Gayish: 318 Ghosting

We talk about ghosting at 20:15 if you want to skip ahead to conversations about where the term came from, studies on who gets ghosted and why, and the actual impact on your brain of getting ghosted. But first, the news (starting at 4:29) includes M&Ms/Maya Rudolph, Pete Buttigieg, and the FDA’s new blood donation rules for MSM.

In this episode: News- 4:29 || Main Topic (Ghosting)- 20:15 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:17:05

On the bonus Patreon segment, we look and answer AskReddit questions about ghosting and being ghosted. See all the benefits of Patreon at www.patreon.com/GayishPodcast.

Gayish: 317 Artificial Intelligence

This is what AI came up with as an episode description: Lisa talks to a gay millennial named Will who loves the idea of dating AI. Find it on Apple Podcasts or search for “Gayish” on your podcast app.

(Human editor’s Note: that is not actually what this episode is about. It’s about ChatGPT, homophobia in AI, Alan Turing, the Mechanical Turk, and more.)

In this episode: News- 6:40 || Main Topic (Artificial Intelligence)- 25:23 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:12:53

Patreon reminder! Gaytrons of all levels can join our Patreon Happy Hours (the next one is Feb. 1!), get ad-free episodes, and hear episodes 1 day early. Visit www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast for all the details.

Gayish: 316 Rainbow Elders (w/ Dr. Linda Marchesani)

When was the last time you interacted with someone outside of your generation in the LGBTQ+ community? We have a conversation with our guest, Dr. Linda Marchesani, to talk about the experiences of rainbow elders, gayta on their unique needs, and the importance of connection.

In this episode: News- 2:48 || Main Topic (Rainbow Elders)- 15:31 || Guest (Linda Marchesani from GenPride)-21:13 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:01:19

To learn more about GenPride:

Join Patreon to get lots of great perks. All levels can join our Patreon Happy Hours (the next one is Feb. 1!), get ad-free episodes, and hear episodes 1 day early. Visit www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast for all the details.

Gayish: 315 Sex Tourism

Mike and Kyle take a tour through the world of sex tourism, including stops at Thailand; the Temple of Aphrodite in Cypress; Puerto Vallarta, Mexico; Tangiers, Morocco; and Mike’s recent trip to Palm Springs.

In this episode: News- 8:18 || Main Topic (Sex Tourism)- 22:15 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:27:55

On the bonus segment, we get into more of the origins of sex tourism research and the results of the gayta of what sex workers from Puerto Vallarta said. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 314 Twins (w/ The Zakar Twins)

The Zakar twins, Michael and Zak, join us to talk about coming out to their Catholic-Iraqi mom and stoner dad, being gay and Middle Eastern, their experience with sexual assault while modeling, and their feelings on getting *that* question as a twin (you know the one).

In this episode: News- 7:14 || Main Topic (Twins)- 21:41 || Guests (Michael and Zak Zakar)- 25:52 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:00:39

To get more of the Zakar Twins:
-Follow on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/zakartwins/)
-Follow on TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@zakartwins)
-Buy “Pray the Gay Away” (https://www.amazon.com/Pray-Gay-Away-Michael-Zakar/dp/0692986723/)
-But their latest book, “How to Be Fucking Happy” (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0578937379/)

On the bonus segment, Mike talks about a recent obsession of his, conjoined twins Sohna and Mohna Singh. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 313 Traditions

Black eyed peas in the South. Assorted New Years Eve traditions. Traditional marriage. Gayish traditions. Are traditions helpful or harmful?

In this episode: News- 1:17 || Main Topic (Traditions)- 15:37 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:06:00

On the bonus segment, Mike explains how the tradition of Pride was almost on New Year’s Eve instead of June. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 312 Merry XXX-Ma’ (w/ Ma Johnson)

Yo Saturnalia! Does “X-mas” take the Christ out of Christmas? What do Paganism and Saturnalia have to do with Christmas? Does it harm kids to perpetuate the lie of Santa? We celebrate A Very Special Christmas Episode with Ma Johnson.

In this episode: News- 9:10 || Main Topic (Christmas)- 21:49 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:13:35

As a special holiday gift, all Patreon members will get access to this week’s bonus video (which is normally only for the $10+/mo tiers) where Ma Johnson makes her famous cheesy bread. Support Gayish by joining our Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Gayish: 311 Feet (w/ Ma Johnson)

More than just a fetish, feet can be used to walk (and other things)!

In this episode: News- 3:57|| Main Topic (Feet)- 15:46 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:09:44

On the bonus Patreon segment, we read the earliest known poem about foot stuff written in like, 5 AD. Support Gayish by joining our Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ

The podcast that’s a top in the streets, and an emotionally devastated depressed bottom in the sheets.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Slash, all the time, everywhere.

KYLE GETZ

Slash, life is sheets.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and-

KYLE GETZ

Your voice is… the way it is, still.

MIKE JOHNSON

It is the way it is. [Kyle laughs] I- It’s- It might be like this forever now, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] New life, new voice, new you, new me.

MIKE JOHNSON

I keep forgetting that I can’t sing though, so I’ll get in the jeep and I’m driving around and then I’ll start, like, singing and I’m like [rasps]. It’s not working.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] You sound like me when I sing regularly.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Uh, today we’re gonna talk about feet!

KYLE GETZ

Today we’re gonna talk about feet! Super special, surprise, exciting guest that we have.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Ma Johnson!

MA JOHNSON

Do I know her? [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Who’s she?

MA JOHNSON

Hello.

KYLE GETZ

Welcome! Thanks for being here in the studio with us!

MA JOHNSON

Well, thanks for letting me fly over here.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MA JOHNSON

All expenses paid, first class.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MA JOHNSON

I think the Uber guy wants me. [Ma and Mike laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Wait, I picked you up. [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

Oh. Never mind!

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Oh, Jesus.

KYLE GETZ

But first…?

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, yeah. But first!

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna have a couple episodes, actually, that Ma Johnson’s gonna to be on. So, thanks so much, and you’re welcome.

MA JOHNSON

And you’re welcome.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, 100 words. Okay, here’s the thing. Here’s the thing: I don’t know if I’m permanently like this now. So, just so everyone knows. [Kyle laughs] So, um, we got 100 words, and I wanted to wait and do it when I could do the request, which was that it be dramatically read.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, I had so many ideas for this character. I was, like- I was using the MacCormack method, or whatever. The Kominsky Method? That’s- I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

The Miser technique? [TN: the Meisner technique] I don’t know what these things are.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Exac- Me neither.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Okay!

MA JOHNSON

You were just gonna bark.

MIKE JOHNSON

I was just gonna- [Mike and Kyle laugh] Yeah, exactly. Anyway, anyway, anyway.

KYLE GETZ

The Reynolds method.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, Kyle’s going to do this one so that we don’t have to wait until I’m better, which might be 2024.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Might be never. 100 words cancelled. Um, yes, I- Like, what I imagined- What we would have done from the beginning, when we planned this, is I am just going to read the 100 words. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, fine.

KYLE GETZ

So this is from… Tim… [fumbles words] Tim. [Mike laughs] Thanks, Tim. “So, like what do you think? Did you think that girl was pretty? How did that girl even get in here? Did you see her? She’s so short and that dress is so tacky. Who wears cheetah? It’s not even summer, why does the DJ keep playing Summertime Sadness? After we go to the bathroom, can we go smoke a cigarette? I really need one. But first, let me take a selfie.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Selfie! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Because people were missing the song #SELFIE [laughs] in our episode about selfies. Thank you, Tim. The one thing I will mention from Tim’s email is that he is- said he might be the only person posting #BeButchBeFabulousBeYou on TikTok

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. Which, our marketing department is all of you, and sometimes me when I have the mental motivation, but it’s mostly y’all, so thank you for spreading our hashtag wide and far.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Great. Yeah, yeah. Thanks TikTok.

KYLE GETZ

Thanks- Oh, did you just thank TikTok instead of Tim, the person doing it?

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks TimTok.

KYLE GETZ

Thanks Ti- [laughs] Your one source-

MA JOHNSON

I was just spreading hashbrowns. I didn’t know. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Um, that’s your 100 words. Sorry you got me instead of Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, me too. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

We doin’ the news?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah! Let’s do the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so, first, just a really quick update on the continuing story of the Club Q shooting, apparently. we now have more information about the person that, uh- did- did it-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-is the bad guy- bad person here. Apparently they use they/them pronouns, which many people think is just a legal strategy, but we have to go with it, right? Like, that’s the- that’s the way that these things work. So, they are a terrible person. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Uh, anyway, Anderson Lee Aldrich has been charged, but we’re finding out now that apparently the FBI knew that this person was crazy for a long time, and-

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

-was on their like watch list, and they did nothing about them, so, like…

KYLE GETZ

That’s super frustrating.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Uh, authorities-

KYLE GETZ

I mean, these are, like- If- A million people would be on the watch list based on my criteria, which is if you own more than maybe two guns I would put you there. Which, we can- We have such easy access to guns; that would be so many people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, they were actually arrested June 18th of 2021, on allegations that they were making bomb threats against their family members.

KYLE GETZ

Tshhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it led to 10 homes being evacuated.

KYLE GETZ

Oh my God.

MIKE JOHNSON

And the case was dropped against them, but we don’t know why because Colorado law doesn’t let us know, you know, what the reasoning was. So it might be they were totally not guilty. It could have been like a technicality and they clearly were. Who knows. But they were totally on the FBI’s watch list because of this bomb situation.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But then the FBI apparently closed its assessment of the case, and uh, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm…

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway. So, for all those people who are like, “We just need the authorities to pay more attention and to do something,” like, they can already, and don’t.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, adding additional authorities to the mix in this is not gonna-

MA JOHNSON

So what is the acronym the FBI stand for?

MIKE JOHNSON

Fuckin’ Bitches.

MA JOHNSON

Bitch Idiots. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Maybe? I dunno.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Ah, Fuckin’ Bitch Idiot.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, okay. News the first, which is actually also an update, so maybe we’re just doing updates today. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm. It’s Update Corner, brought to you by Jergens.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, there’s a lot going on. I’m worried about how to mash this much news into one episode.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, I dunno. Anyway, news the first: so, Brittney Griner was released from Russian detention. They put her on a plane and she’s back in the arms of her wife, where she belongs, and we apparently could do nothing worse in the eyes of Republicans these days than trade a prisoner. I don’t know. Anyway, I’m- We’ve talked about her a lot on the news, and, uh, she’s- but she’s back.

KYLE GETZ

She’s back! It’s very exciting. I mean, there- You know, there’s obviously a lot of opinions, and there’s shittiness to it too, but sometimes it’s like… can we be happy for a day?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I’m excited she’s back. That must be – I can’t even imagine – a huge relief for all of her- There are still people that are in- Oh no, I said it. Let’s be happy. I’m not gonna add caveats. So, it’s awesome. Welcome back.

MA JOHNSON

I cleaned all the residue out of my curling iron before I boarded the plane this morning, just in case.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, have you made bomb threats against anyone in your- Yes. [laughing] You’re shaking your head “Yes.” already.

MA JOHNSON

No. No.

MIKE JOHNSON

You use your curling iron to do bong hits? Is that-

MA JOHNSON

Well, it’s like a roach clip thing. [Mike laughs] You know. You’ll see.

KYLE GETZ

Ha, alright. Well.

KYLE GETZ

That’s- Some kind of bomb can be made out of that.

MA JOHNSON

Curling irons?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, come on-

KYLE GETZ

Or like, that’s the trigger something. I heard it in a podcast once, and everything podcasts say are true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. I’ve often said that you’re like the Gayish MacGyver.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] I’ve often said that I’m the Gayish sex-MacGyver.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. Oh, okay. I mean, a hole is a goal, I guess. [Kyle laughs, Mike chuckles] Okay, news the second.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know if you’ve been following this at all or not, but an American journalist named Grant Wahl has died [Kyle gasps] in Qatar.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh, no, I have not been following this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, uh-

KYLE GETZ

This is kind of like an update too!

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, yeah. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, I didn’t know what order I wanted to say all of this stuff in. So, he is an LGBT ally and was outspoken against the Qatari Government and got turned away because he was wearing a rainbow shirt to the stadium. But he is a- He’s a journalist. He does- He did a lot of work covering the World Cup. He’s not just a rando that’s going, he’s, like, he’s there working as a journalist on the inside. And uh, anyway, he got enough of a notice, again because he was outspoken against the Qatari Government and this rainbow shirt thing. He received numerous death threats-

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and stayed in-country covering the World Cup anyway. Then, December 2nd- 6th. 6th. 6 is a different number than 2. On December 6th he posted on social media that he was not feeling well, but that he thought he was on the mend. They gave him some medication and then he said he was- he was feeling quite a bit better. And then, Friday during the Argentina Netherlands match, he, quote, “fell ill.” At least, that’s what the World Cup organization said. And he received immediate medical treatment on-site and then was transferred to Hamad General Hospital and, uh, he- he died. It’s very unclear what he died from, what was wrong. Of course, many people are speculating that he was poisoned somehow, that somebody making those death threats against him made good on that. His brother is on record now as saying that he’s certain that that’s what happened. And he was also straight, so we’ve- we’ve heard from his wife, who said, quote, “I’m so thankful for the support of my husband Grant Wahl’s soccer family and of so many friends who’ve reached out tonight. I’m in complete shock.” Yeah, it’s like, fuckin’ sketchy. Sketchy as fuck.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. The coincidences involved in all of that is- That’s too much to be taken lightly.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. I concur, captain.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] We talked about David Beckham in the Patreon segment last week, and it just reminds me how big of a shit he is for being their ambassador. He will not- He will face no repercussions, he’s too big of a name to, and someone who’s a journalist is taking bolder action to support LGBT people than he is. Fuck him.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

MA JOHNSON

No thanks.

MIKE JOHNSON

Fuck that guy.

MA JOHNSON

No thank you.

KYLE GETZ

Do you follow the World Cup, Ma Johnson?

MA JOHNSON

I do.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah?

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

In what way? Like, spiritually-

MA JOHNSON

These cups are my whole world. [Mike and Kyle laughing] These two cups. Planned it.

MIKE JOHNSON

For those of you who are subject to the fact that this is an audio medium, she was pointing to her boobs.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, I think- [chuckles] I think- Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

I’m a 34 long.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God. Anyway, it’s a horrible situation, and, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, news the last.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

Have you seen the video of the crying congresswoman?

KYLE GETZ

I’ve heard of it. That’s when I- I can’t watch this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Well, U.S. Representative Vicky Hartzler of Missouri was on the floor of Congress sobbing because Congress was about to pass the legislation that codified rights for interracial and same-sex marriages in this country. [Kyle laughs] She said, quote, “I hope and pray that my colleagues will find the courage to join me in opposing this misguided and this dangerous bill,” and what’s really interesting is then, now getting a whole bunch of play or press, is her nephew.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

That boy gay.

KYLE GETZ

That boy gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Fantastic.

KYLE GETZ

Uh-huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

He is her nephew, and is totally, totally calling out; “Today a United States Congresswoman – my aunt Vicky – started crying because gay people like me can get married,” and just reads her to filth on this TikTok, and it is magical.

KYLE GETZ

Family members coming out and speaking up against shitty people, and especially study politicians, is my new favorite thing, because they have so much power in that situation. The cousin of someone, the son of someone, the- You know. They can- They have, like, an in. They can be like, “Nooo, that sucks.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

I love it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. So he says in the clip, if you can’t find it, “Aunt Vicky, that’s not right. Institutions of faith, like religious universities, are not being silenced. They’re being empowered by the US government to discriminate against tens of thousands of LGBTQ students because of a religious exemption, but they still receive federal funding.” “It’s more like you want the power to force your religious beliefs onto everyone else, and because you don’t have that power you feel like you’re being silenced, but you’re not.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

“You’re just gonna have to learn to coexist with all of us, and I’m sure it’s not that hard.”

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] That’s hilarious. Yeah. I forget who this started with, but someone was wearing a mask that said “silenced” or something, and it’s like, you’re a congress person on the floor of Congress. You are one of the people making legislative decisions. You have the power. You are the person in power.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

If you are standing on that floor as a representative, you are the person in charge and you are not being silenced.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

You are literally representing lots of people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s- Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

She needs reverse-conversion therapy.

KYLE GETZ

Oh my God, I love it. Like gay conver- Wait. Conversion, but like, gay-conversion therapy?

MA JOHNSON

Right.

KYLE GETZ

Like, “Let’s make you gayer.” [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That’s so smart.

MA JOHNSON

Or sympathetic, or-

KYLE GETZ

Or, yeah, have-

MA JOHNSON

Just understand. Just-

KYLE GETZ

-emotions, yeah.

MA JOHNSON

-get your head out of your vagina. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Put her in a room full of drag queens until she sobers up.

KYLE GETZ

Cracks. There we go.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] I love reverse-conversion therapy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, I saw a follow-up interview with the nephew, Andrew, and he was saying that not only was he put through conversion therapy, he was put through conversion therapy by her friends-

KYLE GETZ

Oh, wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

-that he has since seen her make public appearances with, the people that put him through conversion therapy.

KYLE GETZ

Eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, it’s- it’s really horrible. He’s adorable though. So, anyway. That’s the news!

KYLE GETZ

That’s the news! Hoo! I want to thank the following adorable people are your Patreon members: Michael-

MIKE JOHNSON

This- See, last week-

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON

-I had to, like, intervene.

KYLE GETZ

You had to intervene spoon-feed me a transition?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, and this time I was gonna say “these conversion therapists,” which, that’s not good.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, no, they converted to being a Patreon member, which is the best kind of conversion therapy!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Michael Reusz. I will pause a moment and say, I looked up the pronunciation of Michael’s last name. The first and only time I’m gonna do that. I just looked at this name and I was like, “That’s too many consonants together,” [laughs] and I don’t know what to do. So, you’re welcome Michael! You got a treatment. I hope that’s- If that’s not how you pronounce your name don’t fucking tell me. And-

MIKE JOHNSON

Or do.

KYLE GETZ

Nope, don’t!

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Tell me, and then I’ll tell him.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, tell Mike in private. Uh… And Dustin Haldowan! Sorry, Dust- [Mike coughs loudly]

MIKE JOHNSON

Sorry, Dustin, for fucking up your name.

KYLE GETZ

Sorry, Dustin, for Mike’s outburst, and that I didn’t have more to say about your name. Um, if you want to be a Patreon member, you get monthly momsplainings-

MA JOHNSON

Woohoo!

KYLE GETZ

-and bonus episodes, segments. Join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, do it.

KYLE GETZ

Speaking of Patreon…

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, we have them to blame for this, everybody.

KYLE GETZ

Yes. I am back, baby.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah you are.

KYLE GETZ

We submitted this as our monthly vote, where we- each of us submits topics and our Gap Bridgers get to vote on which topic we are talking about. So that’s why we’re talking about feet. I submitted feet. I have not won in quite some time. I just needed- I just needed this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It was a bit of a gimme. Although, feet has lost in the past. It’s lost many times. It is a longtime loser. So, anyway.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah. You believed in it. It was the little feet that could.

KYLE GETZ

Aww!

MIKE JOHNSON

And here we are.

KYLE GETZ

Run, buddies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Run. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Run, little buddies. You can do it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Also, you seem very proud of yourself today. You seem chipper, upbeat, ready.

KYLE GETZ

I’ve lost so many times. It’s about time.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I’m always ready.

MA JOHNSON

I voted for vagina. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

That was- You know, we thought with the timing it’d be fun to talk about, but you know, now’s not the time for vaginas.

MA JOHNSON

Vaginas are way up on the- So, feet are down at the bottom. [Mike laughs] Go way up the food chain.

KYLE GETZ

That’s true! Well, if we are going- Throat did win the tiebreaker vote, so.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

MA JOHNSON

[gags] [Mike and Kyle laugh] That was my gagger.

KYLE GETZ

It’s gonna be mostly an episode of that. Anyway, um, in addition to Patreon requesting this, or voting on this topic, we’d also gotten this request from many people, one of which is AlanJay requesting to do feets, so.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, also in Patreon, Chris Khachatourians commented “I need Ma Johnson’s opinions on chokeslams.”

MA JOHNSON

Oh yeah, baby. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know what that means, or what that has to do with this.

MA JOHNSON

Well, I can define that for you.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah? Can you? What’s-

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Define “chokeslams”.

MA JOHNSON

Did you want the news first, and then the history? [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

The history of chokeslams!

MA JOHNSON

And then the- The history of- So, just think about it. Break it down, you know? You’ve got a choker, [Mike laughs] a chokee-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Uh-huh. And some slammin’.

MA JOHNSON

Slammin’!

KYLE GETZ

That’s- Alright! Love that definition. There you go.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. I just learned about smash, [Mike and Kyle laugh] so I’m like whoa getting my head around that deal.

KYLE GETZ

We’re already learning so much on this episode.

MA JOHNSON

I know!

KYLE GETZ

Anyway, that’s why we’re doing- That’s the history of why we’re talking about this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, exactly. Exactly right.

MA JOHNSON

Did I answer the question?

KYLE GETZ

Uh.

MIKE JOHNSON

I dunno, did you? Do you have more to say?

KYLE GETZ

You- You said words in response to the thing I said, which, that’s all that doing this podcast is.

MA JOHNSON

Okay. Okay, good. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I think that’s a yes.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Did I answer your question?

MA JOHNSON

Gayish, the podcast that pretends it knows what it’s talking about and definitely, for sure, literally… doesn’t. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, well, so I was gonna talk about the history of feet but that’s- they’ve been around a while.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm. Since the birth of the first human, [Mike laughs] feet have played an important role in the mobility of humans.

MIKE JOHNSON

Funny thing, Kyle: more than just humans have feet.

KYLE GETZ

Get out.

MA JOHNSON

Shut up, no!

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s even before that. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] That’s very true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Instead, I’m gonna talk to you about the history of foot fetishes.

KYLE GETZ

I was- As I was preparing I was like, “Okay, we all know that an episode called “feet” is an episode about foot fetish, right?” Like, we just are accepting that that’s the premise of this episode, right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Or measurement systems is fine. You know.

KYLE GETZ

That’s true. That’s true. That’s true. That’s why we brought your mom in, to add some variety.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Okay. I’m ready though. I’m ready for it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, well, so, first we gotta talk about what a foot fetish is.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And there are a lot of different sort of working definitions of what foot fetishism is. This is Wikipedia, quote, “A pronounced sexual interest in feet.”

KYLE GETZ

It’s not a passing interest in feet. Pronounced.

MIKE JOHNSON

“…points of attraction may include the shape and size of feet, feet soles, toes, jewelry ([like] toe rings, anklets, etc.), treatments ([like] massag[e], washing a partner’s feet or painting partner’s toenails), state[s] of dress ([like] barefoot, flip flops, ballet flats, sandals, high heels, hosiery, socked feet, etc.), foot odor or sensory interaction ([like] rubbing the foot, smelling [them], tickling, licking, rubbing genitals on foot, etc.),” and- What happened with the sandals, again? Are you gonna talk about that later?

KYLE GETZ

Oh, oh, no- Oh, I just- I took a picture, because I thought it was funny, when I was at my parents lake house of my feet up on the, like, railing and the lake behind it, and then, you know, was-

MIKE JOHNSON

Spell “railing”.

KYLE GETZ

Sure. [Mike and Kyle laugh] I, you know, posted something like “#Chillaxing” because I’m a cool dude, and someone commented like, “No, don’t do this! Do an episode about foot stuff and you’ll figure out why!” and I think it’s just- I saw this big Reddit thread. I was searching for this. If there’s something that I just didn’t know about this that, like, that’s a big no-no in the foot world or something. And there were just a bunch of Reddit posts that were lamenting people that wore socks with sandals, especially during summer or during times when your feet could be out because it just-

MIKE JOHNSON

Because it covers the feet.

KYLE GETZ

It’s just hiding the good stuff. And then someone else commented and was like, “This is a good time to have both an interest in feet and socks.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, that person wins.

MA JOHNSON

And gray sweatpants.

KYLE GETZ

And gray sweatpants season is a- is a thing in the gay world.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

And not bunions.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] They’re thing in moms world too.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so, the reason I wanted to go into all of that though, is I seriously thought about a foot fetish as just being, like, what they look like, like people lusting over your picture, and then, like, interacting with them, either on or about the face or in the mouth.

KYLE GETZ

Uh-huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I had always, in my head, sort of separated out these other things, like socks and shoes. I know that there’re fetishes for those things. I had not, like, put them in the umbrella of, like, feet. Or the smell, like the raunch aspect, the odor stuff, I had never really considered part of it either. But apparently- apparently it is. It’s all interrelated.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. You seem particularly surprised by the interaction with genitals portion of it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my God.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, we have some- What? Oh, God, Mom, what are you doing? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Mom is rubbing my feet with her feet. [Ma laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, great. That’s comfortable for everyone.

KYLE GETZ

I have no qualms. [all laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

A great moment for us all.

KYLE GETZ

This is normal.

MA JOHNSON

I just gave you some of my smell. [all laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh no.

KYLE GETZ

My feet thank you. [laughs] Some dude I hook up with next is gonna be like “…and a hint of mom?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh my God.

MA JOHNSON

Tasteful moulage.

KYLE GETZ

Tasteful ma-lage. Okay

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We can talk more about our personal stuff later.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. I’ve never had somebody put their dick on my feet or nor have I put my dick on their feet.

KYLE GETZ

That’s funny, Mike, because recently-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah?

KYLE GETZ

-very recently-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah?

KYLE GETZ

-a dude-

MIKE JOHNSON

We could talk about personal stuff, but here we go. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I- It’s just relevant to this very moment.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Like, so I had trouble with the dude this week, that, um- It doesn’t matter. And he’s like, into feet stuff, and I’m always like, “Cool. I don’t know what to do. Like, I don’t get it. Not because I’m trying to shame you, I just don’t know what you want me to do.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Right, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

“Do you want me to like, put my toe in my mouth, or what do you want me to do?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. You can do that.

KYLE GETZ

Seductively. You can?

MIKE JOHNSON

I haven’t tried in a while.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. Give it a shot, it’s fun.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

Do it now. [laughs] Um, and-

MIKE JOHNSON

I have a bad back, Kyle. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

And he took my feet, and he made a little cup out of it and stuck his dick through the hole.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. Intercrural.

KYLE GETZ

Like- Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah yeah! So I was like, I didn’t know that was going to happen, totally down, and I was like, “Oh, you can make a hole out of that!”

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Great.

KYLE GETZ

Your feet can become a hole if you work hard at it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Wow.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Good timing! It’s like that dude planned it. Thanks…

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks, dude!

KYLE GETZ

…whatever your name was. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks, My- MyFeetMakeAHole32. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Um.

KYLE GETZ

Anyway.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway, all of that counts, or is considered like highly related. So much so that, apparently – I know that you do data and I’m sorry that I’m gonna say a gayta thing, but – in a 1994 study, 45% of those with a foot fetish were found to be aroused by smelly socks or feet. [Ma gasps]

KYLE GETZ

I’m gonna go ahead and cross that off my list of things I need to talk about.

MIKE JOHNSON

Which-

KYLE GETZ

Yes, very connected, which, I mean, makes sense.

MA JOHNSON

Seriously?

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so, we- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I’m with you. I’m with you. It makes sense in a weird way that he can’t articulate or understand.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I mean, like, if you like feet, there are things that come along with feet, and it would make sense that you might be more likely to like those things as well.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yyyeah.

MA JOHNSON

Wouldn’t it be just a general all-around like stinky- ‘Cause if you like butt smell, or like, pussy smell… or like, feet smell…

KYLE GETZ

I sometimes forget that straight people exist, so I didn’t-

MA JOHNSON

If you like barnyard smell…

KYLE GETZ

Barnyard smell.

MA JOHNSON

If you like money smell… Oh yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Ooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Which is really just all those other smells combined, because money is filthy. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Money equals feet plus pussy plus barn. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Weird math, brought to you by Gayish.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s definitely some biological components to what’s happening here, just, the way that it’s been studied, like, there’s some theories about how people’s brains are wired that I’ll go into in just a little bit. But, uh, foot fetishes have been documented for a really long time. There’s a couple of erotic poems called “To a Barefoot Woman” and “To a Barefoot Boy” written by the ancient Greek writer Philostratus.

KYLE GETZ

I legit copied down the poem To a Barefoot Boy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Are you gonna read it later?

KYLE GETZ

Uh, either now or maybe on the Patreon segment.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, let’s do later. Let’s do later.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, so we will come back to that. The Hindu God Shiva was aroused by the sight of Parvati’s feet in the 8th century text Skanda Purana.

KYLE GETZ

Wow, it’s a religious thing too?

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s a religious thing.

KYLE GETZ

Damn, foot fetish; didn’t know that was God incarnate.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Bertold of Regensburg, in 1220, made a reference to, like, being super-duper into feet. It’s just- It’s not a recent thing. A lot of people think it’s a recent thing, and some components of it are recent, and I’ll go into that, but it’s been around a long-ass time, and we’ve been aware of it and writing about it for a long-ass time.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm. It’s so funny to me that there’s a poem about, [Mike laughs] like, foot fetish.

MIKE JOHNSON

An ancient- An ancient Greek poem about foot fetishes? Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

For reals. Okay, so, there- It is problematic when you start talking about fetishes because often sometimes people ask the question, “Why or how did that happen?” with “That’s bad and I want to blame something,” and I want to be, like- I want to not yuck anybody’s yum, and I don’t want to cast shame, and I definitely want to talk about the theories of why people are like this.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yea- [chuckles] The phrase “why people are like this” is also-

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughing] Why you people are like this.

