

MIKE JOHNSON  

But not Twitter, because it’s evil now. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Twitter’s like- This is another thing, if we go back to like, that- our conversation about, like, it’s hard to exist, just go through the world. Like, should I stop using Twitter? Like, I don’t- That’s been my personal main one that I use, and I’m like still there.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Should we park gayishpodcast on Mastodon?

KYLE GETZ  

I- I have not seen good things about Mastodon. I don’t know. I don’t know, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know either.

KYLE GETZ

Um, Instagram mainly, yeah. Uh, post a selfie, tag us we’ll repost it, and so you can at least get the validation from us that we care about you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So did we do it?

KYLE GETZ

Uhh, we did something.

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] We took- We took an hour and some change. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Did we talk enough about, like, gay culture and taking selfies? Is that- Like, was that part clear? And- I don’t know what else there is to talk about then, or us, or we.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t- I don’t- I don’t either.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Yeah, yeah. We did- We did a thing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We did it. Let’s-

KYLE GETZ  

Um, let’s learn how to take selfies, because we both need help.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh yeah, during the break for the Patreon segment we’re gonna learn how to take selfies.

KYLE GETZ

Yep, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Step one, take your shirt off! No- Okay. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Right, yeah. No step two, that’s the best selfie.

MIKE JOHNSON

So should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a breeaaak!

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, are we back?

KYLE GETZ  

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ

We did good at taking selfies of ourselves, based on the tips we learned in the Patreon segment.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love that it got worse as we went along.

KYLE GETZ  

Definitely. Well, the tip about turning your phone around, because it has a better camera, like, that seems like an expert-level move that we’re not to yet. I think handling basic smizing and head tilts are- I think that’s the phase we’re at.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Check it out for yourself by following us on Instagram. We’re not- Well, I guess- That is- That’s- Okay. Hi, everyone! Welcome back to our show!

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ  

Wait! Just, call to action. Oh, I guess- We’re on social media. Uh, post your selfies to Instagram and Twitter, and – or, maybe just Instagram. Yeah, we’ll push that one, not pushing Twitter – @gayishpodcast, and we’re also on a bunch other places, like Discord, and Facebook Groups, and Spaces.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails. Text us your selfies.

KYLE GETZ

Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s 585-5-GAYISH, that’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, if you don’t- If you’d prefer not to, or don’t have Instagram, you can text it to us.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But we will, I don’t know, not- probably not post those. And our- I’m doing- I’m not- I’m not great.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re fine. You’re good.

KYLE GETZ

Gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.

KYLE GETZ

You skipped a week and you kind of forgot that we-

MIKE JOHNSON

I know, yeah. We got some stuff.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, we have stuff? [gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON

Says, “Oh happiest of birthdays, and always remember that you are da bomb. From, Joe in Dallas.”

KYLE GETZ

Aww!

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks, Joe in Dallas! What’s in here? This is lube? Oh, no, It’s Da Bomb Beyond Insanity hot sauce.

KYLE GETZ  

I was like, if that’s lube it’s bloody. [chuckles] ‘Cause- Wow!

MIKE JOHNSON  

And this is Ass Kickin’ Carolina Reaper salsa. It’s “Kick Ass Hot!” it says.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

And another box.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Another box?

MIKE JOHNSON

“We’re Not Really Strangers”?

KYLE GETZ  

“We’re Not Really”- Oh! I think- Someone was like, “Can we send you a game?” and I was like, “Okay.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh!

KYLE GETZ

A sex party game!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, well, let’s not play that one.

KYLE GETZ  

Why not? We’re a sex party podcast!

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

We were nominated for a porn award, Mike. We’re a sex podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s true. And then-

KYLE GETZ

That only talks about sex.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And then Boomer Banks, I heard him talking on another podcast and he was talking shit about Cybersocket. Because he was like-

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

He’s like, “Apparently I don’t do porn. They don’t know I exist.”

KYLE GETZ  

Ohhhh. I thought you’re gonna say he was talking shit on us, and then I was gonna be excited that he knew who we are.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, no, no. No, no, no.

KYLE GETZ

No, he doesn’t? Aww.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, thanks, Joe in Dallas, and thanks, whoever you are that sent us this game. Probably the makers of the game.

KYLE GETZ

I’ll have to find- “We’re Not Really Strangers”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Maybe we’ll do the quarterly Happy Hour.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, that’d be a fun- Like, have some question ideas.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Maybe we’ll start with a single X though, because, like, you know, you don’t know how comfortable people are doing-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON

Nope, Local Gay Bar Review! This will be a quick one, because- because it’ll be quick, but, uh, I went to JR’s Bar and Grill in Dallas, Texas, which we have talked about on the show before.

KYLE GETZ

Why?

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, because that was the one where I got recognized.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, ooo, wow. Okay, oo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Be fancy.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, and I don’t remember if I could- I don’t remember what episode it was to go back to listen to it to know if I gave the whole thing, but it was still on my list, so I assume that means I just said I got recognized there and that I would review it later, and now I’m doing that later.

KYLE GETZ  

Hm. Oh, sure. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I hung out-

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] I like the mysterious notes you’ve left for yourself. I do the same thing, where I’m like, “This meant something at one point.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

“Bird internet.” [both laugh] Okay. Uh, yeah. So it’s a sports bar, it has a lovely outdoor balcony upstairs that reminds me of Boise, the balcony at the bar there, um, when we went.

KYLE GETZ

But it’s a sports bar?

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh- Yeah. Yeah. Good cocktails. I tried- That’s when I had my first fuckleberry, [Kyle chuckles] which I do believe I talked about on the show last time, because- Also, hung out with Joe in Dallas and, um – DallasCzech from the discord server – and had a lovely old time. Uh, four dildos.

KYLE GETZ  

Nice!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

[quietly] Sports bar. Stupid. [both laugh] Uh, Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON

Now let’s do our Gayest & Straightest. I will go first, if you would like me to.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. So the straightest thing about me this week is: I bought Grindr stock.

KYLE GETZ

You did?

MIKE JOHNSON

I invested in Grindr, which-

KYLE GETZ  

Did you buy it when it was at the bottom?

MIKE JOHNSON

No, I-

KYLE GETZ

And now you’re at the top?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was out of the country. Like- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, I did it… on principle. I only bought two shares, it’s like 40 bucks.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] That’s fun.

MIKE JOHNSON

I need to- I need to own that. On principle!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, you’re- You’re contributing. Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, and then the gayest thing about me this week was: going out in Buenos Aires this weekend and, because I don’t know how that country rolls – I do, but, I still worried about it – I had the Uber drop me off at the grocery store near the bar that I wanted to go to.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm.

MIKE JOHNSON

I didn’t type in a gay-ass into the Uber. I was just like… take me somewhere there- nearby there.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Doesn’t that sucked, that like- I was like, thinking about this. We have to look up countries and be like, “Am I gonna die there? Is it illegal for me to be”- like, that sucks.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep, absolutely. How about you, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

Um, my gayest is: I found myself, when I couldn’t sleep a couple nights ago, watching the 2012 Madonna halftime show from the Super Bowl.

MIKE JOHNSON

Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

No idea how- You know, there’s just- I was like, watching the Shakira.

MIKE JOHNSON

That was your straightest?

KYLE GETZ

That was my gayest.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, it was still football, so I think- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

There was- Well, yeah. But I watched no football and just Madonna.

MIKE JOHNSON

Got it.

KYLE GETZ

Um, the straightest: I don’t know why, but I’m watching the second season of the NXIVM documentary, and it just – I don’t know – it just feels like a straight thing. Just, the documentary, there’s nothing gay about it, there’s no- I don’t-

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, that dude banged a loooot of those chicks.

KYLE GETZ  

Yep, yep. Yep, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I dunno. Um, we have a listener’s. This is from Donna Suggarz.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Donna Suggarz, I heart you.

KYLE GETZ  

I finally did not call you Donna Summers. Hi, Donna. Hope you’re doing well.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, she just- She’s moved back to the East Coast. She bought a house.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

You’re adulting.

DONNA SUGGARZ [voicemail]

Well hello, darlings. It’s Donna Suggarz. I was just calling with my Gayest & Straightest for the week. I just moved into my new home, and the straightest thing I did this week is: I replaced my own toilet! Oh, it was disgusting. Oh, God, [Mike laughs] the straightest thing I ever did, and I licked a vagina once! [Mike laughs] Uh, the gayest thing I did this week: [sighs] I wept openly because I was unpacking my records and my Bette Midler Divine Miss M album has a crack in it! Oh my God, that’s the one she did in the bathhouse with Barry Manilow as her pianist. I- I- I- I’m getting- I get emotional now just thinking about it. [Mike chuckles] So, um, I love you guys! Bye!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, Donna.

KYLE GETZ  

Those are wonderful. [Mike laughs] Those are perfect gayest and straightests. Breaking your- and tearing up over your Bette Midler [laughs] album, that’s the one of the gayest things I’ve ever heard.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yesss.

KYLE GETZ

Is that it?

MIKE JOHNSON

I guess that’s it.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Send us your selfies, you fuckers.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Why- Why do you feel hesitant? Do you have more to say, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Let it all out.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ve just been gone.

KYLE GETZ

By that I mean poop.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’ve been- Oh, I’m pooping now. [Kyle laughs] I’ve just been gone for a while, so, it’s like, I forgot how to do this. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You’re allowed- [Mike laughs] You’re allowed to take one week off every, like, two, three years I think, roughly? [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

Don’t do it again.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, thanks- Thanks for filling in! And thanks- Thanks to thanks to Miss Talk.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

‘Cause she nasty. [both laughing]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Um, and-

MIKE JOHNSON

Wait, no “if you’re nasty”. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

“if you’re nasty”, yeah. Nah, she’s nasty, that’s fine.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m nasty, somebody’s nasty. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Someone is nasty, and we’re gonna get to the bottom. Umm, and make sure you listen to her new podcast, Humanists Star Trek-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s Humanist Trek. Um, also-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I’m gonna be on that bitch.

KYLE GETZ

You are?

MIKE JOHNSON

I hope so.

KYLE GETZ  

You should. Um, also, thank you to the following Super Gap Bridgers: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, [laughs] Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, DustySands, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you all for your support.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Thank you for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ  

And I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. Take a selfieee.

MIKE JOHNSON

Click.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

There’re some fun names that studies use, because of the word “selfie”, like them using that “Selfie-Help”, that was fun, “Selfie Indulgence”, “I Love My Selfie”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh-uh.

KYLE GETZ

The one that took a real swing, “Selfie Harm”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh-uh, uh-uh.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] That one I was like, “Oh, uhh. Ooo, uhh.”

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]

 

Gayish: 308 Unemployment (w/ Sarah Ray)

Capitalism, productivity, and self-worth. Sarah joins as a guest co-host to talk with Kyle about LGBTQ+ unemployment and our personal experiences being out of work.

In this episode: News- 5:29 || Main Topic (Unemployment)- 24:06 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:23:40

Find all about Sarah and the work she does at www.callmesarah.com. Also, take a listen to her podcasts, SarahTalk and Humanist Trek.

On the bonus segment, Sarah and Kyle commiserate on the topic of “productivity guilt,” and Kyle helps Sarah get deep into some feels. Get bonus segments every Friday and loads more bonus content by joining at the $5+/mo here on Patreon.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

KYLE GETZ  

Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish, the podcast that asks “Bro…” [chuckles] I’m Kyle Getz and I’m here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, as you’ve already seen, it is me here. Mike is off; his birthday was Monday earlier this week. His birthday’s November 14 if anyone wants to wish him a belated happy birthday. He is also in a different country for work, so all of these things add together to be that Mike is not here. But, that doesn’t mean I’m alone. That means we have a super special guest co-host today, and that is Sarah Ray. Hi, Sarah.

