Gayish | Award-Winning Gay Podcast about Stereotypes
Weekly gay podcast discussing one gay stereotype each episode. Independent & LGBT.
Black eyed peas in the South. Assorted New Years Eve traditions. Traditional marriage. Gayish traditions. Are traditions helpful or harmful?
In this episode: News- 1:17 || Main Topic (Traditions)- 15:37 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:06:00
On the bonus segment, Mike explains how the tradition of Pride was almost on New Year’s Eve instead of June. Get ad-free episodes 1 day early by joining Patreon at any level at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
Yo Saturnalia! Does “X-mas” take the Christ out of Christmas? What do Paganism and Saturnalia have to do with Christmas? Does it harm kids to perpetuate the lie of Santa? We celebrate A Very Special Christmas Episode with Ma Johnson.
In this episode: News- 9:10 || Main Topic (Christmas)- 21:49 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:13:35
As a special holiday gift, all Patreon members will get access to this week’s bonus video (which is normally only for the $10+/mo tiers) where Ma Johnson makes her famous cheesy bread. Support Gayish by joining our Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
More than just a fetish, feet can be used to walk (and other things)!
In this episode: News- 3:57|| Main Topic (Feet)- 15:46 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:09:44
On the bonus Patreon segment, we read the earliest known poem about foot stuff written in like, 5 AD. Support Gayish by joining our Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that’s a top in the streets, and an emotionally devastated depressed bottom in the sheets.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Slash, all the time, everywhere.
KYLE GETZ
Slash, life is sheets.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and-
KYLE GETZ
Your voice is… the way it is, still.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is the way it is. [Kyle laughs] I- It’s- It might be like this forever now, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] New life, new voice, new you, new me.
MIKE JOHNSON
I keep forgetting that I can’t sing though, so I’ll get in the jeep and I’m driving around and then I’ll start, like, singing and I’m like [rasps]. It’s not working.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] You sound like me when I sing regularly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, today we’re gonna talk about feet!
KYLE GETZ
Today we’re gonna talk about feet! Super special, surprise, exciting guest that we have.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Ma Johnson!
MA JOHNSON
Do I know her? [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Who’s she?
MA JOHNSON
Hello.
KYLE GETZ
Welcome! Thanks for being here in the studio with us!
MA JOHNSON
Well, thanks for letting me fly over here.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MA JOHNSON
All expenses paid, first class.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MA JOHNSON
I think the Uber guy wants me. [Ma and Mike laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, I picked you up. [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
Oh. Never mind!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Oh, Jesus.
KYLE GETZ
But first…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah. But first!
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna have a couple episodes, actually, that Ma Johnson’s gonna to be on. So, thanks so much, and you’re welcome.
MA JOHNSON
And you’re welcome.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, 100 words. Okay, here’s the thing. Here’s the thing: I don’t know if I’m permanently like this now. So, just so everyone knows. [Kyle laughs] So, um, we got 100 words, and I wanted to wait and do it when I could do the request, which was that it be dramatically read.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, I had so many ideas for this character. I was, like- I was using the MacCormack method, or whatever. The Kominsky Method? That’s- I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
The Miser technique? [TN: the Meisner technique] I don’t know what these things are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Exac- Me neither.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Okay!
MA JOHNSON
You were just gonna bark.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just gonna- [Mike and Kyle laugh] Yeah, exactly. Anyway, anyway, anyway.
KYLE GETZ
The Reynolds method.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, Kyle’s going to do this one so that we don’t have to wait until I’m better, which might be 2024.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Might be never. 100 words cancelled. Um, yes, I- Like, what I imagined- What we would have done from the beginning, when we planned this, is I am just going to read the 100 words. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, fine.
KYLE GETZ
So this is from… Tim… [fumbles words] Tim. [Mike laughs] Thanks, Tim. “So, like what do you think? Did you think that girl was pretty? How did that girl even get in here? Did you see her? She’s so short and that dress is so tacky. Who wears cheetah? It’s not even summer, why does the DJ keep playing Summertime Sadness? After we go to the bathroom, can we go smoke a cigarette? I really need one. But first, let me take a selfie.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Selfie! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Because people were missing the song #SELFIE [laughs] in our episode about selfies. Thank you, Tim. The one thing I will mention from Tim’s email is that he is- said he might be the only person posting #BeButchBeFabulousBeYou on TikTok
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Which, our marketing department is all of you, and sometimes me when I have the mental motivation, but it’s mostly y’all, so thank you for spreading our hashtag wide and far.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Great. Yeah, yeah. Thanks TikTok.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks- Oh, did you just thank TikTok instead of Tim, the person doing it?
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks TimTok.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks Ti- [laughs] Your one source-
MA JOHNSON
I was just spreading hashbrowns. I didn’t know. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Um, that’s your 100 words. Sorry you got me instead of Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, me too. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We doin’ the news?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Let’s do the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, first, just a really quick update on the continuing story of the Club Q shooting, apparently. we now have more information about the person that, uh- did- did it-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-is the bad guy- bad person here. Apparently they use they/them pronouns, which many people think is just a legal strategy, but we have to go with it, right? Like, that’s the- that’s the way that these things work. So, they are a terrible person. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Uh, anyway, Anderson Lee Aldrich has been charged, but we’re finding out now that apparently the FBI knew that this person was crazy for a long time, and-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-was on their like watch list, and they did nothing about them, so, like…
KYLE GETZ
That’s super frustrating.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, authorities-
KYLE GETZ
I mean, these are, like- If- A million people would be on the watch list based on my criteria, which is if you own more than maybe two guns I would put you there. Which, we can- We have such easy access to guns; that would be so many people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, they were actually arrested June 18th of 2021, on allegations that they were making bomb threats against their family members.
KYLE GETZ
Tshhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it led to 10 homes being evacuated.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my God.
MIKE JOHNSON
And the case was dropped against them, but we don’t know why because Colorado law doesn’t let us know, you know, what the reasoning was. So it might be they were totally not guilty. It could have been like a technicality and they clearly were. Who knows. But they were totally on the FBI’s watch list because of this bomb situation.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then the FBI apparently closed its assessment of the case, and uh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm…
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway. So, for all those people who are like, “We just need the authorities to pay more attention and to do something,” like, they can already, and don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, adding additional authorities to the mix in this is not gonna-
MA JOHNSON
So what is the acronym the FBI stand for?
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ Bitches.
MA JOHNSON
Bitch Idiots. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Maybe? I dunno.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Ah, Fuckin’ Bitch Idiot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, okay. News the first, which is actually also an update, so maybe we’re just doing updates today. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm. It’s Update Corner, brought to you by Jergens.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, there’s a lot going on. I’m worried about how to mash this much news into one episode.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, I dunno. Anyway, news the first: so, Brittney Griner was released from Russian detention. They put her on a plane and she’s back in the arms of her wife, where she belongs, and we apparently could do nothing worse in the eyes of Republicans these days than trade a prisoner. I don’t know. Anyway, I’m- We’ve talked about her a lot on the news, and, uh, she’s- but she’s back.
KYLE GETZ
She’s back! It’s very exciting. I mean, there- You know, there’s obviously a lot of opinions, and there’s shittiness to it too, but sometimes it’s like… can we be happy for a day?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m excited she’s back. That must be – I can’t even imagine – a huge relief for all of her- There are still people that are in- Oh no, I said it. Let’s be happy. I’m not gonna add caveats. So, it’s awesome. Welcome back.
MA JOHNSON
I cleaned all the residue out of my curling iron before I boarded the plane this morning, just in case.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, have you made bomb threats against anyone in your- Yes. [laughing] You’re shaking your head “Yes.” already.
MA JOHNSON
No. No.
MIKE JOHNSON
You use your curling iron to do bong hits? Is that-
MA JOHNSON
Well, it’s like a roach clip thing. [Mike laughs] You know. You’ll see.
KYLE GETZ
Ha, alright. Well.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- Some kind of bomb can be made out of that.
MA JOHNSON
Curling irons?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, come on-
KYLE GETZ
Or like, that’s the trigger something. I heard it in a podcast once, and everything podcasts say are true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. I’ve often said that you’re like the Gayish MacGyver.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] I’ve often said that I’m the Gayish sex-MacGyver.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Oh, okay. I mean, a hole is a goal, I guess. [Kyle laughs, Mike chuckles] Okay, news the second.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know if you’ve been following this at all or not, but an American journalist named Grant Wahl has died [Kyle gasps] in Qatar.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, no, I have not been following this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, uh-
KYLE GETZ
This is kind of like an update too!
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, yeah. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, I didn’t know what order I wanted to say all of this stuff in. So, he is an LGBT ally and was outspoken against the Qatari Government and got turned away because he was wearing a rainbow shirt to the stadium. But he is a- He’s a journalist. He does- He did a lot of work covering the World Cup. He’s not just a rando that’s going, he’s, like, he’s there working as a journalist on the inside. And uh, anyway, he got enough of a notice, again because he was outspoken against the Qatari Government and this rainbow shirt thing. He received numerous death threats-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and stayed in-country covering the World Cup anyway. Then, December 2nd- 6th. 6th. 6 is a different number than 2. On December 6th he posted on social media that he was not feeling well, but that he thought he was on the mend. They gave him some medication and then he said he was- he was feeling quite a bit better. And then, Friday during the Argentina Netherlands match, he, quote, “fell ill.” At least, that’s what the World Cup organization said. And he received immediate medical treatment on-site and then was transferred to Hamad General Hospital and, uh, he- he died. It’s very unclear what he died from, what was wrong. Of course, many people are speculating that he was poisoned somehow, that somebody making those death threats against him made good on that. His brother is on record now as saying that he’s certain that that’s what happened. And he was also straight, so we’ve- we’ve heard from his wife, who said, quote, “I’m so thankful for the support of my husband Grant Wahl’s soccer family and of so many friends who’ve reached out tonight. I’m in complete shock.” Yeah, it’s like, fuckin’ sketchy. Sketchy as fuck.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. The coincidences involved in all of that is- That’s too much to be taken lightly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I concur, captain.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] We talked about David Beckham in the Patreon segment last week, and it just reminds me how big of a shit he is for being their ambassador. He will not- He will face no repercussions, he’s too big of a name to, and someone who’s a journalist is taking bolder action to support LGBT people than he is. Fuck him.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep.
MA JOHNSON
No thanks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck that guy.
MA JOHNSON
No thank you.
KYLE GETZ
Do you follow the World Cup, Ma Johnson?
MA JOHNSON
I do.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
In what way? Like, spiritually-
MA JOHNSON
These cups are my whole world. [Mike and Kyle laughing] These two cups. Planned it.
MIKE JOHNSON
For those of you who are subject to the fact that this is an audio medium, she was pointing to her boobs.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I think- [chuckles] I think- Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
I’m a 34 long.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God. Anyway, it’s a horrible situation, and, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the last.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Have you seen the video of the crying congresswoman?
KYLE GETZ
I’ve heard of it. That’s when I- I can’t watch this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Well, U.S. Representative Vicky Hartzler of Missouri was on the floor of Congress sobbing because Congress was about to pass the legislation that codified rights for interracial and same-sex marriages in this country. [Kyle laughs] She said, quote, “I hope and pray that my colleagues will find the courage to join me in opposing this misguided and this dangerous bill,” and what’s really interesting is then, now getting a whole bunch of play or press, is her nephew.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
That boy gay.
KYLE GETZ
That boy gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
He is her nephew, and is totally, totally calling out; “Today a United States Congresswoman – my aunt Vicky – started crying because gay people like me can get married,” and just reads her to filth on this TikTok, and it is magical.
KYLE GETZ
Family members coming out and speaking up against shitty people, and especially study politicians, is my new favorite thing, because they have so much power in that situation. The cousin of someone, the son of someone, the- You know. They can- They have, like, an in. They can be like, “Nooo, that sucks.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I love it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So he says in the clip, if you can’t find it, “Aunt Vicky, that’s not right. Institutions of faith, like religious universities, are not being silenced. They’re being empowered by the US government to discriminate against tens of thousands of LGBTQ students because of a religious exemption, but they still receive federal funding.” “It’s more like you want the power to force your religious beliefs onto everyone else, and because you don’t have that power you feel like you’re being silenced, but you’re not.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“You’re just gonna have to learn to coexist with all of us, and I’m sure it’s not that hard.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] That’s hilarious. Yeah. I forget who this started with, but someone was wearing a mask that said “silenced” or something, and it’s like, you’re a congress person on the floor of Congress. You are one of the people making legislative decisions. You have the power. You are the person in power.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
If you are standing on that floor as a representative, you are the person in charge and you are not being silenced.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You are literally representing lots of people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s- Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
She needs reverse-conversion therapy.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my God, I love it. Like gay conver- Wait. Conversion, but like, gay-conversion therapy?
MA JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like, “Let’s make you gayer.” [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s so smart.
MA JOHNSON
Or sympathetic, or-
KYLE GETZ
Or, yeah, have-
MA JOHNSON
Just understand. Just-
KYLE GETZ
-emotions, yeah.
MA JOHNSON
-get your head out of your vagina. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Put her in a room full of drag queens until she sobers up.
KYLE GETZ
Cracks. There we go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] I love reverse-conversion therapy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, I saw a follow-up interview with the nephew, Andrew, and he was saying that not only was he put through conversion therapy, he was put through conversion therapy by her friends-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that he has since seen her make public appearances with, the people that put him through conversion therapy.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it’s- it’s really horrible. He’s adorable though. So, anyway. That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news! Hoo! I want to thank the following adorable people are your Patreon members: Michael-
MIKE JOHNSON
This- See, last week-
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
-I had to, like, intervene.
KYLE GETZ
You had to intervene spoon-feed me a transition?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and this time I was gonna say “these conversion therapists,” which, that’s not good.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, no, they converted to being a Patreon member, which is the best kind of conversion therapy!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Michael Reusz. I will pause a moment and say, I looked up the pronunciation of Michael’s last name. The first and only time I’m gonna do that. I just looked at this name and I was like, “That’s too many consonants together,” [laughs] and I don’t know what to do. So, you’re welcome Michael! You got a treatment. I hope that’s- If that’s not how you pronounce your name don’t fucking tell me. And-
MIKE JOHNSON
Or do.
KYLE GETZ
Nope, don’t!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Tell me, and then I’ll tell him.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, tell Mike in private. Uh… And Dustin Haldowan! Sorry, Dust- [Mike coughs loudly]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sorry, Dustin, for fucking up your name.
KYLE GETZ
Sorry, Dustin, for Mike’s outburst, and that I didn’t have more to say about your name. Um, if you want to be a Patreon member, you get monthly momsplainings-
MA JOHNSON
Woohoo!
KYLE GETZ
-and bonus episodes, segments. Join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, do it.
KYLE GETZ
Speaking of Patreon…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we have them to blame for this, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. I am back, baby.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah you are.
KYLE GETZ
We submitted this as our monthly vote, where we- each of us submits topics and our Gap Bridgers get to vote on which topic we are talking about. So that’s why we’re talking about feet. I submitted feet. I have not won in quite some time. I just needed- I just needed this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It was a bit of a gimme. Although, feet has lost in the past. It’s lost many times. It is a longtime loser. So, anyway.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. You believed in it. It was the little feet that could.
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
And here we are.
KYLE GETZ
Run, buddies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Run. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Run, little buddies. You can do it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, you seem very proud of yourself today. You seem chipper, upbeat, ready.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve lost so many times. It’s about time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m always ready.
MA JOHNSON
I voted for vagina. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That was- You know, we thought with the timing it’d be fun to talk about, but you know, now’s not the time for vaginas.
MA JOHNSON
Vaginas are way up on the- So, feet are down at the bottom. [Mike laughs] Go way up the food chain.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true! Well, if we are going- Throat did win the tiebreaker vote, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
MA JOHNSON
[gags] [Mike and Kyle laugh] That was my gagger.
KYLE GETZ
It’s gonna be mostly an episode of that. Anyway, um, in addition to Patreon requesting this, or voting on this topic, we’d also gotten this request from many people, one of which is AlanJay requesting to do feets, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, also in Patreon, Chris Khachatourians commented “I need Ma Johnson’s opinions on chokeslams.”
MA JOHNSON
Oh yeah, baby. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know what that means, or what that has to do with this.
MA JOHNSON
Well, I can define that for you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah? Can you? What’s-
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Define “chokeslams”.
MA JOHNSON
Did you want the news first, and then the history? [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
The history of chokeslams!
MA JOHNSON
And then the- The history of- So, just think about it. Break it down, you know? You’ve got a choker, [Mike laughs] a chokee-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh-huh. And some slammin’.
MA JOHNSON
Slammin’!
KYLE GETZ
That’s- Alright! Love that definition. There you go.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. I just learned about smash, [Mike and Kyle laugh] so I’m like whoa getting my head around that deal.
KYLE GETZ
We’re already learning so much on this episode.
MA JOHNSON
I know!
KYLE GETZ
Anyway, that’s why we’re doing- That’s the history of why we’re talking about this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. Exactly right.
MA JOHNSON
Did I answer the question?
KYLE GETZ
Uh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I dunno, did you? Do you have more to say?
KYLE GETZ
You- You said words in response to the thing I said, which, that’s all that doing this podcast is.
MA JOHNSON
Okay. Okay, good. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s a yes.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Did I answer your question?
MA JOHNSON
Gayish, the podcast that pretends it knows what it’s talking about and definitely, for sure, literally… doesn’t. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, well, so I was gonna talk about the history of feet but that’s- they’ve been around a while.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. Since the birth of the first human, [Mike laughs] feet have played an important role in the mobility of humans.
MIKE JOHNSON
Funny thing, Kyle: more than just humans have feet.