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no. I agree. I also am very interested in what makes these things happen. It’s interesting to learn about.

MA JOHNSON

‘Cause it’s my jam. My toe jam.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh…

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughing] Oh no.

KYLE GETZ

Noooo….

MA JOHNSON

You can cut that out. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

So, one of the first people to study fetishes was Freud, Sigmund Freud.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, God, I bet we’ve disproven everything he’s said.

MIKE JOHNSON

He believed that fetishes arose during early childhood. There are people that are still into that as a general idea.

KYLE GETZ

Hm. Maybe.

MIKE JOHNSON

He suggested that, when a child saw their mom’s genitals, they were shocked to find that their mother did not have a penis, leading to a fixation on objects or body parts that looked like penises. And in the case of foot fetishes, Freud’s theory states that they occur because a person perceives the foot or toes as a penis substitute.

KYLE GETZ

I had a guy that viewed toes as penis substitutes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah?

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Was that this week?

KYLE GETZ

Boop! [Mike laughs] Just a little “Boop!”

MIKE JOHNSON

Just right- Just right- right in the hole?

KYLE GETZ

Just right up… you know. That’s not true. [laughs] It’s hard to tell, right?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know who you- I don’t know your life.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t either, sometimes.

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean…

KYLE GETZ

Okay, Freud. Everything’s a penis, guys.

MIKE JOHNSON

With Freud, everything’s a penis, and that includes feet apparently, in his, like, view of foot fetishism.

KYLE GETZ

We have the rare opportunity where your mom is right here.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

How do y’all feel about Freud’s theories of so much about your mom is based on lack of a penis. [chuckles]

MA JOHNSON

Who is this? [Mike laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Who are you? Why are you here?

MA JOHNSON

Who are you, again?

KYLE GETZ

Are you talking to me?

MA JOHNSON

When did you land?

MA JOHNSON

So, when the baby’s born you count the appendages, right? I think that, because they’re so cute and tiny and cute, I think there is like a fixation from the parent aspect.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, other way a little bit.

MA JOHNSON

Like, cute little tiny feet, little- You know? And then watching the progression of them, you know, grow into walk-hood.

MIKE JOHNSON

I have definitely, like, this-little-piggy-went-to-market-ed an infant baby before and thought to myself, “I wonder if I’m fucking this kid up.” [Kyle laughs]

MA JOHNSON

Exactly. Exactly. Yea, no, you did. You are solely responsible. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Fuck that kid. This-little-piggy-ing- Especially the one that got left behind, or whatever the fuck the story goes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

But, I think that because through history certain parts of- body parts were exposed and not exposed?

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

MA JOHNSON

So I think bare feet, feet… Maybe there was some sort of fantasy imagination about “Okay, what’s the rest of that look like?” kind of situation, and then, you know, just narrowmindedness, basically. If you can’t expand your world into upper body parts, you’re stuck at the feet.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, wow. Bold stance on people that are into feet. Have you thought about the rest of the body? [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MA JOHNSON

Not really. I just- I- You know. I have my moments, but [Ma and Kyle chuckle] I would think more hand fetish appendages than feet.

KYLE GETZ

Oohh, I don’t- Foot fetish is – or interests or whatever – is the top, like, sexual interests.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, um, it’s- But you’re right, hands can do a little bit more, sexually, so that’s interesting that we don’t talk about hand fetishes.

MA JOHNSON

Are there?

KYLE GETZ

I mean, surely if it’s-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, there are. Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Surely there is, but-

MA JOHNSON

Well I know, but it’s not as kink- ‘Cause today when I was doing my research – haha, for the podcast – um, that foot fetish is a huge- like, up in the number one-ish two-ish isn’t it? As far as kink for straight people, or, you know, whatever. So…

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Which is very interesting to me because holy crap-oly [Kyle laughs] there’s a lot going on when you’re walking through the whatever without shoes or with shoes or whatever. There’s a lot of not good stuff that lands down there, so I don’t understand.

KYLE GETZ

That’s part of the thing I didn’t know, and I guess I didn’t research this so I don’t know the answer, is like- And, okay, everyone has different interests. So, you described a lots of different things people can like about feet. I didn’t know- I was like, “Do you want me to wash my feet before we come over? Do you want me to not wash it?” That’s where I just need help on knowing what to do, and-

MA JOHNSON

And Jesus symbolism of washing the feet. Mary, you go girl!

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Jumping well ahead, but there are- there are some safety risks, according to healthline.com, to foot fetish play.

MA JOHNSON

Five second rule! [Kyle laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

And particularly when you don’t, like, clean up first, and- But first, STIs. Some STIs are passed through genital contact, but others can be shared by rubbing skin on skin, and feet have been implicated. Genital and oral herpes, HPV, and syphilis can all be spread through contact with skin and potentially feet, especially because of the moisture involved. Skin infections, molluscum contagiosum is a skin infection that causes lesions or raised bumps, can be shared through skin to skin contact. Impetigo is a highly contagious skin infection. Fungal infections, like athlete’s foot, can also be shared through contact with infected skin or even shoes a person with an infection wore. And cuts, sharp toenails can cut delicate skin around sensitive areas.

KYLE GETZ

Ah.

MA JOHNSON

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Keep toenails trimmed and clean, and ask your partner to do the same if you anticipate getting your feet involved in the action.

MA JOHNSON

And what about pinworms?

KYLE GETZ

What about pinworm- Let’s talk about pinworms. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

They don’t write, they don’t call. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Jesus.

KYLE GETZ

I mean- Okay, all the things you described as, like, skin-to-skin contact though; you’re doing- feet or not, you’re doing a lot of that stuff anyway, so the additional risk of getting your feet involved, it doesn’t seem that high to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. I’m with you. I agree.

KYLE GETZ

So I mean- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think that was also- That particular section was in response to the idea that it’s without risks as a just foot stuff only and nothing else.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I mean, what in life is zero risk though, you know?

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

MA JOHNSON

My vagina, apparently, because I’ve got serious atrophy. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so, speaking about STIs, there are- there was some research that was done that hypothesizes that foot fetishism increases as a response to epidemics of STIs. And that- It kind of goes back to what you guys were talking about, of like, “Have you considered the whole body?” Sometimes people do consider the whole body, and it is dirty, bad, wrong, disease potential, and so they- those feelings get shifted to the feet because it’s not the rest of the body. So like, a couple of examples: there was a increased interest in feet as sexual objects during the great gonorrhea epidemic of the 12th century in Europe, and then the syphilis epidemics of the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. And in the same study, they found that foot fetish depictions in porn was measured over a 30-year interval, and they noticed an exponential increase during the period of the current AIDS epidemic, and in all of these cases it’s believed that it’s because sexual foot play was viewed as a safe sex alternative. So people tried it and got into it because other kinds of sex were- were not okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. They were like “We can’t do the sex stuff, or that’s riskier, so let’s get our bingo card of other options and, hey, feet seems good.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

But the condom still tastes the same on the foot or on the penis. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

God.

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely true.

KYLE GETZ

You need 10 condoms every time. So fucking frustrating.

MIKE JOHNSON

Then I found a thing. I don’t know- I don’t know how it fits in here, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, that’s what he said.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s what he said. Um, there’s another hypothesis about fetishes and foot fetishes, that they occur due to learning that being attracted to feet leads to a reward of some kind.

KYLE GETZ

Hm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Research suggests that people can link typically non-erotic objects or body parts to arousal through positive feedback, and even monetary prizes. They- There was a study that took people and they exposed them to fetishized material that they were like, kind of just a little into, and then paid them cash money, and observed that they got even more into it [laughs] over time, which I thought was interesting. Um- What?

KYLE GETZ

I don’t understand. Who’s getting monetary rewards other than the women of wikifeet.com? Like, who’s making money off of feet? Who’s getting rewards?

MIKE JOHNSON

The subjects of the study.

KYLE GETZ

No, I get that. But as a bigger representation, you said people are- might be into it because they’re getting rewards of some kind. What rewards are people getting?

MIKE JOHNSON

Y-Yeah. The other- I mean, it’s always sex, money, or power, right? Like, that’s the-

KYLE GETZ

But they’re not like- No one’s being like, “Oh, you’re into- I’m into feet. You’re into feet? Cool. Here’s 10 bucks and let’s do good sex.” I don’t know. I don’t understand that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. I will have to ask these people.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

So the part of the fetish- I’m just thinking, my feet are hideous right now. I would die if someone wanted to look at my feet, even.

KYLE GETZ

Something that people have said about just body type or attractiveness, is people say, especially if someone thinks they are not attractive- Well, you are not your type if you don’t think you’re attractive. Other people- You may be other people’s type. That could be the same thing for feet.

MA JOHNSON

True!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Maybe your feet are not your type.

MA JOHNSON

That’s right.

KYLE GETZ

Maybe your feet are perfect for someone else.

MA JOHNSON

I’m thinking bunion city is where somebody wants to go, all day.

KYLE GETZ

You want to camp out in bunion city? I got a tent for ya. [Mike laughs]

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. Oh yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I will wrap this segment up, of talking about the, like, where we’ve arrived with research and all of that. And, a lot of fetishes have not been studied because they’re not problems. And, so, if it’s fine and not hurting anybody, and everybody’s just having fun, then there’s not a lot of reason to go into it and figure it out. Now, this is an extreme example, but somebody was trying to articulate, like, what does it take for it to be studied? And this paper, it’s called “Sexuality in the 21st century: Leather or rubber? Fetishism explained”. But I loved this paragraph in the abstract; “Fetishism, although not so rare, is often not seen in clinical conditions,” just like we were saying, like, people don’t get treatment for it if it’s fine, “On such occasions, patients are referred to clinics as a referral from the courts consequent to criminal or illegal activity. Cases who are sexually turned on by inanimate objects may fall foul of the law in a number of ways.”

MA JOHNSON

What!?

MIKE JOHNSON

“In the UK, in early October 2015, a man was arrested for having had sex with 450 tractors. According to the news report, he was found to have over 5000 tractor images on his laptop. He had a special desire for John Deere and Massey Ferguson tractors, particularly the green ones. He was into axle grease, which apparently turned him on sexually. He was placed on the Sexual Offenders’ Register.” That is how they then got to study his particular fetish, and-

MA JOHNSON

That’s bullshit!

MIKE JOHNSON

What? What part?

MA JOHNSON

That’s all bullshit. All of it!

MIKE JOHNSON

You don’t think a man fucked tractor?

MA JOHNSON

Did he hurt- Did he hurt a tractor? Did he ever hurt a tractor?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I was thinking that. Like-

MA JOHNSON

Did he tarnish the- Did he like… the paint?

KYLE GETZ

Maybe it was like someone else’s tractor, you know?

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, well…

MIKE JOHNSON

I- I think that that’s a great question. The Daily Star headline in the UK was “Perv who romped with 450 TRACTORS caught with 5,000 racy pics of farming vehicles”. I don’t know- But-

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. It could have been the farmers calendar for the, you know.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, they do the firemen, or bodybuilders, or the whatever. He could’ve maybe just thought he would- like, was doing a calendar shoot.

KYLE GETZ

There’s something there that I think, when people talk about there needs to be some kind of issue, they tend to- clearly criminal activity, whether we agree with the underlying cause, is one of those, or when it causes physical harm I think is what people prioritize, which I think diminishes the mental harm that being judged for- A value in studying foot fetish, or fetishes, is to normalize it and say, “Hey, did you know actually a shit ton of people are into feet? You’re not weird. You’re fine.” I think there’s a big mental value to reminding people that you’re just like everyone else, and you’re fine, and whatever. I just think that approach to disorders-

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, but if it’s normal it’s not kinky anymore, so it’s not exciting, right?

KYLE GETZ

Mmm, that’s true. The paradox of kink acceptance.

MIKE JOHNSON

Also…

MA JOHNSON

Dun dun dun.

MIKE JOHNSON

…this is amazing to me.

KYLE GETZ

Uh-huh?

MIKE JOHNSON

I got that from… it’s a medical journal on PubMed. It’s, uh, the National Library of Medicine, National Center for Biotechnology Information, and they then linked to a article that says that Mom is right; the whole thing was bullshit. It never happened, [Kyle gasps] and yet it made it into this journal.

KYLE GETZ

Wowww.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, yeah, cite your sources, everybody. Check your sources. A man did not fuck those tractors.

MA JOHNSON

He was into horses, not tractors! [Kyle laughs] We know about that guy.

MIKE JOHNSON

But talking about kink shaming, that’s-

KYLE GETZ

That adds fuel to the-

MIKE JOHNSON

But that also is, like, why that story spreads like wildfire, right? Like, why it reaches critical mass where it ends up in an academic journal, because some part of us wants to kink shame him, right? And, anyway, I’m fascinated by the fact that that was-

MA JOHNSON

And we like the red tractors as much as we like the green tractors.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, that seems unfair.

MA JOHNSON

That’s horrible.

KYLE GETZ

That’s horrible. That’s offensive. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway, talk to me about some gayta, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I have some gayta, and I’m gonna talk to you about it. So, there was a 2018 study called “Tell Me What You Want”, by-

MIKE JOHNSON

What you really, really want?

MA JOHNSON

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm, by Sposh Spice.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ll tell you what I want.

KYLE GETZ

Um, and doctor- It was by Dr. Justin Lehmiller, and… Dr. Justin Lehmiller interviewed 4175 people about various fetishes, and here is the data on foot fetishes: 14% of people had a fantasy about feet.

MIKE JOHNSON

14%? Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright.

KYLE GETZ

And 5% have a foot fetish. So the level- You know, that’s a higher level of bar than just a fantasy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, and-

MIKE JOHNSON

I-

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON

Which is interesting. I dunno.

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, what’s- what’s a fetish, but a fantasy that’s not turned into a hobby? [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MA JOHNSON

And how many podiatrists and pedi and mani people are in that?

KYLE GETZ

I wonder. That-

MA JOHNSON

You know?

KYLE GETZ

That would be almost a dangerous career path if you’re super into that, because you just be like “Ohh, look at this piggies… [makes pig sounds]” [Ma and Mike laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

I want to- I want to fix ‘em! [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

I want to polish them!

KYLE GETZ

“Fetish” has a- I thought you were gonna- “Fetish” has an increased definition for it to be a fetish. It has to be kind of- I don’t- I guess I don’t need to guess. Like, a fantasy is not- Just having a fantasy about a thing does not make it a fetish. A fetish, I think, is more intense, or specific, or something.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And, we do have the breakdown by gender and orientation.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Great.

KYLE GETZ

So, take a guess, men versus women. Sorry, nonbinary people, no one studies you, I can’t do about that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Dudes.

MA JOHNSON

Dudes.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [chuckles] Yeah, okay.

MA JOHNSON

Totally.

KYLE GETZ

Correct! [Mike and Kyle laugh] Uh, and queer versus non-queer, who has more foot fetish?

MA JOHNSON

Non.

MIKE JOHNSON

Gays.

KYLE GETZ

Non, and gays. Uh, Mike is correct.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s the queers that- Uh, so, 21%.

MIKE JOHNSON

How much of that is the phenomenon we’ve talked about a whole bunch of times, of like, when you’re gay you already have permission to do stuff that’s outside of mainstream, acceptable sex?

KYLE GETZ

I was thinking- Yes. Another thing I was thinking, that I think applies to this – anytime we talked about that scenario – is you’ve also had to do some self-exploration. And so, I think there’s something there as well, is “I’ve reflected on myself, my wants, needs, desires, who I am,” and I think being queer is one of the paths that, unfortunately, you sometimes are forced to do, but I think that could be another thing that helps you understand yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m with you.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, 21- Going from highest to lowest, 21% of gay and bisexual men have ever had a foot fantasy, versus 18% – so, three percentage points lower – of straight men.

MIKE JOHNSON

Is that what the Mariah Carey song is about?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I think so.

KYLE GETZ

Yep. Yep. [singing] Just a foot, foot fantasy baby.

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you for singing, because I can’t.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, no problem.

MA JOHNSON

[singing] All I really want for Christmas- [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

[singing] Is your little toes on my dick.

MA JOHNSON

[singing] is your big foot in me. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Big foot in me… Big foot me! Um, and then compared to- For women, 11% of lesbian and bisexual women. So, the difference between gay and straight men is three percentage points.

MIKE JOHNSON

About four beers. [all laugh]

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But then it drops down significantly to 11% of lesbian and bisexual women have had a foot fantasy, and then 5% – so less than half – of heterosexual women. So it is just far less away- a heterosexual woman thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Wow. You- No argument from you?

MA JOHNSON

Well, unless you tie me up. [all laugh] Then I’ll love whatever you want me to.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MA JOHNSON

Oh yeah, Daddy. Love those toes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God. Okay, we’re done with this segment now. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Let’s keep exploring this. Uh, that’s the gayta!

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Do we want to do Ma Johnson’s segment?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Do we?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We- I definitely do.

MA JOHNSON

Doo-da doo-wa. Or do we want to take a break? Because I need a drink. [Ma and Mike laugh]

KYLE GETZ

We can take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Well…

KYLE GETZ

Unofficial.

MIKE JOHNSON

An unofficial break?

KYLE GETZ

It’s just gonna be a quiet…

[Silent audio cut]

KYLE GETZ

Ma Johnson, what do you have for us?

MA JOHNSON

Well, I- It was a big, busy day flying over here. Boy, my arms are tired.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm, mhm.

MA JOHNSON

Um, and Michael picked me up at the gate 16 or whatever, and we went- we couldn’t go to Biscuit Bitch, because they were- too much of a line. But we did go to a fabulous restaurant, and the soup of the day was Red Bull and vodka. [Kyle laughs] So yeah. Where did we go, Tito’s?

MIKE JOHNSON

Poquitos. We went to Poquitos.

MA JOHNSON

Poquitos.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Tito’s just the vodka.

MA JOHNSON

Like, little- Little TT’s. Little Poquito TT’s. Um, anyway, so when I got my, you know, unpacking, etc., etc., figured out, I looked up slang words for feet.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MA JOHNSON

In alphabetical order.

KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, sure.

MA JOHNSON

Okay, here’s a good one: “dog meat”.

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON

“Dog meat”?

MA JOHNSON

“Dog’s meat”, yes.

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON

‘Cause the dog is all the way down there, and it-

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhhh, and it’s lickin’ meat!

MA JOHNSON

“My dogs are barkin’!”

KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON

Ohhh.

KYLE GETZ

I was thinking my dog licks my feet.

MIKE JOHNSON

I was thinking your dog licks your feet.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

And then neighbor, and then you take ‘em both out for- to poop. Um, yeah, it’s like the old rhyming slang in rural America that refers to feet, “My dog’s meat are achin’ so bad, I need more comfortable shoes.” Yeah, “My dogs are barking,” that’s kind of a one.

KYLE GETZ

I heard that one, not the other one.

MA JOHNSON

That’s from Cheers.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MA JOHNSON

“Foot bottom”, ooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

MA JOHNSON

I didn’t know that was in there.

MIKE JOHNSON

That was- That was Kyle just last week!

KYLE GETZ

A foot bottom?! Yeah, I guess- I guess-

MA JOHNSON

Jamaica, mon! Oh, a Jamaican slang for soles of the feet. “My mother deserves some spa treatment to help remove the calluses on her foot bottom,” and that’s bullshit. “Footgasm”, now that’s a good one. [Kyle laughs] Uh, my feet make a hole. “A sensation of extreme relief, relaxation, and bliss coming from a good foot rub or massage.” Yeah. “Important”-

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, are you into having your feet rubbed?

MA JOHNSON

You know, I- Ah… Mmm… I will- I will rub feet.

MIKE JOHNSON

Kyle, are you?

MA JOHNSON

I mean, I don’t have- But, here’s the thing, you have to have like a volunteer, or an agreeable counterpart right?

KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

But I do enjoy a pedicure, but not for that reason. But just because it’s part of it, I think “Oh, that’s really relaxing and nice,” but…

KYLE GETZ

I like my- I like foot rubs, but also I’m like- My feet, I think, are kind of weird looking, so I don’t know.

MA JOHNSON

What?

KYLE GETZ

That’s one of those self-conscious things that I might not do as much as…

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, well…

KYLE GETZ

Do you like your feet rubbed?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like- I also like a pedicure from time to time, but not because of the rubbing of the feet. I just like to get my Fritos shortened every now and then. [Kyle chuckles]

MA JOHNSON

That’s right.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, I like- I like- I don’t know. I don’t know that I’ve ever had, like-

MA JOHNSON

It’s kind of like a, just a person- just a human touch- human skin-to-skin kind of thing.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. You’ve never had someone rub your feet?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t think so.

MA JOHNSON

Oh yeah.

KYLE GETZ

You- Like, you’re on the couch and you put your feet up, and then you’re like, “Rub them.”

MA JOHNSON

Oh, they’re- It’s great.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, not really. No.

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, true.

MIKE JOHNSON

But I have gotten a massage before, but by the time they get to my feet I’m already asleep.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. I’m- Just, whatever next partner you have, just like, one time just be like, “I’ve never had this.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Great.

KYLE GETZ

“Do my feet.”

MA JOHNSON

And you could do it without protection. You could take your socks off, it’s fine. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

If you want to risk it.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, risk it. Okay, another one: “Hoof” or “hooves”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

And, you know, it’s pretty- pretty straightforward, basic. You’re a horse. Yeah. We’re gonna go to Hopalong Cassidy, which everybody here-

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] What?

MA JOHNSON

Hopalong Cassidy. Your way- You’re- Like, your grandparents don’t even remember this dude. It’s an old cowboy character, yada yada, but it’s-

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s not Butch Cassidy?

MA JOHNSON

No, no Sundancin’ here, buddy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Alright.

MA JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

I’ve never heard this.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, it’s very- Probably silent movies. I don’t know. So, somebody with an injured foot or leg, you know, is a hopalong.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MA JOHNSON

Like, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Got it.

MA JOHNSON

“Las”- Another Mexican one, I think. Kyle?

KYLE GETZ

“Las Patrullas”.

MA JOHNSON

“Patrullas”.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Las Patrullas”.

MA JOHNSON

Lots of Ls with- that are Ys really.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Spanish one.

MA JOHNSON

Um, literally translates to “Officers on the beat”, so they’re talking about Mexican slang for foot, feet legs, but it would be pertinent to, like, an officer on the beat sort of thing.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, like feet on the ground.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I like the idea of calling your toes cops, because you can just walk all over them.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] All toes are bastards.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] All toes are bastards.

MA JOHNSON

“Plates of meat”, Cockney.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh yeah.

MA JOHNSON

[in a Scottish accent] You fuck one goat. Um, rhyming slang for feet.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know if that is Cockney rhyming slang, but cockney rhyming slang is usually the first part of a phrase that rhymes with the thing that you’re actually talking about, so they would refer to their feet as “plates”, because “plates of meat”, “meat rhymes with “feet” so therefore feet are “plates”. Anyway, go ahead.

MA JOHNSON

It’s a bad day to be in Ireland and smoke crack. I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t- Correct me if I’m wrong, y’all that’s out there, but that’s what I know about Cockney rhyming slang.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, y’all. Here we go. Cock-ney. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Putting the “cock” in “Cockney”.

MA JOHNSON

Cock on the knee in the feet.

MIKE JOHNSON

If it’s down to your knee, call me. [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

[clears throat] Woo-oo! “Popcorn.”

MIKE JOHNSON

“Popcorn.”

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. “A gross reference to” – oh, good – to “thick calluses on the feet that look like popcorn.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Eugh, God.

KYLE GETZ

Wow, interesting.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, then we’re gonna go to “tootsies”. We know that one.

KYLE GETZ

Uh-huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

My favorite movie about a drag queen.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm, mhm, mhm.

MA JOHNSON

That’s right. “This slang is used to substitute toes and feet in a common setting.” And “uggies”.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Uggies”.

KYLE GETZ

“Uggies”? That’s mean.

MA JOHNSON

“Australian slang for something that keeps the feet warm,” so UGGs or very expensive boots, whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON

So you can say you have uggo uggies?

MA JOHNSON

Ah, ugly uggies!

KYLE GETZ

Ah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Uggos. Yeah. “Wrap-up”, “Hey! Congrats!” Oh, no, that’s the wrap-up.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

That’s all. So there you go. I don’t know how many that really was, but, um, there you go.

KYLE GETZ

Some of those I’ve never heard of.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, me neither.

MA JOHNSON

Me too.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s funny, because we have so many like- Like, how many words are there for dick? There’s like four fucking million of them. Or vaginas, for that matter?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But like-

KYLE GETZ

None of those were as common. Like, that’s not a-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, but feet. Like, I can’t think of, like, anything that you regularly-

MA JOHNSON

“My dogs”.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Dogs”, yeah. “My dogs are barking,” but like, that’s kind of it, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Huh.

KYLE GETZ

We care less about-

MA JOHNSON

Sapatas?

KYLE GETZ

Sapapas.

MA JOHNSON

“-patas.” Yeah. Alright. So let’s go on to the next segment of-

KYLE GETZ

That you, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I- I-

MA JOHNSON

Where’s my penis definition?

MIKE JOHNSON

We can do this really quickly.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, this- this isn’t- This isn’t gonna be a lengthy segment, but- Uh, reflexology is the idea that foot massage, or, alternatively, hand massage, can specifically help parts of your body in a mapping kind of way.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah! Yeah. I always was dubious, like, “Yeah, you press your palm in this one spot, and that’ll make it so your headache goes away,” or “That’ll manifest gloryholes,” or whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes. Yeah, that is- That is reflexology, yeah. So, it’s the idea that, like, every part of your body has a place on the bottom of your foot that corresponds to it, and that you can restore balance and solve problems in that other area by massaging that proxy area on the bottom of your foot, or, again, on the palm of your hand. It’s- There’s like- Apparently, reflexologist believe that there’s an energy field – or Qi – that is being blocked that can prevent healing, and so then that’s like, you gotta, like, get your Qi going. I don’t know. It’s just- The whole idea is really fascinating to me, because it’s been around for a really long time. It was brought to the United States in 1913 by William Fitzgerald, MD, and he showed that there were a bunch of, like, historical traditions that had elements of reflexology. But he- He’s one of the first came up with this idea that it could have an analgesic effect, or an anesthetic effect, that you could- they could get rid of a headache by squeezing right here or also on the bottom of your foot.

KYLE GETZ

This sounds like a chiropractor, is like, it could sound medical and like it’s real but it’s not actually. This is giving me those vibes, but maybe that’s just because I’m judgy.

MA JOHNSON

So it’s just like a sort of- a, um, acupuncture-ish sort of a-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Although, it amazes me that they fucking pay for acupuncture. Insurance pays for acupuncture.

MA JOHNSON

I love the poke. [chuckles] No.

MIKE JOHNSON

It should be said: there is no convincing scientific evidence-

KYLE GETZ

Okay, there-

MIKE JOHNSON

-that reflexology is effective for any medical care.

KYLE GETZ

There it is.

MA JOHNSON

There it is.

KYLE GETZ

Once you started talking about energy fields or whatever, I was like “Yeah, I think I might be out.”

MA JOHNSON

Quantum bullshit. [All laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But I was fascinated with the idea when I was a kid, and mom’s dad actually – Grandpa Bob – gave me a book on reflexology, and for a little period of time there there was a young Mike Johnson that was running around going like “Oh, my throat hurts, I’m gonna rub my” – you know – “sole,” or- I don’t- Anyway. Anyway, that’s reflexology it’s just the whole idea that, like, your feet are magic and you can fix your sinusitis by rubbing your big toe.

MA JOHNSON

That’s why we pick our nose… with our foot. [Kyle laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t think I could. Um, okay, so-

MA JOHNSON

Watch this! Hold my beer!

KYLE GETZ

I have a couple things I have not- There’s was a poem, I have some top sexual fantasy things, but I think what I’m gonna wrap- I’ll do those in Patreon.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

What I want to wrap it up with is foot tapping. [Ma gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON

Foot tapping. Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Is that like this? [taps]

KYLE GETZ

Or is that just, like, the phenom-

KYLE GETZ

Nope. It’s the- The phenomenon of what, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

Of, like, the moving- Jumping your leg up and down by tapping your foot?

KYLE GETZ

Nooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh! Oh, no, this is how Senator Larry Craig ended up getting kicked out of Congress.

MA JOHNSON

Ohhh, like, in the stalls.

KYLE GETZ

There it is.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Better memorize the shoe type when you see him outside the john. [Kyle laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

I, legit, sometimes will sit crooked on a public toilet because I don’t want them to even see my feet and think I’m tapping at them.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm. I will tell you the process, so that you don’t accidentally do this. It is not just, you put your foot there and it might be mistaken and now you’re in-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, is this like when you teach your dog when to bark so that it doesn’t bark at other times?

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

But you won’t- But also, you won’t- My dog sometimes barks at random things. You will not accidentally do this.

MA JOHNSON

Okay.

MA JOHNSON

Pavlov involved in this tapping?

KYLE GETZ

Well- Pavlov’s foot. [chuckles] That’s a weird fetish. Okay. Most of what I’m about to tell you was from an article on MEL Magazine by Jake Hall, and what we’re talking about is called “tapping”, for those that don’t know. There is a thing where, underneath bathroom stalls, you can tap your feet and do a specific thing to know- to signal to people that you want to, like, get down sexually with them.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

And part of the reason-

MIKE JOHNSON

In the stall?

KYLE GETZ

In the stall, through the stall, you know.

MIKE JOHNSON

I always assume that means, like, one of us is gonna put our dick under the thing into the other stall, but like, that’s it? Like a glory hole situation but very low to the ground?

KYLE GETZ

Yes. Yes, but the glory hole is a long stretch [Mike laughs] of open space at the bottom of the thing. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Or there’s also, you can present your ass.