SARAH RAY  

Hey, how’s it going?

KYLE GETZ  

Great! I’m so excited you’re here.

SARAH RAY  

I’m so excited to be playing the role of Mike Johnson today.

KYLE GETZ  

I’m excited to see how much you are like him, [Sarah laughs] how different you are from him, and if you have an entire segment on history that will last 20 minutes.

SARAH RAY

So, Star Trek.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] Star Tre- Okay, yep, that worked, now we’re back. Sarah is the host of the SarahTalk Podcast and the new Humanist Trek podcast. She is also the VP of The Humanist Society. She is a humanist celebrant. She is an atheist. She’s a- uh, I guess not-so-recent-anymore Coloradan, and friend of the show, more so than maybe anyone that we’ve had on as a guest before. [chuckles]

SARAH RAY

[chuckles] We go way back.

KYLE GETZ

We go way back!

SARAH RAY

We do, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah! So, we’re gonna do all the normal things, except I have to pretend that I care about the news [Sarah laughs] is basically the biggest difference. Okay, today we’re talking about unemployment specifically. Sarah, we are both [sighs] kind of in a similar spot in life right now.

SARAH RAY

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But we’ll come back to that. We have a couple things to do first. So- But first, but first, [Sarah chuckles] we do have 100 words. In honor of Mike I am going to read the email leading up to the 100 words, even though that’s the dumbest structure [Sarah laughs] for what we set up. And, also, thank you to Tessa727 who sent this in, because we had been delaying a whole bunch on it. And finally, here it is. So, “Hello, Gayish team! Love the podcast. It’s one of my favorite podcasts out there for while I do my chores. I’m ADHD and autistic, so having you guys talking in my ears – be it silly or serious – really helps me get through what I need to do.” That’s very sweet, thank you. “So far, everyone who’s submitted 100 words had heartfelt and warming pieces. However, I’m in the mood for some harmless chaos. I would like to say I’m sorry, but I’m laughing too much even typing this to make that lie work. 100 words attached. If possible, can Mike first see it at time of recording? Read dramatically.” “From Tessa727.” I don’t know that we’ve gotten notes [both laugh] on how to read the 100 words in the past, but-

SARAH RAY  

I can’t wait to see what chaos this is!

KYLE GETZ  

-it’s- Okay. So- Because- Even though Mike is off, he’s still doing this dramatic reading, so I’m gonna go ahead and play that here. 

[MIKE JOHNSON]

Read dramatically!

Lizard!

Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.

Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.

Lizard????

Lizard lizard!

Lizard, lizard lizard lizard, lizard – lizard lizard lizard.

Lizard. Lizard lizard lizard.

Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard!

Lizard lizard lizard.

♫ Lizaaaaaarrrdddd. Lizard liiiiizzzaaaarrrddd. Lizard lizard -lizard lizard lizard -lizard liz -liz -lizard ♫

(halfway done!)

Lizard!

Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.

Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.

LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD!!!!!!!!

Lizard lizard lizard?

lizard lizard lizard.

Lizard – “Lizard! Lizard lizard lizard! Lizard?!?!?”

Lizard, lizard – “ Lizard lizard”

Lizard, liz lizard lizard.

Lizard.

(Fin)

KYLE GETZ

So, okay, thank you for that I think. I think thank you for those 100 words. Uhh- [chuckles] You know, we said you can use it for anything you want, and you- you did that. You successfully achieved that. Congrats. If you want to send us 100 words, and you have that level benefit at $15 and up on Patreon, I mean… test our- test our boundaries, baby. Okay, now on to the news… There’s a news theme song that plays here…

SARAH RAY  

[whispered, faint] Shut your mouth hole… [Kyle laughs] time for your ear… news, news, news. [speaking normally] I’m gonna get the guitar.

KYLE GETZ

[hushed] Oh my god, the acoustic version!

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, so, news the first: – and I’m really excited you’re here for this Sarah – we just had in the US our midterm election.

SARAH RAY

We did.

KYLE GETZ

And, because we’re- We’re recording this at a time where at least we know that the Democrats are holding on to the Senate. So, before I get into anything more on my side, how are you feeling about the midterm elections and what happened?

SARAH RAY  

I don’t feel like- I don’t feel like I paid as close attention to the election this year as maybe I had planned to or should. Like, we’ve got a lot of stuff going on, you know, in our lives. And kids are in school in a brand new school district, and like, there’s just a lot of things going on. But there were a few things that, like, really stuck out to me from this particular election. And the first of that is the youth vote.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

Like- So NPR noted that 27% of voters between 18 and 29 cast a ballot this year in the midterm, and that 2022 is the second highest voter turnout among young voters, uh, voters under 30, at least in the past three decades, and 2018 was highest.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

SARAH RAY

So like- It seems like, if I’m trying to find hope in this mess, it seems like we’re trending towards the youth being much more engaged in politics. And that’s a thing that, like- The youth of everything is a thing that we’re all trying to figure out, like if you run any kind of political thing, or a nonprofit or a community organization. Like, we all sit around in rooms and talk about “How do we get young people more involved in the X,” you know?

KYLE GETZ

Mhm, mhm, mhm.

SARAH RAY

Which is funny as a Gen Xer, you know, coming from the we did absolutely nothing with our- [both chuckle] with my youth. We listened to Green Day, and got high, and that’s- that was our involvement. [smacks lips] Ummm…

KYLE GETZ  

I- But- Okay, I think if everyone just listened to Green Day and got high for a bit, like- You know?

SARAH RAY  

Life would be- The world would be a better place.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, absolutely!

SARAH RAY

I agree.

KYLE GETZ  

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think we- Like, we- I remember, I’m a millennial, I’m an elder millennial, which I recently learned was a thing. Because they were like, “Oh, thanks…” – you know – “…Gen Z and millennials under 30.” And I was like [gasp] I almost made the thanks, [Sarah scoffs] but then I didn’t. And I was like, “I should make the cut for the youth vote, I’m 36.” That’s fine, and I’ve accepted that I’m no longer the youth, and, you know, I’m over it, clearly.

SARAH RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

But, I think we had the big MTV campaigns of like, “Get out the vote-”

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

-and like P Diddy did a PSA or something, of like- So, I think- I think we were trying to be what Gen Z is now. I think we were trying to get the push to participate in the way that Gen Z is. So.

SARAH RAY  

And even with that though, still, it’s only 27%, right? Like, that’s still not a great number to be- We shouldn’t be proud of that. 27% is not enough.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. It’s- It’s that, and the reason I believe behind it, or what – you know – Gen Z is talking a lot about, is this is the generation that had to go through active shooter drills, or had been in active shooter situations. Like, that being an instigator to go vote, it sucks that that would be one of the big catalysts for it. So there’s a lot of shitty things happening-

SARAH RAY

That’s true.

KYLE GETZ

-even though we’re trying to celebrate the Gen Z vote. Something else to celebrate is, there was not a red wave as expected.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I saw a bunch of people saying like, “We need to learn how to poll people that’s not calling them on the fucking phone.” [laughs]

SARAH RAY  

[laughs] Right! Right. Because- First of all, I don’t have a home phone, right? So if you’re sourcing numbers that way, you’re gonna get the octogenarian audience [both chuckle] that you’re gonna get. And, uhm, if you call me on my cell phone, I’m not gonna answer it!

KYLE GETZ  

No fucking way- Like, that, to me, I was like, “If you think that’s a youth thing, then you haven’t been paying attention for a very- It’s just now impacting your numbers enough that you’re rethinking it.” Like, I have not answered my phone for decades. [laughs]

SARAH RAY  

I trust, like, YouGov polling. I don’t know if you’re familiar with YouGov.

KYLE GETZ

No.

SARAH RAY

You can download this app on your phone and participate in some of the polling that they do, and some of them are paid, and some of them aren’t. You know, you can make like five cents for filling out a survey or whatever. But when you look at those in the news articles, and look at the source for a lot of their data, YouGov comes up in a lot of that. So I feel like I’m- I’m getting my voice out a little bit, in some of that polling, when I use that app instead of like- There are some that have figured out “Here’s how we reach the people,” and it’s not calling them on the phone, it’s “Here’s an app you can sign up for.”

KYLE GETZ  

It’s also interesting, that part of using your voice – we know that voting is not the only way nor should it be, but, it’s interesting – polls in prediction of how voting is going to happen, that’s a different way you can use your voice, is by voting on those things.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, that’s a weird- I didn’t even think about that as an option. Like, when people see, like, a crushing red wave is gonna hit us it kind of makes you feel defeated, and you might not vote because you think it’s just a done deal, and it clearly wasn’t.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. Right. And, [scoffs] like, just broadly, the midterms and the way they tend to go – Right? – usually the minority party cleans up in the midterms. They attack whatever the majority party president and Congress have been doing, and that usually swells them up, and we just- we didn’t have that this year. And I think there’s a lot of factors at play, but one of the big ones is, like, if you look at some of the candidates who didn’t do well, a lot of them were like election denier, Jan. 6 Trumpers.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

And they- A lot of them won, yes. Like, many did, but, it seemed like the Trump endorsement didn’t pay off positively in a lot of races like one might have expected.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. We are no longer- or- They are no longer fawning over him and “Everything he says is gospel, and we’ll do it no matter what or how crazy.”

SARAH RAY  

Right. One of the most delicious losses for me though was that dickbag fuckface Dr. Oz.

KYLE GETZ

Yesss!

SARAH RAY

I am so glad he lost, but even then it was like a five point margin. Like- [nervously sighs]

KYLE GETZ  

Oh my god, it was way too close to, like, rest easy and be like, “Ooo, we’ve done it-”

SARAH RAY

Right?

KYLE GETZ

-but I was so glad about that one, absolutely. Another major takeaway that we are seeing from this midway is – The Victory Fund, which is a pack dedicated to getting openly LGBTQ officials elected in the US – they noted that at least 436 LGBTQ candidates won, which is 100 more than 2020.

SARAH RAY

That’s amazing. Amazing.

KYLE GETZ

So- That’s such a big number. Like, with all that’s going on- I mean, I even think of- I’ve been thinking about school boards recently, because of book bans and schools becoming a target for anti-LGBT-speech, people, hate. Um, but, getting people voted in across the country – LGBTQ people voted in across the country – is just such a huge way to make a change. There are so many firsts, that the one- I’ll just read a few. We had our first lesbian governor elected, which ended up being our two first lesbian governors elected because we ended up getting two at the same time. We have the first trans man elected to a state legislature. We had our first openly gay immigrant that was elected. So, among this big sea of LGBTQ people, also a lot of firsts are coming along with that. So that’s something else that we can – not necessarily rest easy, but – enjoy and appreciate that there was, what the Victory Fund called, a “Rainbow Wave.”

SARAH RAY  

Absolutely. [huffs]

KYLE GETZ

Alright, new-

SARAH RAY

Let me finish on this thought, though.

KYLE GETZ

Please.