KYLE GETZ
Get out.
MA JOHNSON
Shut up, no!
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s even before that. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] That’s very true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Instead, I’m gonna talk to you about the history of foot fetishes.
KYLE GETZ
I was- As I was preparing I was like, “Okay, we all know that an episode called “feet” is an episode about foot fetish, right?” Like, we just are accepting that that’s the premise of this episode, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Or measurement systems is fine. You know.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. That’s true. That’s true. That’s why we brought your mom in, to add some variety.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Okay. I’m ready though. I’m ready for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, well, so, first we gotta talk about what a foot fetish is.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And there are a lot of different sort of working definitions of what foot fetishism is. This is Wikipedia, quote, “A pronounced sexual interest in feet.”
KYLE GETZ
It’s not a passing interest in feet. Pronounced.
MIKE JOHNSON
“…points of attraction may include the shape and size of feet, feet soles, toes, jewelry ([like] toe rings, anklets, etc.), treatments ([like] massag[e], washing a partner’s feet or painting partner’s toenails), state[s] of dress ([like] barefoot, flip flops, ballet flats, sandals, high heels, hosiery, socked feet, etc.), foot odor or sensory interaction ([like] rubbing the foot, smelling [them], tickling, licking, rubbing genitals on foot, etc.),” and- What happened with the sandals, again? Are you gonna talk about that later?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, oh, no- Oh, I just- I took a picture, because I thought it was funny, when I was at my parents lake house of my feet up on the, like, railing and the lake behind it, and then, you know, was-
MIKE JOHNSON
Spell “railing”.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. [Mike and Kyle laugh] I, you know, posted something like “#Chillaxing” because I’m a cool dude, and someone commented like, “No, don’t do this! Do an episode about foot stuff and you’ll figure out why!” and I think it’s just- I saw this big Reddit thread. I was searching for this. If there’s something that I just didn’t know about this that, like, that’s a big no-no in the foot world or something. And there were just a bunch of Reddit posts that were lamenting people that wore socks with sandals, especially during summer or during times when your feet could be out because it just-
MIKE JOHNSON
Because it covers the feet.
KYLE GETZ
It’s just hiding the good stuff. And then someone else commented and was like, “This is a good time to have both an interest in feet and socks.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, that person wins.
MA JOHNSON
And gray sweatpants.
KYLE GETZ
And gray sweatpants season is a- is a thing in the gay world.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
And not bunions.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] They’re thing in moms world too.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, the reason I wanted to go into all of that though, is I seriously thought about a foot fetish as just being, like, what they look like, like people lusting over your picture, and then, like, interacting with them, either on or about the face or in the mouth.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I had always, in my head, sort of separated out these other things, like socks and shoes. I know that there’re fetishes for those things. I had not, like, put them in the umbrella of, like, feet. Or the smell, like the raunch aspect, the odor stuff, I had never really considered part of it either. But apparently- apparently it is. It’s all interrelated.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. You seem particularly surprised by the interaction with genitals portion of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my God.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, we have some- What? Oh, God, Mom, what are you doing? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Mom is rubbing my feet with her feet. [Ma laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, great. That’s comfortable for everyone.
KYLE GETZ
I have no qualms. [all laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
A great moment for us all.
KYLE GETZ
This is normal.
MA JOHNSON
I just gave you some of my smell. [all laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
My feet thank you. [laughs] Some dude I hook up with next is gonna be like “…and a hint of mom?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my God.
MA JOHNSON
Tasteful moulage.
KYLE GETZ
Tasteful ma-lage. Okay
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We can talk more about our personal stuff later.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’ve never had somebody put their dick on my feet or nor have I put my dick on their feet.
KYLE GETZ
That’s funny, Mike, because recently-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah?
KYLE GETZ
-very recently-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah?
KYLE GETZ
-a dude-
MIKE JOHNSON
We could talk about personal stuff, but here we go. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I- It’s just relevant to this very moment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Like, so I had trouble with the dude this week, that, um- It doesn’t matter. And he’s like, into feet stuff, and I’m always like, “Cool. I don’t know what to do. Like, I don’t get it. Not because I’m trying to shame you, I just don’t know what you want me to do.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Do you want me to like, put my toe in my mouth, or what do you want me to do?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. You can do that.
KYLE GETZ
Seductively. You can?
MIKE JOHNSON
I haven’t tried in a while.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Give it a shot, it’s fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Do it now. [laughs] Um, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I have a bad back, Kyle. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
And he took my feet, and he made a little cup out of it and stuck his dick through the hole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Intercrural.
KYLE GETZ
Like- Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah yeah! So I was like, I didn’t know that was going to happen, totally down, and I was like, “Oh, you can make a hole out of that!”
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Great.
KYLE GETZ
Your feet can become a hole if you work hard at it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Good timing! It’s like that dude planned it. Thanks…
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, dude!
KYLE GETZ
…whatever your name was. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, My- MyFeetMakeAHole32. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Um.
KYLE GETZ
Anyway.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, all of that counts, or is considered like highly related. So much so that, apparently – I know that you do data and I’m sorry that I’m gonna say a gayta thing, but – in a 1994 study, 45% of those with a foot fetish were found to be aroused by smelly socks or feet. [Ma gasps]
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna go ahead and cross that off my list of things I need to talk about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which-
KYLE GETZ
Yes, very connected, which, I mean, makes sense.
MA JOHNSON
Seriously?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, we- Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I’m with you. I’m with you. It makes sense in a weird way that he can’t articulate or understand.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I mean, like, if you like feet, there are things that come along with feet, and it would make sense that you might be more likely to like those things as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yyyeah.
MA JOHNSON
Wouldn’t it be just a general all-around like stinky- ‘Cause if you like butt smell, or like, pussy smell… or like, feet smell…
KYLE GETZ
I sometimes forget that straight people exist, so I didn’t-
MA JOHNSON
If you like barnyard smell…
KYLE GETZ
Barnyard smell.
MA JOHNSON
If you like money smell… Oh yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is really just all those other smells combined, because money is filthy. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Money equals feet plus pussy plus barn. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Weird math, brought to you by Gayish.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s definitely some biological components to what’s happening here, just, the way that it’s been studied, like, there’s some theories about how people’s brains are wired that I’ll go into in just a little bit. But, uh, foot fetishes have been documented for a really long time. There’s a couple of erotic poems called “To a Barefoot Woman” and “To a Barefoot Boy” written by the ancient Greek writer Philostratus.
KYLE GETZ
I legit copied down the poem To a Barefoot Boy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you gonna read it later?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, either now or maybe on the Patreon segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, let’s do later. Let’s do later.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, so we will come back to that. The Hindu God Shiva was aroused by the sight of Parvati’s feet in the 8th century text Skanda Purana.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, it’s a religious thing too?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a religious thing.
KYLE GETZ
Damn, foot fetish; didn’t know that was God incarnate.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Bertold of Regensburg, in 1220, made a reference to, like, being super-duper into feet. It’s just- It’s not a recent thing. A lot of people think it’s a recent thing, and some components of it are recent, and I’ll go into that, but it’s been around a long-ass time, and we’ve been aware of it and writing about it for a long-ass time.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. It’s so funny to me that there’s a poem about, [Mike laughs] like, foot fetish.
MIKE JOHNSON
An ancient- An ancient Greek poem about foot fetishes? Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
For reals. Okay, so, there- It is problematic when you start talking about fetishes because often sometimes people ask the question, “Why or how did that happen?” with “That’s bad and I want to blame something,” and I want to be, like- I want to not yuck anybody’s yum, and I don’t want to cast shame, and I definitely want to talk about the theories of why people are like this.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yea- [chuckles] The phrase “why people are like this” is also-
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Why you people are like this.
KYLE GETZ
No, no, no. I agree. I also am very interested in what makes these things happen. It’s interesting to learn about.
MA JOHNSON
‘Cause it’s my jam. My toe jam.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh…
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Noooo….
MA JOHNSON
You can cut that out. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
So, one of the first people to study fetishes was Freud, Sigmund Freud.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God, I bet we’ve disproven everything he’s said.
MIKE JOHNSON
He believed that fetishes arose during early childhood. There are people that are still into that as a general idea.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. Maybe.
MIKE JOHNSON
He suggested that, when a child saw their mom’s genitals, they were shocked to find that their mother did not have a penis, leading to a fixation on objects or body parts that looked like penises. And in the case of foot fetishes, Freud’s theory states that they occur because a person perceives the foot or toes as a penis substitute.
KYLE GETZ
I had a guy that viewed toes as penis substitutes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah?
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Was that this week?
KYLE GETZ
Boop! [Mike laughs] Just a little “Boop!”
MIKE JOHNSON
Just right- Just right- right in the hole?
KYLE GETZ
Just right up… you know. That’s not true. [laughs] It’s hard to tell, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know who you- I don’t know your life.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t either, sometimes.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean…
KYLE GETZ
Okay, Freud. Everything’s a penis, guys.
MIKE JOHNSON
With Freud, everything’s a penis, and that includes feet apparently, in his, like, view of foot fetishism.
KYLE GETZ
We have the rare opportunity where your mom is right here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
How do y’all feel about Freud’s theories of so much about your mom is based on lack of a penis. [chuckles]
MA JOHNSON
Who is this? [Mike laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Who are you? Why are you here?
MA JOHNSON
Who are you, again?
KYLE GETZ
Are you talking to me?
MA JOHNSON
When did you land?
MA JOHNSON
So, when the baby’s born you count the appendages, right? I think that, because they’re so cute and tiny and cute, I think there is like a fixation from the parent aspect.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, other way a little bit.
MA JOHNSON
Like, cute little tiny feet, little- You know? And then watching the progression of them, you know, grow into walk-hood.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have definitely, like, this-little-piggy-went-to-market-ed an infant baby before and thought to myself, “I wonder if I’m fucking this kid up.” [Kyle laughs]
MA JOHNSON
Exactly. Exactly. Yea, no, you did. You are solely responsible. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Fuck that kid. This-little-piggy-ing- Especially the one that got left behind, or whatever the fuck the story goes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
But, I think that because through history certain parts of- body parts were exposed and not exposed?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
MA JOHNSON
So I think bare feet, feet… Maybe there was some sort of fantasy imagination about “Okay, what’s the rest of that look like?” kind of situation, and then, you know, just narrowmindedness, basically. If you can’t expand your world into upper body parts, you’re stuck at the feet.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow. Bold stance on people that are into feet. Have you thought about the rest of the body? [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MA JOHNSON
Not really. I just- I- You know. I have my moments, but [Ma and Kyle chuckle] I would think more hand fetish appendages than feet.
KYLE GETZ
Oohh, I don’t- Foot fetish is – or interests or whatever – is the top, like, sexual interests.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, um, it’s- But you’re right, hands can do a little bit more, sexually, so that’s interesting that we don’t talk about hand fetishes.
MA JOHNSON
Are there?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, surely if it’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, there are. Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Surely there is, but-
MA JOHNSON
Well I know, but it’s not as kink- ‘Cause today when I was doing my research – haha, for the podcast – um, that foot fetish is a huge- like, up in the number one-ish two-ish isn’t it? As far as kink for straight people, or, you know, whatever. So…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Which is very interesting to me because holy crap-oly [Kyle laughs] there’s a lot going on when you’re walking through the whatever without shoes or with shoes or whatever. There’s a lot of not good stuff that lands down there, so I don’t understand.
KYLE GETZ
That’s part of the thing I didn’t know, and I guess I didn’t research this so I don’t know the answer, is like- And, okay, everyone has different interests. So, you described a lots of different things people can like about feet. I didn’t know- I was like, “Do you want me to wash my feet before we come over? Do you want me to not wash it?” That’s where I just need help on knowing what to do, and-
MA JOHNSON
And Jesus symbolism of washing the feet. Mary, you go girl!
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Jumping well ahead, but there are- there are some safety risks, according to healthline.com, to foot fetish play.
MA JOHNSON
Five second rule! [Kyle laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
And particularly when you don’t, like, clean up first, and- But first, STIs. Some STIs are passed through genital contact, but others can be shared by rubbing skin on skin, and feet have been implicated. Genital and oral herpes, HPV, and syphilis can all be spread through contact with skin and potentially feet, especially because of the moisture involved. Skin infections, molluscum contagiosum is a skin infection that causes lesions or raised bumps, can be shared through skin to skin contact. Impetigo is a highly contagious skin infection. Fungal infections, like athlete’s foot, can also be shared through contact with infected skin or even shoes a person with an infection wore. And cuts, sharp toenails can cut delicate skin around sensitive areas.
KYLE GETZ
Ah.
MA JOHNSON
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Keep toenails trimmed and clean, and ask your partner to do the same if you anticipate getting your feet involved in the action.
MA JOHNSON
And what about pinworms?
KYLE GETZ
What about pinworm- Let’s talk about pinworms. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
They don’t write, they don’t call. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Jesus.
KYLE GETZ
I mean- Okay, all the things you described as, like, skin-to-skin contact though; you’re doing- feet or not, you’re doing a lot of that stuff anyway, so the additional risk of getting your feet involved, it doesn’t seem that high to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m with you. I agree.
KYLE GETZ
So I mean- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think that was also- That particular section was in response to the idea that it’s without risks as a just foot stuff only and nothing else.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, what in life is zero risk though, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
MA JOHNSON
My vagina, apparently, because I’ve got serious atrophy. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, speaking about STIs, there are- there was some research that was done that hypothesizes that foot fetishism increases as a response to epidemics of STIs. And that- It kind of goes back to what you guys were talking about, of like, “Have you considered the whole body?” Sometimes people do consider the whole body, and it is dirty, bad, wrong, disease potential, and so they- those feelings get shifted to the feet because it’s not the rest of the body. So like, a couple of examples: there was a increased interest in feet as sexual objects during the great gonorrhea epidemic of the 12th century in Europe, and then the syphilis epidemics of the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. And in the same study, they found that foot fetish depictions in porn was measured over a 30-year interval, and they noticed an exponential increase during the period of the current AIDS epidemic, and in all of these cases it’s believed that it’s because sexual foot play was viewed as a safe sex alternative. So people tried it and got into it because other kinds of sex were- were not okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. They were like “We can’t do the sex stuff, or that’s riskier, so let’s get our bingo card of other options and, hey, feet seems good.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
But the condom still tastes the same on the foot or on the penis. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
God.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely true.
KYLE GETZ
You need 10 condoms every time. So fucking frustrating.
MIKE JOHNSON
Then I found a thing. I don’t know- I don’t know how it fits in here, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, that’s what he said.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s what he said. Um, there’s another hypothesis about fetishes and foot fetishes, that they occur due to learning that being attracted to feet leads to a reward of some kind.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Research suggests that people can link typically non-erotic objects or body parts to arousal through positive feedback, and even monetary prizes. They- There was a study that took people and they exposed them to fetishized material that they were like, kind of just a little into, and then paid them cash money, and observed that they got even more into it [laughs] over time, which I thought was interesting. Um- What?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t understand. Who’s getting monetary rewards other than the women of wikifeet.com? Like, who’s making money off of feet? Who’s getting rewards?
MIKE JOHNSON
The subjects of the study.
KYLE GETZ
No, I get that. But as a bigger representation, you said people are- might be into it because they’re getting rewards of some kind. What rewards are people getting?
MIKE JOHNSON
Y-Yeah. The other- I mean, it’s always sex, money, or power, right? Like, that’s the-
KYLE GETZ
But they’re not like- No one’s being like, “Oh, you’re into- I’m into feet. You’re into feet? Cool. Here’s 10 bucks and let’s do good sex.” I don’t know. I don’t understand that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I will have to ask these people.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
So the part of the fetish- I’m just thinking, my feet are hideous right now. I would die if someone wanted to look at my feet, even.
KYLE GETZ
Something that people have said about just body type or attractiveness, is people say, especially if someone thinks they are not attractive- Well, you are not your type if you don’t think you’re attractive. Other people- You may be other people’s type. That could be the same thing for feet.
MA JOHNSON
True!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe your feet are not your type.
MA JOHNSON
That’s right.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe your feet are perfect for someone else.
MA JOHNSON
I’m thinking bunion city is where somebody wants to go, all day.
KYLE GETZ
You want to camp out in bunion city? I got a tent for ya. [Mike laughs]
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. Oh yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I will wrap this segment up, of talking about the, like, where we’ve arrived with research and all of that. And, a lot of fetishes have not been studied because they’re not problems. And, so, if it’s fine and not hurting anybody, and everybody’s just having fun, then there’s not a lot of reason to go into it and figure it out. Now, this is an extreme example, but somebody was trying to articulate, like, what does it take for it to be studied? And this paper, it’s called “Sexuality in the 21st century: Leather or rubber? Fetishism explained”. But I loved this paragraph in the abstract; “Fetishism, although not so rare, is often not seen in clinical conditions,” just like we were saying, like, people don’t get treatment for it if it’s fine, “On such occasions, patients are referred to clinics as a referral from the courts consequent to criminal or illegal activity. Cases who are sexually turned on by inanimate objects may fall foul of the law in a number of ways.”
MA JOHNSON
What!?
MIKE JOHNSON
“In the UK, in early October 2015, a man was arrested for having had sex with 450 tractors. According to the news report, he was found to have over 5000 tractor images on his laptop. He had a special desire for John Deere and Massey Ferguson tractors, particularly the green ones. He was into axle grease, which apparently turned him on sexually. He was placed on the Sexual Offenders’ Register.” That is how they then got to study his particular fetish, and-
MA JOHNSON
That’s bullshit!
MIKE JOHNSON
What? What part?
MA JOHNSON
That’s all bullshit. All of it!
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t think a man fucked tractor?