MA JOHNSON

Or you can present your feet that make a hole.

KYLE GETZ

Or- Oh yeah, that’s a risk. Do like a little-

MIKE JOHNSON

Ohh.

KYLE GETZ

What?

MA JOHNSON

Mind blown.

KYLE GETZ

Yea, that you can, like, put your ass out?

MIKE JOHNSON

Dick blown. No, all of this.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, all of this.

MIKE JOHNSON

All of this.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, great-

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, first, the journey I went on-

KYLE GETZ

Uh-huh?

MIKE JOHNSON

-was first I was like, “Could I get my hole down there? I don’t know. Am I willing to try? Nope, maybe for science?” And then- And then- And then I was like- And then Mom said the thing that she said. I was like “Oh my god, take your socks or shoes off and put your foot vagina under the hole.” Like, that’s-

KYLE GETZ

Ohh. That’s a risk. That’s a “Boy, I hope you’re one of those 10% of people that are into this.”

MIKE JOHNSON

God, the poor custodian, like, just wants to clean the bathroom, and rolls in there like-

KYLE GETZ

I mean, “custodian” is what I call my tongue.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

MA JOHNSON

Mm.

KYLE GETZ

It’s gonna clean that shit up.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let us know if you’re into that, everybody.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Um… [Ma laughs] Okay, one of the reasons it originated is because gay sex was criminalized, so gay men specifically have to find other places to do this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

It- One of the-

MIKE JOHNSON

Just like life in Jurassic Park, gays will find a way.

KYLE GETZ

Gays always find a way, for sure. An early example: in 1964, LBJ’s a Walter Jenkins was arrested for soliciting sex in the men’s room of a Washington YMCA.

MIKE JOHNSON

Apparently LBJ had a giant penis and would show people all the time.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, in the White House.

KYLE GETZ

Putting the J in LBJ. Putting the BJ in LBJ? No, never mind. Come back to me.

MA JOHNSON

Marilyn.

MIKE JOHNSON

Derek, look that one up!

MA JOHNSON

Look it up!

MIKE JOHNSON

Am I making that up? Is there a different president?

MA JOHNSON

JF Fuck. K.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think it’s- I think it was LBJ.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Um, so, restroom hotspots are, in the UK, called “cottages”, in the US are called “tea rooms.”

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ve heard it called “cottaging” before, and like-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

-that just makes me think of cottage cheese, which I’m-

KYLE GETZ

I don’t love it.

MA JOHNSON

Fromunda. Fromunda, right? Like cottage cheese?

MIKE JOHNSON

Fromunda?

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Fromunda cheese? Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I don’t love that name. Okay, [Mike laughs] and here is the process.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Step one.

KYLE GETZ

Step one: gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Cut a hole in a box. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Um, you tend to pick the furthest stall from the door. Some people do this strategic; if it’s an airport they’ll put their bags down kind of in front of the door to block a little bit of the view from other people.

MIKE JOHNSON

A privacy curtain made of luggage, sure. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yep. Yep, yep. Uh- Us gays are nothing if not resourceful.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, you pull your pants and underwear all the way down around your ankles to the ground.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

And you-

MIKE JOHNSON

You don’t? [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

Everyday. Hello?

KYLE GETZ

Do you pull your pants all the way down?

MIKE JOHNSON

If I’m gonna shit.

KYLE GETZ

But like, I don’t put them all the way to the ground!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

You do!?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

Okay, that’s-

MA JOHNSON

Do I?

KYLE GETZ

You’re looking at me like I’m the weird one. You’re the weird one.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, weigh in, everybody. Like, I- Yes, I-

KYLE GETZ

Not all- You, like, pull them down enough, like to your legs, but you don’t put them around your ankles.

MIKE JOHNSON

All the way down. All the way down.

KYLE GETZ

Why? What do you need that much leg breathing room for?

MIKE JOHNSON

You don’t know my process, Kyle. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t- I didn’t want to, but here we are.

MA JOHNSON

It’s way better than he was little, walk into somebody’s house and just strip naked.

MIKE JOHNSON

Because my- my massive, giant cock and balls is in the way if I don’t have- if I can’t spread my knees apart far enough to make room for them.

KYLE GETZ

O- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And the only way to accomplish that is to put my trousers on the floor.

MA JOHNSON

Unless there’s a Squatty Potty. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Ma Johnson, when you go into a stall do you take your- do you put your pants all the way down around your ankles?

MA JOHNSON

Girls are way hell no different. No.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, so you say no. You- Yeah. Okay, Mike’s the weird one. Cool.

MA JOHNSON

Do you guys put the paper toilet liner-

MIKE JOHNSON

No, that’s the dumbest invention.

KYLE GETZ

Nooo.

MA JOHNSON

That’s bullshit, isn’t it?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I just, like, give it a little wipe usually.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, I know.

KYLE GETZ

We’re not talking about that, even though Mike’s weird and all.

MA JOHNSON

Don’t cover up your shoes with your pants and underpants, right?

KYLE GETZ

Well, you need- Your- You need your shoe or foot to be free, because the next step is put it a little bit over so the other person can see, and tap. You start slowly. The other person will tap, and they’ll- you’ll go-

MIKE JOHNSON

Tap once? Tap, like, SOS? Tap-

MA JOHNSON

Like [taps].

KYLE GETZ

Um. There is this theory that historians – gay historians – have not validated, or, in this article they were like “I asked three people, and these gay historians have never heard this, but, you know, some things are lost a time,” blah, blah, blah. But anyway, one theory was you tap 4-2-9, which spells “gay” if you’re hitting it on a phone pad.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nobody can count to nine in a public bathroom. [Kyle laughs]

MA JOHNSON

What? Morse code. No. No.

KYLE GETZ

If you’re in a public bathroom you can’t count to nine. That’s too much for you, you got poop on the brain. Um, so, then, after the-

MIKE JOHNSON

Must be poop on the brain.

KYLE GETZ

I was thinking that, and didn’t do it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, good. Yeah. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Uh, then you graze your feet.

MA JOHNSON

What’s a graze? What?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, rub them together like you’re a cricket? [Ma gasps and makes cricket sound]

KYLE GETZ

But like, I don’t think you go like [makes a rambunctious cricket sound]. I think you- Because all of this is- You gotta make it seem like it could be innocent. So you’re gonna graze first. You’re gonna pass it by.

MA JOHNSON

I wanna see you do a video of this one.

KYLE GETZ

I wanna see me do a video of this.

MA JOHNSON

I know, right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Rub your feet together, but make it sexy, but make it casual.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, not- Don’t rub your own feet together. You’re grazing their foot.

MIKE JOHNSON

See? I’m glad we clarified. I would have been, like, [laughing] rubbing my feet together like a weirdo.

KYLE GETZ

Mike, you’re just like- [Ma makes a cricket sound] Well, you can’t because your pants around your ankles. You don’t have the foot dexterity because you got rubber bands around your-

MIKE JOHNSON

Just to spite you, I’m gonna take everything off and hang them up on the hook. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know why I’m so angry- I don’t know why I’m so angry at this.

KYLE GETZ

Then you wave your hand under the stall.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

Some people, when they do this, will ensure their wedding ring is visible.

MA JOHNSON

Is there a white flag on that, like a toilet paper? Waving that shit?

KYLE GETZ

I surrender to our sexuality.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh God.

KYLE GETZ

Then- So, all of this is to- So, like, many of these steps-

MIKE JOHNSON

Why is that step necessary if you’ve gotten to the “we’re playing footsie”, isn’t, like, we’re already clear what’s happening?

KYLE GETZ

All of this is “Let me be sure that I know it’s happening, in a plausible deniability kind of way.” So, if I graze your foot, that could have been an accident.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, it could not have! But go ahead. Go ahead.

MA JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Yes. Yes it could! I could move my foot and it accidentally touches-

MA JOHNSON

You know what is not an accident?

KYLE GETZ

What?

MA JOHNSON

You kick into Adele. [singing] Hello, this is me. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

If you sing that from your stall you definitely want to get fucked. [all laugh]

MA JOHNSON

You’re definitely- Definitely.

KYLE GETZ

Um, so then you wave your hand, then you- This is where you present your dick or ass, or it said “The other option is then you wave your hand to say ‘No, you go first.’”

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. [chuckles] Do the “come here” gesture.

MA JOHNSON

Red Rover.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Red Rover.

KYLE GETZ

So, okay, that’s the process, and, like you said, one of the most notable times this happened Larry Craig, a Republican, in 2007 was-

MIKE JOHNSON

From Idaho? Is that where he was from? I think so. Anyway, go on.

MA JOHNSON

Probably ho-ing it, probably.

KYLE GETZ

I was gonna say, he is da ho, but in the bathroom. No judgement, hashtag-

MA JOHNSON

Could you like, present your mouth?

KYLE GETZ

Oh, that’s a good idea, but then I think you see your face, which, I think part of the goal is not to-

MA JOHNSON

Do you not have duct tape with you? That’s not a thing?

KYLE GETZ

Wait, where does the duct tape go?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes, he is from Idaho.

MA JOHNSON

Yes, he’s from Idaho.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, both of you, focus! We’re almost there! [Mike laughs] I have to scold both of you, including you, Mike!

MA JOHNSON

The blindfold. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Hot. Okay, Larry Craig and 40 others were arrested, a-rested, in a public restroom in the main terminal of the Minneapolis Saint Paul International Airport-

MIKE JOHNSON

Hold the phone.

KYLE GETZ

-in 27 [TN: 2007], from May to August.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hey, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

What’s up?

MIKE JOHNSON

40?

KYLE GETZ

40.

MIKE JOHNSON

Four zero?

KYLE GETZ

Her and four zero other people were arrested.

MIKE JOHNSON

In- At the same time?

KYLE GETZ

Uh, no, no, no, from May to August.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God, okay.

MA JOHNSON

Oohh.

KYLE GETZ

So like, they have these stings that seem to go over a period of time, not one day.

MIKE JOHNSON

I was just- [laughing] It was a 40-dude orgy at the C gates. [Ma laughing]

KYLE GETZ

That’s hot.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

I wish.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

We’re not talking about my fantasy, we’re talking about reality here, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, another recent example that I saw in the news- Oh, no, no, no. Something I wanted to mention…

MA JOHNSON

Mention.

KYLE GETZ

Caution, Mike Johnson.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes?

KYLE GETZ

Some of those 40 people arrested not for doing this whole, you know, toe-tappy- like, this whole thing. Oh, the reason he got caught is there are often, like, undercover police officers that know these codes, and some of them will get arrested just for doing these codes, which, none of what I described is-

MIKE JOHNSON

Illegal or should be.

KYLE GETZ

-should be. Should be legal, but they arrested anyway, and that’s part of the having plausible deniability and several steps to make sure. It’s like- Yeah, so he apparently got arrested-

MIKE JOHNSON

Counterpoint.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah?

MIKE JOHNSON

If I’m dropping a deuce and your foot touches my foot, I should legally be able to stab you.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, that- Okay, yeah, that’s true. The glory hole is just a stabbing hole. Like- [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MA JOHNSON

Un-counterpoint: Can’t you just wave one of your hanky code colors under there?

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooh.

KYLE GETZ

That’s a good idea.

MA JOHNSON

Woo! Ay-oh, drop your hanky. I dunno.

KYLE GETZ

And then you can pass along a little bit more info on what you want, other than just-

MA JOHNSON

That’s right.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. But some of these- Some of these 41 suspects were arrested because they responded to online posts by men looking to arrange a quick hookup as they pass through the airport.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

So- So I’m just saying, if you use Grindr in the airport-

MIKE JOHNSON

Hypothetically. [laughing]

KYLE GETZ

I’m- Hypothetically. I’m just saying, watch out. Just watch out!

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ve used Grindr sitting next to you at the airport, so, like-

KYLE GETZ

I know! Whenever we go somewhere new, I’m like “Oh, Mike’s on Grindr right now.”

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yes.

MA JOHNSON

Okay, what about Match?

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Match.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, I thought you said “Matt”, like my brother, Matthew. [laughs] Your other son.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah, what about Matt?

KYLE GETZ

Another example that they gave: in 2019, in DC in the Meridian Hill Park, there were 26 arrests in a one week period, so it’s-

MIKE JOHNSON

Good God.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, there are recent examples of gay men being arrested for this kind of behavior, which is, I don’t know, kind of weird to me. It’s like the tractor fucking, it’s like, how much harm is this really causing and what’s the priority? But anyway-

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yeah, unlike tractor fucking, this is really happening.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah. But-

KYLE GETZ

That’s true. This is real.

MA JOHNSON

Exactly, who- What? Like, you want to hook up, and then what is the problem?

KYLE GETZ

You are in a public space, so someone- Like, don’t involve other- Part of, you know, the whole, you know, kink scene, is-

MA JOHNSON

But you can sit at a bar and go, “Hey, you wanna fuck?” “Yeah, okay. Yeah,” and walk out.

KYLE GETZ

Mm. That’s my ideal.

MIKE JOHNSON

But you can’t then fuck at the bar, right?

MA JOHNSON

Oh, yes you can.

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, you can. Should you? Is that legal?

MA JOHNSON

In the bathroom. In the-

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s a good way to get kicked out of Applebee’s, but the- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, okay, when-

MA JOHNSON

Safeway, they hate it there!

KYLE GETZ

In How I Met Your Mother, when straight people do this – like, go to the bath- “We’re newlyweds, we will go to the bathroom and fuck.” – people celebrate it, they enjoy it, they think it’s hot, but if a gay dude does it, very different. I’m not saying either is okay, I’m just saying, part of this is not saying whether it is technically right or wrong, part of it is what is your judgment, and how is it different based on the orientation of the person we’re talking about?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

And I think-

MA JOHNSON

Right, right.

KYLE GETZ

Anyway, this is a part of gay culture. You will hear people talk about foot tapping, this is a thing, and I’m glad I’ve been able to illuminate it for all of you, and that I’m disgusted by Mike now.

MA JOHNSON

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Now? [Kyle laughs] It took this long? [Mike laughs]

MA JOHNSON

And Ma. And Ma!

KYLE GETZ

No, you’re still okay.

MA JOHNSON

Okay, good. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But we- There’s more to this episode, so we’ll see.

MA JOHNSON

There we go.

KYLE GETZ

Um, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Did we do it?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah… we actually talked-

MIKE JOHNSON

Mom, did we do it?

MA JOHNSON

My vagina’s- Yeah, I’m good. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

“I’ve checked in with my vagina. We’re both good.”

MA JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

Um, we talked about more than fetishes, which I’m surprised that we did, so, good for us!

MA JOHNSON

And feet, and feet long.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

And increments of inches, feet, boy inches, girl inches. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

So many things. I don’t love the phrase “boy inches”.

MIKE JOHNSON

I do. I’m here for that one.

MA JOHNSON

Because they go like this, they go, “How big was your fish?” [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t- Ohhh.

MA JOHNSON

Because there’s a girth and there’s a length.

KYLE GETZ

My goodness. Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

What?

KYLE GETZ

Help us out.

MIKE JOHNSON

What? Oh, should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, let’s take a break! [Ma and Mike laugh]

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break.

KYLE GETZ

You’re the only person that can get us out of this!

MA JOHNSON

[singing] Hello, it’s me. I’m on the other side of the bathroom stall. [Mike laughs] Rub my feet.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break, please, now. God.

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna do I Gayest & Straightest, but first, the Gayish Secret Santa is coming up. I believe they’ve landed on December 21st as the date for it?

KYLE GETZ

People- It’s too late. So, people have already signed up, we’re already- Make sure you remember to get your gifts and have- that they arrive in time.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly right. Yep. Uh, and, our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ

We have several communities across the Internet, most prominently Discord, Facebook group, and on Spaces. You can actually find more about our communities that you can join at- Fuck, I- Uh, I think it is gayishpodcast.com/contact.

MIKE JOHNSON

Good work.

MA JOHNSON

/HashBrownMa.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do you- Do you know our hotline, mom?

MA JOHNSON

Uh, 1-800-Give-Me-A-Blowjob. [chuckles] No, I don’t.

MIKE JOHNSON

5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ

Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON

And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.

MA JOHNSON

And my phone number is 1-800-Get-The-Fuck-Away. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Uhh, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nope, first the local gay bar review! We’re gonna do a local gay bar review.

MA JOHNSON

Doo-doo-do-do-do-doo.

MIKE JOHNSON

This time I’m gonna talk about the Round-Up Saloon in Dallas, Texas.

MA JOHNSON

Yeehaw!

MIKE JOHNSON

It is massive, that place is fucking gigantic. There’s a huge-ass dance floor and there’s a huge-ass upstairs.

MA JOHNSON

It’s not gay though.

MIKE JOHNSON

It is gayyy…

MA JOHNSON

Gayish?

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s gayyy.

MA JOHNSON

Oh, right on. Cool. [Kyle chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

It was gay when I was there, anyway!

MA JOHNSON

Nice.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, there’s dancing, there’s a pool hall, there’s an outdoors bar, there’s an upstairs hanging out place. This place is- It’s just- It’s gigantic. I went again with Dallas Check and Joe N Dallas when I was there.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, hey buds.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, um, there is a picture this time! I always forget to take pictures at the local gay bar review gay bars, but I definitely have a picture from this one.

KYLE GETZ

Nice.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, and, on top of being amazing and I loved it, a dude yelled at me across the upstairs decking, “You’re really handsome!”

KYLE GETZ

Aww! [Ma gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON

Four and a half dildos. [laughs]

MA JOHNSON

Ohh, of course!

KYLE GETZ

God, I’m just- The- What’s a bar gotta do, you know?

MA JOHNSON

Gotta hook up with Michael.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I gotta- Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

You gotta get- You gotta do foot stuff in the bathroom for it to get five out of five.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly. But the bar also has to be good. Like, I got- So I got- I got laid in Argentina, but the bar wasn’t up to par.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

It needs to be a bar that’s up to par, and a going home moment.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, one alone does not cut it. Yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anyway, that’s- That’s that, so now we can do our Gayest & Straightest if you want to.

KYLE GETZ

Awesome, yeah, I’ll go first.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

Um, my gayest is going to gay trivia.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Quiz Daddy Chris does-

MIKE JOHNSON

You love it.

KYLE GETZ

Me?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I went and was reminded on why I don’t go. I don’t like trivia, I’m not good at it, I feel uncomfortable. So- But Quiz Daddy Chris does a great job running trivia, so that part’s fine. It’s me, I’m the problem. #TaylorSwift.

MIKE JOHNSON

Chris- Chris Haigy from the We Read Movies podcast.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Tuesdays at Madison Pub in Seattle, go.

KYLE GETZ

In Seattle, Washington.

MA JOHNSON

What’s today? I only eat on Sunday.

KYLE GETZ

It’s Tuesday.

MA JOHNSON

Oh, okay,

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Um, my straightest is: boy, I fell flat on my ass when I was walking over here.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh. [Ma gasps]

KYLE GETZ

And- Because it’s raining and there was like a metal grate that I just decided to walk over. And you know those- when people are like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Were you wearing that black puffy coat?

KYLE GETZ

Uh, no.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, okay.

MA JOHNSON

Skirt-

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank God, because thing is like a toboggan. You would just, like- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I’d just slide down the hill? I’d get here faster.

MA JOHNSON

Tripped on your skirt? No?

KYLE GETZ

I was wearing some pants-

MA JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

-so the situation set itself up to be not too bad. But like, you know, falling on your ass is the great equalizer. Everyone; gay, straight, dumb, smart, everyone can do it. I just felt like a regular human then.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

What about you, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, yeah, okay, so the gayest thing about me this week: I went to brunch with my mom, and, you know, but especially throughout that process, just walking around Capitol Hill with her, and my joy at all of the gay shit. Fuckin’ rainbow crosswalks, and, like, a whole thrift shop that’s gay themed, and like, dude was wearing a pup mask just walking down the street [Kyle laughs] at like 11:30 this morning. It was- It was magical, and it felt super gay, and it was great. It made me happy to live in a city that has all that.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, that’s my neighborhood.

MIKE JOHNSON

And then, the straightest thing about me this week, which mom reminded me: the Jeep is disgusting. I’ve literally never cleaned it, and you can tell because there’s Boomer dog hair all over it.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

I have not had him for like three or four years now, so, like, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

He may have died in there, actually. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

You add up all the hair, you might get a new Boomer.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, God, oh. #Goals.

KYLE GETZ

#NewBoomer?

MA JOHNSON

Hashbrown- Hashbrown CleanIt.

KYLE GETZ

Hashbrown CleanIt.

MA JOHNSON

One of those little, uh, air freshener little trees would not cut that. [Kyle chuckles] Okay, so my straightest is that I have a low- So, my car was going “Hey, flat tire, low tire,” whatever. So I have this little gauge, went around, checked all the tires.

MIKE JOHNSON

[emphasizing the “ge”] “Gauge”. “Gauge”.

MA JOHNSON

“Gauge”?

MIKE JOHNSON

I heard “gay”.

MA JOHNSON

What I’d say, “gay”? Oh-

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I heard “gauge”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great.

MA JOHNSON

I’m in this room, it’s just like, nyeh. Um, unscrewed the little doodads, did my tire pressure thing, da-da, yaddy-yaddy.

KYLE GETZ

You fix your car?

MA JOHNSON

Frequently- Well, ish. I drove it to Les Schwab, and they said I had a leaking bead.

KYLE GETZ

Seems pretty rude.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Get antibiotics for that.

MA JOHNSON

I know, right? Well, that’s a whole ‘nother segment. [Mike chuckles] And my gayest is: I went to brunch with my son, Michael Johnson, at-

MIKE JOHNSON

Poquitos.

MA JOHNSON

-Poquitos. Poquitos. And there were three gaggles of gays-

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I bet.

MA JOHNSON

-and a gag. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Just one.

KYLE GETZ

Just one. Unfortunate.

MA JOHNSON

A ga. Guh. Ga. [Mike laughs] So, there you go.

KYLE GETZ

There you go!

MIKE JOHNSON

There you go.

KYLE GETZ

There you go, feet people, you’ve lost many times and this time you won, and-

MIKE JOHNSON

I hope it was worth it.

KYLE GETZ

-I hope it was worth it. [Mike laughs]

MA JOHNSON

My bunions thank you. [Kyle chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

You know, I- Thank you to all of the foot fetishists out there that just, like, hung in there with us, and they never lost hope, and they continued to lobby even despite the jaws of defeat.

MA JOHNSON

That’s right.

KYLE GETZ

Yep, they’re a resilient community that rely on each other for support, and love, and foot-cceptance.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

MA JOHNSON

Plus they’re, you know, helping out the pedicure community.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

They put so much money back in the community.

MA JOHNSON

There we go. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, also, thank you to the following foot fetishists: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, – Oh, hey! – Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Thomas B, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you all.

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you all. That’s it. This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.

MIKE JOHNSON

See you next week.

KYLE GETZ

See y’all.

MA JOHNSON

Byeee. Love you, mean it!

MIKE JOHNSON

Love you, mean it.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

MIKE JOHNSON

You know what else has feet?

KYLE GETZ

Uh, what?

MIKE JOHNSON

Derek’s wieners.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, um- So- So-

KYLE GETZ

No. No, no, no, they have legs. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

With feet on the end of them!

KYLE GETZ

That wiener has legs. [Mike and Kyle laugh]

MA JOHNSON

Wait a minute. Wait a minute, is this back to the metric system and other system? The feet, foot, inch system and the- What are they, meters? Millimeters?

KYLE GETZ

You’re measuring in feet.

MA JOHNSON

Feet.

KYLE GETZ

5855-Gayish?

MA JOHNSON

[in a high pitched voice] Never mind! [Mike laughs]

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com

Gayish: 310 Qatar

As the FIFA World Cup 2022 continues, claims of homophobia are dismissed and deprioritized. Are the criticisms justified, or do we need to simply respect the culture of Qatar?

In this episode: News- 4:38 || Main Topic (Qatar)- 22:58 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:21:52

Donate to Dr. Nasser Mohamed’s non-profit to advance LGBT rights in the Middle East (with a focus on the Gulf region) at www.alwanfoundation.org.
On the bonus Patreon segment, we discuss brand ambassador to the World Cup 2022, known hot guy, and former(?) gay icon icon David Beckham. Get weekly and monthly bonus content by joining Patreon for $5/mo at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ

The podcast that wonders if, when Bernie Sanders orgasms, does he jizz universal basic sincum.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Spelled “cum”?

KYLE GETZ

Yes, yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Sincum”

KYLE GETZ

That’s what I call my jizz, is “sincum.” [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. [chuckles] I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

Jesus made me do it. Um, I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and today…

KYLE GETZ

Today you sound wonderful, Mike!

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, thank you. So first, I apologize for last week, everybody. Believe it or not, what you’re hearing right now is a dramatic improvement. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I’ve been paying close attention to your progress based on the voice texts that you’ve been sending, and yeah, you sound great! Comparatively.

MIKE JOHNSON

Comparatively, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s been- It’s been a lot, I almost died. Not really, but everything-

KYLE GETZ

But that sounds more dramatic?

MIKE JOHNSON

Everything’s better if it sounds more dramatic. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

You’re gay. It’s dramatic. We so rarely in our lives take a week off, it’s something we pride ourselves on actually.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, we- And so that might have been, like, I don’t know, the fourth time or I- it’s- it’s been a handful of times that we’ve taken a week off, so.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Which, maybe we should do more often.

KYLE GETZ

Maybe!

MIKE JOHNSON

Nah.

KYLE GETZ

No. [Mike laughs] I don’t know. I like that. I like being able to brag about that. You know all the big podcasts are like, [in a mocking tone] “Well, we’re taking a week off because, you know, my child died,” or whatever thing, and you’re like, “Come on!” Like, nut up!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Well, and we- We decided early on not to do seasons, because that’s stupid.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, our season is season one! It’s all of it!

MIKE JOHNSON

Forever! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

All of it forever. Yeah. So, anyway, sorry about last week. Blame Mike, um-

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s all my fault.

KYLE GETZ

-and not me.

MIKE JOHNSON

100% my fault. Hold Kyle blameless, everyone.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, but just hold me. [Mike laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Umm…

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re gonna talk about Qatar!

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna talk about FIFA and that country you said.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep!

KYLE GETZ

Which I- Boy, I even- even though I looked up how to pronounce it, people were saying, like, the Americanized pronunciation, they were like, “It’s not ‘Qatar’ [TN: Like the “cu” in “cut” + “tar”], it’s called ‘Qatar’,” [TN: like “caw” + “tar”] but it’s- like, there’s even more to it that you’re doing better than I. I’m not going to attempt to the “Qatar”. [TN: Pronounced with a glottal fricative] Like, that’s not just your throat, that’s how you’re supposed to pronounce it.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] I’m so good at Arabic right now, with my, like, my voice being really nasally.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, it was planned. Yes. Uh, you should have been seeing a bunch in the news about FIFA and Qatar, so we’ll talk more about that in mere moment.

MIKE JOHNSON

In mere moments. But first!

KYLE GETZ

But first.

MIKE JOHNSON

There is 100 words in our email, but there’s a special request in that email for me to do a dramatic reading, and I want my voice to be better for that. So, just hang on one more week, Tim.

KYLE GETZ

Yes!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’ll get there.

KYLE GETZ

Yes! And if you want to send in 100 words to get in the queue then you have to have the $15-level Patreon, and then send them over whenever you want.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep! Uhh, feedback and corrections. Real quick, a couple of small corrections.

KYLE GETZ

Uh-oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nope, one small correction.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, it was widely reported that it was a drag queen that had stepped on the head of the shooter at Club Q during the shooting. There’s now mixed reporting that there was possibly a trans person that did that, and that calling them a drag queen was incorrect. I tend to believe that reporting, so, um, yeah. Anyway, just, like, it was unintentional but that person wasn’t a drag queen, probably.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. And it’s- it’s so interesting these days how a tweet then is like, everyone starts retweeting it, and then you’re like… journalism, like, did anyone verify this tweet?

MIKE JOHNSON

Right.

KYLE GETZ

What- If this tweet is to be believed, which I have no reason not to – but I also, you know – then it was just… they said it really well. They seem to either have been there or know this person, and just say, like, “Wasn’t a drag queen, was a trans woman. And I don’t think the person that said it was a drag queen knew that, so now that we know let’s correct it,” which is a very straightforward and fair way to be like, “That’s wrong. Now we know. Now let’s fix it,” and I love that approach.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, me too. Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. And then, uh, just a couple of updates to ongoing news stories. Singapore did actually finally overturn their anti-sodomy law. It had been proposed to be overturned months and months ago, and we reported on it, and like- but it’s actually happened now.

KYLE GETZ

[quietly] Are we in the new segment yet?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Did I already play the news theme song?

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, fine. Here’s the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

KYLE GETZ

We don’t have to have been in-

MIKE JOHNSON

Fuckin’ lay off, Kyle, I’m sick! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t- I just don’t know- I just need an empty space where the news theme song goes.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s our editors problem.

KYLE GETZ

That’s true, that’s true. That asshole.

MIKE JOHNSON

Fuck that guy. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, a couple of updates to ongoing news stories. [Kyle laughs] Singapore has finally, actually, overturned their anti-sodomy laws, so-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my God, I’m engaged now because I know we’re in the news section! It’s really, like, [Mike chuckles] you know. I’m just excited about the news

MIKE JOHNSON

I can tell you- You really turned it up. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Now I know where we are and what I’m doing, for once in my life.

MIKE JOHNSON

People don’t realize that during the news theme song you do a line of coke, and that’s why- [Kyle laughs] that’s how we get through it.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, just like Dan Rather used to, back in the 60s.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep. That’s-

KYLE GETZ

Did all of that makes sense?