SARAH RAY

And that is: While we’re- I’m the pessimist of the group, [Kyle giggles] and while we’re celebrating our wins – Right? – like, slavery was on the ballot in five states and won in four, and the fifth one was kind of a sketchy reason why they kicked that down. So like, that’s another victory to talk about. There were a lot of great things, but at the end of it all I still kind of walked away going like, “It’s hard to find hope,” still, even with all of those wins. Like, there is no question we are a nation divided on many different lines, and like my mom always says, “It’ll probably get worse before it gets better.” So I think there’s a lot of, like, good positives to take away from the midterms, but also I don’t think that’s like the bell cry for “Great things are coming.” I think we still have to be cautious.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So moving on to news the second: I wanted to talk a little bit about the – fuck, I didn’t practice this name. [Sarah laughs] This is… well, you expect it now at this point, so, sorry everyone – the Mahsa Amini protests that are going on right now in Iran. This is something that I’ve just been personally paying close attention to, and because I’m running the news I get to fucking talk about it. It’s not inherently gay, but I think human rights, human liberation, women’s rights, all of that, ties very closely into LGBT rights, and if you don’t see the connection I would urge you to look more into the history of where our oppression comes from. So that’s the connection, but, the background is: back in September, 22-year-old Mahsa Amini was arrested for not following hijab laws. Police beat her, and, as everything – you know – is couching their bets, but I don’t have to because no one gives a fuck about this podcast [Sarah laughs] so I could just say- Basically, it is presumed- like, the police killed her, which they deny. That sparked the protests. Since then, women have been protesting the mandatory hijab laws, and of course it’s gotten bigger than that, protesting some of the – I forget what they’re called. Just, like, there are certain ways you’re supposed to act and behave. It’s basically the government is telling you exactly what you can- – um, morality laws that are there.

SARAH RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

So, it has become a big movement for women’s rights, and I just don’t- I feel like I have to seek out information on this rather than it always being front and center, especially now that it’s – you know – it’s been a couple of months and there’s fatigue there. Guess that’s part of the reason I wanted to bring it up.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah, there is something to – I think, in the West – to really be paying attention to here, and that is, like, you know, one of the things that I’m always engaged in, something related to the separation of church and state. And like, these are great examples of “Here’s what happens when we let religion and government commingle: crazy shit like this.” Like, these ridiculous morality laws get put into place, and, you know, harm people; take people’s rights away. And there is a movement in our country to, you know, install Christian nationalism. And don’t be surprised if you start seeing some of that same kind of stuff happening, if we allow that to happen.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You- Before we started, you were talking about, [Kyle chuckles] if you look yourself up, one of the first things was [Sarah laughs] – what did you read?

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. If you Google me, there’s- Most of what comes up is like atheist activism, right? And so, one of them was: I gave a- Uh, there was a City Commission in Florida that allowed Christian pastors to give a prayer before their meetings – Right? – to deliver an invocation. But like, 99 times out of 100, those invocations – or even 100, out of 100 – those invocations were a Christian preacher. And so I tested their policies on equality and signed up to give an invocation. And the – you know – the people in the office handling that request knew that they couldn’t deny this to me, that that would be very bad for them legally, so they had to let me do it. And then, as like I came and gave an invocation – and a secular invocation is very much like, “You were all elected to do this job for whatever special, you know, skills and knowledge that you have. Let’s come together, and put aside our differences, and get to doing the work of governing the people.” – right? That is basically a secular invocation.

KYLE GETZ  

[sarcastically] So offens- That’s offensive! That’s mean and offensive, Sarah. [laughs]

SARAH RAY  

Tsk. Was it- Two or three of them got up and walked out during my invocation. One of them left a bible on the dais, in protest. It was great! So that’s the kind of stuff you find when you start Googling me. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] And, I think one of the reasons to note that is: I think we can, with our xenophobic attitudes in the US, look at other countries and say, “Oh, that’s just that- Iran. That’s just them, that could never happen to us.” And it’s like, shit, like, that does happen, you know?

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, I want to talk about how we are unfortunately connected and related in these struggles together. So, recent goings-on for these protests: the protests have continued; they have arrested 14,000 protesters so far; there have been hundreds of protesters killed by the authorities. Of course, they would give you different numbers, but, you know, international rights groups and watchdog groups have said that there are probably hundreds of- or, no, there are hundreds of people that have been killed. The fear is that, of those- with those 14,000 protesters, that they will be executed for violating some of these vague like, morality laws, or hijab laws, or what have you. Amnesty International put together a petition that is now closed but had a million signatures to call for an investigation into these. And, just one action item if you want to stay involved or learn more: I like the Instagram handle @middleeastmatters that has been covering this protest, and does also cover other things. Some of the other accounts that have been recommended are very graphic and violent. So, there are others that are useful, but that one: that’s a good kind of way to get in and at least start following this.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Last news story is actually an update- Oh fuck, “News the last.” I don’t know how much I want to be Mike. I’m trying to replicate his- [Sarah laughs] I’m stealing his new segment and trying to replicate it, but I- Okay. News the last: I’m Mike, this is all fun, I loooove talking about the news! Um, this is an update on Brittney Griner. So, we’ve given I think maybe a couple updates or so by now, but another major development, just quick update. She’s a WNBA player and an Olympic gold medalist who was, earlier this year, detained by- in Russians- uh, by Russian customs for cartridges with less than a gram of cannabis oil. That was apparently offensive enough that she was sentenced to nine years in prison. The update: she is being transferred to a prison camp, or, also known as a penal colony, which is what you might hear people refer to it in the news. At this point, I don’t know what- You know, it might actually- By the time this comes out we may know more, but, it is unknown where she’s going. People are not, like her family or lawyers, are not told until they arrive in the penal colony, and apparently penal colonies have pretty grim conditions. Um, I see you’re shaking your head Sarah. Have you- have you seen or read much about the situation?

SARAH RAY  

I’ve read that- Yeah, I’ve read that a lot of them are like former gulags from Soviet era, and they’re like falling apart, and they crowd a bunch of people in there, and like it’s just- the conditions are just terrible.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, [sighs] yeah. So, before now, before this point, she’s been in a pretrial detention center in Moscow. So that’s why she – now that she’s been sentenced – is being moved. And, just earlier this month, one action item that I wanted to share, is that her wife Cherelle Griner encouraged people to write letters to her. I think, again, just like the Iranian protests, after a couple months of being in the news it kind of stops making front page news. So, the fear is that- I think she might have said that Brittney Griner thinks people have just kind of forgotten about her. You can actually write a letter and send to her, and you can go to “we are bg .org” – as in her initials, Brittney Griner – wearebg.org, and you can write a letter. And, given that was the call from her wife, from her own family, that this is something that would be useful, I think, remind- it sounds like such a little thing in the context of what’s going on, but, reminding her that “We haven’t forgotten about you, we’re thinking about you, we know this is still a fucked up situa-” Or- I don’t know. Say whatever you- [Sarah chuckles] I won’t tell you how to write your letter, you do that. God damn people, do your own- Um, so you can go there, find out how to write letter, and find out – you know – if there are any other actions you want to take.

SARAH RAY  

It’s heartbreaking to think of being in that position. Just-

KYLE GETZ  

This is something I think about, and I just- I could not- I just- I’d be like, “This one tiny thing I did has fucked me over in so many-“ It is a nothing charge. It means nothing. It was-

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know. I can’t get over just that the- ugh. Like, this is scary. Like, it’s scary and horrible.

SARAH RAY

For sure.

KYLE GETZ

Well, that’s the news, [chuckles] Mike. Now I see why Mike tries to end on a happy one, because, I don’t know, we don’t have to be happy all the time. We can just be bleh. Um, people who are not bleh are the following Patreon members: Peter Altier… [TN: pronounced like “teardrop”] Peter Altier [TN: in a French way] I’m gonna guess?

SARAH RAY

Nailed it.

KYLE GETZ

Um. [chuckles] Nailed it. Uh, I’m gonna get this one: Matt. Appreciate you Matt.

SARAH RAY

Well done!

KYLE GETZ

Thank you. [laughs] Oh sorry, there are two Ts! Ma-t-t. Thank you Ma-t-t… Logan Cheshire, and TheOnlyShaun. That’s gotta- It’s not- Shaun, not Shawn. [TN: like the “wn” in “shown”] Shaun. Shawn.

SARAH RAY

What?

KYLE GETZ

Shaun.

SARAH RAY

What?

KYLE GETZ

S-H-A-U-N, that’s just Shaun still, right?

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We still do Shaun for that. TheOnlyShaun, all one word if that makes a difference to you. Uh, thank you so much to our Patreon members. If you want me to take a swing at your name, or make up a name that then I have to try for – that’s my version of the 100 words, is make me try to say your name – go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. Alright, do you, Sarah, want to talk about unemployment?

SARAH RAY  

I do want to talk about unemployment. And since I’m playing the role of Mike today, I’d like to talk about the history of unemployment.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] If you do, I- you might be hosting this, because I might leave.

SARAH RAY  

[laughs] Well, it turns out there’s not a lot of recorded history about unemployment as, like, a condition of being. So, what I started with was sort of-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my god, are you- Wait, you’re serious?! Are you really-

SARAH RAY

Yeah, of course I have a history of unemployment. [Kyle chuckles] So what I started with was the history of employment, and then I kind of extrapolated out from there, right? So-

KYLE GETZ  

Oh my god! [laughs] Sure. I- Wow. Okay, sure. Yeah.

SARAH RAY  

I’m nailing this interview. Okay, so, this-

KYLE GETZ  

I know, sorry! I need to get- [Sarah laughs] I need to like- I need to go along with you, and I’m happy to, I just- I didn’t- It’s just not- I didn’t expect this. Okay-

SARAH RAY

I love surprising you. There you go.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah! Wow, it worked. I- Okay.

SARAH RAY

So-

KYLE GETZ

So.

SARAH RAY  

So essentially, as, like, as a society grows, and starts to organize, then these systems of power grow from it: organized work being one of them, right? So think of like, small, collaborative, tribal sort of structure, right? Where the group is so small, everybody has a role to play, and they’re like basic things like gathering-hunting food, tending to children, creating shelter, like the necessities of life, right? But also – and I hope I’m not romanticizing this too much – individuals in those smaller groups also seem to be valued on more than just what they can produce.

KYLE GETZ  

Mm.

SARAH RAY

But-

KYLE GETZ

That seems like a key, that we need to hold on to that idea and see if and-

SARAH RAY

[talking over] IIIIII feel like we need to come back to that, how do we- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY  

So, when those societies start to grow, and get bigger, and spread out in territory, that’s when you really start to see like divisions: in age, and gender, and skill, and class. So as those systems scale up, workers become a commodity and are a market of their own, and then from like the basic life-sustaining work tasks like finding food and creating shelter, through the Industrial Revolution, through into the information age, work continues to get more and more specialized, and simply not everyone is going to fit into one of those specialized things.

KYLE GETZ  

There’s part of what you’re describing that seems valuable, of us understanding we each have different skills that we divide up, and start – you know – specializing in our things.

SARAH RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

But also, the way you’re describing it, it seems like it also goes hand in hand with – then you mentioned – the commodification of workers. Like-

SARAH RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Do those things just go hand in hand?

SARAH RAY  

And what do we do with the generalists, who don’t snap into the specialized jobs?

KYLE GETZ

Right. Right.

SARAH RAY

And I’m foreshadowing here, because this is- [Kyle chuckles] a lot of my story is wrapped into this, but- So then there’s a connected history of unemployment as like a kind of welfare benefit. So we know that those structures existed in ancient Egypt, and we have English laws going back to the 1500s creating public works programs, and punishments for the willfully unemployed. Pause there, because we want to draw the attention to, like, at least they had a little bit of compassion to exclude people who couldn’t work for whatever reason – right? – and targeted those who were, quote unquote, “Able bodied and able to work,” but for some reason were not working. In the US we probably think of things like World War I, the Great Depression, and the New Deal: Job-creating programs from the New Deal. When we think about labor, and shortages, and unemployment levels, I think America kind of goes- That’s where we think of. And I think it’s interesting to look at that approach, because like, while in arguably it did a lot of good, it further entrenched our belief that welfare – and by that I mean, like, the wellbeing of citizens – has to be tied into what they can produce. Ah, capitalism.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yeah.