MA JOHNSON
Did he hurt- Did he hurt a tractor? Did he ever hurt a tractor?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I was thinking that. Like-
MA JOHNSON
Did he tarnish the- Did he like… the paint?
KYLE GETZ
Maybe it was like someone else’s tractor, you know?
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, well…
MIKE JOHNSON
I- I think that that’s a great question. The Daily Star headline in the UK was “Perv who romped with 450 TRACTORS caught with 5,000 racy pics of farming vehicles”. I don’t know- But-
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. It could have been the farmers calendar for the, you know.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, they do the firemen, or bodybuilders, or the whatever. He could’ve maybe just thought he would- like, was doing a calendar shoot.
KYLE GETZ
There’s something there that I think, when people talk about there needs to be some kind of issue, they tend to- clearly criminal activity, whether we agree with the underlying cause, is one of those, or when it causes physical harm I think is what people prioritize, which I think diminishes the mental harm that being judged for- A value in studying foot fetish, or fetishes, is to normalize it and say, “Hey, did you know actually a shit ton of people are into feet? You’re not weird. You’re fine.” I think there’s a big mental value to reminding people that you’re just like everyone else, and you’re fine, and whatever. I just think that approach to disorders-
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, but if it’s normal it’s not kinky anymore, so it’s not exciting, right?
KYLE GETZ
Mmm, that’s true. The paradox of kink acceptance.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also…
MA JOHNSON
Dun dun dun.
MIKE JOHNSON
…this is amazing to me.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh?
MIKE JOHNSON
I got that from… it’s a medical journal on PubMed. It’s, uh, the National Library of Medicine, National Center for Biotechnology Information, and they then linked to a article that says that Mom is right; the whole thing was bullshit. It never happened, [Kyle gasps] and yet it made it into this journal.
KYLE GETZ
Wowww.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, yeah, cite your sources, everybody. Check your sources. A man did not fuck those tractors.
MA JOHNSON
He was into horses, not tractors! [Kyle laughs] We know about that guy.
MIKE JOHNSON
But talking about kink shaming, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
That adds fuel to the-
MIKE JOHNSON
But that also is, like, why that story spreads like wildfire, right? Like, why it reaches critical mass where it ends up in an academic journal, because some part of us wants to kink shame him, right? And, anyway, I’m fascinated by the fact that that was-
MA JOHNSON
And we like the red tractors as much as we like the green tractors.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that seems unfair.
MA JOHNSON
That’s horrible.
KYLE GETZ
That’s horrible. That’s offensive. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, talk to me about some gayta, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I have some gayta, and I’m gonna talk to you about it. So, there was a 2018 study called “Tell Me What You Want”, by-
MIKE JOHNSON
What you really, really want?
MA JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, by Sposh Spice.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ll tell you what I want.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and doctor- It was by Dr. Justin Lehmiller, and… Dr. Justin Lehmiller interviewed 4175 people about various fetishes, and here is the data on foot fetishes: 14% of people had a fantasy about feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
14%? Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright.
KYLE GETZ
And 5% have a foot fetish. So the level- You know, that’s a higher level of bar than just a fantasy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I-
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is interesting. I dunno.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, what’s- what’s a fetish, but a fantasy that’s not turned into a hobby? [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MA JOHNSON
And how many podiatrists and pedi and mani people are in that?
KYLE GETZ
I wonder. That-
MA JOHNSON
You know?
KYLE GETZ
That would be almost a dangerous career path if you’re super into that, because you just be like “Ohh, look at this piggies… [makes pig sounds]” [Ma and Mike laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to- I want to fix ‘em! [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
I want to polish them!
KYLE GETZ
“Fetish” has a- I thought you were gonna- “Fetish” has an increased definition for it to be a fetish. It has to be kind of- I don’t- I guess I don’t need to guess. Like, a fantasy is not- Just having a fantasy about a thing does not make it a fetish. A fetish, I think, is more intense, or specific, or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, we do have the breakdown by gender and orientation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, take a guess, men versus women. Sorry, nonbinary people, no one studies you, I can’t do about that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dudes.
MA JOHNSON
Dudes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [chuckles] Yeah, okay.
MA JOHNSON
Totally.
KYLE GETZ
Correct! [Mike and Kyle laugh] Uh, and queer versus non-queer, who has more foot fetish?
MA JOHNSON
Non.
MIKE JOHNSON
Gays.
KYLE GETZ
Non, and gays. Uh, Mike is correct.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s the queers that- Uh, so, 21%.
MIKE JOHNSON
How much of that is the phenomenon we’ve talked about a whole bunch of times, of like, when you’re gay you already have permission to do stuff that’s outside of mainstream, acceptable sex?
KYLE GETZ
I was thinking- Yes. Another thing I was thinking, that I think applies to this – anytime we talked about that scenario – is you’ve also had to do some self-exploration. And so, I think there’s something there as well, is “I’ve reflected on myself, my wants, needs, desires, who I am,” and I think being queer is one of the paths that, unfortunately, you sometimes are forced to do, but I think that could be another thing that helps you understand yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m with you.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, 21- Going from highest to lowest, 21% of gay and bisexual men have ever had a foot fantasy, versus 18% – so, three percentage points lower – of straight men.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that what the Mariah Carey song is about?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I think so.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. [singing] Just a foot, foot fantasy baby.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you for singing, because I can’t.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem.
MA JOHNSON
[singing] All I really want for Christmas- [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[singing] Is your little toes on my dick.
MA JOHNSON
[singing] is your big foot in me. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Big foot in me… Big foot me! Um, and then compared to- For women, 11% of lesbian and bisexual women. So, the difference between gay and straight men is three percentage points.
MIKE JOHNSON
About four beers. [all laugh]
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But then it drops down significantly to 11% of lesbian and bisexual women have had a foot fantasy, and then 5% – so less than half – of heterosexual women. So it is just far less away- a heterosexual woman thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow. You- No argument from you?
MA JOHNSON
Well, unless you tie me up. [all laugh] Then I’ll love whatever you want me to.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MA JOHNSON
Oh yeah, Daddy. Love those toes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God. Okay, we’re done with this segment now. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Let’s keep exploring this. Uh, that’s the gayta!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Do we want to do Ma Johnson’s segment?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Do we?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We- I definitely do.
MA JOHNSON
Doo-da doo-wa. Or do we want to take a break? Because I need a drink. [Ma and Mike laugh]
KYLE GETZ
We can take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Well…
KYLE GETZ
Unofficial.
MIKE JOHNSON
An unofficial break?
KYLE GETZ
It’s just gonna be a quiet…
[Silent audio cut]
KYLE GETZ
Ma Johnson, what do you have for us?
MA JOHNSON
Well, I- It was a big, busy day flying over here. Boy, my arms are tired.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, mhm.
MA JOHNSON
Um, and Michael picked me up at the gate 16 or whatever, and we went- we couldn’t go to Biscuit Bitch, because they were- too much of a line. But we did go to a fabulous restaurant, and the soup of the day was Red Bull and vodka. [Kyle laughs] So yeah. Where did we go, Tito’s?
MIKE JOHNSON
Poquitos. We went to Poquitos.
MA JOHNSON
Poquitos.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Tito’s just the vodka.
MA JOHNSON
Like, little- Little TT’s. Little Poquito TT’s. Um, anyway, so when I got my, you know, unpacking, etc., etc., figured out, I looked up slang words for feet.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MA JOHNSON
In alphabetical order.
KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, sure.
MA JOHNSON
Okay, here’s a good one: “dog meat”.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
“Dog meat”?
MA JOHNSON
“Dog’s meat”, yes.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause the dog is all the way down there, and it-
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhhh, and it’s lickin’ meat!
MA JOHNSON
“My dogs are barkin’!”
KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON
Ohhh.
KYLE GETZ
I was thinking my dog licks my feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was thinking your dog licks your feet.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
And then neighbor, and then you take ‘em both out for- to poop. Um, yeah, it’s like the old rhyming slang in rural America that refers to feet, “My dog’s meat are achin’ so bad, I need more comfortable shoes.” Yeah, “My dogs are barking,” that’s kind of a one.
KYLE GETZ
I heard that one, not the other one.
MA JOHNSON
That’s from Cheers.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MA JOHNSON
“Foot bottom”, ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
MA JOHNSON
I didn’t know that was in there.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was- That was Kyle just last week!
KYLE GETZ
A foot bottom?! Yeah, I guess- I guess-
MA JOHNSON
Jamaica, mon! Oh, a Jamaican slang for soles of the feet. “My mother deserves some spa treatment to help remove the calluses on her foot bottom,” and that’s bullshit. “Footgasm”, now that’s a good one. [Kyle laughs] Uh, my feet make a hole. “A sensation of extreme relief, relaxation, and bliss coming from a good foot rub or massage.” Yeah. “Important”-
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, are you into having your feet rubbed?
MA JOHNSON
You know, I- Ah… Mmm… I will- I will rub feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Kyle, are you?
MA JOHNSON
I mean, I don’t have- But, here’s the thing, you have to have like a volunteer, or an agreeable counterpart right?
KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
But I do enjoy a pedicure, but not for that reason. But just because it’s part of it, I think “Oh, that’s really relaxing and nice,” but…
KYLE GETZ
I like my- I like foot rubs, but also I’m like- My feet, I think, are kind of weird looking, so I don’t know.
MA JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
That’s one of those self-conscious things that I might not do as much as…
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, well…
KYLE GETZ
Do you like your feet rubbed?
MIKE JOHNSON
Like- I also like a pedicure from time to time, but not because of the rubbing of the feet. I just like to get my Fritos shortened every now and then. [Kyle chuckles]
MA JOHNSON
That’s right.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, I like- I like- I don’t know. I don’t know that I’ve ever had, like-
MA JOHNSON
It’s kind of like a, just a person- just a human touch- human skin-to-skin kind of thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. You’ve never had someone rub your feet?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t think so.
MA JOHNSON
Oh yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You- Like, you’re on the couch and you put your feet up, and then you’re like, “Rub them.”
MA JOHNSON
Oh, they’re- It’s great.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, not really. No.
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, true.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I have gotten a massage before, but by the time they get to my feet I’m already asleep.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. I’m- Just, whatever next partner you have, just like, one time just be like, “I’ve never had this.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Great.
KYLE GETZ
“Do my feet.”
MA JOHNSON
And you could do it without protection. You could take your socks off, it’s fine. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
If you want to risk it.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, risk it. Okay, another one: “Hoof” or “hooves”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
And, you know, it’s pretty- pretty straightforward, basic. You’re a horse. Yeah. We’re gonna go to Hopalong Cassidy, which everybody here-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] What?
MA JOHNSON
Hopalong Cassidy. Your way- You’re- Like, your grandparents don’t even remember this dude. It’s an old cowboy character, yada yada, but it’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not Butch Cassidy?
MA JOHNSON
No, no Sundancin’ here, buddy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Alright.
MA JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve never heard this.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, it’s very- Probably silent movies. I don’t know. So, somebody with an injured foot or leg, you know, is a hopalong.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MA JOHNSON
Like, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Got it.
MA JOHNSON
“Las”- Another Mexican one, I think. Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
“Las Patrullas”.
MA JOHNSON
“Patrullas”.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Las Patrullas”.
MA JOHNSON
Lots of Ls with- that are Ys really.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Spanish one.
MA JOHNSON
Um, literally translates to “Officers on the beat”, so they’re talking about Mexican slang for foot, feet legs, but it would be pertinent to, like, an officer on the beat sort of thing.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, like feet on the ground.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I like the idea of calling your toes cops, because you can just walk all over them.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] All toes are bastards.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] All toes are bastards.
MA JOHNSON
“Plates of meat”, Cockney.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah.
MA JOHNSON
[in a Scottish accent] You fuck one goat. Um, rhyming slang for feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know if that is Cockney rhyming slang, but cockney rhyming slang is usually the first part of a phrase that rhymes with the thing that you’re actually talking about, so they would refer to their feet as “plates”, because “plates of meat”, “meat rhymes with “feet” so therefore feet are “plates”. Anyway, go ahead.
MA JOHNSON
It’s a bad day to be in Ireland and smoke crack. I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t- Correct me if I’m wrong, y’all that’s out there, but that’s what I know about Cockney rhyming slang.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, y’all. Here we go. Cock-ney. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Putting the “cock” in “Cockney”.
MA JOHNSON
Cock on the knee in the feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
If it’s down to your knee, call me. [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
[clears throat] Woo-oo! “Popcorn.”
MIKE JOHNSON
“Popcorn.”
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. “A gross reference to” – oh, good – to “thick calluses on the feet that look like popcorn.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Eugh, God.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, interesting.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, then we’re gonna go to “tootsies”. We know that one.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
My favorite movie about a drag queen.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, mhm, mhm.
MA JOHNSON
That’s right. “This slang is used to substitute toes and feet in a common setting.” And “uggies”.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Uggies”.
KYLE GETZ
“Uggies”? That’s mean.
MA JOHNSON
“Australian slang for something that keeps the feet warm,” so UGGs or very expensive boots, whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
So you can say you have uggo uggies?
MA JOHNSON
Ah, ugly uggies!
KYLE GETZ
Ah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Uggos. Yeah. “Wrap-up”, “Hey! Congrats!” Oh, no, that’s the wrap-up.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
That’s all. So there you go. I don’t know how many that really was, but, um, there you go.
KYLE GETZ
Some of those I’ve never heard of.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, me neither.
MA JOHNSON
Me too.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s funny, because we have so many like- Like, how many words are there for dick? There’s like four fucking million of them. Or vaginas, for that matter?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But like-
KYLE GETZ
None of those were as common. Like, that’s not a-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, but feet. Like, I can’t think of, like, anything that you regularly-
MA JOHNSON
“My dogs”.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Dogs”, yeah. “My dogs are barking,” but like, that’s kind of it, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh.
KYLE GETZ
We care less about-
MA JOHNSON
Sapatas?
KYLE GETZ
Sapapas.
MA JOHNSON
“-patas.” Yeah. Alright. So let’s go on to the next segment of-
KYLE GETZ
That you, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I- I-
MA JOHNSON
Where’s my penis definition?
MIKE JOHNSON
We can do this really quickly.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, this- this isn’t- This isn’t gonna be a lengthy segment, but- Uh, reflexology is the idea that foot massage, or, alternatively, hand massage, can specifically help parts of your body in a mapping kind of way.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! Yeah. I always was dubious, like, “Yeah, you press your palm in this one spot, and that’ll make it so your headache goes away,” or “That’ll manifest gloryholes,” or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. Yeah, that is- That is reflexology, yeah. So, it’s the idea that, like, every part of your body has a place on the bottom of your foot that corresponds to it, and that you can restore balance and solve problems in that other area by massaging that proxy area on the bottom of your foot, or, again, on the palm of your hand. It’s- There’s like- Apparently, reflexologist believe that there’s an energy field – or Qi – that is being blocked that can prevent healing, and so then that’s like, you gotta, like, get your Qi going. I don’t know. It’s just- The whole idea is really fascinating to me, because it’s been around for a really long time. It was brought to the United States in 1913 by William Fitzgerald, MD, and he showed that there were a bunch of, like, historical traditions that had elements of reflexology. But he- He’s one of the first came up with this idea that it could have an analgesic effect, or an anesthetic effect, that you could- they could get rid of a headache by squeezing right here or also on the bottom of your foot.
KYLE GETZ
This sounds like a chiropractor, is like, it could sound medical and like it’s real but it’s not actually. This is giving me those vibes, but maybe that’s just because I’m judgy.
MA JOHNSON
So it’s just like a sort of- a, um, acupuncture-ish sort of a-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Although, it amazes me that they fucking pay for acupuncture. Insurance pays for acupuncture.
MA JOHNSON
I love the poke. [chuckles] No.
MIKE JOHNSON
It should be said: there is no convincing scientific evidence-
KYLE GETZ
Okay, there-
MIKE JOHNSON
-that reflexology is effective for any medical care.
KYLE GETZ
There it is.
MA JOHNSON
There it is.
KYLE GETZ
Once you started talking about energy fields or whatever, I was like “Yeah, I think I might be out.”
MA JOHNSON
Quantum bullshit. [All laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I was fascinated with the idea when I was a kid, and mom’s dad actually – Grandpa Bob – gave me a book on reflexology, and for a little period of time there there was a young Mike Johnson that was running around going like “Oh, my throat hurts, I’m gonna rub my” – you know – “sole,” or- I don’t- Anyway. Anyway, that’s reflexology it’s just the whole idea that, like, your feet are magic and you can fix your sinusitis by rubbing your big toe.
MA JOHNSON
That’s why we pick our nose… with our foot. [Kyle laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t think I could. Um, okay, so-
MA JOHNSON
Watch this! Hold my beer!
KYLE GETZ
I have a couple things I have not- There’s was a poem, I have some top sexual fantasy things, but I think what I’m gonna wrap- I’ll do those in Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What I want to wrap it up with is foot tapping. [Ma gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Foot tapping. Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Is that like this? [taps]
KYLE GETZ
Or is that just, like, the phenom-
KYLE GETZ
Nope. It’s the- The phenomenon of what, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Of, like, the moving- Jumping your leg up and down by tapping your foot?
KYLE GETZ
Nooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh! Oh, no, this is how Senator Larry Craig ended up getting kicked out of Congress.
MA JOHNSON
Ohhh, like, in the stalls.
KYLE GETZ
There it is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Better memorize the shoe type when you see him outside the john. [Kyle laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
I, legit, sometimes will sit crooked on a public toilet because I don’t want them to even see my feet and think I’m tapping at them.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. I will tell you the process, so that you don’t accidentally do this. It is not just, you put your foot there and it might be mistaken and now you’re in-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, is this like when you teach your dog when to bark so that it doesn’t bark at other times?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
But you won’t- But also, you won’t- My dog sometimes barks at random things. You will not accidentally do this.