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s why they called him Old Snow-stache. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

I thought that was Santa. Santa does a line of coke, that’s how he stays up and goes around the world.

MIKE JOHNSON

God help us, Kyle. Are we gonna get through this episode?

KYLE GETZ

Do more coke.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, and the other ongoing story that I just have to report on: I said that, as soon as the CDC figured out what they wanted to rename monkeypox to, I would let you all know what they decided to rename it to.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

The big winner: mpox.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Fuckin’ stupid.

KYLE GETZ

They’re what-

MIKE JOHNSON

Fuckin’ stupid!

KYLE GETZ

We were going “MPX” for a while. Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

I just- It took you months to come up with that, and it’s not even that good? Which, I think we knew we were gonna be dis- I knew I was gonna be disappointed, I think I even said so at the time.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mpox?

KYLE GETZ

I mean-

MIKE JOHNSON

Nobody knows what the M stands for, Kyle, it can’t be racist anymore. Like-

KYLE GETZ

Naming a disease has to be one of the worst jobs ever. That is a thankless job no matter what you call- Like, what person is going into- Like, “I’m in charge for the branding of monkeypox!” like, “That’s my job!”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Sorry, “Mpox”. Call it that.

MIKE JOHNSON

You just- [laughing] You just deadnamed mpox.

KYLE GETZ

Fuck, you’re right.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Don’t deadname people, everybody.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, news the first!

KYLE GETZ

News the first.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright-

KYLE GETZ

Oh, God. [laughs] And we play the news theme song again.

[News segment intro plays again, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

[Kyle laughs] [chuckling] You can do whatever you want to, as many times as you want to.

KYLE GETZ

You’re sick, this is Kyle’s show. You’re just a witness to this show. [laughs] If your voice stops working in the middle of this you’re gonna have to type down what you want to say and I’m gonna have to read your side of the conversation.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Well, last week’s plan was for me to type it in for Derek to say it, and he can’t talk either. Not because we made out, but just ‘cause-

KYLE GETZ

‘Cause you sucked his dick.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, exactly. Uhhh, okay, news the first!

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Coming soon to the news: the lawsuit of Gayish Media Incorporated by our production assistant.

MIKE JOHNSON

He knew what he was signing up for. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

That is very true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay!

KYLE GETZ

I can’t look at his video.

MIKE JOHNSON

I can’t either.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] Just pretend like he’s fine with it.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] What the hell are they calling this thing?

KYLE GETZ

Derek.

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Oh. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

No, no, no, no, no, no.

KYLE GETZ

Mpox?

MIKE JOHNSON

The Senate- In the United States, the Senate has passed marriage equality protections that are meant to protect our right to marriage equality in the United States, in the case that the Supreme Court overturns the Obergefee vel hod- Obergefell v. Hodges decision.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

I know.

KYLE GETZ

You did worse than I did sometimes. [both laughing]

MIKE JOHNSON

I know, “Mbergemell”.

KYLE GETZ

“Mbergemell shnee. Shnodges”. Yeah yeah, I remember that one.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um… It’s interesting because Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin, who is a mo herself – [Kyle laughs] well, at least part of the LGBTQ diaspora – had a lot to do with it getting through. It passed, 61 to 36, so that means 36 Republicans now are on record as saying that they still don’t like gay shit.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Not surprised. I kind of figured it would be more-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-that would be against us.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, so many say vocally that they- not vocally, they say out loud with their words, “No, I’m fine with it,” and then when you go and look at the records, look at what’s written in their fucking republican constitution or whatever, it says “I don’t support it.” So you can’t- It’s just- You- You are- Again, you’re- I mean, we need to keep voting on LGBT rights, because we need to keep updating the records and know how they currently think, because a lot of people can just be like [doing a mocking voice] “Oh, no, that was- That was how I felt last week! I’ve totally changed!” you know? [Mike chuckles] Like, so, I’d rather get that- get that shit down, because they hate gay people. I don’t care. It’s written, it’s there, the proof is there, and it’s just- I don’t know. Sorry, it’s the truth.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, and the part- One part that people don’t hear- One thing I didn’t hear this week, a lot, is that if you can pass, by a simple majority, these protections, they can also be removed that quickly, right? Like, the Republicans can and will, at some point, take back power, and can totally undo this, unlike constitutional rights that are enshrined in the Constitution as interpreted by our judicial system.

KYLE GETZ

Right.

MIKE JOHNSON

This- It is still tenuous, but it’s better than nothing.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

At least now, if Obergefell v. Hodges gets turned over and it gets remanded back to the states to decide, there’s a federal protection in place, for God knows how long, but.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah yeah. I mean, everyone- Like, you want everyone – in whatever their sphere is – to do what they can, and so, you know, they have done this. Like, they have at least done this thing, and that’s within their sphere of influence that they can do. They can’t control the courts. They can encourage, or oversight, or whatever they do for the courts, but this is what they could do and they did it, so I’m appreciative of that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Uh, the bill repeals the 1996 Defensive of Marriage Act, and establishes in federal law that same-sex marriages in one state must be recognized by another. So, that basically opens the door to federal protections, even though the state of Texas for instance is unlikely to be pro-same-sex marriage in a post-Obergefell world, those people could still travel to relatively nearby Colorado, get married there, and then Texas would be forced to recognize their Colorado marriage even though they’re Texas residents.

KYLE GETZ

It’s like planning for, in the case like abortion, where, okay, went back to the states and now the states get to decide. Well it’s like, okay, if it does go back to the states, you still have to recognize the states that say it’s legal?

MIKE JOHNSON

Correct. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Cool.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep, yep. Which is still a problem, right? There are people who might not be able to afford to leave their backward-ass stupid state to get married. There’s still potential problems, but, again, better than nothing. We have a lot to be thankful for.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. But I- I saw a very quick action on marriage equality, and I feel like – I don’t know if it’s even a fair comparison – I don’t feel like I’ve seen the same urgency around trans rights or legislation to support trans people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And I think what- where that’s coming from, and I don’t know if that’s fair, I don’t know if we would have the same votes that we did for a bill like this, I just- One of the criticisms is, in the LGBTQ+ community, we often go for the benefits that focus on cis gay men. Like, that tends to be- And lesbians, you know. But that’s- those are the communities, less so than the people of color in our community, the trans people in our community, the disabled people in our community. Like, you add kind of some of those additional lenses, and marriage equality is both important and also there’s all of these other life-and-death things that I just don’t know that I see the same level of action, or, to me it just doesn’t feel like that, as an individual.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, you’re super right, but so much of that has to do with popularity as well, right? Like, ultimately, people are trying to get reelected, and they can’t piss off the people that vote for them. So, you know, support for marriage equality nationwide is somewhere in the, like, 70% range. It’s a very popular stance. Now, it wasn’t, 10, 15, 20 years ago, but yeah, it is now. Support for trans people, like the right to use the bathroom that they want to, is like 50% or less. The right to play in the sport of their chosen gender – their gender – is like 30 or 25%. It’s unpopular to support trans people, and that’s why they’re not getting the protections that they need, and that fucking sucks.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I hope- I hope we can get there, someday. So much of it, I think, is just visibility, exposure, education, and advocacy, but there’s a long ways to go and I also think that there’s a rebound effect, right? Like we’re panicking because everybody sort of thought Obergefell passed and we were good forever.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

We thought the same thing about fuckin’ abortion rights.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, it’d been the law of the land for 50-ass years, and that’s the upside down, fucked up, bullshit, Goddamn world we live in now. Fuck, Kyle, I’m too- I’m too sick to be this mad! [both laugh] I’m gonna drink this drink.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

You should too. I made you a drink.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do you hate it as much as I’m sure you do?

KYLE GETZ

You’re coughing because your throat is, like, dying and you’re having like, health issues. I started coughing because you made me a whiskey drink that I don’t understand, and it was like- I don’t- maybe just whiskey or something. It was a lot, and that’s why I started coughing.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s whisking, and honey, and hot water, and is a boop of lemon. You know.

KYLE GETZ

It’s a- It’s a “boop” of everything else, [Mike laughs] and then all whiskey. It’s a lot whiskey.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s a lot whiskey. Hot whiskey.

KYLE GETZ

Hot whiskey, which is my new drag name.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, we have to- [laughs] We have to keep talking about other things.

MIKE JOHNSON

Umm…

KYLE GETZ

I want to- Maybe I can cut this later. I sometimes keep in mistakes we make.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Including mistakes we make around, like, trans people, trans issues. When you said “chosen gender” instead of “gender”, and then corrected yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We can talk later about what-

MIKE JOHNSON

No, keep it in. Absolutely keep it in. I think, you know, I believe that I have earned my chops as somebody who cares deeply about the trans community, and I fuck up too.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And I’m working on it, and I think demonstrating that is totally cool.

KYLE GETZ

I- And I don’t think we’ve, like, explicitly said that, and this is like- might be a good time to say that out loud. If we had a news podcast, or a reporting podcast, or a polished podcast that is the official final information, we would cut things like that, to be like, “This is how it’s presented,” if we’re an NPR-style podcast. But we’re not, we’re two people talking, so I like the idea of fucking up, correcting it, and continuing on, because that models the behavior I think a lot of people, including me, even to this day, sometimes worry about the wording of whatever issue it is. Trans issues, black issues, disability issues, I worry about saying the wrong thing, and- so I don’t say anything, and I’d rather say some- Every single person, every single group has said, like, “No, say something.” If you fuck up, that’s fine. And you probably will, and correct it and keep going. Like, you just have to start, and you have to talk about it. So, I like leaving that in, to show- to model that behavior, and that’s why it’s in there even after editing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, absolutely. I’m down.

KYLE GETZ

There it is.

MIKE JOHNSON

I also have no shame, so, like- [laughing]

KYLE GETZ

I know. I’m the one, like, sitting there at like 2 a.m., and I’m like, “Should I text him about this, or should I like, leave it? Does he care? He doesn’t care. Maybe he will though, about-” You know. Yeah. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, alright.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] News the second.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the second, finally.

KYLE GETZ

We’re got your voice. We’re putting it up to- This is- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I love this. So, British Airways has changed their strict guidelines for their flight attendants, to allow male flight attendants to wear piercings and makeup while on duty. So, they have non-gender-specific rules, so all rules apply equally to everybody regardless of gender. So, therefore, employees in uniform – again, regardless of gender – can wear mascara, false eyelashes, earrings, nail polish. There are some restrictions; staff are encouraged to use subtle shades for a natural look, and their nail polish cannot be black or neon. They are-

KYLE GETZ

That’s offensive to Goths.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, you know. You know.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] One step forward, one step to the left.

MIKE JOHNSON

We know that they’re all on United. [both laugh] They can also carry accessories, including handbags. They also are allowing man buns under their new hair grooming guidelines, which were previously prohibited. I just think it’s really great that British Airways is like “Yeah, this is dumb. Let’s fix it.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. It should be the same rules for every gender.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, and I just- I think it’s really, really cool. So, I hope to God that the next time I’m on a BA flight that I run into a nonbinary flight attendant with, just, like- just decked out in everything, and-

KYLE GETZ

Just uses all the rules at once.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, a skirt and a pocket watch, and, like, just, the whole thing,

KYLE GETZ

Like coat, and nails, and man bun, and- [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes.

KYLE GETZ

I guess it’s just a bun. I don’t-

MIKE JOHNSON

“Person bun”?

KYLE GETZ

“Person bun”?

MIKE JOHNSON

That doesn’t have the same ring, does it?

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, anyway, the guidelines came into effect just a couple of weeks ago, on my birthday.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, happy birthday.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

You’re still milking that. Man, that was a while ago.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, you know?

KYLE GETZ

That’s fine, you just found a way to mention it again.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well…

KYLE GETZ

Happy Birthday, Mike!

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you! [both laugh] Oh, noteworthy for this episode: they made a point of making those policy changes before their services in and out of Doha, the capital of Qatar.

KYLE GETZ

Oohh, fuck youuu.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, there were ostensibly some flight attendants who got to- Some male flight attendants got to wear their fake eyelashes and nail polish on flights servicing the World Cup, so.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, that’s fucking awesome.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the last. Actually, I think this is an update, but, DC Comics- Oh, wait, where’d Derek go? You’re gonna lose your shit, because I’m talking about comic book shit!

KYLE GETZ

[both laugh] Oh no, he’ll have to hear it on the episode when everyone else does.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, alright, alright. Alright. He’s dying, we’re all dying, everyone’s dying.

KYLE GETZ

He’s getting a Kleenex, I think because he just jizzed because he heard you talk about comics. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, DC Comics’ Batman and Robin. So, Tim Drake, also known as Robin, is, on the cover of an upcoming edition, going to be kissing his boyfriend.

KYLE GETZ

[singing] Show me love, show me life.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. His boyfriend is Bernard Dowd, and last year they started dating, and there was a whole coming out thing, and of course backlash from dickbag-

KYLE GETZ

Idiots.

MIKE JOHNSON

-idiots. Um, but now, on Issue #6 of Tim Drake: Robin, the two are gonna be kissing on the cover. He’s fully Robin-ed out [Kyle chuckles] and he kisses Bernard in the night with his cape blowing in the wind, covering Barnard, and the Gotham City skyline in the background. The edition is- it doesn’t come out until February of 2023, so I guess they’re trying to get all of the, like, bigoted bullshit out of the way now by announcing it. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um… But yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, they’re just- they’re adorable, and now there’s a same-sex kiss between Robin and his boyfriend on the cover of a DC comic, and I think that’s pretty fuckin’ fantastic.

KYLE GETZ

That’s- I’ve seen the squares of him coming out to his dad or something, and it’s like a very cute, like, whole coming out, and him being supportive and stuff, and, you know, we need all kinds of stories, including stories where just, like, you come out and someone is like, fiercely still loves their child unconditionally, as most parents say and only some parents do.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, he actually did it, so, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Anytime in fiction, of any form, that there’s a supportive Dad, I’m a blubbering mess.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

I have daddy issues for sure.

KYLE GETZ

Did you- Was- Did that happen to you in Love, Simon? I was like, “This is not that good of a movie,” but I cried when he came out to Josh Duhamel. I was like, [speaking dramatically] “He’s so hot and supportive!”

MIKE JOHNSON

[whispering] I didn’t see it.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, spoiler. Sorry. [Mike laughs] Back in time, spoiler. Hit the back button 30 seconds, Mike! I mean, forward 30.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh my god, can you imagine if you could edit my brain? [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

God. I think you- Is- Have you been editing my brain? Is that why I forget everything? You’re just like “Ahh, let’s take away that dumb thing I said.” Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, and I’m gonna have to edit this. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, that’s true…

MIKE JOHNSON

That time he realized.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. [laughing] “That time he realized.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, that’s the news!

KYLE GETZ

How many other times have I realized that you’ve edited- [whispering] How many times has this happened? I’ll never remember! [gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, did you use the flashy thing on me, from Men in Black? [laughs] That’s the news, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ

Um, speaking of the flashy thing from Men in Black, these are our flash new Patreons-

MIKE JOHNSON

Superheroes, Kyle! These are our superheroes!

KYLE GETZ

Fuck me, that was better. [Mike laughs] Flash me, Mike! Let me redo it! And, thanks for that transition, Mike. And now I’m gonna talk about the superheroes from Patreon, a transition I thought of myself. Thank you to: Michael McCrohon… I didn’t do that right.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nailed it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I didn’t even try again. Trevor Nelson. Got that one.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, good work.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, way to go, Trevor! Uh, Christopher Cash –  Johnny’s grandson.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, Christopher’s slightly less cash now, but…

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] I mean, Christopher likes cents, based on what he’s donating.

KYLE GETZ

Um, and Sam… Weiller? Wheeler? We-iller? Weilleuler. Weilleueelelurr. Um, thank you so much [laughs] to our Patreon members, and I apologize! If you want to join Patreon for bonus content, last month’s bonus episode was about math, and there was a lot-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, and brunch.

KYLE GETZ

Eh, math brunch. Brunch math. [Mike laughs]. And there were some really interesting studies, I thought, that was there. So, if you want to join, you get full bonus episodes every month as well as weekly stuff, more bonus shit, lots of bonus- We need to count up how many hours. It’s got to be over 100 hours by now, because we’ve done so much. Anyway, patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do it.

KYLE GETZ

Do you want to talk about FIFA and…

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh my God, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

…[trying to do the glottal fricative] Qatar?

MIKE JOHNSON

Qatar.

KYLE GETZ

Qa- Qatar?

MIKE JOHNSON

Qatar.

KYLE GETZ

Qatar? It sounds more like an H when you’re saying it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Qatar.

KYLE GETZ

Qatar. I’m not gonna do that every time!

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s my understanding. And now, like, I kind of want to just say “Qatar” [TN: Like “cotter”] because that’s how I- that’s how I, like, naturally said it before-

KYLE GETZ

“Qatar”, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-going down this rabbit hole of “How do you say it?”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But yeah, I watched a couple of YouTube videos and I’m an expert now. It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect in in play.

KYLE GETZ

[both laugh] That’s literally our podcast. That’s- Like, “I read two articles, and now let me teach you about it.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Which one are you, Dunning or Kruger?

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Oh, I’m for sure Dunning.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

You’re definitely Kruger.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. I love this for us. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I think we are- Just, the fact that we’re not saying Qatar [TN: like the “cu” in “cut” + “tar”], the fact that we’re saying Qatar, [TN: like “cotter”] that alone I think is a step up from a lot of Americans, so I’m giving us basic, minimal credit of doing a minimal amount of work to know that part.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Thank you. Thank you, me, from the credit I gave myself.

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you. We- Yeah, we’ve surveyed every Arabic speaking person in the room, and it is- [both laugh] and we won.

KYLE GETZ

I hear no object- Any objections? Any objections? None! Cool. It passes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Going with it.

KYLE GETZ

We’re trying.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, we’re trying. We are trying. First of all, Kyle…

KYLE GETZ

First of all, Mike…

MIKE JOHNSON

…are you a soccer fan? Are you a football fan?

KYLE GETZ

Um, I grew up- My dad played soccer. He, like, still played- plays soccer, like, kind of a little bit. Hi dad, if you’re listening, please pause the podcast and stop doing this. I told you not to. [Mike laughs] He, like, played in leagues that were like, you know, 50 and up, whereas like… should you be playing this game at your age? But he- Like, so he is a lifelong soccer player. He coached my brother’s team. My brother played through high school. I’ve been to a million soccer tournaments. It’s one of those things that I- when I joke about being gay, I joke about things like not understanding sports or whatever. I understand football, I understand soccer. Soccer, if I was gonna pick something, tennis and soccer would be the two that I would actually pick to, like, actively- That’s not- Yeah. Like, those were the ones I understand.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, the reason we’re talking about soccer, anybody under a rock is- Like, the FIFA World Cup is happening right now in Qatar, and when the World Cup comes around it’s only every four years, which, it feels more often than that, because I don’t care.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do you tune in? Do you pay attention, or you don’t follow?

KYLE GETZ

No. No, no, no. I don’t give a shit. I have- It lasts for forever. There are a million different leagues and I don’t know or care, that’s the part that I don’t know. Do you? Do you know about or care about FIFA, or soccer, or…?

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

None whatso- I just don’t.

KYLE GETZ

Do you know, like, the rule- Do I know more about the rules of soccer than you?

MIKE JOHNSON

So, the- I played soccer when I was, like, five, which is not really soccer.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s “put a ball out there and watch kids run into each other”.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah, that’s “just swarm the ball because you don’t know how to, like, not go run after the ball that’s sitting there”, and like, you’re like, the fielder.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Position”? What’s that? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I just- Like, the reason I want to have this conversation with you though, is because I, listening to all of the discourse about FIFA and all the issues that they have, and their selection of Qatar, and Russia the last time, I very much approach it from this position of: It’s a fucking game and I don’t fucking care, get your shit together. And I need to- I need to check that, because it is the world’s sport, and people care deeply, and it is billions if not trillions of dollars that are involved. And so, for me to be so flippant and dismissive of the whole institution is really… it comes from a position of ignorance and insensitivity that I- that I want to understand better.

KYLE GETZ

There is a- You know… yes and no. [Mike laughs] Like, it is a like a-

MIKE JOHNSON

Or fuck it all, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ

Or fuck it! Okay. It’s a world- It’s a cultural, worldwide phenomenon that the US just hasn’t caught, so there is a bit of, like, if you just believe it doesn’t matter then you’re kind of dismissing a lot of things that every other country or most other countries give a shit about, so I don’t want to do that. At the same time, when we’re- when we’re putting into the scale of things, it is, in fact, a game that people are choosing to play. Unlike a lot of things, you are not born a soccer player, you’re not born a football player. Like, if we’re kind of stack ranking the importance of things, it is very important, not as important as other identities that belong to a person. So, that’s the part that I- I think it’s good coming from this place of, like, so much of what we hear is like trying to balance with the importance of soccer, and how much people care about soccer, and what- And I’m gonna call it soccer, because I don’t know, fuck you, this is where I- I just, I live here and this is what we call it. [In a mocking tone] Respect my culture, here we call it soccer. Um, but like-

MIKE JOHNSON

No, some cultures suck. More on that later.

KYLE GETZ

That’s true. [both laugh] Oh no, I need to leave this episode right now, I already got uncomfortable. Um, but like- Yeah, I don’t know. So I- Yes and no, you know? I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm. Okay, so-

KYLE GETZ

Most gays only care about the hot soccer dudes.

MIKE JOHNSON

‘Cause they’re hot. Cristiano Ronaldo, sit on my face.

KYLE GETZ

That is- That has not worked for Darren Criss, it def- Darren Criss-stian Ronaldo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yet.

KYLE GETZ

That’s true. [both laugh] I think you gotta- But like, you can’t spread the facesitting around to different celebrities. I think you gotta- if you’re gonna-

MIKE JOHNSON

Spread those legs! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I think you gotta go hard at one. So you’ve got to stick with Darren Criss If you’re gonna stick- Right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Ohh.

KYLE GETZ

You know, you can’t- If Darren Criss is like, “Oh, maybe I’ll sit on his face,” and he’s like, “Wait, but you also said that about Cristiano Ronaldo?” like, “He doesn’t actually care about me,” you know?

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, counterpoint.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I get three.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I can choose three, but I’m only allowed to change them every six months, and then I- like, one of them has to fall off to make room for another one.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. I’m just picturing the Friends scene where Isabella Rossellini sees him and she goes “But it’s laminated.” [Mike laughs] There’s a select number of Friends people that will understand that, but anyway, this doesn’t matter.

MIKE JOHNSON

[sighs] This doesn’t matter.

KYLE GETZ

Um, what did you want to talk- Yes, we’re talking about it because it’s the World Cup and people care about it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

FIFA is the HBIC of soccer in the world, – football in the world – and the World Cup which is the pinnacle- it’s like, actually a World Series.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, unlike baseball. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Unlike ours, which is just us and Canada. But it is the governing body of international soccer, and it is a shitty institute.

KYLE GETZ

Corrupt, right. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

It is corrupt as fuck. So, they awarded the 2018 World Cup to Russia and the 2022 World Cup to Qatar amid lots of controversy that there were payoffs, and bribes, and that it didn’t actually represent the will of the body. Like, there was- There are a whole bunch of serious, serious issues, and all of that’s because of this guy named Sepp Blatter, which I think sounds like a UTI.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah. [laughing] “Sorry, I can’t tonight, honey. I got Sepp Blatter.”

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Exactly. “If your Sepp Blatter lasts more than four hours, go to the ER.” Uh, he was the president of the organization at the time that all of these decisions were being made, and he and other top executives were facing corruption charges, and they since, as part of cleaning up their act, agreed to require, quote, “Minimum human rights standards for countries that apply to host soccer competitions,” including zero tolerance for discrimination based on sexual orientation. What they didn’t say was that – again, this is before Russia and Qatar – that they were going to enforce or protect those things the next two times.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right?

KYLE GETZ

Like, so that comes into effect after this one?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh, sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s this weird, like, tiptoeing around recognition that “We are just a game, we are just an organization, a very rich and very famous and very popular organization, but this is still a sovereign country where we are going and doing business, and we are subject to the laws of that place and need to be mindful of that,” and lots of people not from that country are going to go to that country to attend this event and they’re going to bring with them their own sensibilities about what they should be allowed to do, and- Anyway, it just-

KYLE GETZ

There’s a lot about this that seems reasonable at face value, the “Respect our culture, respect our country, respect, what we stand for.” Like, there are certain things- Like, a lot of it is like, yeah, okay, yeah, we can do that. Like, you know? So, I think that’s one of the challenges that you have to dig more into to understand more, and remember that what people say is not always- they’re not gonna illuminate the full picture of what’s going on. So.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, I know that you’re gonna talk more about, like, LGBT rights or lack thereof in Qatar, and, just, I think that there’s been a lot of focus that’s been placed on FIFA choosing that country for this year’s World Cup.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

They also chose Russia four years ago. That was in the midst of all of the Chechnya gay purges that were happening, their anti-gay propaganda law that was coming into effect under the Putin regime. And we should not be surprised. Like, the fact that people are all of a sudden “What!? FIFA’s doing what!?” is-

KYLE GETZ

Oh. Yeah, yeah. It’s not like they have an impeccable record of only, you know, pristine human rights countries in their background or whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON

You can only- You can only have that opinion if you’ve had your own head up your ass.

KYLE GETZ

Right. Right, right.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right? Like, this- this is, yeah, this is an organization that has had problems with this in the past, and I think we can have every expectation will continue to. So the shit that’s going down in Qatar is around, first, by awarding that to that country, there was a whole bunch of migrant work that had to be done to build up the infrastructure to be able to host it that’s basically akin to modern day slavery in terms of the rules around it, and how much they’re actually getting paid, and their ability to leave the country if they want to without permission of their employer. It’s horrific, and the camps that they live in while they were building these things. Then there is the big question of alcohol, which, they had said there was going to be alcohol allowed in the stadiums, then just a few days before World Cup was set to open they said no alcohol allowed in the stadium during play, but there still would be alcohol just outside, which, it was all handwavy bullshit. They reneged. Basically, Qatar said, “Yeah, sure. You can totally drink. It’ll be fine,” and then, like, days before it started, said “No.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Which, that- I mean, like, those two things are clearly not on the same level, but I think it speaks to things that they say are that are going to happen and then changing. Like, how much does your word mean? And so, that, to me, is what’s important about the alcohol thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Like, I don’t really care that much about defending the right to drink alcohol, like, that’s not on my list of priorities.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t either, except that I love booze, but-

KYLE GETZ

Same. I mean- Yeah. As I drink my whiskey, honey, lemon, whatever shit-

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s so good, I hope you love it.

KYLE GETZ

It’s- I’m drunk. [laughs] Goodbye.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Okay, good. Good work. And then there’s the whole controversy which we talked in the news here not too long ago of, of, you know, rainbow attire and outward support for the LGBT community has been banned from the stadiums. There were a bunch of captains that were gonna wear armbands that were in support, that were then told not to, or if they did then they were gonna get a yellow card and that’s bad news, like, within the rules of the game, that is gonna impact, you know, the outcome. And then they said that they would allow it after all. Like, there were stories of people having their shit taken away from them on their way into the stadium, and then that stopped after a statement was made by an official that they were going to allow it after all. All the stuff leading up to the World Cup about, like, “Yes, gay people, you will be safe, just maybe don’t hold hands,” which, that’s bullshit.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s- There’s a lot going on that we’re gonna talk more in- it- Like, taking an institution that’s a global institution like this, and so popular, hosting it in a place that’s so problematic, especially for queer people, and then see real-time the culture war in a way different context than we are prepared to approach in the United States. I’m super- I’m super interested in it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I mean, I wrote down just, like, a tidbit more- more gravities that 1000s of migrant workers have died during the construction of the infrastructure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. But were they drunk? [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Um, which, they’re- It’s interesting, because I was talking to a straight friend of mine who was like, “Well, there’s more- Like, there’s more important things than the LGBT rights piece,” and it’s- it’s really difficult because the- that even comes up around the issues of trans people, like, the percentage. When you look at the percentage, you know, it’s like, what do you prioritize? And the percentage of people that it impacts, that unfortunately comes up as a: How do you prioritize this? What do voters care about? What do people care about? And the- And so, the death of 1000s of people is huge. That’s really important, and, that doesn’t take away from the major LGBT issues. Like, we don’t have to choose, “I get to be mad about one thing,” you know?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

And so that’s why we’re- We’re gonna focus on the LGBT issues. That’s what our podcast is about. That’s what we’re doing here. Surely there are other people out there who, well, probably do this better, but also do the other thing better too. Like, you know, this is just what we’re gonna focus on.