SARAH RAY

And so, that’s why I like ideas like universal basic income so much, because it separates away the… “How many widgets can you make” from your value and it values us all as people, that we’re- we’re all humans, and we all exist in this space and time, and for that we should have value for each other, regardless of how many widgets you can make.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I’m blown away that- you mentioned even back to the 1500s, that there was some kind of, you know, collective “We need to support people who don’t have jobs,” and that sounds like a nice way of framing, like- but it’s based on productivity. We all need to get together to like, make sure those people aren’t punished for it, or are able to at least survive for a little bit.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That’s why- I didn’t- I didn’t expect this concept to have been around for so long.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. Well, and then here in the States – right? – we have this [huffs] deep-rooted negative view of the unemployed, right?

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

SARAH RAY

Like, we just idolize hard work so much as an ideal to strive for. And it’s just- It’s horseshit, as far as I’m concerned. Like, it’s just stupid. But, so anyway, I think what I would take from that is: you know, as we talk about unemployment, it’s easy to talk about it like a monolith, but we want to think about how people who are unemployed further breaks down into things like people who want to work but can’t for whatever reason, and people who want to work but they can’t find a job in their field, or people who want to create and give to society in a way that’s different from the capitalist job machine.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow! I’m, like- I’m blown away by both the content and that you did this at all, so-

SARAH RAY  

[laughs] It’s one thing I prepared for today, so, enjoy.

KYLE GETZ  

I- I’m- [laughs] Okay, okay. We’re going downhill- Well, then I have to do my segment, so we’re going downhill. This is like Julia Louis Dreyfus in Veep, where I’m like “Oh, my VP pick was so good. I did this! I- Everything you say, I did it, because I picked!” [Sarah laughs] No, um- I- The last part, where you mentioned people that create things or work in a way that is not valued within this society: I think back to, in the past, artists. A lot of the famous artists that we have, and put their put their work on literal pedestals, are people who were supported by patrons that- Like, an entire family would be like, “We have so much fucking money, we’re gonna give to artists because- so that they can create.”

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And I don’t know if I’m just romanticizing that concept that they did, and maybe it’s harder than I imagined, but I just thought that – even, like, when you think about philosophers, that you look back – like, there’s no way that made fucking money in our sense of the- Like, do we have philosophers today? Like, you have to be an academic and figure out other ways to do things and contribute. And so, to me, I remember learning about all these types of – I even hate calling it a profession, but like – all these types of people that did this stuff that we look back and value and teach in history, but I don’t know that you can be just a philosopher today. Like…

SARAH RAY  

Well think about raising kids, right? There’s a thing that should be a job that comes with an income. [Kyle chuckles] I mean, we’re talking about people who are literally raising, like, the next generation of people. And, what have we done? We have, over time, created a system where a single-income household isn’t going to cut it anymore, right? Both- Ostensibly, we’re talking there’s, you know, two parents, or two adults, or whatever, that have to go out to make an income. And we’re relying more on organized school and childcare systems than we are, like, the family structure. And like, lots of things have changed in a short amount of time with the way America and the workforce kind of work together, and not in the best of ways, I don’t think.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, and it’s interesting, because that also- Part of the root of that: there is value and progress in women’s movement, of “We deserve to work if we want, how we want.”

SARAY RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

And that’s hugely valuable, but also that has contributed to exactly what you’re describing. So it’s like, you can seek a thing that then has unintended repercussions. And I don’t know that we could have looked back and been like- You- What would you do, say “No, women, don’t fight for this right”? Like, you know, what else are you gonna do? Like-

SARAH RAY  

[huffs] I think- I think the lesson to take from that is: when we are in those moments now, we should be looking back to that and going, “Okay, how are the oligarchs and the rich – you know, the oil barons – going to use this against us, in the way that they used women entering the workforce in a way that changed our economy that then required them to stay, and – quote – ‘both parents’ work in the workforce?”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. I maybe should have started with some kind of, like- I think, based on just what I’ve seen, in both our conversations, your podcast, things you’ve posted on Facebook, I think we are in a similar place in terms of just either unemployment or beliefs.

SARAH RAY

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

And so, there are a lot of people out there who – especially because a lot of our audience is in the US – this is a good example of, like: you have deep seated beliefs that, even if you don’t agree with what you’re saying, just, I would encourage you to just be open to what of your beliefs are based on an inherent truth about life, and what is based on “This is what I was trained to do,” because I think we’re gonna have conversations that, for some people, they’re just going to be like, “Absolutely not, these are dumb idiots who are too liberal to know what’s actually happening.”

SARAH RAY

[laughs] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And I don’t- I’m not- I don’t want- I’m not trying to say you have to believe all of this, I just want you to open up, and maybe at least reflect on it. I was a business major; I did that because I think I knew that that would help me make money. I graduated and then started working for [company name bleeped]- Ooh, I don’t know if I should bleep that out, [Sarah laughs] [chuckles] because that is important. I worked for a major tech company here in Seattle. My belief was that the invisible hand of the market should guide things that the market would regulate, – help regulate – that just- that just kind of trusting the market. Boy, I was- That was also when I was a Republican. So, I have- I am not coming to this saying that I have always believed these things. This is something that I have been on, probably, the side of someone that if I were listening to myself – you know – even 10 years ago, I would be like, “That’s a dumb, dumb idiot that doesn’t know anything about economics.” So-

SARAH RAY  

I don’t know about you, but like, these- those ideas were things that I was raised with, right? I grew up hearing that kind of stuff, like “The free market will even itself out,” and, you know, “Everything’s just going to be hunky dory.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I think- And- But, what I did at least learn in economics class that played a role in my deconstruction of that idea in the real world, is that the free market, when you learn that in an economics class, that is devoid of so many- that is, in a vacuum, the market will handle things. So you have to remember all the things that, like- that we cannot exist in that vacuum, and if you’re expecting that to work in the real world, in our world, in a world where we have so many other factors at play, like, that’s just not how it works. So-

SARAH RAY  

Correct. Yeah, that’s the economic philosophy of it.

KYLE GETZ

Exactly.

SARAH RAY

That’s not the reality of it.

KYLE GETZ  

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I do want to talk a little bit about some gay-ta, [laughs] and part of this is what I want to talk about: LGBTQ people and employment, because there are a lot of challenges out there. I’m gonna talk about some of my personal challenges, some of my beliefs. I also want to acknowledge that, in talking about unemployment, I have a lot of privilege in the- in being unemployed, even. I have enough money to live, and I am still comfortable enough in my unemployment that- Not- So we’re talking about a very specific – at least for me – a very specific privileged place that that my unemployment is coming from, and that is not representative of everyone, especially LGBTQ people’s challenges with unemployment. So, I want to talk a little bit more about that piece.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So this is from Investopedia, an article [TN: titled “Despite progress, LGBTQ+ communities continue to face disparities”] by Daniel Thomas Mollenkamp, who pulled in- seemed to pull in several different studies and kind of assessing the current state of employment with LGBTQ people. There is an LGBTQ pay gap. That is not too surprising to me, but it did outline the “wage hierarchy” as they called it, which- in terms of like, who makes the most money. So it goes: heterosexual men receive the most pay…

SARAH RAY

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Hi. Surprise. Wow. [Sarah laughs] …Then gay men, then lesbian women…

SARAH RAY

Really?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, in what they described as the “lesbian wage premium.”

SARAH RAY

[chuckling] Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, we’ll come back to that. …Then heterosexual women, and then bisexuals. Bisexuals make less than gay or straight people.

SARAH RAY

[quietly] Wow.

KYLE GETZ

And that’s- We talked a little bit about that on the last episode about hairdressers, but that is a thing that I did not realize and understand: that bisexuals, just time and time again, have this unique challenge of discrimination, and this is one of these ways that I’m seeing it show up.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah, it’s really weird, like, I would think of- in terms of like, the gender gap driving, you know, a lot of those differences. That’s something that we know very well. So it’s interesting to see how that breaks down with sexuality mixed in.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Why- You scoffed at the lesbian wage premium.

SARAH RAY  

[laughing] I’ve just never heard that before. I think that’s a fantastic phrase.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] To me, it’s- Agreed. To me, I’m also like, that helps inform “Where’s this coming from?” And it’s coming from a place of “We-“ Boy, I don’t know. I’m bringing in the stereotypes of what it means to be a lesbian, but we- we reward anything that appears masculine. To me, that- Like, the patriarchy is really driving who makes the most money here.

SARAH RAY  

Right. And how much of that is also affected by – you know – what jobs you’re allowed to have?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, the Williams Institute survey has said that 16% of LGBTQ-… No, sorry, not trans. Trans’s separate. …So LGBQ people have lost a job because of discrimination. So, discrimination plays a role in- Like, that study – or, a lot of studies – are trying to compare the wage gap. Studies are trying to say “Okay, given equal education, employment, industry, all this stuff, given everything else equal, what is the pay difference?” And that’s useful to know. It’s also useful to know: things aren’t actually equal, so let’s pretend we are in the real world that we exist in. What’s the inequality? So, it is important to know that one of the causes that builds on that then is 16% of people have lost their job because of discrimination. Trans people experienced lower employment, higher rates of harassment – oh, “high rates.” It didn’t even say “higher” rates, it just said “high,” so it’s like, comparison, sure “higher” rates, but “high” rates of harassment – high rates of unemployment. A couple different studies, the SF LGBT Center in San Francisco and the Williams Institute both found that around 50% of people said they were unfairly fired or denied employment for being trans. So we’re gonna come back and talk a little bit more about your personal experiences with interviewing and employment, but we’ll- I’ll put a butt plug in that real quick. [chuckles]

SARAH RAY

As a- I also feel like… I haven’t experienced a ton of harassment in the workplace or out of the workplace, and I don’t know if- how much of that is- And I lived in a really red rural area in Florida, and I expected it there, you know?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY

So, like, I do recognize that – like you said in your unemployment – I have a lot of privilege in the workplace, in the experiences that I’ve had, at least. Even – and we’ll come back to this, but – even in interviewing, I feel like I hear so many stories from my trans friends about these terrible experiences that they have, and I don’t have them to near the degree that I hear a lot of people in the community having them. And, like, on one hand, I- There’s a guilt that comes with that. Like, on one hand, I’m like “Phew, thank God it wasn’t me,” like “I’m, I’m doing okay here,” but also there’s so much out there that shouldn’t be happening, and I don’t want it to be happening to my trans siblings either.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. That’s interesting- Is there- Is that like a survivor’s guilt kind of thing?

SARAH RAY

Maybe, yeah. Maybe.

KYLE GETZ

That’s- It’s interesting, because that’s the thing about those statistics: like 50% have experienced discrimination. Well, that means 50% haven’t, and to set up people for expecting that kind of discrimination, there is still a burden that is being placed on you, that regardless of whether it actually happens, it’s like.. man, you know- this is a very real tangible chance. Surely that contributes to…? Well, I guess I’ll let you say. Like, that has to be a challenging situation to face, whether it comes to fruition or not.

SARAH RAY  

For sure. And hearing about it so much in the community puts that in your brain too, right? Like, so anytime you go into one of these situations, despite the fact that I feel, and see, and acknowledge my own privilege and I haven’t had issues like this before, you still walk into every situation feeling like “Oh God, this is gonna go- this is gonna go sideways,” and “Am I ready for that?” And then- But I’m also- Again, I’m the perpetual negative Nancy. Like, I have all those fears in my mind everywhere I go, like I worry about stuff. The anxiety is just so high.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. But- And I wonder how much of those go hand in hand, the anxiety that has been forced upon you.