MA JOHNSON
Okay.
MA JOHNSON
Pavlov involved in this tapping?
KYLE GETZ
Well- Pavlov’s foot. [chuckles] That’s a weird fetish. Okay. Most of what I’m about to tell you was from an article on MEL Magazine by Jake Hall, and what we’re talking about is called “tapping”, for those that don’t know. There is a thing where, underneath bathroom stalls, you can tap your feet and do a specific thing to know- to signal to people that you want to, like, get down sexually with them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
And part of the reason-
MIKE JOHNSON
In the stall?
KYLE GETZ
In the stall, through the stall, you know.
MIKE JOHNSON
I always assume that means, like, one of us is gonna put our dick under the thing into the other stall, but like, that’s it? Like a glory hole situation but very low to the ground?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes, but the glory hole is a long stretch [Mike laughs] of open space at the bottom of the thing. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Or there’s also, you can present your ass.
MA JOHNSON
Or you can present your feet that make a hole.
KYLE GETZ
Or- Oh yeah, that’s a risk. Do like a little-
MIKE JOHNSON
Ohh.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MA JOHNSON
Mind blown.
KYLE GETZ
Yea, that you can, like, put your ass out?
MIKE JOHNSON
Dick blown. No, all of this.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, all of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
All of this.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, great-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, first, the journey I went on-
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh?
MIKE JOHNSON
-was first I was like, “Could I get my hole down there? I don’t know. Am I willing to try? Nope, maybe for science?” And then- And then- And then I was like- And then Mom said the thing that she said. I was like “Oh my god, take your socks or shoes off and put your foot vagina under the hole.” Like, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
Ohh. That’s a risk. That’s a “Boy, I hope you’re one of those 10% of people that are into this.”
MIKE JOHNSON
God, the poor custodian, like, just wants to clean the bathroom, and rolls in there like-
KYLE GETZ
I mean, “custodian” is what I call my tongue.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
MA JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
It’s gonna clean that shit up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let us know if you’re into that, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Um… [Ma laughs] Okay, one of the reasons it originated is because gay sex was criminalized, so gay men specifically have to find other places to do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
It- One of the-
MIKE JOHNSON
Just like life in Jurassic Park, gays will find a way.
KYLE GETZ
Gays always find a way, for sure. An early example: in 1964, LBJ’s a Walter Jenkins was arrested for soliciting sex in the men’s room of a Washington YMCA.
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently LBJ had a giant penis and would show people all the time.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, in the White House.
KYLE GETZ
Putting the J in LBJ. Putting the BJ in LBJ? No, never mind. Come back to me.
MA JOHNSON
Marilyn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Derek, look that one up!
MA JOHNSON
Look it up!
MIKE JOHNSON
Am I making that up? Is there a different president?
MA JOHNSON
JF Fuck. K.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think it’s- I think it was LBJ.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Um, so, restroom hotspots are, in the UK, called “cottages”, in the US are called “tea rooms.”
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve heard it called “cottaging” before, and like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that just makes me think of cottage cheese, which I’m-
KYLE GETZ
I don’t love it.
MA JOHNSON
Fromunda. Fromunda, right? Like cottage cheese?
MIKE JOHNSON
Fromunda?
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fromunda cheese? Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I don’t love that name. Okay, [Mike laughs] and here is the process.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Step one.
KYLE GETZ
Step one: gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Cut a hole in a box. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Um, you tend to pick the furthest stall from the door. Some people do this strategic; if it’s an airport they’ll put their bags down kind of in front of the door to block a little bit of the view from other people.
MIKE JOHNSON
A privacy curtain made of luggage, sure. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep, yep. Uh- Us gays are nothing if not resourceful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, you pull your pants and underwear all the way down around your ankles to the ground.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
And you-
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t? [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
Everyday. Hello?
KYLE GETZ
Do you pull your pants all the way down?
MIKE JOHNSON
If I’m gonna shit.
KYLE GETZ
But like, I don’t put them all the way to the ground!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes!
KYLE GETZ
You do!?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes!
KYLE GETZ
Okay, that’s-
MA JOHNSON
Do I?
KYLE GETZ
You’re looking at me like I’m the weird one. You’re the weird one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, weigh in, everybody. Like, I- Yes, I-
KYLE GETZ
Not all- You, like, pull them down enough, like to your legs, but you don’t put them around your ankles.
MIKE JOHNSON
All the way down. All the way down.
KYLE GETZ
Why? What do you need that much leg breathing room for?
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t know my process, Kyle. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t- I didn’t want to, but here we are.
MA JOHNSON
It’s way better than he was little, walk into somebody’s house and just strip naked.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because my- my massive, giant cock and balls is in the way if I don’t have- if I can’t spread my knees apart far enough to make room for them.
KYLE GETZ
O- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And the only way to accomplish that is to put my trousers on the floor.
MA JOHNSON
Unless there’s a Squatty Potty. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Ma Johnson, when you go into a stall do you take your- do you put your pants all the way down around your ankles?
MA JOHNSON
Girls are way hell no different. No.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, so you say no. You- Yeah. Okay, Mike’s the weird one. Cool.
MA JOHNSON
Do you guys put the paper toilet liner-
MIKE JOHNSON
No, that’s the dumbest invention.
KYLE GETZ
Nooo.
MA JOHNSON
That’s bullshit, isn’t it?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I just, like, give it a little wipe usually.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, I know.
KYLE GETZ
We’re not talking about that, even though Mike’s weird and all.
MA JOHNSON
Don’t cover up your shoes with your pants and underpants, right?
KYLE GETZ
Well, you need- Your- You need your shoe or foot to be free, because the next step is put it a little bit over so the other person can see, and tap. You start slowly. The other person will tap, and they’ll- you’ll go-
MIKE JOHNSON
Tap once? Tap, like, SOS? Tap-
MA JOHNSON
Like [taps].
KYLE GETZ
Um. There is this theory that historians – gay historians – have not validated, or, in this article they were like “I asked three people, and these gay historians have never heard this, but, you know, some things are lost a time,” blah, blah, blah. But anyway, one theory was you tap 4-2-9, which spells “gay” if you’re hitting it on a phone pad.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nobody can count to nine in a public bathroom. [Kyle laughs]
MA JOHNSON
What? Morse code. No. No.
KYLE GETZ
If you’re in a public bathroom you can’t count to nine. That’s too much for you, you got poop on the brain. Um, so, then, after the-
MIKE JOHNSON
Must be poop on the brain.
KYLE GETZ
I was thinking that, and didn’t do it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, good. Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, then you graze your feet.
MA JOHNSON
What’s a graze? What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, rub them together like you’re a cricket? [Ma gasps and makes cricket sound]
KYLE GETZ
But like, I don’t think you go like [makes a rambunctious cricket sound]. I think you- Because all of this is- You gotta make it seem like it could be innocent. So you’re gonna graze first. You’re gonna pass it by.
MA JOHNSON
I wanna see you do a video of this one.
KYLE GETZ
I wanna see me do a video of this.
MA JOHNSON
I know, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Rub your feet together, but make it sexy, but make it casual.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
No, no, no, not- Don’t rub your own feet together. You’re grazing their foot.
MIKE JOHNSON
See? I’m glad we clarified. I would have been, like, [laughing] rubbing my feet together like a weirdo.
KYLE GETZ
Mike, you’re just like- [Ma makes a cricket sound] Well, you can’t because your pants around your ankles. You don’t have the foot dexterity because you got rubber bands around your-
MIKE JOHNSON
Just to spite you, I’m gonna take everything off and hang them up on the hook. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know why I’m so angry- I don’t know why I’m so angry at this.
KYLE GETZ
Then you wave your hand under the stall.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
Some people, when they do this, will ensure their wedding ring is visible.
MA JOHNSON
Is there a white flag on that, like a toilet paper? Waving that shit?
KYLE GETZ
I surrender to our sexuality.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
Then- So, all of this is to- So, like, many of these steps-
MIKE JOHNSON
Why is that step necessary if you’ve gotten to the “we’re playing footsie”, isn’t, like, we’re already clear what’s happening?
KYLE GETZ
All of this is “Let me be sure that I know it’s happening, in a plausible deniability kind of way.” So, if I graze your foot, that could have been an accident.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, it could not have! But go ahead. Go ahead.
MA JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes it could! I could move my foot and it accidentally touches-
MA JOHNSON
You know what is not an accident?
KYLE GETZ
What?
MA JOHNSON
You kick into Adele. [singing] Hello, this is me. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
If you sing that from your stall you definitely want to get fucked. [all laugh]
MA JOHNSON
You’re definitely- Definitely.
KYLE GETZ
Um, so then you wave your hand, then you- This is where you present your dick or ass, or it said “The other option is then you wave your hand to say ‘No, you go first.’”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. [chuckles] Do the “come here” gesture.
MA JOHNSON
Red Rover.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Red Rover.
KYLE GETZ
So, okay, that’s the process, and, like you said, one of the most notable times this happened Larry Craig, a Republican, in 2007 was-
MIKE JOHNSON
From Idaho? Is that where he was from? I think so. Anyway, go on.
MA JOHNSON
Probably ho-ing it, probably.
KYLE GETZ
I was gonna say, he is da ho, but in the bathroom. No judgement, hashtag-
MA JOHNSON
Could you like, present your mouth?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’s a good idea, but then I think you see your face, which, I think part of the goal is not to-
MA JOHNSON
Do you not have duct tape with you? That’s not a thing?
KYLE GETZ
Wait, where does the duct tape go?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, he is from Idaho.
MA JOHNSON
Yes, he’s from Idaho.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, both of you, focus! We’re almost there! [Mike laughs] I have to scold both of you, including you, Mike!
MA JOHNSON
The blindfold. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Hot. Okay, Larry Craig and 40 others were arrested, a-rested, in a public restroom in the main terminal of the Minneapolis Saint Paul International Airport-
MIKE JOHNSON
Hold the phone.
KYLE GETZ
-in 27 [TN: 2007], from May to August.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
What’s up?
MIKE JOHNSON
40?
KYLE GETZ
40.
MIKE JOHNSON
Four zero?
KYLE GETZ
Her and four zero other people were arrested.
MIKE JOHNSON
In- At the same time?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, no, no, no, from May to August.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, okay.
MA JOHNSON
Oohh.
KYLE GETZ
So like, they have these stings that seem to go over a period of time, not one day.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just- [laughing] It was a 40-dude orgy at the C gates. [Ma laughing]
KYLE GETZ
That’s hot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I wish.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
We’re not talking about my fantasy, we’re talking about reality here, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, another recent example that I saw in the news- Oh, no, no, no. Something I wanted to mention…
MA JOHNSON
Mention.
KYLE GETZ
Caution, Mike Johnson.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes?
KYLE GETZ
Some of those 40 people arrested not for doing this whole, you know, toe-tappy- like, this whole thing. Oh, the reason he got caught is there are often, like, undercover police officers that know these codes, and some of them will get arrested just for doing these codes, which, none of what I described is-
MIKE JOHNSON
Illegal or should be.
KYLE GETZ
-should be. Should be legal, but they arrested anyway, and that’s part of the having plausible deniability and several steps to make sure. It’s like- Yeah, so he apparently got arrested-
MIKE JOHNSON
Counterpoint.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
If I’m dropping a deuce and your foot touches my foot, I should legally be able to stab you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that- Okay, yeah, that’s true. The glory hole is just a stabbing hole. Like- [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MA JOHNSON
Un-counterpoint: Can’t you just wave one of your hanky code colors under there?
MIKE JOHNSON
Ooh.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a good idea.
MA JOHNSON
Woo! Ay-oh, drop your hanky. I dunno.
KYLE GETZ
And then you can pass along a little bit more info on what you want, other than just-
MA JOHNSON
That’s right.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. But some of these- Some of these 41 suspects were arrested because they responded to online posts by men looking to arrange a quick hookup as they pass through the airport.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
So- So I’m just saying, if you use Grindr in the airport-
MIKE JOHNSON
Hypothetically. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
I’m- Hypothetically. I’m just saying, watch out. Just watch out!
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve used Grindr sitting next to you at the airport, so, like-
KYLE GETZ
I know! Whenever we go somewhere new, I’m like “Oh, Mike’s on Grindr right now.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yes.
MA JOHNSON
Okay, what about Match?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Match.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, I thought you said “Matt”, like my brother, Matthew. [laughs] Your other son.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah, what about Matt?
KYLE GETZ
Another example that they gave: in 2019, in DC in the Meridian Hill Park, there were 26 arrests in a one week period, so it’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
Good God.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, there are recent examples of gay men being arrested for this kind of behavior, which is, I don’t know, kind of weird to me. It’s like the tractor fucking, it’s like, how much harm is this really causing and what’s the priority? But anyway-
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah, unlike tractor fucking, this is really happening.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah. But-
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. This is real.
MA JOHNSON
Exactly, who- What? Like, you want to hook up, and then what is the problem?
KYLE GETZ
You are in a public space, so someone- Like, don’t involve other- Part of, you know, the whole, you know, kink scene, is-
MA JOHNSON
But you can sit at a bar and go, “Hey, you wanna fuck?” “Yeah, okay. Yeah,” and walk out.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. That’s my ideal.
MIKE JOHNSON
But you can’t then fuck at the bar, right?
MA JOHNSON
Oh, yes you can.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, you can. Should you? Is that legal?
MA JOHNSON
In the bathroom. In the-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a good way to get kicked out of Applebee’s, but the- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, okay, when-
MA JOHNSON
Safeway, they hate it there!
KYLE GETZ
In How I Met Your Mother, when straight people do this – like, go to the bath- “We’re newlyweds, we will go to the bathroom and fuck.” – people celebrate it, they enjoy it, they think it’s hot, but if a gay dude does it, very different. I’m not saying either is okay, I’m just saying, part of this is not saying whether it is technically right or wrong, part of it is what is your judgment, and how is it different based on the orientation of the person we’re talking about?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And I think-
MA JOHNSON
Right, right.
KYLE GETZ
Anyway, this is a part of gay culture. You will hear people talk about foot tapping, this is a thing, and I’m glad I’ve been able to illuminate it for all of you, and that I’m disgusted by Mike now.
MA JOHNSON
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Now? [Kyle laughs] It took this long? [Mike laughs]
MA JOHNSON
And Ma. And Ma!
KYLE GETZ
No, you’re still okay.
MA JOHNSON
Okay, good. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But we- There’s more to this episode, so we’ll see.
MA JOHNSON
There we go.
KYLE GETZ
Um, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah… we actually talked-
MIKE JOHNSON
Mom, did we do it?
MA JOHNSON
My vagina’s- Yeah, I’m good. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
“I’ve checked in with my vagina. We’re both good.”
MA JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Um, we talked about more than fetishes, which I’m surprised that we did, so, good for us!
MA JOHNSON
And feet, and feet long.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
And increments of inches, feet, boy inches, girl inches. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
So many things. I don’t love the phrase “boy inches”.
MIKE JOHNSON
I do. I’m here for that one.
MA JOHNSON
Because they go like this, they go, “How big was your fish?” [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t- Ohhh.
MA JOHNSON
Because there’s a girth and there’s a length.
KYLE GETZ
My goodness. Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
Help us out.
MIKE JOHNSON
What? Oh, should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break! [Ma and Mike laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
You’re the only person that can get us out of this!
MA JOHNSON
[singing] Hello, it’s me. I’m on the other side of the bathroom stall. [Mike laughs] Rub my feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break, please, now. God.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do I Gayest & Straightest, but first, the Gayish Secret Santa is coming up. I believe they’ve landed on December 21st as the date for it?
KYLE GETZ
People- It’s too late. So, people have already signed up, we’re already- Make sure you remember to get your gifts and have- that they arrive in time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly right. Yep. Uh, and, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We have several communities across the Internet, most prominently Discord, Facebook group, and on Spaces. You can actually find more about our communities that you can join at- Fuck, I- Uh, I think it is gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Good work.
MA JOHNSON
/HashBrownMa.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you- Do you know our hotline, mom?
MA JOHNSON
Uh, 1-800-Give-Me-A-Blowjob. [chuckles] No, I don’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
MA JOHNSON
And my phone number is 1-800-Get-The-Fuck-Away. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Uhh, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nope, first the local gay bar review! We’re gonna do a local gay bar review.
MA JOHNSON
Doo-doo-do-do-do-doo.
MIKE JOHNSON
This time I’m gonna talk about the Round-Up Saloon in Dallas, Texas.
MA JOHNSON
Yeehaw!
MIKE JOHNSON
It is massive, that place is fucking gigantic. There’s a huge-ass dance floor and there’s a huge-ass upstairs.
MA JOHNSON
It’s not gay though.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is gayyy…
MA JOHNSON
Gayish?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s gayyy.
MA JOHNSON
Oh, right on. Cool. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
It was gay when I was there, anyway!
MA JOHNSON
Nice.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, there’s dancing, there’s a pool hall, there’s an outdoors bar, there’s an upstairs hanging out place. This place is- It’s just- It’s gigantic. I went again with Dallas Check and Joe N Dallas when I was there.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, hey buds.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, um, there is a picture this time! I always forget to take pictures at the local gay bar review gay bars, but I definitely have a picture from this one.
KYLE GETZ
Nice.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, and, on top of being amazing and I loved it, a dude yelled at me across the upstairs decking, “You’re really handsome!”
KYLE GETZ
Aww! [Ma gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Four and a half dildos. [laughs]
MA JOHNSON
Ohh, of course!