MIKE JOHNSON

Also, I think that, largely, mainstream media has sort of forgotten. Like, “Oh, yeah, of course a bunch of migrant workers died. [chuckles] That always happens. Moving on. What can we actually care about?” and then they focus on booze and queers, right? Like- And that’s really- that’s really unfortunate, but I think that’s what’s happening. There’s this sort of, like, understanding that anytime a big major international event comes to a place, the Olympics comes to mind.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like there’s gonna be this building of infrastructure, and “Yeah, people are gonna die, but it’s fine.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s not fine. It’s absolutely not fine.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But like, that’s the- There’s like a collective sweeping under the rug that happens that I think we’re sort of complicit in.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Or, queer issues get more clicks because they’re more controversial or something? I don’t know why that would- Even as I say that, that’s dumb that queer issues would be more controversial than fucking slave labor. Like, I- I mean- But there- We have, you know, effectively slave labor in the US, and that’s what some of these votes on were in the midterms recently. Like, I mean, we have- How often does that get spoken about? Like, it’s…

MIKE JOHNSON

I was just listening to somebody on NPR talking about immigration policy and how we need to fix what’s happening at the border so that we have workers to do the work that Americans don’t want to do, and I was thinking, well, that’s- that’s basi- It’s the same thing, right? That’s like, “We need to open the borders so we have brown people to do the shitty labor and die,” right? Like-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The idea that, like, everyone’s like, “Oh, like, immigrants steal work,” and then here we are like, “God we need that fuckin’ work.” [Mike laughs] Like, that’s- Yeah, it’s fucked up. So, I mean, none of this is to dismiss the US as- I sometimes like to make- or, remind people; it’s easy to look at another country and be like, “Oh, we would never do that,” or “We’re better than that.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, some of these things, I think, are useful, not to say that they’re the same, but to be like, “No, we’re not fucking better than them.” Like, this is not your excuse to be shitty to anyone who – you know – lives in that country or whose faith is Islam. Like- Okay, but I’m gonna talk- That’s not what I’m gonna talk about. I’m talking about LGBT rights in Qatar.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great. Yeah. Let’s do it. They have none. Good segment. [laughing]

KYLE GETZ

Sssso, yep, it’s bad. Goodbye. What the-

MIKE JOHNSON

[coughs hard] [whispering] Sorry, I’m dying.

KYLE GETZ

[quietly] Stop it. Die quieter. [both laugh] Um, Qatar’s Supreme Committee for Delivery & Legacy has promised-

MIKE JOHNSON

That sounds like bullshit!

KYLE GETZ

There’s some of these- Like, it’s like “North Korea’s supreme leader”. Like, some of these words you’re like, Jesus, that already- I’m like- Yeah, I don’t love the-

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s like anytime the Senate puts forward the, like, “America Number One Freedom Act”, and we’re like, “Oh, this is for sure against brown people.” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Oh yeah, this is definitely racist. Um, but they have promised – before the world cup – they promised a discrimination free event, and they said that it is welcoming, safe, and accessible to all.

MIKE JOHNSON

Liars.

KYLE GETZ

They said – in the statement – they said, quote, “Everyone is welcome in Qatar, but we are a conservative country and any public display of affection, regardless of orientation, is frowned upon. We simply ask for people to respect our culture.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I have heard that.

KYLE GETZ

Which-

MIKE JOHNSON

I have heard that there’s some truth to that, which doesn’t make any of the rest of it okay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s one of those things that seems reasonable. When you hear that and you’re like, “Oh, we just need to respect the culture of the country we’re going to,” that’s reasonable. And especially, like- you’re like, “Okay, I’m a good liberal, so that’s important to me that I do that,” and so when someone says that to you, you’re like, “Okay, shit, I need to stop and think about this,” and you do, and you definitely do need to. So, like, let’s look at what’s actually happening though.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, a lot of what we know about is from people that said they needed to remain anonymous, because it’s bad, that you don’t want to say your real name. Like, that would definitely get you repercussions.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

So, in the Doha News an anonymous gay man named Majid said – I’m just gonna read this part – quote, “It is very jarring living here, it is traumatizing to see that you are the cause of your parents’ anguish, that you are shaming your family. It is a constant onslaught, and it is killing me. It has caused irreparable damage to my mental health. I wouldn’t have chosen to have been born in a place where my life is tantamount to my death. There is no prospect or future for me here – no normalcy. What are my choices? Should all of us gay Qataris emigrate? I have thought of that, but this is my home country. I love my country and I am proud of it, and I don’t have anywhere else to go.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Mm.

KYLE GETZ

[sighs] So, part of what’s happening, especially within the country – this reminds me a lot of Russia – is there are- mainstream media censors any kind of discussion reports of sexual orientation, or gender identity. And so, I think that’s- Within a country, that’s how you try to make people believe that it doesn’t exist. Or, like, if you see an uprising, if you see that there’s- there are actually- this group of people that do exist and in other countries are fighting for the rights or whatever, that might empower you. So they kind of squelch any kind of discussion or news about LGBT issues.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. If you don’t see it, it isn’t real. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Yep, yep. And then, within the country, you’re like, “I don’t know any of the truth. The news has been, like, changed so that I don’t see any of the real information. I just see the propaganda, or, you know, any of the bad reports or anything.” So, what we’re actually talking about, what’s- the laws, then, article- There are a couple, but the biggest one is Article 285 of the current Penal Code, which punishes-

MIKE JOHNSON

Hah, “penal”. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

“Penal”. It’s like “penis”. Um- We need to find joy anywhere we can in this story, Mike. Let’s do it. “Penal”. It punishes extramarital sex, including same-sex relations, with up to seven years in prison. So that actually seems- There’s a lot of talk about the death penalty, but that seems to be the most realistic kind of actual punishment that is listed in the laws. The death penalty is only applicable for Muslims, because of Sharia law. So, like, if you’re not- If you’re Muslim, and live there, and gay, well, extramarital sex is punished by death, and because same-sex marriage isn’t legal then any gay sex is extramarital sex, but that technically also applies to anyone who’s had straight sex.

MIKE JOHNSON

I had read a couple of times, there are things that are punishable by death that have never actually resulted in the death penalty, like that somehow justifies it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, and this is one of them that it’s like, you know, everything is like, this- You know, we don’t have any kind of recent information about any of this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hypothetically.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. This doesn’t actually happen. And- What were you gonna say? Like, is that fine?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. No.

KYLE GETZ

No. Okay, cool, [both laugh] that was your- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, my- My point was that there are lots of people who say “Well, but nobody’s ever been actually put to the death for it,” like that somehow justifies the law, or like that somehow nullifies the understanding that that’s happening. Like, it’s still a deterrent. It’s still this, like, oppressive wet blanket on your entire life, whether you- Like, okay, so nobody’s actually been put death for it, but they might, and that’s scary.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Like- Yeah, “Oh, my neighbor has threatened me and pointed a gun at me, but he’s never actually shot me,” so like, “Oh, well, I mean, I guess it’s fine.” Yeah. Like, the- living under this threat, who knows if and when someone could use it. And the belief – the underlying belief – that makes it okay that it’s sitting there is that it still affects society.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Society believes it’s okay that that’s sitting there on the law books. What I saw less of, but is huge, is that they often will detain people based on Law No 17 of the 2002 Protection of Community, which allows for provisional detention. You don’t have to be charged, you don’t have to have a trial. You can be detained for up to six months. If there is some kind of belief that there was a crime, or – it reminds me of the morality laws that are in Iran that they’re protesting against – like, if you violate public morality, then we can detain you.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

They’re detained by the Protective Security Department, [TN: Preventive Security Department] which is technically not the police. I might accidentally call them police, but like, that’s the department. It’s a national security team.

MIKE JOHNSON

Going back to Iran: that’s like the morality police in Iran. They’re not, like, really the police, but they are- They are.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. I mean-

MIKE JOHNSON

They were just supposedly abolished this week.

KYLE GETZ

We had- But then I’ve seen the Instagram things that I handle… that I handle- the handles that I follow are like, “No. Like, a person made this proclamation. There’s no laws that’ve been passed about this.” It’s not like- They’re like, “No, it didn’t actually happen.” Like, the New York Times fucking published this thing that’s like- I’ve been hearing real shitty things about the New York Times, like the public transphobic shit. Like, I’ve not been hearing good things about the New York Times.

MIKE JOHNSON

Really?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

They, like, publish this transphobic op-ed, and then later will be like, [doing a mocking voice] “Crazy wave of transphobia.” Like, they’re-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, oh, oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There’s a bothsidesism, maybe, to it. I don’t know. The New York Times- Let’s talk later about this, because I’m very interest- As a subscriber to the New York Times, I’m very interested in this.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, so, the Preventative Security Department that is detaining people, as of October 20…22- Why did I stumble over our current year of existence? I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Well, sometimes I see 2022 on paper and I’m like, “What year is that?”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Some year.

MIKE JOHNSON

Is that the future?

KYLE GETZ

It’s like, a bunch of twos with an 0 in it, you know? [Mike chuckles] Um, this is serious and sad. Um, reports that the Qatari police use – and maybe I wrote “police”, I think it’s the Preventive Security Department – uses gay dating apps to entrap men, subjecting them to sexual and physical violence before arresting them. There was one report by an anonymous person that went by Ali, who was lured to a hotel from dating app. When he got there, there were six people there, including the person that – you know – that he thought he was going to meet. [Mike laughs] So he walked in and was like, “Fuck.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, that never happens to me. I show up and the OP is never there. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

There’s- [laughs] If I walked in there and there’re six people there, there’re context, that would be hot. ‘Cause it’s not – absolutely not – one of them. So, serious for a second, when he showed up there were six people from this department. He was gang raped by them and- And that was the end of my story.

MIKE JOHNSON

That seems not not gay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s- It’s- It’s so weird that that would- I also- Like, that’s such a weird thing. Like, “We are so against gay people that we’re going to rape a man.” Like, that doesn’t-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know. How do you- What’s the- What’s the weird workaround logic? Like- I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s this- There’s an argument in, like, Judeo-Christian circles about, like, is sodomy the violence of it, or is it the fact that it was in the butt? Because, like, most people think probably that God and Jesus, the thing that they’re not down with is violating a person.

KYLE GETZ

Right, right. The bad thing is actually the rape, not the butt part.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. But we’ve interpreted it as- Yeah. According to Dr. Nasser Mohamed, quote, their “biggest targets are feminine gay men and transgender women – because it’s visible.” I’ll talk more about Dr. Nasser Mohamed later, but the- this- I mean, we have had this in the US. This is why we often say that trans women, especially trans women of color, are the ones that started this movement. It’s not because they intended to, because they are often the ones targeted. So it’s interesting to see that, you know, continue to play out, that when you are visible, and – whether you want to or not – you are then targeted, and then you unfortunately have to become an activist.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, that’s not your- A lot of times it’s like “I don’t- I didn’t want to be an activist. I was just targeted by the police so fucking much I had nothing else to do.” And whereas someone like me, who is- I could more easily pass – here’s that word again – I would be less likely to be targeted.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So I have some benefit that I don’t look a certain way.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

So, they arrest LGBT people and subjected them to ill treatment and detention. That’s the most light-hearted way to describe that.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Ill treatment”. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I don’t- I don’t know where I wrote that down, but it’s- The Human Rights Watch documented, from Dr. Nasser Mohamed – again, we’ll talk about it later – but he made these connections to- Because, like, you cannot be out in Qatar, so- like, there are all these connections. Even in the gay world, this is why, like, getting catfished on gay dating apps is, like, so horrific. It’s like, you are- you’re underground. You’re doing things through connections of people. You’re not- You know, you’re trying to hide it. And to find out one of those channels is not safe to be on, or, you know, let’s say one of your friends ends up – this happens – being converted to an agent because you got caught. Like, things- You never know for sure that something’s safe. So anyway, this guy connected the Human Rights Watch with six people, which is more than I’ve seen anywhere else, that they documented six cases of severe and repeated beatings between 2019 and 20…22. [Mike laughs] I don’t know why that date’s fucking me up! But it’s- “Six” is not to say that’s all that has happened. That is, like, again, like you have such limited connections to people who are willing to speak, and, you know, all of them are doing it anonymously. There are five cases of sexual harassment in police custody between that same timeframe. For example, they required – for release – they required that one of the trans women attend a conversion therapy session, what they called a “behavioral healthcare center,” but it’s, like, flat-out conversion therapy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

They forced them to unlock their phones and take screenshots of all of your chats, and pictures, and everything to then find other people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hey Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Hey Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

I was in Dubai.

KYLE GETZ

Uh-huh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Not too long ago.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

You may have heard I did some traveling.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Did you tell them about me?

MIKE JOHNSON

I told them all about you, and they’re ready for you. [Kyle laughs] No, I deleted Grindr off my phone before we landed because I was afraid of, like, what if I’m going through immigration and they’re like, “You seem pretty gay.”

KYLE GETZ

“Unlock your phone.”

MIKE JOHNSON

“Unlock your phone.” I was like- I deleted a whole bunch of dick pics, [laughs] and I took Grindr off my phone. I was like, “Oh my God,” because I’d heard stories like this. And I’m like, that is so fucking terrifying.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it was fine.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I just, like, waltzed right out of the airport.

KYLE GETZ

But I mean, the thing is, like, often, all of these conversations, they’re like, if you’re poor you’re more likely to be targeted, if you’re more fem or trans you’re more likely to targeted. Like, if you are a white person, if you are a visitor-

MIKE JOHNSON

I am.

KYLE GETZ

As you are, based on your skin. Um, If you’re- Like, there are certain things that are like, you’re more- you’re less likely to be targeted.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And so the same- I think, for Qatar, if people go there they are going to not target anyone that’s visiting internationally because they don’t want to make this a scene. They may be, you know, more discreet about all the shit they’re doing. They may be nicer to other people and they’re like, “Oh, no, I went there and it was fine! Oh, I just didn’t hold my boyfriend’s hand and everything was fine!” and I think that’s to hide some of these underlying things that are going on. So.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, absolutely. There’s also, like, a true thing in the Muslim faith, of they actually don’t care that much about what non-Muslims do. Muslims have to toe the line. Like they- there’s a zero-tolerance policy for them. But like, if you’re not Muslim then it’s maybe okay. It seems to be part of the dogma. Like, there are lots of majority-Muslim countries where they can serve alcohol but only to non-Muslims. Like, there’re whole districts in Doha – in Qatar – where, at least in the past, you were able to sell liquor as long as somebody wasn’t a Muslim. Which, I don’t know how you tell that. Is it like, you have like a non-Muslim ID card?

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But there does definitely seem to be part of the part of the faith that is way more interested in policing their own behavior as opposed to the behavior of others.

KYLE GETZ

Hm, interesting. That’s weird. There’s something refreshing about that, of like-

MIKE JOHNSON

But still not okay.

KYLE GETZ

Not okay. It’s like, I wish Christians were like “Let’s only police Christians behavior.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ

Because they clearly want to be-

MIKE JOHNSON

At least in this country, they’re fucking it up.

KYLE GETZ

In this country- Yeah, they’re trying to police literally everyone’s behavior. So, is that a good segue into your segment?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m gonna get us kicked off the air.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I need to pee.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay. Is that why- [laughs] And now, here’s a two minute segment of the sounds of Mike peeing.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m doing it now. Some people would be into that, I’m pretty sure.

KYLE GETZ

That’s very true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, we’re back.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Are we- Are we back?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, that’s not what happened. Okay. I want to talk about cultural relativism-

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and the idea that you have to understand and mitigate your feelings about another culture based on how they think about themselves, as opposed to a universal truth.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it’s sort of the same principle by which we let, like, old people off the hook. You know what I mean?

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah. Like, “Oh, no, they’re from a different generation, and that excuses racism, homophobia, transphobia.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, I’ve been sick, as everyone can hear, and I-

KYLE GETZ

Some people think your voice has just been getting sexier. [Mike laughs] So, I don’t know- I don’t know if you want to find a way to maintain this level. You got some positive feedback on your sick voice.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s true. That’s true. Or was it my sick hair, because my sick hair was also pretty good.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh, that’s true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Pretty good in that picture.

KYLE GETZ

You did one of those [in a mocking voice] “I just woke up,” but you had clearly, like, spent some time?

MIKE JOHNSON

No!

KYLE GETZ

No? Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I woke up like that!

KYLE GETZ

Okay, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I did! I woke up like that!

KYLE GETZ

Okay, Beyoncé, that’s fine. Yeah. I get it. Yep. That’s how you look.

MIKE JOHNSON

I was adorable. It was good lighting. [Kyle laughs] Um, okay. Okay. So, I went down this k-hole of watching YouTube channels run by Muslims, and their thoughts, feelings, and opinions about FIFA and the World Cup, but specifically about gay stuff.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I have arrived at this point where I find now the whole faith terrifying.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I- I’m legit nervous about it. Like, I- I’m- The stance that I want to take, or have taken in my heart and I’m just afraid to, like, say it, is that that religion, almost without exception, hates gay people. And I think that I am- I’m prepared to say that that’s wrong, that moral relativism is unacceptable in this context, and that there are a universal set of truths that we can rely on that supersede religion or culture, and basic human rights and dignity trump those things. So, I want to have a conversation about that. I have lots of, like, facts about, like, what’s halal and what’s haram, and like, what Islam says, and what’s in the Quran and what’s not, but, like, I really- There’s this weird sandwich, as a liberal person in this country, there’s this weird, like, layered approach that I have that still arrives at “Islam as wrong, and I think they’re stupid, and I hate it.”

KYLE GETZ

Mhm. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I also feel that way about most Christianity.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And so, there’s a certain amount of like xenophobia that might be present in this, but like, on the whole, that religion subjugates and oppresses women, hates gay people, is absolutely intolerant of have any outside influence or appeal to higher principles, and the whole thing is really terrifying. Like, have you- Have you studied this at all? Have you looked into this at all?

KYLE GETZ

I want to say, like, what you described is also exactly how I feel about Christianity.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

All those things you said: hates gay people, on the whole oppresses women, rejects outside influences or whatever. Like, that, to me, you also described Christianity. Is that- I mean, would you say the same things about Christianity?

MIKE JOHNSON

I- [sighs] Not to the same extent.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And- Close, but not to the same extent.

KYLE GETZ

And is that just because we know some of the nuances, or we know people. Like, Joseph Peters Matthews is a priest that is supportive about LGBT issues. There are certain sects, or divisions, or, I don’t know, denominations that are supportive of LGBT people. Is that- Is it just because of our knowledge of Christianity that we give them a little bit more leeway? That would be the part that I would worry about there’s a difference in.

MIKE JOHNSON

I have not studied this, but my gut tells me that Christianity slowly but surely is yielding to Western principles of egalitarianism and feminism, and being affirming of gay and sexual identity minorities, GSRM, gender and sexual relationship minorities.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. And I- This is- No, I have not gone down the, like, this kind of level of understanding, so I mostly just need to learn from what you’ve researched, I think, to understand that.

MIKE JOHNSON

One thing that has emerged from watching all of these YouTubers is that they very much are posturing our angst about gay rights at the World Cup as just us being Islamophobic and hating their religion, and they therefore don’t have to look any further than what’s being said. They can immediately just, like, dismiss everything as being like, “Well, you’re just Islamophobic,” and-

KYLE GETZ

I think that’s a fair concern to be worried about. We certainly, on the whole, like, any kind of- the average American is going to be Islamophobic and xenophobic, so I understand that concern. But, I mean, I just described a bunch of things that I didn’t talk about. I talked about religion literally one time, and everything I described and what I described is horrific.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

The treatment of LGBT people in that country is horrific.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

And so, I’ve- And if that’s being influenced by their religion, which I think it is, that- I mean, you can’t- Yeah. If you just purely dismiss it then that’s- that’s homophobic. Now we’re having a war of, like, “You’re xenophobic,” “Well, you’re homophobic,” like- and- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, so Qatar’s constitution says that Sharia law is the main source of their legal system, and it includes a whole bunch of stuff, including family law, inheritance, criminal act. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff in there that just is wrong, like the idea that, in family courts, a female’s testimony is worth half that of a man’s. Islamic polygamy is permitted, so men are allowed to have multiple wives in that system.

KYLE GETZ

And, I take it, not the other way around?

MIKE JOHNSON

And not the other way around. Corporal punishment is the way that they enforce a lot of their rules. Flogging or caning is employed as a punishment for alcohol consumption. Sexual relations, outside of one man and one woman for the purposes of procreation, for instance adultery, the penalty is 100 lashes. Like I was saying an earlier segment, Muslims are the ones that receive those punishments. There’s a sort of understanding that they police their own and are less interested in the crazy shit that non-Muslims do, but stoning is still a legal punishment under that system. Apostasy, homosexuality, are crimes that are punishable by the death penalty.

KYLE GETZ

What is apostasy?

MIKE JOHNSON

Apostasy is-

KYLE GETZ

You can’t pretend to be an apostle?

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Apostasy is saying that you’re no longer a Muslim.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, you can’t- You can’t even leave?

MIKE JOHNSON

You can’t leave.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s punishable by death. Uh, blasphemy, you can go to prison.

KYLE GETZ

God, I haven’t been blasphemy’d in so long.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Blasphemy me, daddy.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Blasphemy, daddy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, quick aside, just because I- I just saw the note for it.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

There was, just like Canada in the 50s or whatever with the fruit machine, there was a proposed homosexuality test called the GCC test, [TN: The GCC homosexuality test] which, that stands for Gulf Cooperation Council, which is a group of countries that are all, like, in bed together because Islam.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And they were trying to prevent any homosexuals from traveling to those countries. And, several years ago, the Director of Public Health of Kuwait was trying to say that all of the countries that are in that conglomerate should impose this test ahead of the World Cup so they can make sure that no- no faggots came to their-

KYLE GETZ

I saw that, like, that proposal that, like, didn’t come to fruition, luckily, because what the fuck are you going to do? Like- But I saw that was like a potential, or in discussion.

MIKE JOHNSON

Apparently the- they didn’t really know how they were gonna implement it either, except that there’s lots of documentation about routine medical examinations: anal probes. They were going- they were gonna inspect buttholes to see if they had been “violated” recently, to decide whether you were a homosexual.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. God.

MIKE JOHNSON

Which, it’s just- And you’re right, it did not come to fruition, but, like, [chuckles] putting the “fruit” in “fruition”.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, but that was a seriously discussed thing, to make sure that no gays would come to this thing.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Here’s the thing. The sentence that I’m afraid of, I guess, is: if owning women and controlling their lives, if killing gay people, is Islamophobic – and that’s what a lot of them are saying on YouTube, is that it is – then I guess I’m Islamophobic. Like, I don’t know- I don’t know how to reconcile that. Can you help me figure out how to navigate that? Because I feel like a bad liberal, but, like, I- I guess- I guess I am, because I think it’s wrong. I’m prepared to say “Your religion is wrong. Fuck you.”

KYLE GETZ

I- So- Okay. Here’s what I figured for- in the US. And I got into a discussion with someone on Facebook Messenger – and I forget your name and don’t even know if I’m allowed to say it, but thank you for the discussion – when I mentioned that a practice in conservative Judaism is to suck the blood off of an infant’s penis during the circumcision.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I think one of the complaints that they brought up, that is important, is that does happen and it is very rare. It is not, like, commonplace.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

One of the issues- And I thought through that a lot, because any kind of- Any- Same as you, I’m like, I try- I view myself as a supportive, liberal, understanding basic human rights, you know, kind of person. What- When I complain about Christianity, I feel very confident saying “Fuck Christians,” and I don’t care if there’s- there are denominations that support LGBT people. We have friends who- I don’t know. Like, whatever. They are the dominant religion in our country that are attacking LGBT, and specifically trans, people in this country, so I feel really comfortable with that. Because of- And especially because they are the majority. So when you attack other religions, especially in the US, when they are minorities, it can give people- make them feel like it is okay to then be xenophobic, to be Islamophobic, to be- Like, as much as I say- If we say, “I disagree with this religion,” I also don’t want anyone in the US to be attacked because of their practice, or believed- or perceived religion. Like, I don’t want that. That should not give us a license to treat people differently. I believe basic human rights means that I both hate that treatment of women and gay people, but I also don’t want anyone to be treated poorly because of their belief.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So I both don’t want- I want that- I don’t- I can dislike the religion, but I want the fundamental person to be- have that same level of respect that I believe everyone deserves, which is why this conversation is happening in the first place.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It just has disproportionate- Like, criticizing Christianity, versus other religions, in the US, has a disproportionate impact and can’t be treated the same, and that’s what I kind of realized through this religion. So I may continue to criticize them, but I think I’ve done a fair job of, like, I mostly critique Christianity. I- That was one critique that I had against conservative Judaism. I may have misled to make it seem like that was every practice, when I should have been more specific about what they do.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, I don’t know. That’s kind of the balance that I’ve tried to understand or bring to it.

MIKE JOHNSON

There- Is it possible for a redneck and me to say the same thing for different reasons and have that be okay, or am I just automatically a dickbag bigot? Because, you know, I’m not automatic- You just said all the reasons why, but, like-

KYLE GETZ

I think- Yeah. I think- Here’s the thing, I think I can easily slip out something like “Fuck Christians,” or “Fuck Christianity,” and that should be fine, and I need to be careful about anything else. If you just said- If you said something without context, or without- If you just said, like, “I hate Islam,” like, that alone, that’s pretty fucked up. Like, you have to give a little bit more context because someone could very easily take that and run with it, and then start targeting people in the wrong way.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

I think you  have to give more context and information around what you’re saying and be more careful about how you say it. So yes, I don’t think you should say- And, so many times online, you have, like, you hear these dog whistles, and time and time again people say the same thing. Someone just asking “Define a woman,” automatically I know you’re transphobic.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

There is an interesting conversation to be had around “What is a woman?” That’s an interesting conversation to have, that I don’t- 99% of the time someone’s asking online, I don’t think they mean that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. For sure.

KYLE GETZ

And I would love to have that conversation with someone who actually wanted to talk about it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Probably even a trans person, or trans doctor who could talk to us about that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So the same- Like, so you should not make the same statement as that Republican dickbag. Sorry, I changed- [laughing] I changed the whatever you said to “Republican”, because that’s what I heard.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s- Yeah. I mean, yeah. Mostly-

KYLE GETZ

Mostly Republicans.

KYLE GETZ

Mostly Republicans, yeah. One thing that I think is really interesting, that I found watching all of these YouTubers, is, first, how sincerely they seem to believe that it is just- it is true and impenetrable. Like, the Quran and the Muslim faith seem, to me, to be far more organized and unilateral than most of Christianity. A lot of Christianity is like, “Well, it’s all about faith and-” and, you know, there’s so many different sects that you can choose from. As near as I can tell, the differences between different Islamic faiths are very minor compared to, like, Christianity. That’s just what I saw online, which is probably a skewed sample, and I fully am aware of that and would love to learn otherwise. But I heard- I heard lots of variations on “We hate the sin but not the sinner,” and I also think that the Quran is far more definitive than the Bible on- that, like, homosexuality is bad.

KYLE GETZ

Mm. I mean, some Christians would say it’s definitive, so.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. There’s more academic discourse about that in the Christian sphere. I- I’m not an expert.

KYLE GETZ

No, you’re the one that watch this, so, like, I’m just trying to provide the, like, there are similarities in Christianity that that make it not- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

One question I thought was really interesting. Somebody said, “If the World Cup were in England, and a Qatari player wanted to wear an armband that was pro-polygamy, would that be tolerated?”

KYLE GETZ

I mean, I hope so. I’m full- I’m totally fine with polygamy, if you divorce all of the other surrounding meanings, and religion, and everything. Polygamy- Like, I mean- Like, open relationships and like non-monogamy, cool. So I’m fine with polygamy, but then you get the context of culture, and religion, and everything is what makes it weird. Like, people associate it with, like, underage marriage, and, okay that’s because of the Mormon Church. That’s not because of the concept itself, that’s because of Mormonism. Like, so yes, I’d be fine with that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, so, the thing is, this person said this as if it were a slam dunk.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like all you have to do is think about it that way and then you realize that it’s okay for them to hate rainbows. When it didn’t have the impact that he thought it was going to have on me, the listener, because my first thought was, I would hate it, but yes, go for it! Put a fucking swastika on your uniform. I will hate it, and I will think that you are a dickbag, but like, go for it. They- Free speech and freedom of expression is not a value that we share. The fact that they thought, of course we would shut that down and it wouldn’t be okay- I- It would be controversial, people would flip out, but I- It would probably be okay. I don’t know, FIFA might shut it down, though, because pinkwashing. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

‘Cause who knows. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, and then the other thing that I wanted to touch on briefly, is there was a guy who was talking about how, in Islam, if you are tempted to do something, and don’t do it because it is a sin, that equals rewards in heaven. So, from their perspective, it’s actually a blessing to want to bang dudes and not do it. Like, that’s part of the messaging.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, whoever wrote that was deffo gay. [laughs] That’s what all the- Like, that’s what gay people are all- like, closeted gay people are always like, “No, no, everyone can decide, because I chose to be straight. I chose to marry my wife,” and it’s like, nooo, beep, not everyone. You- You just don’t know that you’re just gay and not everyone feels that same feeling.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Right. Right, right, right. But like, add on to- Like, in the Catholic faith, it’s okay to be- it’s okay to have same-sex attraction or to [in a mocking voice] “struggle with same sex attraction,” It’s just not okay to act on it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

This is the same thing. The difference is, in Islam, you will be rewarded in heaven for not doing it.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, but with what? [laughs] What do I get out of it?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like- Like virgins.

KYLE GETZ

Oohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

You get- You get, like, tangible rewards in the afterlife.

KYLE GETZ

Man, I would love to be rewarded with virgins. [Mike chuckles] I don’t think- I- Wait. Hold on. That’s not- I want to have the sluttiest dudes. [laughs] I want them to fuck so many fucking people that they know what they’re doing. The reward isn’t virgins-

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t want to teach them!

KYLE GETZ

I don’t want a new- Like, “Oh, here’s how you do sex good.” No! I want-

MIKE JOHNSON

I want a worn-in, comfortable sweater.

KYLE GETZ

I want a dick that has been inside so many assholes he’s forgot what it feels like to touch air. [both laugh] [Mike sighs] …Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

The brainwashing of that, I find disturbing.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

The idea that “We can affirm that you might be gay, or want to be gay, and fighting it is not just a neutral thing or an expectation, but fighting it is good. Fighting it means after you’re dead you’ll get more awesome shit in the afterlife,” that is so toxic, and I am so against that.