SARAH RAY

For sure.

KYLE GETZ

Interviews in general, and just worried about how you will be treated – yeah – causes just generalized anxiety beyond that.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. I mean, I’ve been through, like, several different transitions [laughs cheekily] in like – you know – in the workplace. Like, I was at a company when I came out and said “Hey, I’m going to transition. Like, you guys need to figure out how to talk about this to the staff, because they’re gonna need to know.” And then I left that job, and we moved across the country, and I started a new job, and I was – you know – going through that whole experience of being in a new place, and meeting new people, and starting a new job, and that I eventually quit because it sucked, and that’s why I’m unemployed. [Kyle chuckles] But yeah, every step of the way there is that, like, “Oh, God, how are people going to react to just the simpleness of me being trans?”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whew. Um, so data, more data. All of this will further be compounded, so things like pay gap or discrimination will be compounded by intersecting identities like race and ethnicity. COVID definitely made things worse, and particularly LGBTQ people of color and trans people, it was particularly challenging for those parts of our community. Unfortunately the government doesn’t have sexual orientation or gender identity measures when they do their reviews of COVID 19, or surveys, so we don’t know- We have to rely on outside surveys, or outside studies, or – you know – just individual people just expressing some of these things. So there is a general need just for our government to acknowledge and measure our experiences. The last thing I’ll mention – not necessarily data, but related to all this – is: I did not realize in 2020 there was a Supreme Court case, Bostock v. Clayton County, and that said that our Title VII nondiscrimination, which those laws protect things like sex/race discrimination, it said that the sex discrimination that is already included in Title VII does apply, does mean that we are protected based on sexual orientation and gender identity. So there was a Supreme Court case that said, “No, you are federally protected in employment.”

SARAH RAY  

[huffs] I feel like there was a call to a previous case, a citation. There was a schoolteacher in Indiana that was ultimately fired, or chased out of her job, but it all started when, like, her wife dropped her off, or her girlfriend, or whoever, dropped her off and they kissed in the parking lot at the school, and – you know – everybody clutched their pearls and got their panties in a bunch, [Kyle chuckles] and so, well we just can’t have that. And so, like, job opportunities that should have probably come her way were denied to her, and she started being treated differently, and I wish I could remember that case because that was one of the holdings that came from that, was like: you would have- or, one of the arguments at least was that if my husband had dropped me off and kissed me goodbye, “Have a great day at work, honey,” you wouldn’t have a problem with it, but because of sex, because of the sex of the person, you have a problem with it. So it had nothing to do with- It did have to do with sexual orientation, but their argument was – because our civil rights laws don’t have sexual orientation and gender identity written into them at the national level – the argument was: “It’s discrimination based on sex, because this was a woman. If it- Had it been a man, it would have been fine.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And that’s- I thought, like, “Okay, we’ve been fighting for the Equality Act, maybe, like, got one-“ I mean, there’s plenty more in the Equality Act that would help ensure things like housing, or getting provided goods and services just in general. So there’s lots of that needs to happen regardless, but exactly- Like, the point they’re making is like, “Well, these days, we don’t know what kind of Supreme Court decisions get to be held up [chuckles] [Sarah huffs] and what doesn’t, so that’s not a guarantee.” But also, yeah, it is based on- It makes- The logic makes absolute sense to me, but it is not codified that sexual orientation or gender identity are like, written in there real clear, so…

SARAH RAY  

Right. And if the argument is that, “Well, the framers didn’t write sexual orientation and gender identity, so it doesn’t count.” Cool story, bro, let’s go write it then.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yeah.

SARAH RAY

Like, and do you know what we need to in order to be able to do that? Lots more seats in Congress. So vote, dammit. Back to the beginning.

KYLE GETZ  

Back to the beginning. God, what a good connection, I wish we stopped there. [Sarah laughs] No, I don’t wish we stopped there.

SARAH RAY

[laughing] I have so much more to talk about!

KYLE GETZ

We have so much more to talk about! Yeah, absolutely. I- I have gotten so annoyed at, like, whatever the fuckin’ [in a mocking, nerdy tone] “Framers of the Constitution,” or “The Founding Fathers,” like-

SARAH RAY

Oh, I don’t care.

KYLE GETZ

-I don’t- I don’t care! Well, okay. One, I don’t care. Two, if you’re someone who cares, I believe their intention was – it’s, like, every 18 years or something – their intention was that a government needs to refigure its shit out, like, very often.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, the- If you care about their intention, their intention was not this.

SARAH RAY  

Right, for sure. But, then if you look at like, what are the processes to – you know – add an amendment, like, the number of states that have to come together and say yes, and that whole process wasn’t a very achievable, or, I don’t know what the word is, but it- they didn’t- the foresight that they had on a lot of things did not extend to that one particular thing, I don’t think. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah, the barrier is so high, and the idea of everyone coming together behind these ideas is- [chuckles] Like, those two pieces, like, we are not in a place where that’s happening.

SARAH RAY  

Oh, bless your hearts, you really thought this was gonna go well, huh?

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yeah, yeah. Yep. The last data point that we will then move back over to talking more about, your experiences Sarah: uh, trans people. The day- I seem to find a consistently- In terms of unemployment, specifically, trans people tend to have three- two to three times the unemployment rates of non-LGBTQ people. So, I think gay people, it said – the numbers didn’t add up to me totally, so – it said that they were the double, around double the average. It looked to me more like one and a half times, and I don’t totally get it. So- But, things consistently reported LGBT- or, trans people having two to three times the unemployment.

SARAH RAY  

So, I can see things like, [sighs] because being trans for a lot of us is not something that we can hide – right? – it’s not something that I can put on my straight hat and just don’t talk about my – you know – my relationships or whatever at work, and kind of, you know, go under the radar and not be out in that environment. I am who I am, and I walk in the door, and there is no one that goes, “Nope, that’s a cis person.” [Kyle chuckles] Like, everybody knows I’m a trans person walking in the door, and, like, on a lot of levels I’m okay with that, right? Again, like, trying to use the privilege that I do have to go into those spaces and be like “You’re going to reckon with us, and who we are, and if I’m the one that has to sit here and do it, cool.” Um, but also, yeah, sure, there are times that I would just like to- You know, it’s that passing privilege and all that bullshit of like… [sighs] I just want to exist in the world without having to be an activist for my thing. Like, I dunno, It’s tough.

KYLE GETZ  

So much of people will call someone an activist, and it’s like, are they an activist? Are they working towards that? Are they being an activist? Or are they being themselves in public? [chuckles]

SARAH RAY

Right, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, they might not want to be an activist. They might not want to be the person trying to revolutionize this thing. Maybe they’re just trying to exist, and you think that their existence means they’re activists?

SARAH RAY  

Yeah, yeah. So-

KYLE GETZ  

Would you- I would consider you an activist, because of the work that you do to help, especially in the humanist/atheist communities.

SARAH RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

Do you call yourself an activist, or would you?

SARAH RAY

Yeah. Yeah, I would. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Okay.

SARAH RAY  

I mean, I’ve been on hold the last – you know – year and a half or two because of moving and whatnot, but, like, I’m excited to get into that again, because it is something that I’m passionate about. And that ties into my employment journey in a way that, like- So, my goal, if you were to, like, “Sarah, what position – you know – what would you want to be doing with your life?” I want to be engaged with a freethought humanist, atheist, whatever, church-state separation organization that’s working on those issues. I feel like where my bread and butter is- is like, on-the-ground community organizing, helping communities come together in local areas, and then all of the techie stuff that I do, right? Like, there’s no reason why American Atheists or the American Humanist Association shouldn’t have their own media – you know – conglomeration podcasts, and YouTube shows, and all of that stuff. And that’s a-

KYLE GETZ  

Is that something they’re behind on? Like, do they not have…?

SARAH RAY  

American Atheists used to have a YouTube show, like back when YouTube was new, and, uh, [chuckles] and it fizzled out for whatever reason. But yeah, there’s a lot of new media that- There are a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows and such in the movement, in the community, but the national organizations don’t seem to all be a part of that. And so that’s something I would like to – you know – get my hands into and get involved with too. Here’s the thing: these organizations run on like 13 employees, right? Like, it’s not- When you think “Ooo, American Atheists, aah, American Humanist Association,” nah man, it’s a nonprofit, like, they don’t have a huge staff. And so, like, I’m trying to get myself into the door to these organizations, in a way that I can continue doing the activist work that I enjoy and love and feel like I’m making a difference in the world, but also be able to pay the bills and eat food, which is kind of an important thing.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

And so, it’s- what I found was – you know – when last we spoke, I think I was working third shift at Disney’s government: the Reedy Creek Improvement District. And trying to be like a day person while you’re working overnights, and trying to- even just trying to do the things while you’re holding down a full time job, it really does not leave you the amount of time that I think many of us want to do the things we care about, right? We’re working because we have to, we’re working because that’s what pays the bills. But then there are these other things that are our passion projects or things that we’re interested in, that we don’t get to put our whole selves into because of the time commitment, or the lack of resources, or whatever it is. So I’m just trying to find a way to- You know, they tell you “Do the thing you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life.” Trying to do that.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, till- But till you get to that point- Like, you do have to work otherwise to get to that. Like, yeah.

SARAH RAY  

Right. So there’s a lot of- there’s a lot of components in my personal, like, being unemployed journey. So, when we first moved, we moved from Florida to Colorado like a year and a half ago.

KYLE GETZ  

That- Okay, I know this is not what this is about, but can we take a brief sidestep to-

SARAH RAY

Of course.

KYLE GETZ

To- You left Florida- Well, I mean, if people don’t know: you were in Florida.

SARAH RAY

Have you seen Florida?

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Yeah. Did you leave because of the political and shittiness, or was that just a good benefit that you got to leave there? [laughs]

SARAH RAY  

It was part of it.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

SARAH RAY

So, when I was a kid, my parents brought me out to Colorado, and we did all the touristy things, and I, just- I fell in love. And then, when our kids got to be a little older – this was like 2017, I think? – then I brought my wife and kids out here and we did, like, recreated my childhood vacation for them, and they all fell in love. And so, we all have this kind of like, “Well, one of these days, we’ll – you know – we’ll move west,” and – you know – Washington, Oregon, Colorado, were kind of the top three we were on the- looking at. And then – this was, like, you know, mid-COVID – Governor DeSantis decided that schools could not require kids to wear masks. However, it’s time to send your kids back to school now. And so, we- This was the thing that was holding us to Florida: we loved to the school that our kids were in, it was like an arts magnet choice school, you had to go into a lottery to – you know – get your kid into. Really great school, really great teachers. And we- we didn’t want to lose that. And also, like, I didn’t want my kids to have to go through that move across the country, or the new kid. Kids are dicks; they bully each other. Like, I didn’t want them to have to go through that, because they had good friends back in Florida. We didn’t want to lose all that. But when the governor was like “Yeah, so um, no mask- you can’t force kids to wear masks,” we were like “Cool. You know it’s still spiking, right? The pandemic isn’t over,” you know?

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yeah. Yeah, you’re bringing me back to, like- Oh my God. The idea of “You can’t force them”- 

SARAH RAY

Yeah

KYLE GETZ

-I don’t know. Just this revolt against the best thing to do for your health is- it was gross. I mean, it still is, it’s disgusting.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. So our solution was, “Well I guess I’m not sending my kids back to that school then.” So we unenrolled them, and put them in Florida Virtual, and did that for a little while, and then – you know – we got to the point where like, “Why are we still here?” Like, why- We- There was really nothing holding us down, like, “We miss our friends,” “Kids miss their friends,” like- but at the end of the day there was- it wasn’t like- my dream job wasn’t there, it was just time to go. And the benefit of that is: holy cow, have you seen Florida? [Kyle chuckles] And I don’t miss it, at all.