KYLE GETZ
God, I’m just- The- What’s a bar gotta do, you know?
MA JOHNSON
Gotta hook up with Michael.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I gotta- Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You gotta get- You gotta do foot stuff in the bathroom for it to get five out of five.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly. But the bar also has to be good. Like, I got- So I got- I got laid in Argentina, but the bar wasn’t up to par.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It needs to be a bar that’s up to par, and a going home moment.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, one alone does not cut it. Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, that’s- That’s that, so now we can do our Gayest & Straightest if you want to.
KYLE GETZ
Awesome, yeah, I’ll go first.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is going to gay trivia.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Quiz Daddy Chris does-
MIKE JOHNSON
You love it.
KYLE GETZ
Me?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I went and was reminded on why I don’t go. I don’t like trivia, I’m not good at it, I feel uncomfortable. So- But Quiz Daddy Chris does a great job running trivia, so that part’s fine. It’s me, I’m the problem. #TaylorSwift.
MIKE JOHNSON
Chris- Chris Haigy from the We Read Movies podcast.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tuesdays at Madison Pub in Seattle, go.
KYLE GETZ
In Seattle, Washington.
MA JOHNSON
What’s today? I only eat on Sunday.
KYLE GETZ
It’s Tuesday.
MA JOHNSON
Oh, okay,
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Um, my straightest is: boy, I fell flat on my ass when I was walking over here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. [Ma gasps]
KYLE GETZ
And- Because it’s raining and there was like a metal grate that I just decided to walk over. And you know those- when people are like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Were you wearing that black puffy coat?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, no.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, okay.
MA JOHNSON
Skirt-
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank God, because thing is like a toboggan. You would just, like- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I’d just slide down the hill? I’d get here faster.
MA JOHNSON
Tripped on your skirt? No?
KYLE GETZ
I was wearing some pants-
MA JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
-so the situation set itself up to be not too bad. But like, you know, falling on your ass is the great equalizer. Everyone; gay, straight, dumb, smart, everyone can do it. I just felt like a regular human then.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What about you, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, yeah, okay, so the gayest thing about me this week: I went to brunch with my mom, and, you know, but especially throughout that process, just walking around Capitol Hill with her, and my joy at all of the gay shit. Fuckin’ rainbow crosswalks, and, like, a whole thrift shop that’s gay themed, and like, dude was wearing a pup mask just walking down the street [Kyle laughs] at like 11:30 this morning. It was- It was magical, and it felt super gay, and it was great. It made me happy to live in a city that has all that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s my neighborhood.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then, the straightest thing about me this week, which mom reminded me: the Jeep is disgusting. I’ve literally never cleaned it, and you can tell because there’s Boomer dog hair all over it.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have not had him for like three or four years now, so, like, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
He may have died in there, actually. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You add up all the hair, you might get a new Boomer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, God, oh. #Goals.
KYLE GETZ
#NewBoomer?
MA JOHNSON
Hashbrown- Hashbrown CleanIt.
KYLE GETZ
Hashbrown CleanIt.
MA JOHNSON
One of those little, uh, air freshener little trees would not cut that. [Kyle chuckles] Okay, so my straightest is that I have a low- So, my car was going “Hey, flat tire, low tire,” whatever. So I have this little gauge, went around, checked all the tires.
MIKE JOHNSON
[emphasizing the “ge”] “Gauge”. “Gauge”.
MA JOHNSON
“Gauge”?
MIKE JOHNSON
I heard “gay”.
MA JOHNSON
What I’d say, “gay”? Oh-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I heard “gauge”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
MA JOHNSON
I’m in this room, it’s just like, nyeh. Um, unscrewed the little doodads, did my tire pressure thing, da-da, yaddy-yaddy.
KYLE GETZ
You fix your car?
MA JOHNSON
Frequently- Well, ish. I drove it to Les Schwab, and they said I had a leaking bead.
KYLE GETZ
Seems pretty rude.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Get antibiotics for that.
MA JOHNSON
I know, right? Well, that’s a whole ‘nother segment. [Mike chuckles] And my gayest is: I went to brunch with my son, Michael Johnson, at-
MIKE JOHNSON
Poquitos.
MA JOHNSON
-Poquitos. Poquitos. And there were three gaggles of gays-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I bet.
MA JOHNSON
-and a gag. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Just one.
KYLE GETZ
Just one. Unfortunate.
MA JOHNSON
A ga. Guh. Ga. [Mike laughs] So, there you go.
KYLE GETZ
There you go!
MIKE JOHNSON
There you go.
KYLE GETZ
There you go, feet people, you’ve lost many times and this time you won, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I hope it was worth it.
KYLE GETZ
-I hope it was worth it. [Mike laughs]
MA JOHNSON
My bunions thank you. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, I- Thank you to all of the foot fetishists out there that just, like, hung in there with us, and they never lost hope, and they continued to lobby even despite the jaws of defeat.
MA JOHNSON
That’s right.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, they’re a resilient community that rely on each other for support, and love, and foot-cceptance.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MA JOHNSON
Plus they’re, you know, helping out the pedicure community.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They put so much money back in the community.
MA JOHNSON
There we go. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, also, thank you to the following foot fetishists: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, – Oh, hey! – Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Thomas B, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you all.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you all. That’s it. This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
See you next week.
KYLE GETZ
See y’all.
MA JOHNSON
Byeee. Love you, mean it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Love you, mean it.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
MIKE JOHNSON
You know what else has feet?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, what?
MIKE JOHNSON
Derek’s wieners.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, um- So- So-
KYLE GETZ
No. No, no, no, they have legs. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
With feet on the end of them!
KYLE GETZ
That wiener has legs. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MA JOHNSON
Wait a minute. Wait a minute, is this back to the metric system and other system? The feet, foot, inch system and the- What are they, meters? Millimeters?
KYLE GETZ
You’re measuring in feet.
MA JOHNSON
Feet.
KYLE GETZ
5855-Gayish?
MA JOHNSON
[in a high pitched voice] Never mind! [Mike laughs]
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com
As the FIFA World Cup 2022 continues, claims of homophobia are dismissed and deprioritized. Are the criticisms justified, or do we need to simply respect the culture of Qatar?
In this episode: News- 4:38 || Main Topic (Qatar)- 22:58 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:21:52
Donate to Dr. Nasser Mohamed’s non-profit to advance LGBT rights in the Middle East (with a focus on the Gulf region) at www.alwanfoundation.org.
On the bonus Patreon segment, we discuss brand ambassador to the World Cup 2022, known hot guy, and former(?) gay icon icon David Beckham. Get weekly and monthly bonus content by joining Patreon for $5/mo at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that wonders if, when Bernie Sanders orgasms, does he jizz universal basic sincum.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Spelled “cum”?
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Sincum”
KYLE GETZ
That’s what I call my jizz, is “sincum.” [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [chuckles] I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus made me do it. Um, I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and today…
KYLE GETZ
Today you sound wonderful, Mike!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, thank you. So first, I apologize for last week, everybody. Believe it or not, what you’re hearing right now is a dramatic improvement. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I’ve been paying close attention to your progress based on the voice texts that you’ve been sending, and yeah, you sound great! Comparatively.
MIKE JOHNSON
Comparatively, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s been- It’s been a lot, I almost died. Not really, but everything-
KYLE GETZ
But that sounds more dramatic?
MIKE JOHNSON
Everything’s better if it sounds more dramatic. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
You’re gay. It’s dramatic. We so rarely in our lives take a week off, it’s something we pride ourselves on actually.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, we- And so that might have been, like, I don’t know, the fourth time or I- it’s- it’s been a handful of times that we’ve taken a week off, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Which, maybe we should do more often.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe!
MIKE JOHNSON
Nah.
KYLE GETZ
No. [Mike laughs] I don’t know. I like that. I like being able to brag about that. You know all the big podcasts are like, [in a mocking tone] “Well, we’re taking a week off because, you know, my child died,” or whatever thing, and you’re like, “Come on!” Like, nut up!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and we- We decided early on not to do seasons, because that’s stupid.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, our season is season one! It’s all of it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Forever! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
All of it forever. Yeah. So, anyway, sorry about last week. Blame Mike, um-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s all my fault.
KYLE GETZ
-and not me.
MIKE JOHNSON
100% my fault. Hold Kyle blameless, everyone.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, but just hold me. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Umm…
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about Qatar!
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna talk about FIFA and that country you said.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep!
KYLE GETZ
Which I- Boy, I even- even though I looked up how to pronounce it, people were saying, like, the Americanized pronunciation, they were like, “It’s not ‘Qatar’ [TN: Like the “cu” in “cut” + “tar”], it’s called ‘Qatar’,” [TN: like “caw” + “tar”] but it’s- like, there’s even more to it that you’re doing better than I. I’m not going to attempt to the “Qatar”. [TN: Pronounced with a glottal fricative] Like, that’s not just your throat, that’s how you’re supposed to pronounce it.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] I’m so good at Arabic right now, with my, like, my voice being really nasally.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, it was planned. Yes. Uh, you should have been seeing a bunch in the news about FIFA and Qatar, so we’ll talk more about that in mere moment.
MIKE JOHNSON
In mere moments. But first!
KYLE GETZ
But first.
MIKE JOHNSON
There is 100 words in our email, but there’s a special request in that email for me to do a dramatic reading, and I want my voice to be better for that. So, just hang on one more week, Tim.
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’ll get there.
KYLE GETZ
Yes! And if you want to send in 100 words to get in the queue then you have to have the $15-level Patreon, and then send them over whenever you want.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep! Uhh, feedback and corrections. Real quick, a couple of small corrections.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nope, one small correction.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, it was widely reported that it was a drag queen that had stepped on the head of the shooter at Club Q during the shooting. There’s now mixed reporting that there was possibly a trans person that did that, and that calling them a drag queen was incorrect. I tend to believe that reporting, so, um, yeah. Anyway, just, like, it was unintentional but that person wasn’t a drag queen, probably.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And it’s- it’s so interesting these days how a tweet then is like, everyone starts retweeting it, and then you’re like… journalism, like, did anyone verify this tweet?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
What- If this tweet is to be believed, which I have no reason not to – but I also, you know – then it was just… they said it really well. They seem to either have been there or know this person, and just say, like, “Wasn’t a drag queen, was a trans woman. And I don’t think the person that said it was a drag queen knew that, so now that we know let’s correct it,” which is a very straightforward and fair way to be like, “That’s wrong. Now we know. Now let’s fix it,” and I love that approach.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, me too. Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. And then, uh, just a couple of updates to ongoing news stories. Singapore did actually finally overturn their anti-sodomy law. It had been proposed to be overturned months and months ago, and we reported on it, and like- but it’s actually happened now.
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] Are we in the new segment yet?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Did I already play the news theme song?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, fine. Here’s the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
KYLE GETZ
We don’t have to have been in-
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ lay off, Kyle, I’m sick! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t- I just don’t know- I just need an empty space where the news theme song goes.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s our editors problem.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true, that’s true. That asshole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck that guy. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, a couple of updates to ongoing news stories. [Kyle laughs] Singapore has finally, actually, overturned their anti-sodomy laws, so-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my God, I’m engaged now because I know we’re in the news section! It’s really, like, [Mike chuckles] you know. I’m just excited about the news
MIKE JOHNSON
I can tell you- You really turned it up. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Now I know where we are and what I’m doing, for once in my life.
MIKE JOHNSON
People don’t realize that during the news theme song you do a line of coke, and that’s why- [Kyle laughs] that’s how we get through it.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, just like Dan Rather used to, back in the 60s.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. That’s-
KYLE GETZ
Did all of that makes sense?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s why they called him Old Snow-stache. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I thought that was Santa. Santa does a line of coke, that’s how he stays up and goes around the world.
MIKE JOHNSON
God help us, Kyle. Are we gonna get through this episode?
KYLE GETZ
Do more coke.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, and the other ongoing story that I just have to report on: I said that, as soon as the CDC figured out what they wanted to rename monkeypox to, I would let you all know what they decided to rename it to.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The big winner: mpox.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ stupid.
KYLE GETZ
They’re what-
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ stupid!
KYLE GETZ
We were going “MPX” for a while. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
I just- It took you months to come up with that, and it’s not even that good? Which, I think we knew we were gonna be dis- I knew I was gonna be disappointed, I think I even said so at the time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mpox?
KYLE GETZ
I mean-
MIKE JOHNSON
Nobody knows what the M stands for, Kyle, it can’t be racist anymore. Like-
KYLE GETZ
Naming a disease has to be one of the worst jobs ever. That is a thankless job no matter what you call- Like, what person is going into- Like, “I’m in charge for the branding of monkeypox!” like, “That’s my job!”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Sorry, “Mpox”. Call it that.
MIKE JOHNSON
You just- [laughing] You just deadnamed mpox.
KYLE GETZ
Fuck, you’re right.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Don’t deadname people, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, news the first!
KYLE GETZ
News the first.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God. [laughs] And we play the news theme song again.
[News segment intro plays again, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Kyle laughs] [chuckling] You can do whatever you want to, as many times as you want to.
KYLE GETZ
You’re sick, this is Kyle’s show. You’re just a witness to this show. [laughs] If your voice stops working in the middle of this you’re gonna have to type down what you want to say and I’m gonna have to read your side of the conversation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, last week’s plan was for me to type it in for Derek to say it, and he can’t talk either. Not because we made out, but just ‘cause-
KYLE GETZ
‘Cause you sucked his dick.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. Uhhh, okay, news the first!
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Coming soon to the news: the lawsuit of Gayish Media Incorporated by our production assistant.
MIKE JOHNSON
He knew what he was signing up for. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
That is very true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay!
KYLE GETZ
I can’t look at his video.
MIKE JOHNSON
I can’t either.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] Just pretend like he’s fine with it.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] What the hell are they calling this thing?
KYLE GETZ
Derek.
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
No, no, no, no, no, no.
KYLE GETZ
Mpox?
MIKE JOHNSON
The Senate- In the United States, the Senate has passed marriage equality protections that are meant to protect our right to marriage equality in the United States, in the case that the Supreme Court overturns the Obergefee vel hod- Obergefell v. Hodges decision.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know.
KYLE GETZ
You did worse than I did sometimes. [both laughing]
MIKE JOHNSON
I know, “Mbergemell”.
KYLE GETZ
“Mbergemell shnee. Shnodges”. Yeah yeah, I remember that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um… It’s interesting because Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin, who is a mo herself – [Kyle laughs] well, at least part of the LGBTQ diaspora – had a lot to do with it getting through. It passed, 61 to 36, so that means 36 Republicans now are on record as saying that they still don’t like gay shit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not surprised. I kind of figured it would be more-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that would be against us.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, so many say vocally that they- not vocally, they say out loud with their words, “No, I’m fine with it,” and then when you go and look at the records, look at what’s written in their fucking republican constitution or whatever, it says “I don’t support it.” So you can’t- It’s just- You- You are- Again, you’re- I mean, we need to keep voting on LGBT rights, because we need to keep updating the records and know how they currently think, because a lot of people can just be like [doing a mocking voice] “Oh, no, that was- That was how I felt last week! I’ve totally changed!” you know? [Mike chuckles] Like, so, I’d rather get that- get that shit down, because they hate gay people. I don’t care. It’s written, it’s there, the proof is there, and it’s just- I don’t know. Sorry, it’s the truth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and the part- One part that people don’t hear- One thing I didn’t hear this week, a lot, is that if you can pass, by a simple majority, these protections, they can also be removed that quickly, right? Like, the Republicans can and will, at some point, take back power, and can totally undo this, unlike constitutional rights that are enshrined in the Constitution as interpreted by our judicial system.
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
This- It is still tenuous, but it’s better than nothing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
At least now, if Obergefell v. Hodges gets turned over and it gets remanded back to the states to decide, there’s a federal protection in place, for God knows how long, but.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah yeah. I mean, everyone- Like, you want everyone – in whatever their sphere is – to do what they can, and so, you know, they have done this. Like, they have at least done this thing, and that’s within their sphere of influence that they can do. They can’t control the courts. They can encourage, or oversight, or whatever they do for the courts, but this is what they could do and they did it, so I’m appreciative of that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Uh, the bill repeals the 1996 Defensive of Marriage Act, and establishes in federal law that same-sex marriages in one state must be recognized by another. So, that basically opens the door to federal protections, even though the state of Texas for instance is unlikely to be pro-same-sex marriage in a post-Obergefell world, those people could still travel to relatively nearby Colorado, get married there, and then Texas would be forced to recognize their Colorado marriage even though they’re Texas residents.
KYLE GETZ
It’s like planning for, in the case like abortion, where, okay, went back to the states and now the states get to decide. Well it’s like, okay, if it does go back to the states, you still have to recognize the states that say it’s legal?