KYLE GETZ

There’s an additional level- Besides just like, “Oh, it’s not bad, it’s actually good that you’re fighting this,” like, that’s an extra level of, like, mindfuck that is adding to it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, “I wish I were gay so I could not fuck dudes, so God would love me more!”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, what’s wrong with you- It just- It’s fucked up, and it’s stupid, and I hate it, and I just- I’m so- I’m disturbed. This whole episode has now disturbed me, and I wish we hadn’t done it. Great.

KYLE GETZ

Great. Alright, well, edit, delete.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s move on. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Well, we’re skipping two weeks in a row, sorry you don’t know that because you never heard this episode. Something that I wanted to read, that I think is valuable-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

So I read there is one out, gay, Qatari.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

His- I mentioned it before, he’s the one that referred the Human Rights Watch to six people to get some of those anonymous stories, Dr. Nasser Mohamed, and he said this, that I think is a useful way to kind of recap this whole thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

But he’s- He’s done a bunch of awesome shit. He’s started an organization- He lives in the US, so- He can’t live there and be out, so he lives in the US, and has come out, and he’s a fucking doctor, which, that’s- he’s a physician, which is amazing. So he’s- he’s the right person to do this and make this change, and he started the Alwan Foundation to advance LGBTQ+ rights across the Gulf region and especially Qatar. If you want to go to alwanfoundation.org, that’s A-L-W-A-N foundation .org. You can donate there. He’s in contact, he says, with hundreds of Qataris, which, that’s far fewer than of course are out. He started the Proud Maroons, which, that’s apparently- Qatar’s national team’s color’s maroon.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

I wouldn’t have known that. But, like, LGBTQ+ supporters of their national football team, which is, like, really cool to be like, “Yo, I’m gay and fuckin’ love this sport.” Like, that’s- He said – about attending these events – he said, like, you know, sometimes we, as trying to be good liberals, are like, “Should I even go to this? What level of support-” He said, quote, “if you’re a diehard soccer fan and you really, really want to go, then you’re not an awful person for going and watching the games. But there are ways to advocate for the cause and push it,” so he’s not just an absolutist, and it seems like a reasonable- He’s done a lot of awesome shit. Anyway. And I’m building up to, the point is: they asked the question in this interview I read, “Isn’t there a risk that the LGBTQ+ outcry is emboldening…” “Emboldening”? Did I say that right? Awesome. Good work. I should’ve done that in my head instead of out loud. [Mike laughs] It’s fine. Emboldening “…Islamophobia?” So, I will just read what he said. “There are, of course, xenophobic and Islamophobic twists to the topic. It’s being used by everybody. It’s being used by the abusers to gaslight people that are trying to advocate to keep them silent. And also there are truly xenophobic and Islamophobic people who are having that confirmation bias moment:…” and “…they’re like, ‘Oh, I knew Islam is shit’ or ‘I knew Arabs are shit,’ which is bringing more hate and is really not helping the situation. I think everybody should participate in human rights conversations, regardless of where they’re from, or what their religion is. Believing that violence and human rights violations [are specific to] any culture or any religion is totally xenophobic and Islamophobic.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Wait, say that last part again.

KYLE GETZ

“Believing that violence and human rights violations [are specific to] any culture or any religion is totally xenophobic and Islamophobic.” What are you having trouble with there?

MIKE JOHNSON

I think I disagree.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Explain.

MIKE JOHNSON

This is the conversation I was trying to have about, like, higher principles. The idea that, like, gay people are okay, leave them alone, I think trumps any religious text, or dogma, or interpretation, or messaging, and I think- I think it’s okay to say specifically Islam hates gay people.

KYLE GETZ

But to believe that Islam as the only religion, and others are good. He said, like, to believe that this country-

MIKE JOHNSON

I do not- I do not believe that they are the only ones.

KYLE GETZ

So I think you’re fine. I think you’re covered.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think many, many, many do.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s the point, to be like, “Oh, it’s just Qatar” or “It’s just Islam” that does this. That’s what he’s saying. To believe that it is specific to any culture or any religion, It is just that culture, just that religion. I think that’s the point he’s making. I think you’re safe in your belief that it is not just Islam that’s the problem. It is not just-

MIKE JOHNSON

Limited to. Limited to, is what I’m not, like, getting. Okay. I’m with you.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know. You can send him an email if you want to argue that wording of that, but I think the point is to be like “Oh, yeah. Oh, Islam, they’re treating people shitty. They’re a shitty religion,” and not look at the shittiness that goes on in all religions, including Christianity.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, that- I think that’s the point. We’re not singling out one for its bad treatment, when other religions get a pass.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Which I don’t think you’re doing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Hey, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Hey, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

Dicks are great.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [both laugh] We’re gonna start our own bible, and that’s gonna be like the first – what the fuck is the stone tablets? – the First Testament or whatever, is going to be “Dicks are great.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

I love it. I mean, kind of end of Bible, right? End of the Gayish Bible? Do we need to keep going? [Mike laughs] I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s do a Gayish Bible next year. That’ll be fun.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I can’t wait. Oh my god. It’s gonna be in every hotel.

MIKE JOHNSON

[both laugh] We can just start printing them and leaving them in nightstands.

KYLE GETZ

Just leaving them-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. We’ll leave them in hourly motels, because honestly that’s our target market. [both laugh] Let’s be honest, they’re more likely to be done with us. Um, something we didn’t talk about, that I wanted to talk to you about over break, because this episode is already, well, fucking long, Is David Beckham.

MIKE JOHNSON

He’s hot.

KYLE GETZ

Known hot person, David Beckham, is a brand ambassador for the fucking World Cup.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, I want to talk more about him and his uh, his gay icon status.

MIKE JOHNSON

See? I want him to sit on my face, but I will not put him on my punch card.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh, you would refuse that ass on your face?

MIKE JOHNSON

I didn’t say that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mike, had- If you’re gonna draw the- You’re gonna draw the line. You can’t let him sit on your face. Or, when he does, you got to make it real bad, like he sits on your face and you go [makes a fart sound], [Mike laughs] like something real bad that’s just, like, makes it horrible. Like, technically you got it on your face but you- but he didn’t feel good about it. We’ll talk about this during the Patreon segment.

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, let’s- You wanna take a break and talk about it?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Let’s take a break.

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Are we ready? Are we good? Are we missing anything?

KYLE GETZ

I think we’re good.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ

We’re going to do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re gonna do Gayest & Straightest, but first, our website is gayishpodcast.com. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

We are on social media, mainly. Our communities are Discord, or the Gayish community on our Facebook group, or Spaces, so join us there.

MIKE JOHNSON

Our hotline – you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails – is 5855-GAYISH. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ

Your voice is getting, just, to the homestretch. Just hang in there, and then it can peter out.

MIKE JOHNSON

Doing great.

KYLE GETZ

Um, our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON

And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.

KYLE GETZ

Uhhh, Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.

KYLE GETZ

I’ll go first.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, do it.

KYLE GETZ

My gayest is: when I washed my jeans I don’t dry them, because someone says that wears them out, so I turn them inside out and then hang dry them. Which, having a specific drying technique for your jeans feels kind of gay to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Okay, so, someone I used to live with taught me that he would just put his- instead of washing them at all, would just put his jeans in the freezer, that that would kill all of the germs so-

KYLE GETZ

And kill the bedbugs?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. So- Yep. And just- And then it was fine.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know that I- Okay. I don’t know that I- Not that I’m too- I mean, I rarely- I mean, who am I to- [Mike laughs] I don’t know. Okay. My straightest. We already mentioned the whiskey drink that you made me, so instead I’ll go with, my straightest is: there are some, just, basic tasks that don’t feel gay or exciting, and they’re just things that you forget that gay people have to do in their lives. I had to like, call insurance about something, I had to call the unemployment line about something. I just do, like, basic boring shit, that you’re like “Being gay is fun, and you fuck all the time,” and it’s like, no, sometimes you have to call insurance and be like “Hi. It’s me. I’m a poor human.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Sometimes you have to get your oil changed. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Sometimes you have to get your oil changed, metaphorically, because I don’t have a car.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Dipstick.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] That’s rude!

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Well, the straightest thing about me this week is so many hot toddies.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They are full-on grandpa-style. [Kyle laughs] Like, it’s just-

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

They are hot and they are whiskey-y, and-

KYLE GETZ

And like, “toddy” is like- Yeah. “Hot toddy” is like- Who says that?

MIKE JOHNSON

It is 85+ year old-style. Okay. And then the gayest thing about me this week was uh, SNL this weekend had a sketch about women who had dated Drake.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And at the end they all held hands and they sang 525,600 Shawties, [Kyle laughs] and I was- like, my gay- I was indignant. I was like, “You can’t ruin that song! You get make Drake banging a bunch of chicks be that, like, that song from Rent! You can’t do that! That songs for us, that is not for you!”

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Okay. I think it was Autostraddle, the website that I found this in, where they call- they said, because of a lyric in the song – I think I even read it on this podcast – they were like “He’s a he/him lesbian,” and I cannot- I can think of literally nothing- It was something like, “Oh, like, you like women? I do too,” or something that he said, like, “Oh yeah, like, I like women. Like, I’m a lesbian,” or something. They were like, he/him lesbians, were like, Drake. I just cannot think of anything else but that with him, and apparently, now, the Rent song.

MIKE JOHNSON

Also he’s hot.

KYLE GETZ

Also he’s hot.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, we have a gayer- We have a…

KYLE GETZ

Do you need me to-

MIKE JOHNSON

…listener’s Gayest & Straightest. Oh my god.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Almost- We’re so fucking close, Mike. I’m so close, I’m so close, I’m so close.

MIKE JOHNSON

In the homestretch now. Stretch me out. [both chuckle]

KYLE GETZ

Um, so this is from our Discord server, and I’m going to read the full thing, which is very Mike of me. The context is: “This last week I was on a work trip to San Antonio for centrifuge training…” What the fuck does that mean? I have no idea, but it sounds very cool. You’re cooler than any of us. “…This is where they teach us”- Thank you. It’s spinning. “…This is where they teach us how to not pass out under high sustained G-forces (up to 7.5Gs) by putting us in a huge centrifuge and spinning us around.” Again, that explains technically, but not, like, are you a fucking astronaut? If so, you’re the coolest listener. Or maybe you just love being spun. Which gay doesn’t? Um, “Straightest: debating with another student the best ways to rope a cow from horseback”. Uh, “Gayest:”-

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Like, mult- I only- I only know of one way, which is to fail. Like- [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Which is to stare at the rope and be like “You’re not doing what I- You’re doing nothing.” Um, “Gayest: barely holding my shit together while the instructors kept spitting out these golden quotes while coaching us on our technique in the centrifuge:” Here are some of those quotes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, are you gonna put on your instructor voice for this?

KYLE GETZ

[speaking like a drill instructor] “Be on the offensive with your butt”!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

“Squeeze your cheeks like you’re going to pick up a cob of corn”!

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God.

KYLE GETZ

“Legs, butts, abs – TIGHT”!

MIKE JOHNSON

Tight!

KYLE GETZ

“(spoken repeatedly as a mantra)” Legs, butt, abs – TIGHT! Legs, butt, abs – TIGHT! [laughs] I’ll say that too. “Get it TIGHT keep them TIGHT”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Get it right! Get it right, get it tight!

KYLE GETZ

So, thank you, Volente1.

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you, Volente1.

KYLE GETZ

That was a- That was a beautiful Gayest & Straightest and I loved it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Is that it?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. [sighs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you to Mohamed.

KYLE GETZ

Sure. Love him.

MIKE JOHNSON

There is one God but Allah, and Mohamed is his prophet.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, let’s post an image of him to show how much we care. [Mike laughs] Um, thank you to Mike’s voice for holding out, and-

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, that’s a strong- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

For some of you, you like this voice better, and I’m gonna have to punch my throat from now on to replicate the experience. We’ll s-

MIKE JOHNSON

They might be into that too, actually.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, you know what? So much you’re all into, I- so excited about it. [Mike laughs] Um, I don’t know. Thank you, um, the uh, this fucking dude who I keep fucking forgetting his name, Dr. Nasser Mohamed; thank you for being out and being awesome. Also, thank you to our Super Gap Bridgers: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Thomas B, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for supporting us in the largest way we offer.

MIKE JOHNSON

Thank you, even though we skipped a week.

KYLE GETZ

Yeahhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we don’t deserve your money, you’re still giving it to us.

KYLE GETZ

We dooo. Give it to uuuusss.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, that’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]

Gayish: 309 Selfies

Are people who take selfies narcissist? Why do gays love selfies? Are we willing to die for selfies?

In this episode: News- 2:35 || Main Topic (Selfies)- 17:11 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:15:35

On the bonus segment, Mike and Kyle learn tips to improve their selfie game, and they take some selfies to see if it worked. Get bonus segments every Friday and other great benefits by joining at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello everyone in the podcast universe, this is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ  

The podcast where life always finds a way… to fuck you over. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Amen to that, brother. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…

KYLE GETZ  

Today we’re talking about selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re talking about selfies!

KYLE GETZ

God, I don’t want to- Do we have to do this episode?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes! Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Yes, I’m excited.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Otherwise…

KYLE GETZ

We would be very quiet.

MIKE JOHNSON

…we would be unemployed. [Kyle laughs] Which, thank you for that episode. I’m not Sarah, everybody.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, yeah! Welcome back. [Mike laughs] You- So far, you’re- This is your test run to decide if we want you to keep cohosting, or, you know, if we’re gonna go a different direction.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well Kyle, I like to think of an interview as me interviewing you, in return. We’re interviewing each other. 

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, dual co-interviews?

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

What if neither of us make the cut? [both laugh] We just leave, we just go home.

MIKE JOHNSON

It can be the Derek show after this, I guess. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Uh, welcome back, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Thanks. Yeah, I’ve been all over the world.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, like, [laughing] literally all over the world.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Do you- Oh, we’re gonna record our Patreon bonus episode soon, so that’s where you can hear our personal news updates, because we do that on the bonus episode every month.

MIKE JOHNSON

Look at you, shilling successfully. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

See? I’m doing good in my interview. I’m nailing my interview. You’re doing… fine. You’re doing- You’re meeting expectations, so far.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s really all I wanted.

KYLE GETZ

Right? [both chuckle]

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, happy Thanksgiving, everybody! If you’re hearing this now, it’s Thanksgiving. If you’re not hearing it now, it’s later. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, that was funny, you got your job. That was good. That’s really useful information that you provided. Umm, yeah. I hope you’re either enjoying your family, or avoiding your family, or you’ve found your chosen family, and that you are-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Wherever you are, or who you’re with, feel bad about colonialism.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeahhh. Let’s feel bad about colonialism together!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Doing it.

KYLE GETZ

And be very full.

MIKE JOHNSON

Doing it right now.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Current- Actively feeling- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

We don’t have any feedback, or corrections.

KYLE GETZ

Well, we surely do in our inbox, but not from our mouths to your ears.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, so, here come-

KYLE GETZ

From a babe’s mouth, to the lips, ears.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Here comes the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so I’ve been- I’ve been out of the country, did I miss anything?

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, God, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

We- We have to- We have- We have to- We have to talk about…

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

We have to talk about Club Q, and it’s gonna be sad. News the first: Club Q.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

More- Yet another- Yet another mass shooting in a queer space in this fucked-up stupid-ass country filled with dickbags.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, yeah- [sighs] Yeah. At least five people were killed, and more than 20 people were injured as a gunman entered the Club Q queer venue and safe space in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And, um, this was Saturday, so just last weekend, and um, [sighs] of course everybody’s having repeat feelings of the Pulse club shooting in Orlando.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, I- [sighs] I don’t- I don’t know- I don’t know what to do, Kyle. I don’t know what to say.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the second- No, I- [chuckles] Like, it’s horrific, and terrible, and clearly clearly motivated by hate. Um-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, it was a MAGA republican’s son or something, that, like- It is so- It’s frustrating because we see the direct connection, we know exactly what’s happening. It’s horrific, and shocking, and terrifying, and also so easy to draw the direct line between what Republicans are saying about us, and the violence against us, but it’s such a helpless feeling. I think that’s part of why, like- I mean, people have already given so many of their takes as it happened, so that’s part of it, but also, like, it’s such a powerless feeling, and what do you say? Like, there’s nothing that makes any of this better, and nothing on an individual level that I can go and do. I mean, the most I can do is try to say something meaningful, but I have nothing meaningful to say. It’s just a helpless, horrible feeling, that you just- I don’t know. You just feel trapped and, like, that’s just what has to happen. Like, it just feels like there’s no way out of this, and it sucks.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, um, [chuckles] it’s really… hopeless… feeling.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I agree. Apparently- Apparently the gunman was subdued by people in the club, and, one of which was a drag queen who apparently, like, stood on him with her heels.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So I’m loving the memes going around about, like, a drag queen could do what dozens and dozens of Uvalde police officers with multimillion-dollar budget couldn’t.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other one was, like, an Army vet that, like, subdued him. So- I mean, that part of it is like, we take care of ourselves, we have to, because other people are not taking care of our community right now. So like, to me, that’s one of the reminders. People are walking- are invading our spaces and making places – everywhere; online, bars, political arenas – like, are making us more and more unsafe every day. And we have to- We have to look out for our community, unfortunately, and- because others won’t.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Um… I dunno, I- I did, like, the only thing I could think of to do. Like, I posted in the Facebook group, and it was just like, “Your existence is an act of resistance.” I think, when you feel helpless, reminding yourself that to whatever degree you’re able to be out or be yourself, like, whatever that means to you, remind- I have to remind myself, like, my existence, my being open about being gay, my being authentic, is part of, like, an action that is resistance. So, it’s not that I’m doing nothing, I am and existing, and existing- or, working to find happiness, working on your own personal happiness, that is also resistance, because that is something they do not want us to have.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So – and, you know – I went to a gay bar last night with a friend, so that was kind of a… I just wanted to be like, “Fuck you. You don’t get to decide where I feel safe, and if I get to go out.” And, I don’t know, that was kinda- took my dog for a walk, that was like my trying to care for myself.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I like that. I went out and got laid.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s resist- [Mike laughs] I mean, fucking is resistance, right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Did you really?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Who?

MIKE JOHNSON

In Buenos Aires.

KYLE GETZ

What’s his- What’s his name?

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m not gonna go into that right now.

KYLE GETZ

Describe his body, [Mike laughs] from the top to the bottom.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well- Okay, first of all, why are we talking about this now? That’s- Anyway. Uh, older. He’s older than me. That’s not a thing I do.

KYLE GETZ  

Oooh, that’s rare!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

See our episode about younger guys with Davey Wavey.

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Is this the right time to be plugging ourselves like this? [laughing] That’s- That’s gross that I just did that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Or- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Or maybe it is. Listen to gay shit, and do gay shit, and feel good about-

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, I think getting fucked is resistance. Oh, I don’t know what you did specifically, but whatever.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was resisting. [laughing]

KYLE GETZ  

As part of consensual BDSM play? [Mike continues laughing] Okay, just wanted to make sure- make- add the consensual part, for- What are we doing? We’re avoiding-

MIKE JOHNSON  

To wrap this horrific story up: I agree with you.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] End of- Great! End of podcast, we don’t need to do any more. Sorry. Okay, what were you actually saying?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Be happy. Do something gay and be happy, because that’s what they hate the most, I think is- is hard to grab on to, but valuable. And, so, let’s try to do a gay-ass podcast and have some laughs or something.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, I mean, is selfies gonna be a fun topic? It’s not gonna be, for me. I forgot that I actually have to talk about this now. But, yeah. Well, yeah, we’ll do some gay shit together.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, great. [both snort] News the second?

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. News the second: So, there were seven European soccer teams that are doing the FIFA World Cup right now, who wanted to wear pro-LGBTQ+ armbands on the field, and uh-

KYLE GETZ  

The fact that you described playing soccer as “doing” soccer- [laughing] Like, just- Like, “they’re doing the FIFA,” or whatever you said.

MIKE JOHNSON  

They’re- Yeah. They’re, you know, they’re doing it.

KYLE GETZ

They’re doing FIFA, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh- But FIFA said “We will give you a yellow card if you do that,” so the European Football Association released a statement that advised players, quote, “not to attempt to wear the armbands in FIFA World Cup games,” and the FIFA officials have said that they have zero tolerance of the One Love campaign, which, those are the armbands that they wanted to wear. They said “ONE LOVE” on them. They have already been used in the past, so Harry Kane, who’s one of the English players, who’s on England’s team, had worn one against Iran. No, I am lying to you. It was the opener against Iran that was the one that they were threatened with being penalized for. A yellow card is used to caution players, and a red card means that they get kicked out of the game. And, uh- So, instead he wore one that says “NO DISCRIMINATION”. Where did my picture of that go? I had a picture of this thing.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s helpful for this audio podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well, he did wear an armband and that one was approved, but instead of being a One Love and rainbows, like, gay shit on it, it’s just black and it says “NO DISCRIMINATION”. And- Which is fine. You’re doing something, and we know, but, you know, apparently your rainbow was too much for FIFA and the host country of Qatar. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I can’t. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

I can’t either, but I’ve been listening a lot to like, how the fuck do you fucking say that country?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it’s- Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s the best I can approximate. Qatar.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I mean, I struggle with people that are even attending this, like, the teams themselves. If all the team said “We are not playing in this,” they would have to change it. Like, they could get together, and they have the power to do something, and they have decided not to. Which, I mean, you worked so hard for something in your life, I’m not trying to diminish the fact that people have worked and that that could risk them not getting to play in this thing that they worked so hard for, but also, it’s real fucked up that they picked a country that doesn’t allow people to be gay and are pretending like that’s us being intolerant.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And have used slave labor to set up the- to build the place. I don’t know too much about that, other than that. But like, it’s just real fucked up, and, I mean, just like a lot of things, like, people have the power if they wanted to, and even wearing an armband is- Like, take the fucking yellow card! I don’t know. I’m frustrated by everything in life, including this.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Enjoy your $8.50 nonalcoholic beers, you fuckers.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I just- Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah, take the yellow card and then behave, maybe, is one way to do that. So, a statement released to Reuters said, quote, “FIFA has been very clear that it will impose sporting sanctions if our captains wear the armbands on the field of play. As national federations, we can’t put our players in a position where they could face sporting sanctions including bookings, so we have asked the captains not to attempt to wear the armbands in FIFA World Cup games.” And, just- Maybe just don’t play at all? I- I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s also just a game, at the end of the day. Like, I know that there’s lots of money wrapped up in professional sports, and blah blah blah, and bliggity blahggity, but, like, fuck.

KYLE GETZ  

It’s a game, and this is our lives.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly. Exactly.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well-

KYLE GETZ

But- I mean, like, the trouble I get into is like, that can be so many things. Like, I shouldn’t buy anything from China then because of the labor that they use to make that is so- Like, I don’t know, they’re- Like, you could- To be- To pay attention to every single issue in the world, and be kind of this model person that follows and doesn’t- Like, it is so difficult because things can be so shitty, and there’s- No one is- When you exist within this system, that, like- How do you participate in this capitalist, systemically racist system in a way that makes you feel good? I don’t know. I get that it’s difficult, but, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s not. I- This is what I go back and forth. Or maybe just don’t fucking play at this, and say fuck you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody! [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Merry fucking Thanksgiving! Eat your fucking turkey!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, Jesus. Pass out already. [Kyle laughs] Okay, news the last.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think- I think It’s a happy story, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

The fact that you’re not sure of it has me worried!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um… Grindr has made its [Kyle laughs] public debut on the New York Stock Exchange, on Friday-

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

-with an opening price of $16.90 a share. It closed at $71.50.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

Apparently- Yeah. The ticker symbol is GRND, and, yeah, apparently people are bullish on us fuckin’. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Great, they have high hopes. Well, I think they have high hopes for spending a bunch of time- Like, you make more money if we spend a bunch of time there and don’t find someone, like, ‘cause then they get to serve their ads more. So, I think they’re bullish on the- the [laughs] hopelessness that is [Mike laughs] searching for dating in the gay world. God, I- I ruined this story that you wanted to be happy.

MIKE JOHNSON

They just- They just know that we can’t quit Grindr.

KYLE GETZ

Mm. Oh, well I can ‘cause I’m not allowed on it. So, they- My hand was forced. My dick was forced.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s right. Well, maybe you should buy some shares then, [laughs] and see if that’ll get you back on the platform.

KYLE GETZ  

Okay, but then, this is another thing where it’s like, okay but if you use Grindr, like, the CEO has- is both gay and has, like, talked about voting Republican, like, and is right wing. Like, wha- So then, do you not use Grindr? It’s like, everything in our lives is- Okay, no. It’s happy! People are buying the stock! Cool! Grindr’s on the market! [Mike laughing] Hook up! I don’t-…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, God. We did it. [both laughing]

KYLE GETZ  

That’s the end of the news.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Successful. Successful. Yeah, uh-

KYLE GETZ

…Ssssspeaking of other people, is that really-

MIKE JOHNSON

No, the other hookup apps that are on the NYSE are Match and Bumble, which I didn’t know until this ‘cause those are for straight people and I don’t read the news about them. But uh, yeah, apparently Grindr had 11 million monthly users last year, and had a revenue growth of 30%, and it’s just- it’s really- it’s really interesting. There are very few stock ticker symbols that are that overtly and openly queer.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, and especially queer sex, like, that like sexual of a company is very interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. And plus, if it’s GRND, like, how many people think it’s “grind,” or, like, “ground,” or, what else could they might- Tatley-Grund, the elevator company? I just- I love the idea of, like, Republicans investing in Grindr not knowing what the ticker symbol means.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s part of a portfolio, [Mike laughs] and they accidentally own, like- They- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Alright, that’s the news!

KYLE GETZ  

Um, speaking of people I’m bullish on, I would like to thank the following Patreon members. Why did- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Why did what happen?

KYLE GETZ

I- I heard myself say it, but like, in a delay, but not really, just in my head. I heard my sentence and I got confused. It’s okay. I’m here. I’m here, and I’m excited, and I’m happy to be here, [Mike laughs] and everything’s wonderful. Thank you to: Beth McColl-

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks, Beth.

KYLE GETZ

Thanks, Beth. Uh, James McQuillen, probably? Uh, josue Daniel Martinez-

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooo!

KYLE GETZ

Whoa! And Ben KyleCan’tPronounceThisName.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Wait, is that what they wrote down?

KYLE GETZ

That’s what they wrote down.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughing] Yes!

KYLE GETZ

All one word. KyleCan’tPronounceThisName. Thanks, Ben!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes, Ben! Ben. Ben. Ben.

KYLE GETZ

Thank you. Join Patreon if you want. Patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do it.

KYLE GETZ

Um, do you want to talk about selfies?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s talk about selfies.

KYLE GETZ  

Do you- I mean-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, first.

KYLE GETZ

First.

MIKE JOHNSON

The reason we did this episode-

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

-I forgot, [Kyle chuckles] until just now.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s because we got a bunch of photographs taken. Which, they came back and they are adorable, and so we’re gonna post some to our socials.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They’re not selfies, they’re photographs, but that got us talking about photographs, and photography, and-

KYLE GETZ

and selfies is kind of gay. Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Selfies is kind of gay, especially if the mirror is dirty and you’ve got no clothes on. But-

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, you- Oh my god, [Mike laughs] a top with no shirt and a dirty mirror is gonna fuck so good.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re right.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Um, they just got, like, shit all over their sink counter, and it’s just like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, not literal shit. That’s-

KYLE GETZ

No, don’t- This is your PSA: don’t poop in your sink. [Mike laughs] Mike, let’s do better. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Who are we?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s be better and do better. This is our first time being in person in a long time.

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s also my fault ‘cause we’re recording on Monday instead of Sunday, because I was a zombie person yesterday after time zone bullshit.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, the time zone bullshit’s still strong, but-

KYLE GETZ  

I don’t know what my excuse is.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, yeah, we- And we’ve done things like- When a magazine interviewed us, they wanted to like, include us, and they were like, “Can you send us photos?” and it was like, “No, we cannot.” [both laugh] Someone actually just asked me for like a hi-res photo of myself, and I was like, I- So now we finally have things. So, that was a very useful thing, that we should’ve had. I feel like – okay, this relates to selfies and just gays in general – I feel like most gays put on this image of themselves. I think most other gay podcasts would have done this kind of thing to – I don’t know – because they want- because they’re a little bit narcissistic, or they want to pretend like they’re amazing, or they want any excuse to take nice photographs. Like, we’re five and a half years in and we’re like, “We should have pictures of us available.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. [both laugh] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, I just feel like that’s part of the thing that I don’t fit, of like, wanting to have pictures of myself, or, like- I don’t know. I just don’t- This is not something I relate to about the gay community.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Well, and then, when our absolutely adorable photographer got here, and, [Kyle chuckles] like, whipped his camera out, both of us were like, “Oh, that’s- I don’t- I don’t like that.”

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, “That’s uncomfortable.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, it’s like-

MIKE JOHNSON

We clearly are bad at this. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Like, “Hey, I’m hot, I’m taking a picture of you,” and you’re like “What? Why?” Like, I don’t know-

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, thank you, to that- I didn’t- I mean- Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

What?

KYLE GETZ

I hated looking at our pictures.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, okay. Well great. [Kyle laughs] I think they’re adorable.

KYLE GETZ  

Sure. You be the judge, listener.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, I will be the judge.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, Mike will be- Mike has judged.

MIKE JOHNSON

They’re adorable.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

I- Okay. Who are we, why are we here?