KYLE GETZ  

At what point was the Don’t Say Gay bill?

SARAH RAY  

Yeah, I think that was after we left, maybe, or, while we were in- Like, we had made the decision, and, you know, started working towards that. In fact, that’s the first milestone on the unemployment story. So, when I was working in Florida, I tried to do the right thing. Don’t ever do that. Uh- [Kyle laughs] [chuckles] Here’s some practical advice from Sarah: never trust HR. HR’s business is to protect the company. You need a union, not HR. Okay. So, I- The boss that I was working with, I had worked with at Disney many years prior. So we knew each other, like, we were friendly, and I wouldn’t say we were friends. We weren’t like “hanging outside of work” people. And so, I did – you know – an honorable and noble thing, and I said “Hey, I just want to give you a heads up; I don’t have any timeline, there are no dates, but we’re going to be moving to Colorado at some point. I’m looking for a job, we don’t have a place to live, but it’s going to be coming. Just wanted to give you that heads up.” Don’t do that. That was the first mistake. So this guy goes to HR and says, “Hey, so, Sarah said she’s probably going to be leaving soon. Can we go ahead and just open up the posting for that position, so that we can get a pool of candidates, so that when she does leave we have our candidates in hand and we can just- it won’t take so long to go through the process,” right? I understand where he was coming from, in his role, was “HR takes a month and a half to get someone hired, I wanted- I want to do this quicker.” So HR heard “Sarah’s leaving,” and said, “You need to go back to Sarah and get that in writing, with an end date.” And I said “I can’t do that, I don’t have a job, I don’t have a place to live, there’s no timeline,” right? I was just trying to be nice. And- So, the end of that story is that HR came back and said that based on the conversations that I had had with my boss and his boss, they were taking that to be my verbal resignation, and that my last day would be on the 15th.

KYLE GETZ

What?! What? How did- I mean-

SARAH RAY

That was it, and that- There was no arguing to them. Like, they had lawyers involved. There was no- So it was like, “Oh shit, we gotta find a job and a place to live, quick,” because, at the time, I was the only one making any income, right? Becca was taking care of the kids, and the house, and dealing with all of that. The kids being at home, homeschooling, was just- you know, she had to be a teacher too. So that was our only income, and it wouldn’t be long before, like, any savings that we’d had built up was going to be gone paying off the mortgage in – you know – months. We don’t have a savings, we have kids. [Kyle laughs] So, we scurried out quickly out of the state of Florida, and I took a job. [huffs] Let me stop here to say, like, I interviewed for a lot of jobs, right? So when I talked earlier about the generalists and the specialists… I tried three times to go to college; failed at all three. We had three very – you know – love-hate relationships. I went for a music education. I went for broadcasting because I was working in radio at the time, and when I left that I opened my own business doing computer repair, and website design, and all of that stuff. And so I thought “I’ll go back to school for that,” and college and I just didn’t get along, for a lot of reasons, and, like, one of the biggest ones is – you know – I knew what I wanted. And that didn’t involve years of math, right? [Kyle chuckles] If I’m gonna take computers apart, and put them back together again, and make them work, I really don’t need, like, algebra, and physics, and shit, for that.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY

Like- So there’s a- I don’t feel like our education system has gotten its head around to this generalist versus specialist thing either.

KYLE GETZ  

Aren’t there like, programs that you could go to that would just focus on that aspect?

SARAH RAY  

Yeah, I’m trying to think of what that’s called now. It was, um, like a trade school. Yeah, that’s what it is.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY

Yeah yeah. So, those really weren’t options when I was going through it though, because I’m so old, you know, so. [Kyle laughs] It was- Then it was, you go to a four year school and you get your degree, or if you’re maybe lower income you go to a two year school first – a community college – and then jump over. But we were taught, growing up, you will be a failure in life if you don’t have a college education. 

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, absolutely.

SARAH RAY  

Preached to us.

KYLE GETZ  

And college was seen as the golden ticket that once you do that, you will be given everything.

SARAH RAY  

Set for life, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

And that turned out not to be the case. Like, think of all of the people you know who have degrees, who are not working in their field of study.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

You want to have a medical degree to do medical things? Absolutely. You need a law degree to practice law? Sure. Like, there are some really good specialist things that require a degree, but I worked at Disney for [huffs] – I don’t even remember how long it was now – a decade, and there were these kids that would come through on the college program, you know, doing their hospitality degrees, and I’m like, “Sweetheart, come work here for six months, you don’t need that degree. You’ll learn it here in the fire, like, within a few months”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I remember- So when I graduated, I went to work in paid digital marketing, which, I majored in marketing, so that was close enough. But then I went through an entire month and a half of learning- We didn’t learn about digital marketing, much less like the paid aspect of that, like, I remember being in one of my marketing classes, and one of the students raised his hand and talked about what Google AdWords was, because the teacher didn’t know, and that was the closest I got to a conversation that related to my specialty.

SARAH RAY

Wow. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

There was one time during the training, there’s one time where I was like: “The four Ps,” and I knew that and was like, “Cool.” Like, that- Okay, that played- During my training I got to like brag that I knew one acronym from marketing, but you didn’t need to know- you didn’t need a marketing degree, you could be a human that kind of thinks through things and knows how to get tasks done, and can sit in a training. Like, that- My job does not require a four-year college degree, and so many times it is- Okay, wait. Now I’m realizing, like, we’re on the, like, we’re talking about employment, and we’re talking about college, but those things are, to me, like very clearly connected, but help break down, like- Why is that so connected to a discussion about employment, or the- or unemployment?

SARAH RAY  

Unemployment, right. So, as an unemployed person, there are two forks to this, I guess, and one of them is, like, there’s a part of me that, I don’t want to work. [Kyle chuckles] And people are gonna feel some type of way about that, and that’s fine. But, like, I want to create meaning in the world, right? I want to do things that are helpful to society in a way, but that doesn’t necessarily mean work as we sort of traditionally understand it. In the meantime, the mortgage is due. I need to work.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY

So, I’m like, out, you know, trying to become gainfully employed again. And, the most recent, and the one that I would- It’s kind of hanging out there in the air, that I would really like, and this is the most – I don’t know – unusual job hiring experience I may have ever had: It’s for a job that I am, like, if I were in their position, I would go “Sarah, you’re not highly qualified for this position, we can find someone who comes in the door with this knowledge.” Uhhh, Yeah. So I’m up in my head about that kind of stuff. And it is a lot of, kind of what you were just saying about, like, if you’re familiar with digital organizer as a function of like the nonprofit world. So when you get those emails that say, “There’s some issue happening in your state, click here to tell your lawmaker how they should…” – you know – “…how you think, as a secular constituent, you should vote for this or that,” they’re the ones that really kind of put together those campaigns, and manage the digital assets and all of that stuff. And while I probably have the individual skill set to do each of those things, when I received the skills test for this position, I was like, shut-me-down-for-48-hours overwhelmed by it, because it used all of this jargon and industry buzzword stuff that I wasn’t trained into. So I’m like, God, I don’t know if this is for me. Like, can I do this? And I feel a lot of that comes from not being formally educated in a thing. I feel like I missed that because I didn’t go through the – you know – the system and jump through the hoops. So, it makes finding work hard when you’re unemployed, and, you know, could I go get a job at, you know, Target shocking- stocking shelves or whatever? Yes, I could; probably not for the pay that I need, and that I- You know, Disney trained me as a people leader, so when I think of, like, what my bread and butter is, where my training lies, is being a people leader. And that translates to all different kinds of work environments, but you have the Disney mindset of like: you can take a good leader, and teach them how to do the janitorial stuff, but you can’t necessarily take a good janitor, and make them into a good custodial leader, right?

KYLE GETZ  

You reminded me of like my journey. You mentioned, like, you can- a lot of unemployed people could take jobs in, you know, generally in the service field that are unrelated to their specialty, or what have you. My- I’ve been unemployed a couple times in my life, sometimes because I was laid off, sometimes because I quit. I quit basically due to having really bad mental health. I ended up quitting my job in December 2019, and I thought I was going to take a couple months off, and then right around March 2020, pandemic; no way I’m gonna find a job now. So that was, like, I- I mean, I know this pandemic was a surprise to anyone, but my- I did- I- There’s- I thought- I work in Seattle, in, like, in tech.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, there’s going to be tech jobs, there’s always gonna be tech jobs. Whether it’s the level I want, or the pay I want, whatever, there’s always going to be jobs. So that was a huge surprise, so I did not work during the pandemic, and then finally when I did get a job it was vaguely related to my field, but literally less than half the pay that I was used to, and, you know, we always say “Oh, you can always do that,” like, one of the downsides is, like, when I go to a job, when I’m applying to a job, and “What salary are you expecting?” so much of it is based on what was your previous experience?

SARAH RAY

Right

KYLE GETZ

Like, am I limiting my future earnings by taking a lower paying job? And so much of this is like, I think people have such a narrow scope of- Like, you’re describing what are the skills you need? Or, how do we base your compensation? Or like, so much of it is based on these rules that we have. If you look back in the last year of my life and say “What have you earned?” or, “Your last job, what have you earned? So, that’s your expectation,” It’d be like, no, like, let’s look back two years. Like, the job I got during the pandemic was just, I needed something, so let’s look back two years and realize that I actually do have far more of the skills than you realize. And we just have a lot of really specific, calculated rules in corporate America that doesn’t always make sense.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. Well, when we moved out here to Colorado I took a job that was in my wheelhouse, but it was a step down and a pay cut, and I knew that going in, but we were moving across the country and these assholes fired me; basically, essentially, pushed me out. [Kyle huffs] These assholes pushed me out – right? – so I had to have something to get us out here, and that was our “something to get us out here” job. And then, thankfully, you know, Becca got a job with the American Humanist Association, which is great and she’s doing a phenomenal job with that, and so, we were okay with that pay cut. And then, I think I thought things were going to work out a whole lot better than they ended up working out, right? I thought “Oh, it’s a step down and a pay cut, but I can handle that.” And as it turns out, like, the person that they hired to oversee me had a lot less experience, and looked at the management position as a dictatorial one, of “I’m the boss and I tell you what to do, and you go do it, and that’s how we do this.” And I come from Egalitarian Land, where like, it takes all of us to make this thing happen, and we all have different titles, and we make different money, but one of us is gone it doesn’t work. You know, we all have to- we’re all kind of valued, from a leadership perspective, together. And I lead the team below me that way, and then that created a lot of conflict between my boss and I, as we had very different leadership styles of the team below us, and the team liked mine better, [Kyle laughs] sooo… that caused a lot of conflict, and it just fizzled to a point where like my mental health was so bad I just didn’t want to go into this place again. I don’t want to get up and have to go in and deal with this drama, this nonsense, again. It could be a great place to work, it could have been, and probably still could be.

KYLE GETZ  

Something that is jumping to mind, especially in this, is there are a lot of people that would say “A lot of us don’t want to go into work, that’s just what you have to deal with. A lot of people have to deal with drama at work, and that’s just we have to deal with. If you if you need money, you got to put up with that,” and as a-

SARAH RAY  

What are you, my dad in 1954 or something? [Kyle laughs] Because that’s what that sounds like to me.

KYLE GETZ  

Sure. I have a cigar, “Sarah!”- and a whiskey, somehow doing both. [doing a silly impression] “Sarah! Here’s what I think-“

SARAH RAY  

You get a job at a factory- This is what my parents did; my dad got a job at a factory, and retired from that factory job many decades later.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm, wow.