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep, yep. Which is still a problem, right? There are people who might not be able to afford to leave their backward-ass stupid state to get married. There’s still potential problems, but, again, better than nothing. We have a lot to be thankful for.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. But I- I saw a very quick action on marriage equality, and I feel like – I don’t know if it’s even a fair comparison – I don’t feel like I’ve seen the same urgency around trans rights or legislation to support trans people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I think what- where that’s coming from, and I don’t know if that’s fair, I don’t know if we would have the same votes that we did for a bill like this, I just- One of the criticisms is, in the LGBTQ+ community, we often go for the benefits that focus on cis gay men. Like, that tends to be- And lesbians, you know. But that’s- those are the communities, less so than the people of color in our community, the trans people in our community, the disabled people in our community. Like, you add kind of some of those additional lenses, and marriage equality is both important and also there’s all of these other life-and-death things that I just don’t know that I see the same level of action, or, to me it just doesn’t feel like that, as an individual.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, you’re super right, but so much of that has to do with popularity as well, right? Like, ultimately, people are trying to get reelected, and they can’t piss off the people that vote for them. So, you know, support for marriage equality nationwide is somewhere in the, like, 70% range. It’s a very popular stance. Now, it wasn’t, 10, 15, 20 years ago, but yeah, it is now. Support for trans people, like the right to use the bathroom that they want to, is like 50% or less. The right to play in the sport of their chosen gender – their gender – is like 30 or 25%. It’s unpopular to support trans people, and that’s why they’re not getting the protections that they need, and that fucking sucks.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I hope- I hope we can get there, someday. So much of it, I think, is just visibility, exposure, education, and advocacy, but there’s a long ways to go and I also think that there’s a rebound effect, right? Like we’re panicking because everybody sort of thought Obergefell passed and we were good forever.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We thought the same thing about fuckin’ abortion rights.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’d been the law of the land for 50-ass years, and that’s the upside down, fucked up, bullshit, Goddamn world we live in now. Fuck, Kyle, I’m too- I’m too sick to be this mad! [both laugh] I’m gonna drink this drink.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
You should too. I made you a drink.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you hate it as much as I’m sure you do?
KYLE GETZ
You’re coughing because your throat is, like, dying and you’re having like, health issues. I started coughing because you made me a whiskey drink that I don’t understand, and it was like- I don’t- maybe just whiskey or something. It was a lot, and that’s why I started coughing.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s whisking, and honey, and hot water, and is a boop of lemon. You know.
KYLE GETZ
It’s a- It’s a “boop” of everything else, [Mike laughs] and then all whiskey. It’s a lot whiskey.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a lot whiskey. Hot whiskey.
KYLE GETZ
Hot whiskey, which is my new drag name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, we have to- [laughs] We have to keep talking about other things.
MIKE JOHNSON
Umm…
KYLE GETZ
I want to- Maybe I can cut this later. I sometimes keep in mistakes we make.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Including mistakes we make around, like, trans people, trans issues. When you said “chosen gender” instead of “gender”, and then corrected yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We can talk later about what-
MIKE JOHNSON
No, keep it in. Absolutely keep it in. I think, you know, I believe that I have earned my chops as somebody who cares deeply about the trans community, and I fuck up too.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I’m working on it, and I think demonstrating that is totally cool.
KYLE GETZ
I- And I don’t think we’ve, like, explicitly said that, and this is like- might be a good time to say that out loud. If we had a news podcast, or a reporting podcast, or a polished podcast that is the official final information, we would cut things like that, to be like, “This is how it’s presented,” if we’re an NPR-style podcast. But we’re not, we’re two people talking, so I like the idea of fucking up, correcting it, and continuing on, because that models the behavior I think a lot of people, including me, even to this day, sometimes worry about the wording of whatever issue it is. Trans issues, black issues, disability issues, I worry about saying the wrong thing, and- so I don’t say anything, and I’d rather say some- Every single person, every single group has said, like, “No, say something.” If you fuck up, that’s fine. And you probably will, and correct it and keep going. Like, you just have to start, and you have to talk about it. So, I like leaving that in, to show- to model that behavior, and that’s why it’s in there even after editing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. I’m down.
KYLE GETZ
There it is.
MIKE JOHNSON
I also have no shame, so, like- [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
I know. I’m the one, like, sitting there at like 2 a.m., and I’m like, “Should I text him about this, or should I like, leave it? Does he care? He doesn’t care. Maybe he will though, about-” You know. Yeah. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, alright.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] News the second.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the second, finally.
KYLE GETZ
We’re got your voice. We’re putting it up to- This is- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I love this. So, British Airways has changed their strict guidelines for their flight attendants, to allow male flight attendants to wear piercings and makeup while on duty. So, they have non-gender-specific rules, so all rules apply equally to everybody regardless of gender. So, therefore, employees in uniform – again, regardless of gender – can wear mascara, false eyelashes, earrings, nail polish. There are some restrictions; staff are encouraged to use subtle shades for a natural look, and their nail polish cannot be black or neon. They are-
KYLE GETZ
That’s offensive to Goths.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you know. You know.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] One step forward, one step to the left.
MIKE JOHNSON
We know that they’re all on United. [both laugh] They can also carry accessories, including handbags. They also are allowing man buns under their new hair grooming guidelines, which were previously prohibited. I just think it’s really great that British Airways is like “Yeah, this is dumb. Let’s fix it.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. It should be the same rules for every gender.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and I just- I think it’s really, really cool. So, I hope to God that the next time I’m on a BA flight that I run into a nonbinary flight attendant with, just, like- just decked out in everything, and-
KYLE GETZ
Just uses all the rules at once.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, a skirt and a pocket watch, and, like, just, the whole thing,
KYLE GETZ
Like coat, and nails, and man bun, and- [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
I guess it’s just a bun. I don’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
“Person bun”?
KYLE GETZ
“Person bun”?
MIKE JOHNSON
That doesn’t have the same ring, does it?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, anyway, the guidelines came into effect just a couple of weeks ago, on my birthday.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, happy birthday.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You’re still milking that. Man, that was a while ago.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you know?
KYLE GETZ
That’s fine, you just found a way to mention it again.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well…
KYLE GETZ
Happy Birthday, Mike!
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you! [both laugh] Oh, noteworthy for this episode: they made a point of making those policy changes before their services in and out of Doha, the capital of Qatar.
KYLE GETZ
Oohh, fuck youuu.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, there were ostensibly some flight attendants who got to- Some male flight attendants got to wear their fake eyelashes and nail polish on flights servicing the World Cup, so.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s fucking awesome.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the last. Actually, I think this is an update, but, DC Comics- Oh, wait, where’d Derek go? You’re gonna lose your shit, because I’m talking about comic book shit!
KYLE GETZ
[both laugh] Oh no, he’ll have to hear it on the episode when everyone else does.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, alright, alright. Alright. He’s dying, we’re all dying, everyone’s dying.
KYLE GETZ
He’s getting a Kleenex, I think because he just jizzed because he heard you talk about comics. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, DC Comics’ Batman and Robin. So, Tim Drake, also known as Robin, is, on the cover of an upcoming edition, going to be kissing his boyfriend.
KYLE GETZ
[singing] Show me love, show me life.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. His boyfriend is Bernard Dowd, and last year they started dating, and there was a whole coming out thing, and of course backlash from dickbag-
KYLE GETZ
Idiots.
MIKE JOHNSON
-idiots. Um, but now, on Issue #6 of Tim Drake: Robin, the two are gonna be kissing on the cover. He’s fully Robin-ed out [Kyle chuckles] and he kisses Bernard in the night with his cape blowing in the wind, covering Barnard, and the Gotham City skyline in the background. The edition is- it doesn’t come out until February of 2023, so I guess they’re trying to get all of the, like, bigoted bullshit out of the way now by announcing it. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um… But yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, they’re just- they’re adorable, and now there’s a same-sex kiss between Robin and his boyfriend on the cover of a DC comic, and I think that’s pretty fuckin’ fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- I’ve seen the squares of him coming out to his dad or something, and it’s like a very cute, like, whole coming out, and him being supportive and stuff, and, you know, we need all kinds of stories, including stories where just, like, you come out and someone is like, fiercely still loves their child unconditionally, as most parents say and only some parents do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, he actually did it, so, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anytime in fiction, of any form, that there’s a supportive Dad, I’m a blubbering mess.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
I have daddy issues for sure.
KYLE GETZ
Did you- Was- Did that happen to you in Love, Simon? I was like, “This is not that good of a movie,” but I cried when he came out to Josh Duhamel. I was like, [speaking dramatically] “He’s so hot and supportive!”
MIKE JOHNSON
[whispering] I didn’t see it.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, spoiler. Sorry. [Mike laughs] Back in time, spoiler. Hit the back button 30 seconds, Mike! I mean, forward 30.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god, can you imagine if you could edit my brain? [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
God. I think you- Is- Have you been editing my brain? Is that why I forget everything? You’re just like “Ahh, let’s take away that dumb thing I said.” Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and I’m gonna have to edit this. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s true…
MIKE JOHNSON
That time he realized.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughing] “That time he realized.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, that’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
How many other times have I realized that you’ve edited- [whispering] How many times has this happened? I’ll never remember! [gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, did you use the flashy thing on me, from Men in Black? [laughs] That’s the news, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
Um, speaking of the flashy thing from Men in Black, these are our flash new Patreons-
MIKE JOHNSON
Superheroes, Kyle! These are our superheroes!
KYLE GETZ
Fuck me, that was better. [Mike laughs] Flash me, Mike! Let me redo it! And, thanks for that transition, Mike. And now I’m gonna talk about the superheroes from Patreon, a transition I thought of myself. Thank you to: Michael McCrohon… I didn’t do that right.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nailed it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I didn’t even try again. Trevor Nelson. Got that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, good work.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, way to go, Trevor! Uh, Christopher Cash – Johnny’s grandson.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, Christopher’s slightly less cash now, but…
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] I mean, Christopher likes cents, based on what he’s donating.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and Sam… Weiller? Wheeler? We-iller? Weilleuler. Weilleueelelurr. Um, thank you so much [laughs] to our Patreon members, and I apologize! If you want to join Patreon for bonus content, last month’s bonus episode was about math, and there was a lot-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and brunch.
KYLE GETZ
Eh, math brunch. Brunch math. [Mike laughs]. And there were some really interesting studies, I thought, that was there. So, if you want to join, you get full bonus episodes every month as well as weekly stuff, more bonus shit, lots of bonus- We need to count up how many hours. It’s got to be over 100 hours by now, because we’ve done so much. Anyway, patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it.
KYLE GETZ
Do you want to talk about FIFA and…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my God, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
…[trying to do the glottal fricative] Qatar?
MIKE JOHNSON
Qatar.
KYLE GETZ
Qa- Qatar?
MIKE JOHNSON
Qatar.
KYLE GETZ
Qatar? It sounds more like an H when you’re saying it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Qatar.
KYLE GETZ
Qatar. I’m not gonna do that every time!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s my understanding. And now, like, I kind of want to just say “Qatar” [TN: Like “cotter”] because that’s how I- that’s how I, like, naturally said it before-
KYLE GETZ
“Qatar”, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-going down this rabbit hole of “How do you say it?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But yeah, I watched a couple of YouTube videos and I’m an expert now. It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect in in play.
KYLE GETZ
[both laugh] That’s literally our podcast. That’s- Like, “I read two articles, and now let me teach you about it.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Which one are you, Dunning or Kruger?
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Oh, I’m for sure Dunning.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
You’re definitely Kruger.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. I love this for us. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I think we are- Just, the fact that we’re not saying Qatar [TN: like the “cu” in “cut” + “tar”], the fact that we’re saying Qatar, [TN: like “cotter”] that alone I think is a step up from a lot of Americans, so I’m giving us basic, minimal credit of doing a minimal amount of work to know that part.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you. Thank you, me, from the credit I gave myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you. We- Yeah, we’ve surveyed every Arabic speaking person in the room, and it is- [both laugh] and we won.
KYLE GETZ
I hear no object- Any objections? Any objections? None! Cool. It passes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Going with it.
KYLE GETZ
We’re trying.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we’re trying. We are trying. First of all, Kyle…
KYLE GETZ
First of all, Mike…
MIKE JOHNSON
…are you a soccer fan? Are you a football fan?
KYLE GETZ
Um, I grew up- My dad played soccer. He, like, still played- plays soccer, like, kind of a little bit. Hi dad, if you’re listening, please pause the podcast and stop doing this. I told you not to. [Mike laughs] He, like, played in leagues that were like, you know, 50 and up, whereas like… should you be playing this game at your age? But he- Like, so he is a lifelong soccer player. He coached my brother’s team. My brother played through high school. I’ve been to a million soccer tournaments. It’s one of those things that I- when I joke about being gay, I joke about things like not understanding sports or whatever. I understand football, I understand soccer. Soccer, if I was gonna pick something, tennis and soccer would be the two that I would actually pick to, like, actively- That’s not- Yeah. Like, those were the ones I understand.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, the reason we’re talking about soccer, anybody under a rock is- Like, the FIFA World Cup is happening right now in Qatar, and when the World Cup comes around it’s only every four years, which, it feels more often than that, because I don’t care.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you tune in? Do you pay attention, or you don’t follow?
KYLE GETZ
No. No, no, no. I don’t give a shit. I have- It lasts for forever. There are a million different leagues and I don’t know or care, that’s the part that I don’t know. Do you? Do you know about or care about FIFA, or soccer, or…?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
None whatso- I just don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Do you know, like, the rule- Do I know more about the rules of soccer than you?
MIKE JOHNSON
So, the- I played soccer when I was, like, five, which is not really soccer.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s “put a ball out there and watch kids run into each other”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, that’s “just swarm the ball because you don’t know how to, like, not go run after the ball that’s sitting there”, and like, you’re like, the fielder.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Position”? What’s that? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I just- Like, the reason I want to have this conversation with you though, is because I, listening to all of the discourse about FIFA and all the issues that they have, and their selection of Qatar, and Russia the last time, I very much approach it from this position of: It’s a fucking game and I don’t fucking care, get your shit together. And I need to- I need to check that, because it is the world’s sport, and people care deeply, and it is billions if not trillions of dollars that are involved. And so, for me to be so flippant and dismissive of the whole institution is really… it comes from a position of ignorance and insensitivity that I- that I want to understand better.
KYLE GETZ
There is a- You know… yes and no. [Mike laughs] Like, it is a like a-
MIKE JOHNSON
Or fuck it all, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
Or fuck it! Okay. It’s a world- It’s a cultural, worldwide phenomenon that the US just hasn’t caught, so there is a bit of, like, if you just believe it doesn’t matter then you’re kind of dismissing a lot of things that every other country or most other countries give a shit about, so I don’t want to do that. At the same time, when we’re- when we’re putting into the scale of things, it is, in fact, a game that people are choosing to play. Unlike a lot of things, you are not born a soccer player, you’re not born a football player. Like, if we’re kind of stack ranking the importance of things, it is very important, not as important as other identities that belong to a person. So, that’s the part that I- I think it’s good coming from this place of, like, so much of what we hear is like trying to balance with the importance of soccer, and how much people care about soccer, and what- And I’m gonna call it soccer, because I don’t know, fuck you, this is where I- I just, I live here and this is what we call it. [In a mocking tone] Respect my culture, here we call it soccer. Um, but like-
MIKE JOHNSON
No, some cultures suck. More on that later.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. [both laugh] Oh no, I need to leave this episode right now, I already got uncomfortable. Um, but like- Yeah, I don’t know. So I- Yes and no, you know? I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Okay, so-
KYLE GETZ
Most gays only care about the hot soccer dudes.
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause they’re hot. Cristiano Ronaldo, sit on my face.
KYLE GETZ
That is- That has not worked for Darren Criss, it def- Darren Criss-stian Ronaldo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yet.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. [both laugh] I think you gotta- But like, you can’t spread the facesitting around to different celebrities. I think you gotta- if you’re gonna-
MIKE JOHNSON
Spread those legs! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I think you gotta go hard at one. So you’ve got to stick with Darren Criss If you’re gonna stick- Right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Ohh.
KYLE GETZ
You know, you can’t- If Darren Criss is like, “Oh, maybe I’ll sit on his face,” and he’s like, “Wait, but you also said that about Cristiano Ronaldo?” like, “He doesn’t actually care about me,” you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, counterpoint.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I get three.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I can choose three, but I’m only allowed to change them every six months, and then I- like, one of them has to fall off to make room for another one.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. I’m just picturing the Friends scene where Isabella Rossellini sees him and she goes “But it’s laminated.” [Mike laughs] There’s a select number of Friends people that will understand that, but anyway, this doesn’t matter.
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs] This doesn’t matter.
KYLE GETZ
Um, what did you want to talk- Yes, we’re talking about it because it’s the World Cup and people care about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
FIFA is the HBIC of soccer in the world, – football in the world – and the World Cup which is the pinnacle- it’s like, actually a World Series.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, unlike baseball. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Unlike ours, which is just us and Canada. But it is the governing body of international soccer, and it is a shitty institute.
KYLE GETZ
Corrupt, right. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is corrupt as fuck. So, they awarded the 2018 World Cup to Russia and the 2022 World Cup to Qatar amid lots of controversy that there were payoffs, and bribes, and that it didn’t actually represent the will of the body. Like, there was- There are a whole bunch of serious, serious issues, and all of that’s because of this guy named Sepp Blatter, which I think sounds like a UTI.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. [laughing] “Sorry, I can’t tonight, honey. I got Sepp Blatter.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Exactly. “If your Sepp Blatter lasts more than four hours, go to the ER.” Uh, he was the president of the organization at the time that all of these decisions were being made, and he and other top executives were facing corruption charges, and they since, as part of cleaning up their act, agreed to require, quote, “Minimum human rights standards for countries that apply to host soccer competitions,” including zero tolerance for discrimination based on sexual orientation. What they didn’t say was that – again, this is before Russia and Qatar – that they were going to enforce or protect those things the next two times.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
Like, so that comes into effect after this one?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s this weird, like, tiptoeing around recognition that “We are just a game, we are just an organization, a very rich and very famous and very popular organization, but this is still a sovereign country where we are going and doing business, and we are subject to the laws of that place and need to be mindful of that,” and lots of people not from that country are going to go to that country to attend this event and they’re going to bring with them their own sensibilities about what they should be allowed to do, and- Anyway, it just-
KYLE GETZ
There’s a lot about this that seems reasonable at face value, the “Respect our culture, respect our country, respect, what we stand for.” Like, there are certain things- Like, a lot of it is like, yeah, okay, yeah, we can do that. Like, you know? So, I think that’s one of the challenges that you have to dig more into to understand more, and remember that what people say is not always- they’re not gonna illuminate the full picture of what’s going on. So.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, I know that you’re gonna talk more about, like, LGBT rights or lack thereof in Qatar, and, just, I think that there’s been a lot of focus that’s been placed on FIFA choosing that country for this year’s World Cup.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
They also chose Russia four years ago. That was in the midst of all of the Chechnya gay purges that were happening, their anti-gay propaganda law that was coming into effect under the Putin regime. And we should not be surprised. Like, the fact that people are all of a sudden “What!? FIFA’s doing what!?” is-
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Yeah, yeah. It’s not like they have an impeccable record of only, you know, pristine human rights countries in their background or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
You can only- You can only have that opinion if you’ve had your own head up your ass.