KYLE GETZ  

You’re doing- You’re probably doing the history.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m gonna talk about the history of selfies, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ

That’s the dumbest sentence I’ve ever heard, [Mike laughs] but go on.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well-

KYLE GETZ

Sarah, where are you? [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so first, I definitely want to calibrate on, what’s a selfie, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

I knew you would! God. Mike, we all know what a selfie is!

MIKE JOHNSON

What is it?

KYLE GETZ

It’s a picture you take yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON  

A picture you take of yourself. Do you have to operate the camera, or just be the- Like, if it’s on a timer, does that count?

KYLE GETZ  

Is this interesting, [laughs] is my big question.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think it is.

KYLE GETZ

If it- You do? Okay. Alright. Sure. Um-

MIKE JOHNSON

If I didn’t think it was interesting I wouldn’t talk about it, Kyle.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, you- You think everything you talk about is interesting?

MIKE JOHNSON  

[chuckles] Yes. Our pictures are fine, and I am amazing. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Huh. Okay. I guess- You know what? Alright. That’s fine. [chuckles] Okay- It is specifically, like, when you are holding the camera in your phone – nope – you’re holding the camera in your hand, and you’re taking a picture yourself. So it’s not, set it down and let me back away, it’s, like, you’re holding the phone in your hand and you’re taking a picture yourself.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Predominantly to post onto social media. That’s what I think of a selfie as.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

What do you think of a selfie as?

MIKE JOHNSON

[sighs]

KYLE GETZ

Wow, that’s too deep a sigh for the definition of the word “selfie”. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, I definitely- I agree with you. Like, the modern definition of the word “selfie” is a smartphone, likely, taking a photograph with it in your hand as the executor. Although, selfie sticks count, even though you’re not touching the device, you’re touching a device that’s touching the device. Anyway. And yeah, that’s largely what the implied meaning is now, or whatever, but we’ve only had the ability to do that for so long, but we’ve been taking pictures of ourselves, like, since the very first day that photographs could be taken it’s been happening. And the guy that is largely given credit for inventing the selfie, [Kyle chuckles] taking a photograph of himself, is a dude named Robert Cornelius.

KYLE GETZ  

[in an old-timey, uptight, British(?) voice] Robert Cornelius!

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yep.

KYLE GETZ

God, he had generational wealth for sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, did he?

KYLE GETZ

I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah?

KYLE GETZ

[doing the voice again] I’m Robert Cornelius, I have a photograph and opinions on the lower class.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, he’s American, so, you can- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[still doing the voice] And he’s- But he still talked like this! [speaking normally] And everyone’s like, “Who are you, Frasier? Like, why do you talk like that?”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Why did he have an accent?

KYLE GETZ

[chuckling] I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nobody knows. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Anyone who’s done like Shakespeare, like, who- Like, people in Star Trek that also have like weird accents that you’re like, “You’re from Missouri. Like, you’re fine,” [Mike laughs] and you know what? I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So, he took the first- he took the selfie in 1839.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

And the reason I think it counts as a selfie-

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

-is there was no timer.

KYLE GETZ

Mhm.

MIKE JOHNSON

He actually had to, like, push the button on the camera, but it wasn’t a button. He made a daguerreotype. He had to, like, operate the camera manually, but it took so long to take pictures he just set the camera up, opened the lens, and then walked in front of the camera, and then had to stand still for – it’s estimated – at least three minutes, but more likely 10 to 15 minutes, perfectly still, to take this selfie.

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. And that’s, like- Even if it’s just three minutes, that’s a long time. To demonstrate how long that feels, we’re gonna be silent for three minutes, [Mike laughs] starting… now!

[6 seconds pass, with hushed laughter]

MIKE JOHNSON

[both laughing] I wager- I’m gonna wager that you think this is more interesting than me talking about anything that I have on my notes here. So.

KYLE GETZ

That’s the- I just realized [Mike laughing] that that’s the meanest insult I’ve ever accidentally done to you, and I’m kind of proud of myself.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m proud of you too. Oh, that’s- that’s great.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] Instead of whatever Mike’s saying. [Mike laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, God.

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, no, no, I’m with you. I’m excited. You seem to be picking up on the timer thing as like a big- an important aspect of selfies, which I don’t think of, like, caring whether there’s a timer or not.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I think that I keep running into the word “selfie” being used to mean any picture in which the owner of the camera is in it, regardless of how it was taken, and it kind of frustrates me, because I’m pedantic and that shit pisses me off.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So people are like, “Let’s take a selfie,” and then they set their phone up, and they put the timer on, and then they hit it, and then they get in a big group photo. That’s not a fucking selfie, it’s a group photo that you took with a timer!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

You whore.

KYLE GETZ  

I- [laughs] Wow. [Mike laughs] But, you can take a selfie with, like, with one other person. Like, how many people before it’s not a selfie?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, okay, okay. This is- I meant to talk about this later.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, sorry. We can- We can go in your order.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, no, no, no.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No. So- So “selfie”-

KYLE GETZ  

3 minutes is up… now! [chuckles] I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Great. Great. Huawei Technologies, which is a company that makes cell phones in China-

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

-actually [chuckles] owns the trademark on the term “groufie”- 

KYLE GETZ  

Ewwww.

MIKE JOHNSON  

-because they were trying to say that any selfie that is of a group of people is a groufie, and they- they trademarked it in 2014. That’s about when the modern use of the word “selfie” was becoming all the rage.

KYLE GETZ

2014? Huh!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah. They say 2012 or 2013 is like the year of the selfie, in terms of, like, it entering the lexicon.

KYLE GETZ

I thought it was before that.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, uh, Huawei- [chuckles] Huawei trademarked the term “groufie” to mean more than just the person taking the picture in it. And another term, that Samsung tried to trademark, was a “wefie”. Like, “We are taking a selfie,” it’s a we-fie. Those are awful and you should not have paid for them, either company.

KYLE GETZ  

Nooo. No. But like, when you’re a big company that has bunch of money, like, I would probably just trademark random shit. I would, like, mash letters like I’m a cat walking over a keyboard, and be like, “Cool. This is what I’m trademarking now, because I’m bored and have tons of money. I’m a corporation.” [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah. They’ve got to park all these domains-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and hope that somebody- somebody named Woodriblahblah [Kyle laughs] becomes really famous someday.

KYLE GETZ  

Ah, he’s my new favorite musical artist, is Woodrbvbahbadah. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Woodriblahblah.com; I own it, bitch. Deal with that.

KYLE GETZ  

Can you imagine the frustration, where you’re like, “No one will have my domain. It’s me, Woodrbabahbadablah”? [both laugh] Um, I had the same question about sex: How many people until it’s a group… or a groufie?

MIKE JOHNSON

Three.

KYLE GETZ

I think it’s four. I don’t think three is a group.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Because we have a name for it, and that’s “a threesome”?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, kind of. But still, I think- That doesn’t feel groupish to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Alright.

KYLE GETZ

I think it has to be four- I’ve said this about the porn one before, if you are looking for group sex and you find three people, like, you’re kind of annoyed, you know?

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Okay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s like, that’s- Wait- No, I- Group. So I think that’s a good measure of, like, what’s a group. I think it has to be four or more.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. Is- Okay.

KYLE GETZ

There’s gonna be a poll on our Instagram about if- [laughs] what constitutes a group.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. How many people do you need to take pictures of a group sex situation?

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] How many times can you say “groufie” before it catches on? [Mike laughs] The limit does not exist.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, no. Stop trying to make fetch happen. [Kyle laughs] Umm… Okay, okay, okay, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, to your point that you just made a little bit ago-

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] I made a point somewhere in there?

MIKE JOHNSON

-the first use of the word selfie in anywhere that we can find was on an Australian Internet forum on 13th of September 2002.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

There’s a guy named Karl Kruszelnicki.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, that’s pretty much what we were saying! [Mike laughs] Like, that’s- Someone named him by mashing the keyboard for sure.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. It was a Polish keyboard, but yes. [Kyle laughs] Um, but he runs the Dr Karl’s Self Serve Science Forum- [TN: Self Service, not Self Serve]

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

-and a dude named Nathan Hope posted to that forum, and said, quote, “Um, drunk at a mates 21st, I tripped…” “…and landed lip first (with front teeth coming a very close second) on a set of steps. I had a hole about 1cm long right through my bottom lip. And sorry about the focus, it was a selfie.” That’s the earliest we can find.

KYLE GETZ  

God, if I invented something as big as the word “selfie”, or I’m the first, like, thing you find, I’d be bragging. Like, that would be in my Twitter bio. I would be, like, bragging about.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, somebody tracked Mr. Hope down – Nathan Hope down – and asked him, and he said “I did not coin the term.” He said, quote, it was “something that was just common slang at the time, used to describe a picture of yourself.” So we don’t actually- Like, nobody invented it. It was enough- It was invented enough that he just threw it out there in this forum post and figured that people would already know what he meant.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Man, good for him, being honest. I- God, I- No, I- I don’t know. I would- I just want…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, if somebody comes to you and says, “Did you make this cultural phenomenon happen? We think you did,” then say “Yes.” [laughing]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Oh, you have proof- You have no proof that anyone else said it before?

MIKE JOHNSON & KYLE GETZ

[in unison] Then yes!

MIKE JOHNSON

I did that! Fuck you, pay me! [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

I was just gonna say, like, I want attention and recognition enough that I would probably say yes to that, but I don’t know if that’s true or if that’s just fake-me talking right now.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay, so, there is- Going back to the history stuff, and then I’ll end the segment. There was a woman in the year… we think it was 1900, we don’t know her name, but it’s a very, very old picture, and she is holding a camera taking a picture of herself via a mirror. And, if you don’t think that dude, the first dude, Cornelius, took the- if you don’t think that counted is a selfie because he walked away from the camera, this bitch was actually holding the camera, pushed the button, picture of herself in a mirror. So we’ve been doing this shit for 122 years or whatever, so.

KYLE GETZ  

We always say that gay culture comes- like, starts with women or something.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Right?

KYLE GETZ

Like, a woman was the first gay man to take a picture [laughs] in the mirror.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughing] Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, there’s a dude named Thomas Eakins who did a bunch of work. It’s controversial whether he was gay or not, but his- a lot of his photography was of naked dudes, and naked dudes doing stuff. He took a whole bunch of selfies in which he was posing with a woman, and that has led to a lot of academic analysis of, like, “Was this dude gay, or not?” and I think it’s interesting. We make this point all the time; nobody seems to be asking the question, “Well, maybe he was bi?” But he took a lot of pictures of naked people, and- including himself. A lot of- A lot of- But that’s the first, like, probably gay naked-selfie-taker that I could find in all of the history of it.

KYLE GETZ

Hm, Interesting. When was that?

MIKE JOHNSON

His name is Thomas Eakins, and his- most of his career was started in the in the 1870s. A lot of the stuff that I’m talking about with the nudity, and the ladies, and stuff, was in 1883, and uh-

KYLE GETZ

1883…

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

That’s a long time ago.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Boy howdy. [Kyle chuckles] [Mike sighs] Well, you know- As long as- Every media form, at least every visual media form, the dicks have led, fairly early on.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Dicks and boobs have been like-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-at the vanguard, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yep. Yep, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ummm, okay. In 1934, a Swedish couple use a wooden stick to take a picture of themselves, [Kyle gasps] and the New York Times called that the original selfie stick.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I-

MIKE JOHNSON

Go ahead.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I say that a selfie stick is a dildo.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s the funniest joke you’ve written.

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

I think about that all the time.

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes. I find you mildly amusing most of the time-

KYLE GETZ

[laughing] At times. Okay, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and that is fucking hilarious. Um- Oh, okay. The OED picked- So, then, all of the stuff that I was saying about this blog, and the invention of the word, it was added to the OED in 2013. It was officially added as a Scrabble word, and that’s how you know you’ve made it-

KYLE GETZ

Wow, even scrabble.

MIKE JOHNSON

-in 2014.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh, it’s been with us ever since. Duck faces, and apparently bear faces, and all. 

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. We just learned about bear- I did not know about “bear face” until Derek informed me today.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I’m gonna have to practice both, I guess, now.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I didn’t know bears had a face.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do photo booths count?

KYLE GETZ

No.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. That- [Kyle laughs] Now we don’t have to talk about Japanese culture in the 90s, or the fact that the Gameboy had a selfie camera on it.

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway-

KYLE GETZ  

Do you count photo booths?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t think so.

KYLE GETZ

It’s just such a specific, different, thing. When I think “selfie”, that’s not what I’m picturing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Right. Yeah. And selfies also are sort of- The modern connotation of the word “selfie” is sort of attached to social media,

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and photos have been around for fucking ever, so I have a hard time thinking that they count because of that.

KYLE GETZ  

Did the word “selfie” run away from us when boomers started hearing about it? Like, I could picture that being something, like, we were using in a specific way, and then boomers hear about something and they’re like, [doing an old person voice] “Oh, look, I took a selfie,” and it’s a photo of their dog or something.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So if you think of a- the success of a selfie as being tied to how it did on Twitter, [Kyle chuckles] the two biggest selfies that caught this wave were: Barack Obama took a selfie and posted it to Twitter the night that he was elected-

KYLE GETZ

Oooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and then Ellen DeGeneres took a selfie with a fuck-ton of celebrities in the background when she hosted the Oscars. So, they’re not quite boomer, right?

KYLE GETZ

Right.

KYLE GETZ

But they’re definitely- they weren’t spring chickens. They weren’t teenagers, Snapchatting around. Like, they-

KYLE GETZ  

They weren’t A-list like Selena Gomez.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So they- [laughs] They sort of- Yeah, selfies, I think, maybe that’s when they jumped the shark. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm, mhm. Hm! Can I tell you some of the gayta?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I want to hear the gayta.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, this is-

MIKE JOHNSON

Are selfies gay?

KYLE GETZ

Are selfies gay? I don’t- [both laugh] That’s an interesting question, Mike, the question I’m gonna answer.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, are selfie-takers narcissistic?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yes. Great segment. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Honestly. Honestly, if we wanted to boil it down. Okay, so I looked up- I’m gonna tell you about some of the studies and some of the journeys that I took along the way to some information. So, I don’t- This is- Thank you for that history, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

I appreciate you, and your segments.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re welcome. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Because now, here, I’m about to do something that’s like, this is interesting to me, and maybe not anyone, [chuckles] so I can’t be too mean. I was just very mean to you about your choices, but I’ve made choices too.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Here’s the thing: they’re gonna continue.

KYLE GETZ  

I know, right? [Mike laughs] For both of us. Um, look, during our segment I drew a fish. Okay! Umm, so-

MIKE JOHNSON

Is it taking a selfie?

KYLE GETZ

It- No, I colored- I don’t know what it is. Or it could be a lady dancing. [gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON  

Is it a Jesus fish?

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yeah. Oh, that’s the other update, I’ve converted.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Umm, studies. This is- Apparently it is, like, a big thing, in the 10s and 20s of this millennia – that sounds weird to say – in this decade and the previous one, people have been doing a lot of research into whether people that take selfies are narcissistic.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And, I learned a little bit about narcissism in general. I didn’t- I was unaware that there are, like, not- There’s a narcissistic personality disorder.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But different than that, just as a personality trait, is narcissism, and that’s what I’m talking about, not the disorder.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, we’re all narcissistic, right? It’s a spectrum. Like, it’s just a- It’s only a problem if it gets past the level of you being an asshole.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I mean, there’s a healthy level of narcissism, of caring about yourself, and like that’s useful. There are two types that are, like, maybe there are a bunch more types, but studies broke down the- typically they were focused on grandiose narcissists, which is the kind that you generally think of.

MIKE JOHNSON

[fake coughs] Trump.

KYLE GETZ

Elon Musk. [Mike chuckles] Um, yep. Things that characterize them: aggression, dominance, superiority, entitlement. These are all the words that definitions would use for that. The other type though that they mentioned, I did not think of this, they’re kind of different venues to narcissism. One is, vulnerable narcissism.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooo.

KYLE GETZ

Also called hypersensitive narcissism, or covert narcissism. It is hypersensitivity to the opinions of others, and intense desire for approval, defensiveness for any kind of critique. There- It’s almost like- It felt, to me, I was like, [doing a nasally voice] “Eugh, I… have this.” [Mike laughs] There’s like a- There’s a self-centeredness to social anxiety that I have, is like “Oh, everyone’s watching me.” There is, like, some level of, like, narcissism. I was like, “No, not everyone is watching you or gives a shit about all the things you do day-to-day.” There’s a weird- It’s weird, because I both have a very low – generally, I’m working on it – low opinion of myself, but also think that everyone cares about me, or is staring at me, or whatever. So I’ve- This is the first time I’ve seen like a definition that is, like- combines those in, like, the way that kind of makes sense to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, sure, okay.

KYLE GETZ

So, this is more focused on the grandiose narcissists.

MIKE JOHNSON

The ones we think of.

KYLE GETZ

The ones you think of, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The study “‘Selfie-ists’ or ‘Narci-selfiers’?:” – wow, that’s a mouthful – “A cross-lagged panel analysis of selfie taking and narcissism”, in 2016, they proposed there was a self-reinforcement effect, and that narcissistic individuals take selfies more frequently over time, and that increase in taking selfies raises their level of narcissism. So it’s this feedback loop that increases both narcissism and the number of selfies that they take.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Another study, called “Narcissism and problematic use of social media: A systematic literature review”, [TN: Proper title is “Narcissism and problematic social media use: A systematic literature review”] in 2020, talked about some of the reasons that social media is good for grandiose narcissists, is they have control over their presentation, so you are, unlike a social interaction, you are in complete control over what you are presenting to people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

You advertise your success, and- You can advertise your success, and you get visible rewards in response.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it’s accessible because so many of us have phones, with the internet, you can do it from wherever. So you can get this kind of validation wherever you are.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

So, generally, like, I’ve looked at a bunch of different studies, and generally, like, yes. The answer is yes, people- when you take selfies it is- people are- People that take selfies are narcissistic.

MIKE JOHNSON  

What surprises me about all of that though is the feedback loop. Like, the fact that it’s not just, like, this is a thing narcissists are drawn to, but that it’s a thing that can make them worse-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

-or maybe make a person who isn’t narcissistic enough to be an asshole, become an asshole.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s- I don’t know. In my head, I have this, like, weird – not weird – I have this belief that, like, people are just fundamentally broken-

KYLE GETZ

[laughs] Oh, God.

MIKE JOHNSON

-and that they don’t really ever change, and, so that smacks up against that a little bit.

KYLE GETZ  

No, social media breaks you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I guess so.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, if you think about if, like, people can-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Wreck me, daddy. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Wreck me, Twitter! Ruin my ego.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[sighs] Oh, God. Is that what you named your hole. [both laugh] Your ego?

KYLE GETZ 

My ego? Wreck me in the ego. There is more to selfies than just narcissism though.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, I looked at a study called “This Is Who I Am: The Selfie as a Personal and Social Identity Marker”, in 2019. It said, quote, “Based on social identity theory, this survey of young adults examined how selfies signify forms of personal and social identity.” So, I didn’t know what social identity theory is. I’m going to take a brief trip to social-identity-theory-land because this is, like- I don’t know why- how, in five and a half years we have not talked about it, because this literally is like the basis of why stereotypes exist.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

This is like the theory and the, like, social constructs that make stereotypes happen. [chuckles] So, an article that gave an overview of this was on Simply Psych-o-logy…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Simply psycho-logy? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

That’s not how you say that word. I was- I needed to read the full word first before I realized which one this was.

MIKE JOHNSON

Take another run at it.

KYLE GETZ

Simplepsychology.org. [TN: it’s simplypsychology.org]

MIKE JOHNSON

Nailed it.

KYLE GETZ

Got it. [both chuckle] I think I’m good.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

I’m not- I’m not broken. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m good. Do I- Do you want to keep doing this, like, in general? [Mike laughs] Do you think this is a good idea?

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Are we a good idea? Okay. [takes a deep breath and slowly releases it] [clears throat] I need to do my warmups again. [hums a partial scale] The portion of an individual- The definition, is the portion of an individual’s self-concept derived from perceived memberships in relevant social groups. This theory was proposed by social psychologists Henri Tajfel and John Turner in the 1970s and 80s. They proposed that stereotyping, meaning putting people into groups and categories, is based on a normal- Stereotypes, we categorize people, as a normal process. We categorize things, that’s how our brains work, that’s how we make sense of the world, so it’s important, it’s a normal process. We have a tendency to group people together in this cognitive process, and in doing so we exaggerate the differences between groups and the similarities between things within the same group, which, that, I mean, I think I’ve been- I feel like recently I’ve particularly been talking about how, like, you- A study finds that someone is more likely to do a thing, and then we’re like, “Oh, everyone does that.” I think that’s- I think that comes from- I think this is in that same realm of overly-assuming that everyone does a thing within a group, overly-assuming similarities.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, that overused saying about “Most stereotypes are grounded in some kind of truth.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yes, yes. And oftentimes, I mean, we do see so many stereotypes that are based on something, some kind of truth.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And there are three stages of the evaluation process. First, the social categorization. That’s the categorization we do to understand ourselves and others, and we start to learn group norms. The second step is social identification. We adopt the identity of the group we are in, we start to act in the way that meets the expectations of the group, we get emotionally invested, it is emotionally significant to us to be a part of that group, and our self-esteem becomes tied to that group. And then social comparison. So we compare our group to other groups, and there’s a desire for our group to remain favorable, to have good- present well, be good, and- because we belong to it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Be good

KYLE GETZ

Be good. [Mike laughs] So, I-

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s exactly what we talk about all the time, right? Like, the things that we did when we were first entering the gay community that we felt like we needed to, because that’s what the gay community was about. Like, there’s another- Like, there’s a feedback loop there as well, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. And it’s- Yes. Yeah. And this is like, oh, this is the, like, this is the theory that is the foundation of exactly what we’re talking about, so I felt like I wanted to include that. Yeah. And I do think that- Exactly. We said, like, I think especially when you come out you don’t feel- Like, being LGBT, like, you- I don’t think you automatically am like, “Cool. I’m in the community,” I feel like when you’re coming out you’re like, “Eugh, I’m allowed- Am I allowed to call myself part of the community, or not?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Like, you don’t- Like, okay, even once you’ve accepted that you’re gay, it feels like another step to get to, like, “Okay, I belong. I feel confident saying I’m in it,” I think that takes some time, and I think that- So that’s the like, social identification, that second step where you start to become a part of the group. And yeah, you’re learning what other people are doing, because it’s a new group that you are- you were not born believing you’re a part of this group. Oftentimes, you know, it’s when you’re older and you don’t know the norms, and, yeah, you start to pick up what other people are doing, and believe that you have to do certain things to be part of it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, yeah, this- Like, we should have an entire- We should have someone smart on, to actually describe the social identity theory, because that’s, like, that’s literally we talk about.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, back to the study.

MIKE JOHNSON

Back to the study.

KYLE GETZ

The study was saying that- it’s part of the reason this came up. It is based on social identity theory that people take selfies to show their personal and social identities. So, some of the actual findings that I thought were fun to share: participants reported they take selfies to say something about who they are, to connect with others, to feel better about themselves, and to feel empowered. That’s what the finding was. There’s like, over 400 people they surveyed, and those were the things that- the reasons why people take selfies. I never feel better about myself when I take a selfie. What do- Do you? I guess we haven’t talked about, like, whether we do this or not. We can. Do you take selfies, often? Do you like them? How do you feel about them?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Not- Not often. Sometimes. I find that I tend to- they go in clusters. Like, I’ll go through a week where like, I take a few, and then I won’t for a really long time. I don’t take a lot of pictures in general, and I don’t know if that’s a Gen X thing or what, but like, traveling around- Like, I just got back from this crazy whirlwind tour of the of the world. All the pictures- Marci took all the pictures, right?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I followed- I followed because you just, on Instagram, reposted her picture. That’s how I, like, figure out what you were doing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s just not my first instinct. It’s just not.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, um- But I’m not- It’s not like I don’t.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

You know, I just don’t very often.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I was- Do you- So, during those phases where do you do take it, do you- what is the reason? Do any of those fit with you, uh, “say something about who they are, connect with others, feel better about themselves, feel empowered,” do any of those those?

MIKE JOHNSON  

[sighs] I mean, usually it’s when I’m feeling good about myself, and I want to share that I feel good about myself with other people.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

You know. And more of those- More of those pictures are- I hesitate to use the word “validation.” I guess that, strictly speaking, it is validation. It’s, “I think I look good, I took a good picture, don’t you think so too, everybody?”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, there’s a reason that, like, you could just take that picture, feel good, and move on and not post it, but then you post it, so clearly there’s something that we’re getting out of that step.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. Right.

KYLE GETZ

But I would- I would imagine you doing it in a more healthy way than most. Like, you don’t depend on that valid- Like, you have healthy self-esteem that, like, you don’t need people to like it. Like, do you feel bad if like, only a few people like a picture?

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, God. [Mike laughs] I wish. Good for you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, I just don’t. Like- And there are people in my life, because of the fraternity, who are younger than you, and, like-

KYLE GETZ  

That’s mean.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ

Don’t remind me people exist that are younger than me.

MIKE JOHNSON  

…Who seem to genuinely experience horrible psychological effects to having things not be as successful as they need them to be when they post them online.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And, like, I worry about them. Like, I worry about it. And- Anyway.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who you’re talking about.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well- [laughs] It’s okay, he doesn’t listen.

KYLE GETZ

So does he- Oh, okay, never mind. It looked at different groups. Again, this is the social identification, or, social identity, theory, so it talked about various groups. Women and LGBTQ people were more likely to report taking selfies to feel empowered. So I thought- Again, I don’t- I don’t usually feel empowered when I take a selfie, but I’m also not everyone. LGBTQ participants were also more likely to use activist and political events as selfie contexts-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

-and to engage in online activism.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

That’s for sure. I mean, we- midterm voting, we just saw a bunch of people, like, I saw someone put the “I Voted” sticker on their ass and take a picture that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Excellent. Excellent!

KYLE GETZ

Like, you know, people definitely use the “I Voted” sticker and selfie as a way to promote voting, and I- I’m so jaded about- and I’m like, “You don’t actually care about voting, you just found a socially acceptable way to put out your selfie. I don’t think you actually-“ I think people are like, [in a mocking voice] “Oh, this is acceptable right now. Cool. Here’s my selfie.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. There’s probably some of both, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They’re probably people who’ve never voted in their life, but they know that this is the week for stickers on your ass. And-

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. Some dude I met, like, once, and am friends with on Facebook – you know, like five years ago or whatever – and I’m still friends with, he posts like a reading list, and every time he does like a shirtless selfie, because he knows that’s gonna get the engagement, and then he talks about like books or something nerdy.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

And so, like, I think people do use- they know that- Especially hot people, you know, that this will help the- like, improve.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We- And this is something that we don’t- This is another part where, like, we don’t fit in with a lot of people. Like, a lot of people would be posting a ton of themselves, and that tends to get- Even our Instagram, if we post a picture of ourselves that gets far more likes than anything else, but we don’t- it’s just not our- I don’t know.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah, because people are stupid. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] Yeah. Um, I just wanted to read this, the last thing that I will say about the study: quote, “the findings indicate that potentially marginalized groups can use selfies to say something about who they are and, in doing so, feel a sense of affirmation, connection, and empowerment. This goes against the perception that taking selfies is a frivolous, narcissistic practice with little meaning or value.” So there’s more- I just- Anytime I see a selfie, I just go right to “narcissistic”, and there’s clearly something to that, but there is more going on there that is not purely negative.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Part of that is, you know, a sense of belonging, a sense of empowerment. You know, I assume for gay people, like, back to that, that like, that’s- as gays do that, take selfies, then that’s the behavior, that’s the norm. You know. So, yeah, there’s more going on with selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, two people can do exactly the same thing, and- for very different, internal reasons, and they’re the only ones that know which is true, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Or I can even do the same thing in two different- at two different times, and one time it’s healthy, and the other time it’s not, right?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I fucking destroyed an entire pizza yesterday, [Kyle laughs] when I got home, and it was intentional, and I didn’t feel bad, and I was hungry and didn’t want to go anywhere. I have no food in the house because I was on vacation. Fast forward, like, six weeks from now, if I destroy an entire pizza I’ll feel awful about myself, and, like, you know, just go in a death spiral of guilt and shame about it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, like, consuming a pizza isn’t immediately indicative of what’s going on, internally.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Some selfies are, and maybe most selfies are, born out of this, like, narcissist thing, but…

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I mean, you are right that I don’t take enough selfies with pizzas.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right?

KYLE GETZ

I think that’s true.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Um, a lot of my life is spent with pizza, [Mike laughs] so I feel like I haven’t adequately demonstrated that online.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Share your love of your life with everyone.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Your dog, and pizza. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

My dog, and pizza; what more do you need in life? I fucking hate how the thing is when it’s someone’s birthday, when someone dies, like, you post a picture of you and the person. It’s like- It’s so- Like, you don’t need to post a picture of yourself when it’s someone else’s birthday. I think I did this, like, last year on your birthday, I just posted a picture of myself and wrote “Happy Birthday, Mike,” because I thought it was really funny. [laughs]

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s fantastic.

KYLE GETZ

Like, I don’t know that anyone- Like, maybe people don’t know- I don’t think anyone else thought it was funny, but I did. [Mike laughs] It’s just like, what the fu- How- That seems so narcissistic to me, to be like, [doing a mocking voice] “Look at me, I’m with you,” and, you know. I dunno.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

I see gays doing that all the time.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m with you. Yeah, that makes sense.

KYLE GETZ

We also need it for our apps, we need updated pictures for the app, so.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s do that.

KYLE GETZ

Do what?

MIKE JOHNSON

Take updated pictures for apps.

KYLE GETZ

Ohh.