SARAH GETZ

It’s not like that anymore. And so, this, like, “suck it up” mentality… I’m sorry, I’m just not there for that.

KYLE GETZ  

And, isn’t it- I mean, you talked about your mental health taking a hit, and, like, isn’t that so sad that we’re like- that that’s the expectation? Like, sacrifice your mental health?

SARAH RAY  

We don’t care if you’re happy, you just have to be employed, and that’s what’s important.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. And I was to the point, like, the- When I say I quit my job because of mental health, I could not get myself out of bed. This is not a general, “I don’t want to, but I kinda have to force myself because we all have to work to make money,” this is a, “I’m struggling to get up, I’m struggling to take a shower, I’m struggling to attend a meeting, because I am so nonfunctional,” and that then spiral- Like, and then- So I did poorly at my job, I quit. It was- It was… I don’t know, I was gonna say “better” for me to quit and not have the added burden of failing at a job, but then I continued this depression spiral that was really bad. And, it’s- I don’t know if it’s because of work, but that was- Work was a huge cause of that. I think we so easily dismiss mental health challenges as, “That’s just what happens when you work,” and that’s so gross. [chuckles]

SARAH RAY  

Well, and even just to care about each other’s mental health, or our own mental health, is sadly such a new thing in like, the great timeline of the cosmos or whatever, right? Like, again, when I talk about my parents era, that’s just what it was: you get a job, you have to do it. Whether you like it or not, who gives a shit? You have to do it. I’d like to see us get to the point where, like, we care about each other’s happiness, too.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted- Speaking of your happiness at work, I want to hear a little bit more about – you did say you- like, you haven’t faced, kind of, the discrimination that you think other people have had, so tell me more – about what it is like to walk into an office or an interview being visibly trans.

SARAH RAY  

[sighing] Yeah. I mean, you carry so much into that room with you, despite not having experienced it firsthand. I should say, I do. So, I have interviewed for a couple of things since I walked from that last job. One of them was a store manager position for a sporting goods store. And, again, despite having no skill- This is one of those examples of like, “Well, this might have worked out, except they weren’t going to pay me enough,” where I have no- “Hi, I’m Sarah. Sportsball!” [Kyle laughs] Like, what do I know about sporting goods, right? But you walk into a room of, you know, it’s a sporting goods store, am I gonna get – you know – the good ole boy guy that works the gun counter?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. That’s what I had in my mind just now. [chuckles]

SARAH RAY  

I don’t know. Like, holy shit, I don’t know how it’s gonna work!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

SARAH RAY

But also, I will say, that, like, Colorado seems to be a pretty progressive place, unless you go too far east and then, you know, you’re in the fields, but, the Denver area, even up in the mountains, very- you know, there’s a lot of progressive- When I worked for the Denver Zoo, on my first day, one of my staff members came in did orientation with me, together, and they are nonbinary and introduced themselves as such with they/them pronouns in the – you know – the “welcome to the zoo” class, or whatever they make you do. And then we were walking around the campus, and I saw all kinds of diversity, and I was just like, “Oh my God, these are my people!” [Kyle chuckles] and everything was great, with the exception of the management problems. But it seems like there are a lot more visibly open trans people here than I have experienced in a workplace before, and I think part of that is, like, because Disney has such strict rules on how you can look, I think that plays a big role into it. Like, all the colorful hair that I’ve got going on, you can’t have that at Disney. At the zoo is fine, right? So you can kind of spot your people a little easier too, because we’re, you know, [Kyle chuckles] we’re brightly colored. [Kyle laughs] One girl had a trans flag butterfly in her hair, and I was like “Oh my God, these are my people out here, this is great.” So, that gives you a little confidence walking into the next place going, you know, “Hey, I’m here to apply for a job.” And- But yeah, you just don’t know who you’re gonna bump into, and what kind of crap they’re bringing with them to the interview.

KYLE GETZ  

I- I mean, I know you mentioned some of the feelings of guilt around not having some of these experiences, or- It’s interesting, with- I think having a positive experience like the one you just described, where you can walk into a room and there can be lots of other trans or nonbinary people around, progressive people, people that will openly accept you, like, we- we also don’t want to walk around, say, “Life is all bad for trans people, sorry,” and then leave. Like, there are great experiences and good moments that I think are important to showcase, so I appreciate hearing some of the positive things as well. I think there’s value in that.

SARAH RAY  

No, there’s definitely value in that. Like I say often, when I was a kid going through this – right? – it was like the 90s, and Jerry Springer was where you saw trans people, right? [Kyle chuckles] And it was, [in a southern accent] “I didn’t know my wife was a man!” or whatever.

KYLE GETZ

Yep.

SARAH RAY

Like, it was not a positive projection of gender diverse people. And so, yes, we need to have those positive examples.

KYLE GETZ  

I will say, also, my exploration of gender, clothing, and even gender identity, has all happened since COVID.

SARAH RAY

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

I have gotten- When I have depression- When I had particularly bad depression – or, most of my life – I’ve not thought about any of this stuff, because depression took up so much room in my brain. So getting treatment for some of the things I did, opened up me to- I still explore and work on depression and anxiety, but it opened up room in my brain to explore other things, which is great. The downside is: all of this has been happening with remote- during the pandemic with remote work, or not having a job, so as things- You know, they’re saying trends are- There’s less remote jobs, like, people may be starting to require more in the office, or, like, I don’t know where thing- how things are gonna even out. I have not explored any of this in the context of a workplace setting, so it is terrifying, and I’m in the early stages where I could very easily just wipe everything and show up like I used to show up, and things might actually be okay, because that’s what I’m used to.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it- But it also feels like taking so many steps back in this process that I’ve been on.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. It can be very scary, for sure. And especially like, [huffs] when so much rides on employment, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

Like, it’s not just the mortgage, and eating so that you don’t die. Like, we- So, my wife works for national nonprofit now, and they are based in DC, so their insurance policies are DC-based, which means if you’re a remote worker, not in DC, none- none of your doctors are in-network, because it’s a DC policy.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm, yeah.

SARAH RAY

So, like, we took it for a year and it had like an insane, like $13,000 deductible, and it was just- it was the worst. Her medications, like, went up six times what we were paying for it. One of them was free, and they ended up wanting her to pay like $300 for it. We had been not paying for it under our insurance. So, we finally, like, are canceling her through the job group policy and purchasing insurance from the HealthCare.gov, whatever, network. It’s different for- Colorado has its own state-level marketplace, but like, never thought I’d be doing that! But because insurance is so typically tied to employment, and we’re in a position where we don’t have that, this is this is what we have to do. It’s where we’re at.

KYLE GETZ  

I- Absolutely. During my work during the pandemic, this is also when I was getting high cost treatment for depression that my insurance- It was a shitty contract job. It was- It was fine. Hi, Mark, you’re okay. [Sarah laughs] It was, just- I got no- It was not- None of my treatments are covered. This is where I come from a very privileged place, where then I paid for it out of pocket, and they charged me much less than they would have charged insurance because I was doing that, they knew. So, it worked that I could get this treatment. Like, being depressed is very expensive. 

SARAH RAY

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

And, unfortunately, not having a job can be one of the ways that depression manifests. And so, it’s- There- You are right, there’s so much tied to employment that has nothing- that doesn’t even have to do with making money and eating food.

SARAH RAY

No.

KYLE GETZ

I think about going on dates, like, what, am I going to sit down- This is- My personal insecurities like, when I sit down and go on a date and they’re like, “Hey, what do you do?” and I have to be like… what’s my answer to that? Like, I don’t- And- I actually want to- During Patreon, we are going to talk about – what is the phrase? I have a right here. Everyone is fine, hold on, let’s get – uh, productivity guilt, where we’ll talk more about some of the guilt associated with not being productive.

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, unemployment. Any final words? Any parting thoughts before we take a break?

SARAH RAY  

[huffs] I don’t know. I feel like, in a lot of the topics that we’ve talked about from this stuff to the news, like, so much of what’s happening in our country, in our culture, specifically, I feel like comes back to a compassion problem. Like, compassion and empathy is a thing that we are just not doing real well right now. And so, when you think about people who are unemployed, I think we can all approach that, approach those people, with a whole lot more compassion, and empathy, and understanding than – you know – than we previously do where we detach the person from the problem, and, you know, [in a mocking accent] “Well, you’re just- There’s lots of jobs out there. The McDonald’s down the street is- never has full staff, go take that job,” right? Like, okay, but there’s a person in there too, and like, we should care about the person. And there’s probably a lot more going on to whatever that scenario is than you’re going to be aware of, and I just- I think we need to just be gracious with people, you know?

KYLE GETZ  

I- I don’t even like that I’m bringing this up. I think about when people celebrated the fact that Trump said “I use every legal loophole or advantage to my benefit,” and people cheered at that.

SARAH RAY

[sighs] Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

People were so excited. But when a person is unemployed, and use the available legal advantage of even applying for unemployment, or now getting health care, we demean those people, and it’s often the right – it’s often the Republicans, the same people that celebrated for Trump – will shit on people that do the same thing on an individual level.

SARAH RAY

Right.

KYLE GETZ

And I think there’s such cognitive dissonance that exists, that, I agree; I think, coming from a place of compassion, coming from a place of “There’s a human behind that, who-” yeah. That would help so many of our issues today.

SARAH RAY  

And like I mentioned before, you know, our love of hard work, right? We also love this idea of rugged individualism, and that’s horseshit too. Like, I’d like- I’d love to see us move to a more collective sort of mindset – again – where, like, people are valued because they’re people, period. The end. Can we- Can we work towards that?

KYLE GETZ  

Collective humanist compassion, or something like that, would be-

SARAH RAY

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I love that. Well, let’s talk- Let’s take a break and we’ll talk about productivity guilt.

SARAH RAY

Let’s take a break!

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON, with an audio splice of KYLE GETZ, replacing Mike’s name with Sarah’s]

This is the part where Sarah and Kyle take a break!

KYLE GETZ

Are you… Do you need anything? Are you ready to just come back?

SARAH RAY

I’m good.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Hoo, so, are we back?

SARAH RAY

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ

We’re back! We are going to do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, thank you so much Sarah, for being on and for stepping in from Mike, you did an amazing job.

SARAH RAY

Oh, thanks!

KYLE GETZ

Where can people learn more about you?

SARAH RAY  

Uh, you can find all of my projects at callmesarah.com, that’s kind of my main website, it has all my things on it. You can check out SarahTalk, is one of the podcasts that I do, at sarahtalk.com and @SarahTalk, or @SarahTalkPodcast, or something on all the socials. [TN: her Twitter handle is @SarahTalkRadio, and her Instagram handle is @sarahtalk] [Kyle giggles] We are still not consistently back with that yet since the move, but we’re getting there. And then, the new show that I’ve got going on with my friend Allie Ashmead from GO Humanity, is called Humanist Trek, and that’s a humanisttrek.com, and @ or / HumanistTrek on all the things, and we watch an episode of Star Trek each week, and then talk about the sort of humanist topics and implications that Gene Roddenberry baked into the series. Like, from jump, he was telling stories through the lens of humanism. And so, it’s great, because if you’re a Star Trek fan, Mike, you’ll find something there. If you’re not a Star Trek fan, we’re talking about themes- this humanist idea of taking care of each other, and, you know, there’s no one looking out for us, so we have to be there for each other. And-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

SARAH RAY

-telling those stories through the lens of sci fi is one of the best ways that we sneak those stories in. Gene was talking about, like, race and all- war, all kinds of issues that were going on, present day, through the lens of – you know – green aliens on a faraway planet. [Kyle chuckles] So, sci-fi has always been a good vessel to tell those stories in, and Star Trek’s kind of my fave.