KYLE GETZ
Right. Right, right.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Like, this- this is, yeah, this is an organization that has had problems with this in the past, and I think we can have every expectation will continue to. So the shit that’s going down in Qatar is around, first, by awarding that to that country, there was a whole bunch of migrant work that had to be done to build up the infrastructure to be able to host it that’s basically akin to modern day slavery in terms of the rules around it, and how much they’re actually getting paid, and their ability to leave the country if they want to without permission of their employer. It’s horrific, and the camps that they live in while they were building these things. Then there is the big question of alcohol, which, they had said there was going to be alcohol allowed in the stadiums, then just a few days before World Cup was set to open they said no alcohol allowed in the stadium during play, but there still would be alcohol just outside, which, it was all handwavy bullshit. They reneged. Basically, Qatar said, “Yeah, sure. You can totally drink. It’ll be fine,” and then, like, days before it started, said “No.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Which, that- I mean, like, those two things are clearly not on the same level, but I think it speaks to things that they say are that are going to happen and then changing. Like, how much does your word mean? And so, that, to me, is what’s important about the alcohol thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I don’t really care that much about defending the right to drink alcohol, like, that’s not on my list of priorities.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t either, except that I love booze, but-
KYLE GETZ
Same. I mean- Yeah. As I drink my whiskey, honey, lemon, whatever shit-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s so good, I hope you love it.
KYLE GETZ
It’s- I’m drunk. [laughs] Goodbye.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay, good. Good work. And then there’s the whole controversy which we talked in the news here not too long ago of, of, you know, rainbow attire and outward support for the LGBT community has been banned from the stadiums. There were a bunch of captains that were gonna wear armbands that were in support, that were then told not to, or if they did then they were gonna get a yellow card and that’s bad news, like, within the rules of the game, that is gonna impact, you know, the outcome. And then they said that they would allow it after all. Like, there were stories of people having their shit taken away from them on their way into the stadium, and then that stopped after a statement was made by an official that they were going to allow it after all. All the stuff leading up to the World Cup about, like, “Yes, gay people, you will be safe, just maybe don’t hold hands,” which, that’s bullshit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s- There’s a lot going on that we’re gonna talk more in- it- Like, taking an institution that’s a global institution like this, and so popular, hosting it in a place that’s so problematic, especially for queer people, and then see real-time the culture war in a way different context than we are prepared to approach in the United States. I’m super- I’m super interested in it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, I wrote down just, like, a tidbit more- more gravities that 1000s of migrant workers have died during the construction of the infrastructure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. But were they drunk? [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Um, which, they’re- It’s interesting, because I was talking to a straight friend of mine who was like, “Well, there’s more- Like, there’s more important things than the LGBT rights piece,” and it’s- it’s really difficult because the- that even comes up around the issues of trans people, like, the percentage. When you look at the percentage, you know, it’s like, what do you prioritize? And the percentage of people that it impacts, that unfortunately comes up as a: How do you prioritize this? What do voters care about? What do people care about? And the- And so, the death of 1000s of people is huge. That’s really important, and, that doesn’t take away from the major LGBT issues. Like, we don’t have to choose, “I get to be mad about one thing,” you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And so that’s why we’re- We’re gonna focus on the LGBT issues. That’s what our podcast is about. That’s what we’re doing here. Surely there are other people out there who, well, probably do this better, but also do the other thing better too. Like, you know, this is just what we’re gonna focus on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, I think that, largely, mainstream media has sort of forgotten. Like, “Oh, yeah, of course a bunch of migrant workers died. [chuckles] That always happens. Moving on. What can we actually care about?” and then they focus on booze and queers, right? Like- And that’s really- that’s really unfortunate, but I think that’s what’s happening. There’s this sort of, like, understanding that anytime a big major international event comes to a place, the Olympics comes to mind.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like there’s gonna be this building of infrastructure, and “Yeah, people are gonna die, but it’s fine.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not fine. It’s absolutely not fine.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But like, that’s the- There’s like a collective sweeping under the rug that happens that I think we’re sort of complicit in.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Or, queer issues get more clicks because they’re more controversial or something? I don’t know why that would- Even as I say that, that’s dumb that queer issues would be more controversial than fucking slave labor. Like, I- I mean- But there- We have, you know, effectively slave labor in the US, and that’s what some of these votes on were in the midterms recently. Like, I mean, we have- How often does that get spoken about? Like, it’s…
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just listening to somebody on NPR talking about immigration policy and how we need to fix what’s happening at the border so that we have workers to do the work that Americans don’t want to do, and I was thinking, well, that’s- that’s basi- It’s the same thing, right? That’s like, “We need to open the borders so we have brown people to do the shitty labor and die,” right? Like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The idea that, like, everyone’s like, “Oh, like, immigrants steal work,” and then here we are like, “God we need that fuckin’ work.” [Mike laughs] Like, that’s- Yeah, it’s fucked up. So, I mean, none of this is to dismiss the US as- I sometimes like to make- or, remind people; it’s easy to look at another country and be like, “Oh, we would never do that,” or “We’re better than that.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, some of these things, I think, are useful, not to say that they’re the same, but to be like, “No, we’re not fucking better than them.” Like, this is not your excuse to be shitty to anyone who – you know – lives in that country or whose faith is Islam. Like- Okay, but I’m gonna talk- That’s not what I’m gonna talk about. I’m talking about LGBT rights in Qatar.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. Yeah. Let’s do it. They have none. Good segment. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
Sssso, yep, it’s bad. Goodbye. What the-
MIKE JOHNSON
[coughs hard] [whispering] Sorry, I’m dying.
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] Stop it. Die quieter. [both laugh] Um, Qatar’s Supreme Committee for Delivery & Legacy has promised-
MIKE JOHNSON
That sounds like bullshit!
KYLE GETZ
There’s some of these- Like, it’s like “North Korea’s supreme leader”. Like, some of these words you’re like, Jesus, that already- I’m like- Yeah, I don’t love the-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like anytime the Senate puts forward the, like, “America Number One Freedom Act”, and we’re like, “Oh, this is for sure against brown people.” [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh yeah, this is definitely racist. Um, but they have promised – before the world cup – they promised a discrimination free event, and they said that it is welcoming, safe, and accessible to all.
MIKE JOHNSON
Liars.
KYLE GETZ
They said – in the statement – they said, quote, “Everyone is welcome in Qatar, but we are a conservative country and any public display of affection, regardless of orientation, is frowned upon. We simply ask for people to respect our culture.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I have heard that.
KYLE GETZ
Which-
MIKE JOHNSON
I have heard that there’s some truth to that, which doesn’t make any of the rest of it okay.
KYLE GETZ
It’s one of those things that seems reasonable. When you hear that and you’re like, “Oh, we just need to respect the culture of the country we’re going to,” that’s reasonable. And especially, like- you’re like, “Okay, I’m a good liberal, so that’s important to me that I do that,” and so when someone says that to you, you’re like, “Okay, shit, I need to stop and think about this,” and you do, and you definitely do need to. So, like, let’s look at what’s actually happening though.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, a lot of what we know about is from people that said they needed to remain anonymous, because it’s bad, that you don’t want to say your real name. Like, that would definitely get you repercussions.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep, yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, in the Doha News an anonymous gay man named Majid said – I’m just gonna read this part – quote, “It is very jarring living here, it is traumatizing to see that you are the cause of your parents’ anguish, that you are shaming your family. It is a constant onslaught, and it is killing me. It has caused irreparable damage to my mental health. I wouldn’t have chosen to have been born in a place where my life is tantamount to my death. There is no prospect or future for me here – no normalcy. What are my choices? Should all of us gay Qataris emigrate? I have thought of that, but this is my home country. I love my country and I am proud of it, and I don’t have anywhere else to go.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
[sighs] So, part of what’s happening, especially within the country – this reminds me a lot of Russia – is there are- mainstream media censors any kind of discussion reports of sexual orientation, or gender identity. And so, I think that’s- Within a country, that’s how you try to make people believe that it doesn’t exist. Or, like, if you see an uprising, if you see that there’s- there are actually- this group of people that do exist and in other countries are fighting for the rights or whatever, that might empower you. So they kind of squelch any kind of discussion or news about LGBT issues.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. If you don’t see it, it isn’t real. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep. And then, within the country, you’re like, “I don’t know any of the truth. The news has been, like, changed so that I don’t see any of the real information. I just see the propaganda, or, you know, any of the bad reports or anything.” So, what we’re actually talking about, what’s- the laws, then, article- There are a couple, but the biggest one is Article 285 of the current Penal Code, which punishes-
MIKE JOHNSON
Hah, “penal”. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
“Penal”. It’s like “penis”. Um- We need to find joy anywhere we can in this story, Mike. Let’s do it. “Penal”. It punishes extramarital sex, including same-sex relations, with up to seven years in prison. So that actually seems- There’s a lot of talk about the death penalty, but that seems to be the most realistic kind of actual punishment that is listed in the laws. The death penalty is only applicable for Muslims, because of Sharia law. So, like, if you’re not- If you’re Muslim, and live there, and gay, well, extramarital sex is punished by death, and because same-sex marriage isn’t legal then any gay sex is extramarital sex, but that technically also applies to anyone who’s had straight sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
I had read a couple of times, there are things that are punishable by death that have never actually resulted in the death penalty, like that somehow justifies it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and this is one of them that it’s like, you know, everything is like, this- You know, we don’t have any kind of recent information about any of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hypothetically.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. This doesn’t actually happen. And- What were you gonna say? Like, is that fine?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. No.
KYLE GETZ
No. Okay, cool, [both laugh] that was your- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, my- My point was that there are lots of people who say “Well, but nobody’s ever been actually put to the death for it,” like that somehow justifies the law, or like that somehow nullifies the understanding that that’s happening. Like, it’s still a deterrent. It’s still this, like, oppressive wet blanket on your entire life, whether you- Like, okay, so nobody’s actually been put death for it, but they might, and that’s scary.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Like- Yeah, “Oh, my neighbor has threatened me and pointed a gun at me, but he’s never actually shot me,” so like, “Oh, well, I mean, I guess it’s fine.” Yeah. Like, the- living under this threat, who knows if and when someone could use it. And the belief – the underlying belief – that makes it okay that it’s sitting there is that it still affects society.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Society believes it’s okay that that’s sitting there on the law books. What I saw less of, but is huge, is that they often will detain people based on Law No 17 of the 2002 Protection of Community, which allows for provisional detention. You don’t have to be charged, you don’t have to have a trial. You can be detained for up to six months. If there is some kind of belief that there was a crime, or – it reminds me of the morality laws that are in Iran that they’re protesting against – like, if you violate public morality, then we can detain you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
They’re detained by the Protective Security Department, [TN: Preventive Security Department] which is technically not the police. I might accidentally call them police, but like, that’s the department. It’s a national security team.
MIKE JOHNSON
Going back to Iran: that’s like the morality police in Iran. They’re not, like, really the police, but they are- They are.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. I mean-
MIKE JOHNSON
They were just supposedly abolished this week.
KYLE GETZ
We had- But then I’ve seen the Instagram things that I handle… that I handle- the handles that I follow are like, “No. Like, a person made this proclamation. There’s no laws that’ve been passed about this.” It’s not like- They’re like, “No, it didn’t actually happen.” Like, the New York Times fucking published this thing that’s like- I’ve been hearing real shitty things about the New York Times, like the public transphobic shit. Like, I’ve not been hearing good things about the New York Times.
MIKE JOHNSON
Really?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
They, like, publish this transphobic op-ed, and then later will be like, [doing a mocking voice] “Crazy wave of transphobia.” Like, they’re-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, oh, oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There’s a bothsidesism, maybe, to it. I don’t know. The New York Times- Let’s talk later about this, because I’m very interest- As a subscriber to the New York Times, I’m very interested in this.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, so, the Preventative Security Department that is detaining people, as of October 20…22- Why did I stumble over our current year of existence? I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Well, sometimes I see 2022 on paper and I’m like, “What year is that?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Some year.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that the future?
KYLE GETZ
It’s like, a bunch of twos with an 0 in it, you know? [Mike chuckles] Um, this is serious and sad. Um, reports that the Qatari police use – and maybe I wrote “police”, I think it’s the Preventive Security Department – uses gay dating apps to entrap men, subjecting them to sexual and physical violence before arresting them. There was one report by an anonymous person that went by Ali, who was lured to a hotel from dating app. When he got there, there were six people there, including the person that – you know – that he thought he was going to meet. [Mike laughs] So he walked in and was like, “Fuck.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that never happens to me. I show up and the OP is never there. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
There’s- [laughs] If I walked in there and there’re six people there, there’re context, that would be hot. ‘Cause it’s not – absolutely not – one of them. So, serious for a second, when he showed up there were six people from this department. He was gang raped by them and- And that was the end of my story.
MIKE JOHNSON
That seems not not gay.
KYLE GETZ
It’s- It’s- It’s so weird that that would- I also- Like, that’s such a weird thing. Like, “We are so against gay people that we’re going to rape a man.” Like, that doesn’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. How do you- What’s the- What’s the weird workaround logic? Like- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s this- There’s an argument in, like, Judeo-Christian circles about, like, is sodomy the violence of it, or is it the fact that it was in the butt? Because, like, most people think probably that God and Jesus, the thing that they’re not down with is violating a person.
KYLE GETZ
Right, right. The bad thing is actually the rape, not the butt part.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But we’ve interpreted it as- Yeah. According to Dr. Nasser Mohamed, quote, their “biggest targets are feminine gay men and transgender women – because it’s visible.” I’ll talk more about Dr. Nasser Mohamed later, but the- this- I mean, we have had this in the US. This is why we often say that trans women, especially trans women of color, are the ones that started this movement. It’s not because they intended to, because they are often the ones targeted. So it’s interesting to see that, you know, continue to play out, that when you are visible, and – whether you want to or not – you are then targeted, and then you unfortunately have to become an activist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s not your- A lot of times it’s like “I don’t- I didn’t want to be an activist. I was just targeted by the police so fucking much I had nothing else to do.” And whereas someone like me, who is- I could more easily pass – here’s that word again – I would be less likely to be targeted.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I have some benefit that I don’t look a certain way.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, they arrest LGBT people and subjected them to ill treatment and detention. That’s the most light-hearted way to describe that.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Ill treatment”. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t- I don’t know where I wrote that down, but it’s- The Human Rights Watch documented, from Dr. Nasser Mohamed – again, we’ll talk about it later – but he made these connections to- Because, like, you cannot be out in Qatar, so- like, there are all these connections. Even in the gay world, this is why, like, getting catfished on gay dating apps is, like, so horrific. It’s like, you are- you’re underground. You’re doing things through connections of people. You’re not- You know, you’re trying to hide it. And to find out one of those channels is not safe to be on, or, you know, let’s say one of your friends ends up – this happens – being converted to an agent because you got caught. Like, things- You never know for sure that something’s safe. So anyway, this guy connected the Human Rights Watch with six people, which is more than I’ve seen anywhere else, that they documented six cases of severe and repeated beatings between 2019 and 20…22. [Mike laughs] I don’t know why that date’s fucking me up! But it’s- “Six” is not to say that’s all that has happened. That is, like, again, like you have such limited connections to people who are willing to speak, and, you know, all of them are doing it anonymously. There are five cases of sexual harassment in police custody between that same timeframe. For example, they required – for release – they required that one of the trans women attend a conversion therapy session, what they called a “behavioral healthcare center,” but it’s, like, flat-out conversion therapy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They forced them to unlock their phones and take screenshots of all of your chats, and pictures, and everything to then find other people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Hey Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was in Dubai.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not too long ago.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
You may have heard I did some traveling.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Did you tell them about me?
MIKE JOHNSON
I told them all about you, and they’re ready for you. [Kyle laughs] No, I deleted Grindr off my phone before we landed because I was afraid of, like, what if I’m going through immigration and they’re like, “You seem pretty gay.”
KYLE GETZ
“Unlock your phone.”
MIKE JOHNSON
“Unlock your phone.” I was like- I deleted a whole bunch of dick pics, [laughs] and I took Grindr off my phone. I was like, “Oh my God,” because I’d heard stories like this. And I’m like, that is so fucking terrifying.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it was fine.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I just, like, waltzed right out of the airport.
KYLE GETZ
But I mean, the thing is, like, often, all of these conversations, they’re like, if you’re poor you’re more likely to be targeted, if you’re more fem or trans you’re more likely to targeted. Like, if you are a white person, if you are a visitor-
MIKE JOHNSON
I am.