MIKE JOHNSON

I owe everybody an app makeover episode! It’s on the list, everybody! We’re gonna make it happen.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I’m- There are some interesting things that we have to talk about for your app makeover episode that-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

It’s on the list.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Are you ready?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re gonna play a game.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I stole this idea.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Ooo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Totally stole this idea from Chris Haigy from the We Read Movies podcast.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, hey Chris.

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s a slightly different variation on it, but it’s a “Wait, Is That For Real?!” is what we’re gonna play.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m going to read you six selfie deaths, and you’re going to tell me which five of them are real and which one of them I made up.

KYLE GETZ  

[quietly] Should- I have- I have information about selfie deaths.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, do you wanna do that first?

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, I’ll do that after.

MIKE JOHNSON

Are you sure?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Uh, and then, I do have stuff on how to take a selfie, and maybe we’ll save that for Patreon.

MIKE JOHNSON

Ooo, yeah. I need help, girl.

KYLE GETZ  

I- Me too! [Mike laughs] Um, Chris Haigy, speaking of selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

…That was the end of my thought.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

He just takes a bunch of ‘em.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, why not?

KYLE GETZ  

I- I mean, you know, it works for him.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Are you ready?

KYLE GETZ

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

MIKE JOHNSON  

One of the six of these is fake, I made it up.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

The others are real.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And then maybe we can talk about, like, the shit people do, like, to get a good selfie.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Yeah, eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Number one, a Polish couple fell to their death off a cliff in Portugal after crossing a safety barrier to take a selfie with their children. Their two children, who were present at the scene, survived-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my-

MIKE JOHNSON

-and watched their parents die. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

You can’t- You’re gonna have to laugh like 80% less during this segment, Mike. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Holy shit. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Number two, two young men died in the Ural Mountains. They pulled a pin from a live hand grenade and took a selfie with it. The phone with the picture is- [laughing] is the only evidence of their deaths that survived.

KYLE GETZ  

Mike, why are you laughing so much?!

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughing] I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

You can’t- [chuckles] I guess ‘cause it’s horrifying, or- I’m trying to give you credit here. That’s- Okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Number three, a 21-year-old man from Yogyakarta fell into the crater of the volcano Mount Merapi while attempting to take a selfie, and died in the volcano.

KYLE GETZ  

It was so hard for you not to laugh during that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Number four, a 63-year-old Bollywood celebrity died when an OR nurse attempted to take a selfie during an abdominal surgery [Kyle gasps] and dropped her phone into his body cavity, causing a severe bleed.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Number five, five intoxicated teenagers lied down in the middle of the road near an airport to take a selfie with a plane landing in the background. It was at night, and a truck driver did not see them and accidentally ran them over, killing two of them. [Kyle gasps] And number six, a Chinese businessman at a local wildlife park in the city of Rongcheng, Shandong province, was drowned by a walrus after taking several selfies and videos with the animal. A zookeeper was- also drowned in the same incident, after attempting to save the man.

KYLE GETZ  

Jesus Christ. If only one of those is fake [Mike laughs] that means the other five are real, so like, that’s too many of those to be real.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, I have two that I’m waffling between.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

One is, [quietly doing a voice] oh! I should take a selfie with waffles. Um, one is, I think you were just on an airplane a bunch, so flying around, so it’d make sense if your invented one was the airplane one, because that’d be connected to what you- The other one is, like, a Seinfeld episode. Like, they- Instead of a Junior Mint it’s a phone though, but like, that- That’s a- Oh, you don’t like Seinfeld, so you don’t watch that, [Mike laughs] so you didn’t- If you made it up you didn’t- You didn’t see Seinfeld to have based that off of. Okay, I’m gonna go the airplane one.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. The fake one was the dropping the phone into the surgery one.

KYLE GETZ  

[gasps] Ah, fuck! Man! [Mike laughs] That means the grenade one was real? That means the kids watched- I should have guessed that one, because I didn’t want that to be real. The kids watched their parents die?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Can you imagine? I can’t. Holy shit.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

That’s traumatic. That’s a trauma, baby.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I have- I have round two. Are you ready for a round two?

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, God. Okay. [Mike chuckles] [sighs] Yes.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, okay, of those first ones, uh-

KYLE GETZ  

The grenade one?!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Don’t pull a- Even if you think it’s fake, don’t. Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, I- There were a whole bunch of them. I found a whole list – right? – and then I culled them down to the ones that I wanted to, like, include in here, and there were lots and lots and lots of them, of people who are obsessed with taking selfies with guns, who then, like, pull the wrong trigger and shoot themselves-

KYLE GETZ

Oh my god.

MIKE JOHNSON

-taking a selfie. I mean, lots.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, anyway.

KYLE GETZ  

I would imagine there’d be a lot of falling to your death ones too.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And a lot of them are falls, yeah, yep, yeah. Okay… A walrus? Like, [Kyle laughs] who takes- Who tries to take selfie with a walrus?! Like-

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, anyone would. That seems like good selfie material.

MIKE JOHNSON

They are terrifying!

KYLE GETZ

I- There are so many where, like, there’s an animal, and I’m like, I would not be- I even saw it- Like, I posted a video, like, there were squirrels right by me in the park recently, and I was like- I think I was nervous they were gonna bite me. I always think everything’s evil and is gonna bite me.

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean-

KYLE GETZ

In a bad way.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Okay, round two. You ready?

KYLE GETZ

Okay, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Number one, in a remote area of Utah the desiccated skeleton of a 26-year-old hiker was found holding a cell phone. Data from the phone was retrieved, and showed the man taking several selfies with a rattlesnake, [Kyle gasps] including a final picture in which the snake bit him on the face. [chuckles] Number two, a 22-year-old student of Kherva[‘s] Ganpat University in Gujarat, India, climbed a glass dome on the third-floor terrace of a building to take a selfie. The fragile glass collapsed, [Kyle gasps] and she plunged 70 feet to the ground floor and was killed. Selfies were subsequently banned at the school.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, number three, police said Taraknath Makal was traveling by train with four friends, all aged between 25 and 30 years. When he reportedly leaned out of the door to take a selfie he lost his footing and fell off the train, so his friends jumped out to save them, but got ran down by another train coming from the opposite direction.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, God. That’s my nightmare.

MIKE JOHNSON  

[chuckles] Number four, in Zagreb, Croatia a 14-year-old boy climbed onto the roof of a train cargo wagon where he wanted to take a selfie, he grabbed a wire and was electrocuted, and his body apparently burned like a torch. Firefighters were unable to take action until the trains power was turned off.

KYLE GETZ

Burned like- Oh, God, a 4-year-old. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, 14. 14.

KYLE GETZ

Number five, five passengers aboard a sightseeing helicopter with its doors off, drowned after a passenger tried to take a shoe selfie – which I had to look up, it’s when you take a- point and take a picture of your feet – tried to take a shoe selfie and fell out, and their safety tether got caught on the emergency fuel shutoff lever, killing the engine to the helicopter which then [laughs] fell into the river.

KYLE GETZ

Ugh, Mike, stop it.

MIKE JOHNSON

And number six, a boat overloaded with 20 people in a reservoir in Central Java capsized when the passengers all suddenly moved to one side of the boat for a selfie- for a group selfie. The boat was being driven by a 13-year-old. Nine of the passengers drowned, including two children.

KYLE GETZ  

Hooo- Okay. I hate the one where the kid lit up like whatever you said, I don’t- I- But, God, that seems too cruel for you to make up. [Mike laughs] That seems mean. I’m gonna go the- You were just in India as well, and so there’s one in India, climbing on a building, I’m gonna say you saw that building or read about that building in India, and so that gave you the idea, so I’m gonna go the India one.

MIKE JOHNSON

There were two in India.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, the glass dome. Oh, what was-

MIKE JOHNSON  

The glass dome one? Okay. Yeah, there’s the glass dome one, and then there’s the jump off the train to save your friend but get run over by a train going the other direction.

KYLE GETZ  

Ohhhh, well then it’s one of these two, because you’re asking for clarification. I’m gonna- Eh. Okay, I’m gonna switch it, I’m gonna pick the different- the other door. I’m gonna go train-jumping-off-of.

MIKE JOHNSON

The Monty Hall problem.

KYLE GETZ

The Monty Hall problem.

MIKE JOHNSON

Except, I am not Monty Hall. It was the rattlesnake one.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

The hiker that got bit in the face by a rattlesnake. That was based on one that actually happened, but it wasn’t a death, it was just an injury.

KYLE GETZ

Eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, the one that really sticks out to me out of all of these is the one of, like, “Okay everybody, get together for a selfie!” on a boat, and the fucking boat tips over because everybody runs- Like, people- You say “selfie,” “group selfie,” people don’t pay attention at all, they just fucking do it.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I just- I- That one is so visceral to me, I could see it happen. I have a fear of boats, and people, groups of people on boats, and groups of people on escalators. Get the fuck out of the way, there are people behind you!

KYLE GETZ  

Ohh. The inability of some people to, like- You must continue forward!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes!

KYLE GETZ

Like, that is a requirement! 

MIKE JOHNSON  

Don’t- Like, and places are designed real bad so that, especially, stupid people- and there’s a lot of fucking stupid people in the world – at airports, that I’ve spent a lot of time in – get to the top of an escalator and immediately stop and look around, like, [doing a dopy voice] “Where am I going?” You fuckers, move! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] The train one is the most- Like, that one- Like, the idea of something coming the other way and, like, hitting you, is like, eugh. I hate being in a car and being between the concrete barrier and a truck. Like, that is like terrifying to me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm, mhm. Yep.

KYLE GETZ

You don’t like- Like, so cruises wouldn’t be up your alley?

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s-

KYLE GETZ

Like, boats and people?

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s just- Yeahhh. I’ve gone on cruises before, and a cruise ship is less like a boat and more like, just like, land that’s not a- that’s away from the shore. [chuckles] You know, because they don’t move-

KYLE GETZ

It’s like land, but just, in the water.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right. It is. Like, they’re just super stable, right? Like, they- They hardly move at all unless there’s like a storm or whatever. But, like, I mean like, a little boat.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Okay, okay. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway, that’s- That’s, uh, wait- “Wait, Is That For Real?!” or whatever Chris Haigy calls it.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughing] Or whatever. Or whatever. Um, thanks. That’s horrifying. Well, I actually found there was a study that was, like, there is no data that has been collected on this, so they collected – they researched – as many as they could find from 2014 to mid-2016 to figure out how-

MIKE JOHNSON

Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

Since you actually looked at this, how many people do you think have died while attempting selfies during that time?

MIKE JOHNSON

400.

KYLE GETZ

Uh, 75, so, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, okay. Great, I’m wrong.

KYLE GETZ  

Um, 75. I was-

MIKE JOHNSON

Nice.

KYLE GETZ

I was wondering- I was wondering why- 75 people have died while attempting selfies, in 52 incidents worldwide, and I was like, “Wait, how is there less?” but that’s because, like, can you imagine one selfie killing multiple people? Eugh.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, or one selfie killing your spouse in front of your children, and you. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Eugh. I mean, I thought about this- or- Like, when Pokémon Go happened and people are, like, not paying attention to-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh my God.

KYLE GETZ

Like, you’re right that there is something, like, you say “Selfie,” and people just kind of ignore everything around you to- The mean age of the victims was 23-

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

-.3, if that matters-

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

-and 82% were male.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That surprises me.

KYLE GETZ

Right?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ  

Because you think of women being the ones that more likely than us – I mean, I think it’s, you know, straight dudes – like, more likely than straight dudes to be taking selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Me too!

KYLE GETZ

But more cautious, maybe?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Dudes are real reckless, and dumb, and are more likely to take pictures with rattlesnakes and walruses.

KYLE GETZ

Or, walri? [Mike laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But yeah, I think of like, in a group of people on vacation together, the one that’s gonna be taking all of the pictures and documenting it is going to be the chicken or 20s, right?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Someone [chuckles] was taking tons of videos at the bachelorette party went to- Oh, I don’t know if- I doubt she- Um, and at one point, like, handed- like, wanted- she wanted to be in one, so she gave me her phone and then was, like, dancing around, and then I was like… I don’t want to- Like, I don’t do this for myself. I don’t want to video these- Like, at some point I just, like, put the phone down, because like, I don’t want to do this.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But, yeah. The most- India’s the most common country, followed by Russia and the US, which is interesting, because you mentioned two from India and we even talked about it. Um, most are falling from a height, drowning, and rail accidents, those are the top three.

MIKE JOHNSON  

The hand grenade was, uh, Russia.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, interesting!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Anyway, go ahead.

KYLE GETZ  

That one- [Mike laughs] That’s not- Well, I don’t know. What’s the selfie- I don’t know. Okay. They did not have enough data to compare selfies versus non-selfie photography. Like, some of these things are not this- Well, I think the act of the selfie, you’re like, you’re distracted, which is different than if you were like setting up a camera. That, I think you’re looking around a little bit more, and you don’t have something in your hand that you’re looking at the picture.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And especially with dudes. And so maybe this is the thing that, like, “Here’s a picture of me I’m taking myself, doing something crazy, ridiculous, dangerous, over-the-top,” whatever, lends itself to, you know, issues.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Whereas, like, when you take a picture of something else, it’s usually not-

KYLE GETZ  

Well, no no, you could, like, set up a camera to take a picture of yourself. Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Well, I guess I don’t- We defined “selfie”, but I don’t know what they defined as non-selfie photography. I was thinking like, you set up a camera and then you all go step back. I guess that stuff doesn’t happen anymore now, because-

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was just thinking about, like, out there taking pictures of lions and one eats you or something. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

There was a guy that got trampled by elephants. He got- He got of the safari vehicle to go take a [laughs] selfie with an elephant, and fuckin’-

KYLE GETZ  

You’re on a safari! Jesus- That’s like, we’re here specifically to see very dangerous animals! That seems like a- Um, one of the reactions to this has been their worldwide initiatives that, like, are creating no-selfie zones. And it said, “a multifactorial approach is required before it gets too late.” That’s ominous. 

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I mean, it’s a little late, and people have already died from this, so I mean, we’ve missed it, but like, I don’t know what- if they think they’re going to be increasing or something. Anyway. Um, that’s- Wow. No selfie is more important than your life.

MIKE JOHNSON  

True that. I mean, some people, I don’t know. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

I wouldn’t mind if Elon Musk took a selfie that endangered his life, but, that’s different thing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Another irrational fear, or, like, thing that I can’t help but react to, is people who are taking selfies, or just regular pictures, who are putting their phone in places where, like, if you drop it it is gone, or it’s gonna fuck up this machine that we’re all on together, or you’re gonna – you know – you’re gonna hit somebody with it at a- You know, “Drop a penny off the Empire State Building it’s gonna go through somebody’s skull,” which it won’t, because that’s a lie, but, anyway, MythBusters busted that one.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, like, people will put their fucking phones in the most like, weird, random, dangerous places. We were in Buenos Aires on Sunday. We toured an awesome graveyard, it was a cemetery that had, like, all of these above-ground crypts that were like family tombs, and some of them had windows, and some of those windows were broken, and one of the people that I was with kept putting his cellphone into the- And I was like, “Girl, if you drop that phone it’s with dead people now, forever.”

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] It’s with the fishes. I- Well also, if there’s broken glasses isn’t that like sticking your hand through- Was that dangerous in and of itself, putting your hand through that?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yes. Yes. I hope you have tetanus shots!

KYLE GETZ

Eugh. Okay, and maybe- Maybe the purpose, if there- Why was this something that interested you enough to talk about? I was gonna- I was gonna come up with purpose for talking about it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Wh- The camera?

KYLE GETZ

No, no, no, selfie deaths.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I dunno. Because-

KYLE GETZ  

Because our podcast needs content?

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well there’s that, Kyle. [Kyle laughs] We get together once a week, and we talk for a while, and then it goes out the door, and we need to say things.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughing] And we need to say things during that time period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

There is something about my total lack of confidence in the human species, that I view them as hopelessly narcissistic, stupid, dangerous. I’m fascinated by it in the same reason that I’m fascinated by Darwin Awards, and, um, it lets me feel superior that I’m not the type of person that those sorts of things would ever happen to, and it sort of justifies my derision for those that would, and I’m not proud of any of that, but that’s definitely part of the equation here.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, like, also that people- This is really important to people, it’s important enough that people- people are risking themselves, and clearly to ill- adverse effects, but like, that’s how extreme people care about selfies and their online – more so, like, the bigger picture, like – more so their online image and what they’re putting out there, whether it’s presenting that “I am interesting, or cool, or in a cool place, or doing something wild,” like, this is very important to people.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s important enough to some people, to take these kinds of risks, and that- I also don’t- I rarely take a selfie. Like, it is so rare that I will post them, and- take them, much less post them. I feel like that’s- I’m very different than most gay people, so this is not important to me, so it is interesting seeing how much people care about- I care about my, like, online presence. Like, I check stuff too much, I do other things that are like harmful, but, taking and posting selfies is not one of those things.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Mhm. [chuckles] So we’re gonna ask all of you to post your selfies. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Well here- Okay. Here’s what I think.

MIKE JOHNSON  

“This thing is fucked up and stupid, and might kill you.” Let’s do it, everybody! [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Let’s do it! Okay. Okay. One of the things that I- I think there are many of us, like me, although I think I’m not the only person that feels uncomfortable with- I mean, we know gay men have issues with their body. Like, I- That’s part of, like, my self-esteem and, like, body- Like, I don’t- Like, that’s the reason why. That’s mostly the reason why. And the idea of taking a bunch of pictures of myself and then looking through them is the worst. I would rather handle a live grenade.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right.

KYLE GETZ

Apparently you can do both at the same time. [Mike chuckles] Well, no you can’t.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

But, I think that I am not alone in that. I think we often see the jacked, gay, cis, white men that are posting pictures, and they get so many rewards for that. They’re- Like, if you have like 10-to-15-thousand Twitter followers I guarantee you it’s because you’re a gay guy that has posted shirtless selfies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

There’s like- There’s like a number of people that you get to- like, you hit when you just do that one thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it’s frustrating, and I hate- This is part of, like, my being annoyed at selfies, is because of all these, like, “Oh, cool, you’re pretty. Good for you. I’m so happy you’re pretty,” like, that- I’m sure that’s wonderful for you. So, that- I want to encourage, no matter who you are, especially if you’re someone like me who doesn’t take selfies or avoids it, like, do that. Like, you’re allowed to do that as well, and you don’t have to look like that to still post yourself, and be okay with that, and be proud of yourself, and- So maybe- I think there is some value in encouraging people do it. Yeah. So- Okay. Post selfies, tag us, we will repost lots of selfies to celebrate the release of this episode, and then you and I are also gonna take a picture. On- Well, on Instagram or Twitter.

MIKE JOHNSON  

But not Twitter, because it’s evil now. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Twitter’s like- This is another thing, if we go back to like, that- our conversation about, like, it’s hard to exist, just go through the world. Like, should I stop using Twitter? Like, I don’t- That’s been my personal main one that I use, and I’m like still there.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Should we park gayishpodcast on Mastodon?

KYLE GETZ  

I- I have not seen good things about Mastodon. I don’t know. I don’t know, Mike.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know either.

KYLE GETZ

Um, Instagram mainly, yeah. Uh, post a selfie, tag us we’ll repost it, and so you can at least get the validation from us that we care about you.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So did we do it?

KYLE GETZ

Uhh, we did something.

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] We took- We took an hour and some change. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

Did we talk enough about, like, gay culture and taking selfies? Is that- Like, was that part clear? And- I don’t know what else there is to talk about then, or us, or we.

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t- I don’t- I don’t either.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Yeah, yeah. We did- We did a thing.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We did it. Let’s-

KYLE GETZ  

Um, let’s learn how to take selfies, because we both need help.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh yeah, during the break for the Patreon segment we’re gonna learn how to take selfies.

KYLE GETZ

Yep, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

Step one, take your shirt off! No- Okay. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Right, yeah. No step two, that’s the best selfie.

MIKE JOHNSON

So should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a breeaaak!

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Alright, are we back?

KYLE GETZ  

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ

We did good at taking selfies of ourselves, based on the tips we learned in the Patreon segment.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love that it got worse as we went along.

KYLE GETZ  

Definitely. Well, the tip about turning your phone around, because it has a better camera, like, that seems like an expert-level move that we’re not to yet. I think handling basic smizing and head tilts are- I think that’s the phase we’re at.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Check it out for yourself by following us on Instagram. We’re not- Well, I guess- That is- That’s- Okay. Hi, everyone! Welcome back to our show!

MIKE JOHNSON  

[laughs] Our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ  

Wait! Just, call to action. Oh, I guess- We’re on social media. Uh, post your selfies to Instagram and Twitter, and – or, maybe just Instagram. Yeah, we’ll push that one, not pushing Twitter – @gayishpodcast, and we’re also on a bunch other places, like Discord, and Facebook Groups, and Spaces.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails. Text us your selfies.

KYLE GETZ

Oh!

MIKE JOHNSON

It’s 585-5-GAYISH, that’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, if you don’t- If you’d prefer not to, or don’t have Instagram, you can text it to us.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

But we will, I don’t know, not- probably not post those. And our- I’m doing- I’m not- I’m not great.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re fine. You’re good.

KYLE GETZ

Gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.

KYLE GETZ

You skipped a week and you kind of forgot that we-

MIKE JOHNSON

I know, yeah. We got some stuff.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, we have stuff? [gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON

Says, “Oh happiest of birthdays, and always remember that you are da bomb. From, Joe in Dallas.”

KYLE GETZ

Aww!

MIKE JOHNSON

Thanks, Joe in Dallas! What’s in here? This is lube? Oh, no, It’s Da Bomb Beyond Insanity hot sauce.

KYLE GETZ  

I was like, if that’s lube it’s bloody. [chuckles] ‘Cause- Wow!

MIKE JOHNSON  

And this is Ass Kickin’ Carolina Reaper salsa. It’s “Kick Ass Hot!” it says.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

And another box.

KYLE GETZ

[gasps] Another box?

MIKE JOHNSON

“We’re Not Really Strangers”?

KYLE GETZ  

“We’re Not Really”- Oh! I think- Someone was like, “Can we send you a game?” and I was like, “Okay.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh!

KYLE GETZ

A sex party game!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, well, let’s not play that one.

KYLE GETZ  

Why not? We’re a sex party podcast!

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

We were nominated for a porn award, Mike. We’re a sex podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s true. And then-

KYLE GETZ

That only talks about sex.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And then Boomer Banks, I heard him talking on another podcast and he was talking shit about Cybersocket. Because he was like-

KYLE GETZ

Really?

MIKE JOHNSON

He’s like, “Apparently I don’t do porn. They don’t know I exist.”

KYLE GETZ  

Ohhhh. I thought you’re gonna say he was talking shit on us, and then I was gonna be excited that he knew who we are.

MIKE JOHNSON

No, no, no. No, no, no.

KYLE GETZ

No, he doesn’t? Aww.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, thanks, Joe in Dallas, and thanks, whoever you are that sent us this game. Probably the makers of the game.

KYLE GETZ

I’ll have to find- “We’re Not Really Strangers”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Maybe we’ll do the quarterly Happy Hour.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, that’d be a fun- Like, have some question ideas.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Maybe we’ll start with a single X though, because, like, you know, you don’t know how comfortable people are doing-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON

Nope, Local Gay Bar Review! This will be a quick one, because- because it’ll be quick, but, uh, I went to JR’s Bar and Grill in Dallas, Texas, which we have talked about on the show before.

KYLE GETZ

Why?

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, because that was the one where I got recognized.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, ooo, wow. Okay, oo.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Be fancy.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, and I don’t remember if I could- I don’t remember what episode it was to go back to listen to it to know if I gave the whole thing, but it was still on my list, so I assume that means I just said I got recognized there and that I would review it later, and now I’m doing that later.

KYLE GETZ  

Hm. Oh, sure. Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I hung out-

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] I like the mysterious notes you’ve left for yourself. I do the same thing, where I’m like, “This meant something at one point.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

“Bird internet.” [both laugh] Okay. Uh, yeah. So it’s a sports bar, it has a lovely outdoor balcony upstairs that reminds me of Boise, the balcony at the bar there, um, when we went.

KYLE GETZ

But it’s a sports bar?

MIKE JOHNSON

And, uh- Yeah. Yeah. Good cocktails. I tried- That’s when I had my first fuckleberry, [Kyle chuckles] which I do believe I talked about on the show last time, because- Also, hung out with Joe in Dallas and, um – DallasCzech from the discord server – and had a lovely old time. Uh, four dildos.

KYLE GETZ  

Nice!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah!

KYLE GETZ

[quietly] Sports bar. Stupid. [both laugh] Uh, Gayest & Straightest?

MIKE JOHNSON

Now let’s do our Gayest & Straightest. I will go first, if you would like me to.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay. So the straightest thing about me this week is: I bought Grindr stock.

KYLE GETZ

You did?

MIKE JOHNSON

I invested in Grindr, which-

KYLE GETZ  

Did you buy it when it was at the bottom?

MIKE JOHNSON

No, I-

KYLE GETZ

And now you’re at the top?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was out of the country. Like- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

But, I did it… on principle. I only bought two shares, it’s like 40 bucks.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] That’s fun.

MIKE JOHNSON

I need to- I need to own that. On principle!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, you’re- You’re contributing. Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, and then the gayest thing about me this week was: going out in Buenos Aires this weekend and, because I don’t know how that country rolls – I do, but, I still worried about it – I had the Uber drop me off at the grocery store near the bar that I wanted to go to.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm.

MIKE JOHNSON

I didn’t type in a gay-ass into the Uber. I was just like… take me somewhere there- nearby there.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Doesn’t that sucked, that like- I was like, thinking about this. We have to look up countries and be like, “Am I gonna die there? Is it illegal for me to be”- like, that sucks.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep, absolutely. How about you, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ  

Um, my gayest is: I found myself, when I couldn’t sleep a couple nights ago, watching the 2012 Madonna halftime show from the Super Bowl.

MIKE JOHNSON

Excellent.

KYLE GETZ

No idea how- You know, there’s just- I was like, watching the Shakira.

MIKE JOHNSON

That was your straightest?

KYLE GETZ

That was my gayest.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, it was still football, so I think- [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

There was- Well, yeah. But I watched no football and just Madonna.

MIKE JOHNSON

Got it.

KYLE GETZ

Um, the straightest: I don’t know why, but I’m watching the second season of the NXIVM documentary, and it just – I don’t know – it just feels like a straight thing. Just, the documentary, there’s nothing gay about it, there’s no- I don’t-

MIKE JOHNSON  

I mean, that dude banged a loooot of those chicks.

KYLE GETZ  

Yep, yep. Yep, yep.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. I dunno. Um, we have a listener’s. This is from Donna Sugars.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Donna Sugars, I heart you.

KYLE GETZ  

I finally did not call you Donna Summers. Hi, Donna. Hope you’re doing well.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, she just- She’s moved back to the East Coast. She bought a house.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

You’re adulting.

DONNA SUGARS [voicemail]

Well hello, darlings. It’s Donna Sugars. I was just calling with my Gayest & Straightest for the week. I just moved into my new home, and the straightest thing I did this week is: I replaced my own toilet! Oh, it was disgusting. Oh, God, [Mike laughs] the straightest thing I ever did, and I licked a vagina once! [Mike laughs] Uh, the gayest thing I did this week: [sighs] I wept openly because I was unpacking my records and my Bette Midler Divine Miss M album has a crack in it! Oh my God, that’s the one she did in the bathhouse with Barry Manilow as her pianist. I- I- I- I’m getting- I get emotional now just thinking about it. [Mike chuckles] So, um, I love you guys! Bye!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh, Donna.

KYLE GETZ  

Those are wonderful. [Mike laughs] Those are perfect gayest and straightests. Breaking your- and tearing up over your Bette Midler [laughs] album, that’s the one of the gayest things I’ve ever heard.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yesss.

KYLE GETZ

Is that it?

MIKE JOHNSON

I guess that’s it.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Send us your selfies, you fuckers.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Why- Why do you feel hesitant? Do you have more to say, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Let it all out.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ve just been gone.

KYLE GETZ

By that I mean poop.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’ve been- Oh, I’m pooping now. [Kyle laughs] I’ve just been gone for a while, so, it’s like, I forgot how to do this. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You’re allowed- [Mike laughs] You’re allowed to take one week off every, like, two, three years I think, roughly? [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep, yep.

KYLE GETZ

Don’t do it again.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, thanks- Thanks for filling in! And thanks- Thanks to thanks to Miss Talk.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

‘Cause she nasty. [both laughing]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Um, and-

MIKE JOHNSON

Wait, no “if you’re nasty”. I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

“if you’re nasty”, yeah. Nah, she’s nasty, that’s fine.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m nasty, somebody’s nasty. [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Someone is nasty, and we’re gonna get to the bottom. Umm, and make sure you listen to her new podcast, Humanists Star Trek-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s Humanist Trek. Um, also-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I’m gonna be on that bitch.

KYLE GETZ

You are?

MIKE JOHNSON

I hope so.

KYLE GETZ  

You should. Um, also, thank you to the following Super Gap Bridgers: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, [laughs] Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, DustySands, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you all for your support.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Thank you for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ  

And I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. Take a selfieee.

MIKE JOHNSON

Click.

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

There’re some fun names that studies use, because of the word “selfie”, like them using that “Selfie-Help”, that was fun, “Selfie Indulgence”, “I Love My Selfie”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh-uh.

KYLE GETZ

The one that took a real swing, “Selfie Harm”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh-uh, uh-uh.

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] That one I was like, “Oh, uhh. Ooo, uhh.”

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]