KYLE GETZ  

It absolutely makes sense that those things are connected, and I’m so glad that you’re doing that. Humanist Trek is the podcast to listen to right after this one. Well, you can find us at gayishpodcast.com. Boy, I have to do all of this. Okay, uhh our-

SARAH RAY  

I have my lines ready to go.

KYLE GETZ  

Shut the fuck up, are you seriou- Okay. Okay! [laughs]

SARAH RAY  

Our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ  

You are continuing to blow me away. Okay, we are on a bunch of socials, @gayishpodcast or you can join our communities on Discord, Spaces, or Facebook groups.

SARAH RAY  

Our hotline: you can send Mike and Kyle dick pics and Gayish fanfic [Kyle laughs] to 5855-GAYISH. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ  

Nailed it. Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

SARAH RAY  

And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882, Seattle, Washington, 98109.

KYLE GETZ  

Mike, you- Did you just lose your job, Mike? I- Do- I might like Sarah better than you, so… I’m- We’ll open up the position to both internal and external applicants, [Sarah laughs and claps] this will make- you can reapply for your role, if you want to. I’ll consider your experience strongly when I make my final decision. Um, thank you Sarah. We are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest. Uh, Sarah, would you like to go first?

SARAH RAY  

Sure. So, I actually have three; I’m gonna give you a gayest, a straightest, and the transest.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Please do that.

SARAH RAY

So, I have been winterizing our house, and, moving from Florida up to the north, like, this is not a thing we had to do in Florida because it never got that cold. But so, now I’m doing all these, like, handyman around the house crap, like [Kyle laughs] closing up the air conditioning, and taking all the screens out, and blowing out the sprinklers, and that stuff feels very straight to me.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yep, yep.

SARAH RAY

Uh, my gayest is, I have- We are those people that take down Halloween on the 31st, and put up Christmas on November 1st. [Kyle chuckles] Don’t be a hater; let people enjoy things. Um, so- But we have probably spent- God, I’ve probably spent like $500 at Michaels already, [Kyle laughs] just on Christmas decorations. And I, like- [huffs] It’s a brand new house, we have to start all over. So I had to make all of the wreaths, and climb out on the roof, and hang them all up, and get them all perfect, and we have these- We’ve been crafting a lot – right? – so we made these giant bells that hang under the lights on our garage.

KYLE GETZ

Ooh.

SARAH RAY

So I’ve been doing lots of Michaels shopping and crafting.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s- [chuckling] Seems like the gayest thing someone can-

SARAH RAY  

Super. For sure. And then, my transest: as you may know, I was rear ended by a semi on my way to work at the zoo one day and my Jeep Gladiator was totaled, so now we’re down to one Jeep, and I feel some type of way about that too. Like, this is the first time since 1994 that I haven’t had, like, [emphasis] my Jeep.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, wow.

SARAH RAY

Anyway, this one has been needing service for a really, really, really long time. Like, all the lights on the dash were on, [chuckles] right? Like, it needed an oil change, and there was a tire- the pressure was low, and the brakes were really bad, so I sent my wife to take care of it. [Kyle laughs] Just avoiding stereotypically masc places – right? – like the mechanic shop, seems pretty transfem to me.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, my gosh.

SARAH RAY

Like, I- [Kyle chuckles] I don’t want to go sit at the repair shop for two hours while they do all this work. No thank you. So I sent- I sent Becca to do it.

KYLE GETZ  

[huffs] First, I love that, and I- but I was also gonna add: I think the transest thing you’ve done – maybe in your lifetime – is when you described that you were pursuing learning on your own computer programming. [both laughing] Don’t trans- Isn’t that a trans woman stereotype? Like, don’t-

SARAH RAY  

And probably that I love Star Trek, yeah. [Kyle laughing] Yeah those two things are probably- Yeah. Gave me away.

KYLE GETZ  

Well, okay, then I will do my Gayest, Straightest & Transest. [Sarah chuckles] My straightest is: I know I’ve been using- doing stuff around my home, and like, putting- assembling things as my straightest for a while, and I’m gonna keep doing that, because, it escalated when I had a friend over. I got a bunch of beer, and I got grease on my hands from doing something, so the fact that there was, like, grease on my hands was like, no, I’m gonna need to use this again because it continues to out-straight itself. My gayest- it’s actually my lesbianest, [Sarah chuckles] is that I went to Home Depot to buy the items needed to achieve said home project. [Sarah laughs] My transest is I’ve been growing out my hair.

SARAH RAY

I’ve heard about this.

KYLE GETZ

And, so my- My goal is longer hair, and I don’t know how long, but much longer, and so for the first time in my life I’ve been having to figure out things like hair clips and hair ties, and I don’t have them figured out. The first time I tried to use a hair clip, I put it the wrong way, and tried to clip it and it went up, and I was like “Wait,” [both chuckle] so I had to flip it around. The, uh, exploration of how to do hair long good is baffling me, and, I thought, my transest.

SARAH RAY  

Yeah. That’s the thing I think a lot of us trans women go through. Like, particularly if you’re not – you know – if you transition later in life, right? Like, I was socialized as a boy, so yeah I don’t- couldn’t sit around and braid each other’s hair, or, like, put on makeup or whatever. Like, I didn’t get to go through that, that awkward teenage time period where you get to explore and experiment with that stuff.

KYLE GETZ  

You know, I remember being in elementary, and ask the girl if I could braid her hair and she said “No.”

SARAH RAY

[gasps] Aww.

KYLE GETZ

I know. That’s okay. [chuckles] I’m gonna-

SARAH RAY

That bitch.

KYLE GETZ

That bitch. That third grade bitch. [Sarah laughs] Um, listeners, If you don’t know: every week, Derek, our production assistant, posts to Instagram to ask for your Gayest & Straightest, and then he posts some of the best answers, so, follow us on Instagram. But, I grabbed two of my favorites, so the straightest- and these are great, because they’re just- they’re just right to the point of what they are. The straightest: devouring ribs for dinner.

SARAH RAY

Yep. Uh-huh.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. Yep. Uh, gayest: I love this one so much: cock ring all day. [chuckles]

SARAH RAY  

[laughs] Yes, absolutely.

KYLE GETZ  

So, nailed it in four words or less, both of those, so thank you to our listeners. Thank you much to Sarah, for not only joining but for cohosting and for stepping into Mike’s position in a way that has me rethinking [Sarah laughs] just who hosts this podcast in general. So, thank you for being here.

SARAH RAY  

And thanks for leaving Mike, happy birthday!

KYLE GETZ

Happy birthday, Mike.

SARAH RAY

I do miss you, and I give Mike plenty of crap for flying literally everywhere in the world except to Colorado to visit me, so, [Kyle laughs] he kind of has this coming.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I also want to thank our Super Gap Bridgers, our patrons at the highest level that have been that for a year or more. Thank you to Christopher Muntean, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Staw- Shaw, Josh Copeland, – [huffs] sorry – Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, DustySands, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. So, from the Chris Khachatourians studio, that is it. I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week. Be butch, be fabulous, be you.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

Oh, Mike’s gonna be back next week. [Sarah and Kyle chuckle] Kyle, put that earlier in the episode. Mike will be back. It’s gonna to be great. He’s gonna be home, and it’s going to be great.

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]

Gayish: 307 Hairdressers

Other than Jonathan van Ness, why are so many famous hairdressers straight?! We talk about the hairdressing history, stereotypes, research and French people.

In this episode: News- 6:15 || Main Topic (Hairdressers)- 19:39 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:15:52

This episode topic was voted on by our wonderful Patreon Gap Bridgers! If you want to vote, either in the main poll or the tie-breaker, check out the levels and benefits at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 305 Anime

Topics include: anime, manga, hentai, otaku, emakimono, hāremumono, Ouran High School Host Club, Spirited Away, Hayao Miyazaki, Attack on Titan, Pokémon, censorship in Sailor Moon, Usagi Tsukino’s bisexuality, LGBTQ representation in Japan, and horrific murder. Thanks to Gap Bridger Mike Cubbington for requesting this episode!
 
In this episode: News- 3:08 || Main Topic (Anime)- 18:45 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:24:12
 
All Gaytrons of all levels can join our quarterly happy hour! The next one is Wednesday, November 2 @ 6pm Pacific / 9pm Eastern. Zoom info will be posted to Patreon closer to the event. We can’t wait to see you then!

Gayish: 304 Old White Ladies

Old white ladies are revered as gay icons, but should they be?

How was Angela Lansbury’s divorce gayish? How did Queen Elizabeth II really feel about gays?  What about the original lady who lunches? And is Jessica Walter the Patron Saint of Shitty Mothers?

In this episode: News- 7:39 || Main Topic (Old White Ladies)- 16:45 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:10:55

In the Patreon bonus segment. Judy. Fucking. Garland. Get bonus segments every Friday by joining at the $5/mo level. Or, support us for as little as $2/mo to get episodes ad-free and a day early at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 303 Furries

What’s a furry? What’s a fursona? Are furries part of the LGBTQ+ community? From sex, fursuits, fursonas, and Sonic the Hedgehog, which stereotypes are true and which are misconceptions? Also, Disney, Zootopia, furbaiting, and yiffing.

Get the FurScience (i.e. the International Anthropomorphic Research Project) book and research.

In this episode: News- 2:58 || Main Topic (Furries)- 15:34 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:41:33

In the Patreon bonus segment, Mike and Kyle delve into therians and otherkins, which are people who believe they are, at least to some degree, non-human animals. Get bonus segments each week (and a whole lot more!) for just $5/mo at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 302 Gambling

Mike and Kyle explore the parallels between gay and gambling by talking about religious views, the DSM-5 on gambling disorders, the conflicting studies, and Gamblers Anonymous. We also get into Jason Somerville, the only openly gay competitor in the World Series of Poker, and Brian Christopher, the most popular slot machine YouTuber.

In this episode: News- 2:03 || Main Topic (Gambling)- 16:45 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:22:01

Join our National Coming Out virtual happy hour on Tuesday, Oct. 11 @ 6pm Pacific / 9pm Eastern. RSVP at https://www.facebook.com/events/1516749878739194.

In the Patreon bonus segment, can Kyle get the Monty Hall problem right? Can you? Support us by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 301 MTV Gays (w/ Danny Roberts)

Danny Roberts from The Real World: New Orleans joins us to discuss the how he feels about his role in gay history today, other MTV gays like Norm Korpi, stalkers, parasocial relationships, his military ex-boyfriend Paul, PTSD, shrooms, and his HIV diagnosis.

In this episode: News- 1:37 || Main Topic (MTV Gays)- 17:14 || Guest (Danny Roberts)- 22:22 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:05:59

Follow Danny on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jdannyroberts/. Danny’s New Orleans Halloween event is on Sunday, Oct. 30, 2022 from 7-9pm benefiting The Covenant House (https://www.covenanthousenola.org/).

In the Patreon bonus segment, Mike and Kyle go down memory lane talking about the top songs on TRL on their birth months. Bonus segments, episodes, and content available at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 300 Q&A

Mike & Kyle answer questions from listeners, Ma Johnson, and the internet. We talk about whether Kyle was ever into Mike, getting hit on by straight women, and which hole is bigger.

In this episode: Main Topic (Q&A)- 7:56 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:34:27

In the Patreon bonus segment, Mike and Kyle ask questions they have come up with for each other, including topics like shrooms, dogs, and Have A Nice Gay. Join our Patreon for tons of great content and perks at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.