KYLE GETZ
As you are, based on your skin. Um, If you’re- Like, there are certain things that are like, you’re more- you’re less likely to be targeted.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And so the same- I think, for Qatar, if people go there they are going to not target anyone that’s visiting internationally because they don’t want to make this a scene. They may be, you know, more discreet about all the shit they’re doing. They may be nicer to other people and they’re like, “Oh, no, I went there and it was fine! Oh, I just didn’t hold my boyfriend’s hand and everything was fine!” and I think that’s to hide some of these underlying things that are going on. So.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely. There’s also, like, a true thing in the Muslim faith, of they actually don’t care that much about what non-Muslims do. Muslims have to toe the line. Like they- there’s a zero-tolerance policy for them. But like, if you’re not Muslim then it’s maybe okay. It seems to be part of the dogma. Like, there are lots of majority-Muslim countries where they can serve alcohol but only to non-Muslims. Like, there’re whole districts in Doha – in Qatar – where, at least in the past, you were able to sell liquor as long as somebody wasn’t a Muslim. Which, I don’t know how you tell that. Is it like, you have like a non-Muslim ID card?
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But there does definitely seem to be part of the part of the faith that is way more interested in policing their own behavior as opposed to the behavior of others.
KYLE GETZ
Hm, interesting. That’s weird. There’s something refreshing about that, of like-
MIKE JOHNSON
But still not okay.
KYLE GETZ
Not okay. It’s like, I wish Christians were like “Let’s only police Christians behavior.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Because they clearly want to be-
MIKE JOHNSON
At least in this country, they’re fucking it up.
KYLE GETZ
In this country- Yeah, they’re trying to police literally everyone’s behavior. So, is that a good segue into your segment?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna get us kicked off the air.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I need to pee.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay. Is that why- [laughs] And now, here’s a two minute segment of the sounds of Mike peeing.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m doing it now. Some people would be into that, I’m pretty sure.
KYLE GETZ
That’s very true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, we’re back.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are we- Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, that’s not what happened. Okay. I want to talk about cultural relativism-
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and the idea that you have to understand and mitigate your feelings about another culture based on how they think about themselves, as opposed to a universal truth.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s sort of the same principle by which we let, like, old people off the hook. You know what I mean?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Like, “Oh, no, they’re from a different generation, and that excuses racism, homophobia, transphobia.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, I’ve been sick, as everyone can hear, and I-
KYLE GETZ
Some people think your voice has just been getting sexier. [Mike laughs] So, I don’t know- I don’t know if you want to find a way to maintain this level. You got some positive feedback on your sick voice.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. That’s true. Or was it my sick hair, because my sick hair was also pretty good.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, that’s true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Pretty good in that picture.
KYLE GETZ
You did one of those [in a mocking voice] “I just woke up,” but you had clearly, like, spent some time?
MIKE JOHNSON
No!
KYLE GETZ
No? Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I woke up like that!
KYLE GETZ
Okay, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I did! I woke up like that!
KYLE GETZ
Okay, Beyoncé, that’s fine. Yeah. I get it. Yep. That’s how you look.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was adorable. It was good lighting. [Kyle laughs] Um, okay. Okay. So, I went down this k-hole of watching YouTube channels run by Muslims, and their thoughts, feelings, and opinions about FIFA and the World Cup, but specifically about gay stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I have arrived at this point where I find now the whole faith terrifying.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I- I’m legit nervous about it. Like, I- I’m- The stance that I want to take, or have taken in my heart and I’m just afraid to, like, say it, is that that religion, almost without exception, hates gay people. And I think that I am- I’m prepared to say that that’s wrong, that moral relativism is unacceptable in this context, and that there are a universal set of truths that we can rely on that supersede religion or culture, and basic human rights and dignity trump those things. So, I want to have a conversation about that. I have lots of, like, facts about, like, what’s halal and what’s haram, and like, what Islam says, and what’s in the Quran and what’s not, but, like, I really- There’s this weird sandwich, as a liberal person in this country, there’s this weird, like, layered approach that I have that still arrives at “Islam as wrong, and I think they’re stupid, and I hate it.”
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I also feel that way about most Christianity.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And so, there’s a certain amount of like xenophobia that might be present in this, but like, on the whole, that religion subjugates and oppresses women, hates gay people, is absolutely intolerant of have any outside influence or appeal to higher principles, and the whole thing is really terrifying. Like, have you- Have you studied this at all? Have you looked into this at all?
KYLE GETZ
I want to say, like, what you described is also exactly how I feel about Christianity.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
All those things you said: hates gay people, on the whole oppresses women, rejects outside influences or whatever. Like, that, to me, you also described Christianity. Is that- I mean, would you say the same things about Christianity?
MIKE JOHNSON
I- [sighs] Not to the same extent.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And- Close, but not to the same extent.
KYLE GETZ
And is that just because we know some of the nuances, or we know people. Like, Joseph Peters Matthews is a priest that is supportive about LGBT issues. There are certain sects, or divisions, or, I don’t know, denominations that are supportive of LGBT people. Is that- Is it just because of our knowledge of Christianity that we give them a little bit more leeway? That would be the part that I would worry about there’s a difference in.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have not studied this, but my gut tells me that Christianity slowly but surely is yielding to Western principles of egalitarianism and feminism, and being affirming of gay and sexual identity minorities, GSRM, gender and sexual relationship minorities.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. And I- This is- No, I have not gone down the, like, this kind of level of understanding, so I mostly just need to learn from what you’ve researched, I think, to understand that.
MIKE JOHNSON
One thing that has emerged from watching all of these YouTubers is that they very much are posturing our angst about gay rights at the World Cup as just us being Islamophobic and hating their religion, and they therefore don’t have to look any further than what’s being said. They can immediately just, like, dismiss everything as being like, “Well, you’re just Islamophobic,” and-
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s a fair concern to be worried about. We certainly, on the whole, like, any kind of- the average American is going to be Islamophobic and xenophobic, so I understand that concern. But, I mean, I just described a bunch of things that I didn’t talk about. I talked about religion literally one time, and everything I described and what I described is horrific.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
The treatment of LGBT people in that country is horrific.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And so, I’ve- And if that’s being influenced by their religion, which I think it is, that- I mean, you can’t- Yeah. If you just purely dismiss it then that’s- that’s homophobic. Now we’re having a war of, like, “You’re xenophobic,” “Well, you’re homophobic,” like- and- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, so Qatar’s constitution says that Sharia law is the main source of their legal system, and it includes a whole bunch of stuff, including family law, inheritance, criminal act. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff in there that just is wrong, like the idea that, in family courts, a female’s testimony is worth half that of a man’s. Islamic polygamy is permitted, so men are allowed to have multiple wives in that system.
KYLE GETZ
And, I take it, not the other way around?
MIKE JOHNSON
And not the other way around. Corporal punishment is the way that they enforce a lot of their rules. Flogging or caning is employed as a punishment for alcohol consumption. Sexual relations, outside of one man and one woman for the purposes of procreation, for instance adultery, the penalty is 100 lashes. Like I was saying an earlier segment, Muslims are the ones that receive those punishments. There’s a sort of understanding that they police their own and are less interested in the crazy shit that non-Muslims do, but stoning is still a legal punishment under that system. Apostasy, homosexuality, are crimes that are punishable by the death penalty.
KYLE GETZ
What is apostasy?
MIKE JOHNSON
Apostasy is-
KYLE GETZ
You can’t pretend to be an apostle?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Apostasy is saying that you’re no longer a Muslim.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, you can’t- You can’t even leave?
MIKE JOHNSON
You can’t leave.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s punishable by death. Uh, blasphemy, you can go to prison.
KYLE GETZ
God, I haven’t been blasphemy’d in so long.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Blasphemy me, daddy.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Blasphemy, daddy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, quick aside, just because I- I just saw the note for it.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
There was, just like Canada in the 50s or whatever with the fruit machine, there was a proposed homosexuality test called the GCC test, [TN: The GCC homosexuality test] which, that stands for Gulf Cooperation Council, which is a group of countries that are all, like, in bed together because Islam.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And they were trying to prevent any homosexuals from traveling to those countries. And, several years ago, the Director of Public Health of Kuwait was trying to say that all of the countries that are in that conglomerate should impose this test ahead of the World Cup so they can make sure that no- no faggots came to their-
KYLE GETZ
I saw that, like, that proposal that, like, didn’t come to fruition, luckily, because what the fuck are you going to do? Like- But I saw that was like a potential, or in discussion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently the- they didn’t really know how they were gonna implement it either, except that there’s lots of documentation about routine medical examinations: anal probes. They were going- they were gonna inspect buttholes to see if they had been “violated” recently, to decide whether you were a homosexual.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. God.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, it’s just- And you’re right, it did not come to fruition, but, like, [chuckles] putting the “fruit” in “fruition”.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but that was a seriously discussed thing, to make sure that no gays would come to this thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the thing. The sentence that I’m afraid of, I guess, is: if owning women and controlling their lives, if killing gay people, is Islamophobic – and that’s what a lot of them are saying on YouTube, is that it is – then I guess I’m Islamophobic. Like, I don’t know- I don’t know how to reconcile that. Can you help me figure out how to navigate that? Because I feel like a bad liberal, but, like, I- I guess- I guess I am, because I think it’s wrong. I’m prepared to say “Your religion is wrong. Fuck you.”
KYLE GETZ
I- So- Okay. Here’s what I figured for- in the US. And I got into a discussion with someone on Facebook Messenger – and I forget your name and don’t even know if I’m allowed to say it, but thank you for the discussion – when I mentioned that a practice in conservative Judaism is to suck the blood off of an infant’s penis during the circumcision.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think one of the complaints that they brought up, that is important, is that does happen and it is very rare. It is not, like, commonplace.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
One of the issues- And I thought through that a lot, because any kind of- Any- Same as you, I’m like, I try- I view myself as a supportive, liberal, understanding basic human rights, you know, kind of person. What- When I complain about Christianity, I feel very confident saying “Fuck Christians,” and I don’t care if there’s- there are denominations that support LGBT people. We have friends who- I don’t know. Like, whatever. They are the dominant religion in our country that are attacking LGBT, and specifically trans, people in this country, so I feel really comfortable with that. Because of- And especially because they are the majority. So when you attack other religions, especially in the US, when they are minorities, it can give people- make them feel like it is okay to then be xenophobic, to be Islamophobic, to be- Like, as much as I say- If we say, “I disagree with this religion,” I also don’t want anyone in the US to be attacked because of their practice, or believed- or perceived religion. Like, I don’t want that. That should not give us a license to treat people differently. I believe basic human rights means that I both hate that treatment of women and gay people, but I also don’t want anyone to be treated poorly because of their belief.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I both don’t want- I want that- I don’t- I can dislike the religion, but I want the fundamental person to be- have that same level of respect that I believe everyone deserves, which is why this conversation is happening in the first place.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It just has disproportionate- Like, criticizing Christianity, versus other religions, in the US, has a disproportionate impact and can’t be treated the same, and that’s what I kind of realized through this religion. So I may continue to criticize them, but I think I’ve done a fair job of, like, I mostly critique Christianity. I- That was one critique that I had against conservative Judaism. I may have misled to make it seem like that was every practice, when I should have been more specific about what they do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know. That’s kind of the balance that I’ve tried to understand or bring to it.
MIKE JOHNSON
There- Is it possible for a redneck and me to say the same thing for different reasons and have that be okay, or am I just automatically a dickbag bigot? Because, you know, I’m not automatic- You just said all the reasons why, but, like-
KYLE GETZ
I think- Yeah. I think- Here’s the thing, I think I can easily slip out something like “Fuck Christians,” or “Fuck Christianity,” and that should be fine, and I need to be careful about anything else. If you just said- If you said something without context, or without- If you just said, like, “I hate Islam,” like, that alone, that’s pretty fucked up. Like, you have to give a little bit more context because someone could very easily take that and run with it, and then start targeting people in the wrong way.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I think you have to give more context and information around what you’re saying and be more careful about how you say it. So yes, I don’t think you should say- And, so many times online, you have, like, you hear these dog whistles, and time and time again people say the same thing. Someone just asking “Define a woman,” automatically I know you’re transphobic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There is an interesting conversation to be had around “What is a woman?” That’s an interesting conversation to have, that I don’t- 99% of the time someone’s asking online, I don’t think they mean that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. For sure.
KYLE GETZ
And I would love to have that conversation with someone who actually wanted to talk about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Probably even a trans person, or trans doctor who could talk to us about that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So the same- Like, so you should not make the same statement as that Republican dickbag. Sorry, I changed- [laughing] I changed the whatever you said to “Republican”, because that’s what I heard.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s- Yeah. I mean, yeah. Mostly-
KYLE GETZ
Mostly Republicans.
KYLE GETZ
Mostly Republicans, yeah. One thing that I think is really interesting, that I found watching all of these YouTubers, is, first, how sincerely they seem to believe that it is just- it is true and impenetrable. Like, the Quran and the Muslim faith seem, to me, to be far more organized and unilateral than most of Christianity. A lot of Christianity is like, “Well, it’s all about faith and-” and, you know, there’s so many different sects that you can choose from. As near as I can tell, the differences between different Islamic faiths are very minor compared to, like, Christianity. That’s just what I saw online, which is probably a skewed sample, and I fully am aware of that and would love to learn otherwise. But I heard- I heard lots of variations on “We hate the sin but not the sinner,” and I also think that the Quran is far more definitive than the Bible on- that, like, homosexuality is bad.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. I mean, some Christians would say it’s definitive, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. There’s more academic discourse about that in the Christian sphere. I- I’m not an expert.
KYLE GETZ
No, you’re the one that watch this, so, like, I’m just trying to provide the, like, there are similarities in Christianity that that make it not- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
One question I thought was really interesting. Somebody said, “If the World Cup were in England, and a Qatari player wanted to wear an armband that was pro-polygamy, would that be tolerated?”
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I hope so. I’m full- I’m totally fine with polygamy, if you divorce all of the other surrounding meanings, and religion, and everything. Polygamy- Like, I mean- Like, open relationships and like non-monogamy, cool. So I’m fine with polygamy, but then you get the context of culture, and religion, and everything is what makes it weird. Like, people associate it with, like, underage marriage, and, okay that’s because of the Mormon Church. That’s not because of the concept itself, that’s because of Mormonism. Like, so yes, I’d be fine with that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, so, the thing is, this person said this as if it were a slam dunk.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like all you have to do is think about it that way and then you realize that it’s okay for them to hate rainbows. When it didn’t have the impact that he thought it was going to have on me, the listener, because my first thought was, I would hate it, but yes, go for it! Put a fucking swastika on your uniform. I will hate it, and I will think that you are a dickbag, but like, go for it. They- Free speech and freedom of expression is not a value that we share. The fact that they thought, of course we would shut that down and it wouldn’t be okay- I- It would be controversial, people would flip out, but I- It would probably be okay. I don’t know, FIFA might shut it down, though, because pinkwashing. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
‘Cause who knows. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and then the other thing that I wanted to touch on briefly, is there was a guy who was talking about how, in Islam, if you are tempted to do something, and don’t do it because it is a sin, that equals rewards in heaven. So, from their perspective, it’s actually a blessing to want to bang dudes and not do it. Like, that’s part of the messaging.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, whoever wrote that was deffo gay. [laughs] That’s what all the- Like, that’s what gay people are all- like, closeted gay people are always like, “No, no, everyone can decide, because I chose to be straight. I chose to marry my wife,” and it’s like, nooo, beep, not everyone. You- You just don’t know that you’re just gay and not everyone feels that same feeling.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right. Right, right, right. But like, add on to- Like, in the Catholic faith, it’s okay to be- it’s okay to have same-sex attraction or to [in a mocking voice] “struggle with same sex attraction,” It’s just not okay to act on it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is the same thing. The difference is, in Islam, you will be rewarded in heaven for not doing it.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, but with what? [laughs] What do I get out of it?
MIKE JOHNSON
Like- Like virgins.
KYLE GETZ
Oohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
You get- You get, like, tangible rewards in the afterlife.
KYLE GETZ
Man, I would love to be rewarded with virgins. [Mike chuckles] I don’t think- I- Wait. Hold on. That’s not- I want to have the sluttiest dudes. [laughs] I want them to fuck so many fucking people that they know what they’re doing. The reward isn’t virgins-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t want to teach them!
KYLE GETZ
I don’t want a new- Like, “Oh, here’s how you do sex good.” No! I want-
MIKE JOHNSON
I want a worn-in, comfortable sweater.
KYLE GETZ
I want a dick that has been inside so many assholes he’s forgot what it feels like to touch air. [both laugh] [Mike sighs] …Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
The brainwashing of that, I find disturbing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The idea that “We can affirm that you might be gay, or want to be gay, and fighting it is not just a neutral thing or an expectation, but fighting it is good. Fighting it means after you’re dead you’ll get more awesome shit in the afterlife,” that is so toxic, and I am so against that.
KYLE GETZ
There’s an additional level- Besides just like, “Oh, it’s not bad, it’s actually good that you’re fighting this,” like, that’s an extra level of, like, mindfuck that is adding to it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, “I wish I were gay so I could not fuck dudes, so God would love me more!”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, what’s wrong with you- It just- It’s fucked up, and it’s stupid, and I hate it, and I just- I’m so- I’m disturbed. This whole episode has now disturbed me, and I wish we hadn’t done it. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Great. Alright, well, edit, delete.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s move on. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Well, we’re skipping two weeks in a row, sorry you don’t know that because you never heard this episode. Something that I wanted to read, that I think is valuable-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So I read there is one out, gay, Qatari.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
His- I mentioned it before, he’s the one that referred the Human Rights Watch to six people to get some of those anonymous stories, Dr. Nasser Mohamed, and he said this, that I think is a useful way to kind of recap this whole thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
But he’s- He’s done a bunch of awesome shit. He’s started an organization- He lives in the US, so- He can’t live there and be out, so he lives in the US, and has come out, and he’s a fucking doctor, which, that’s- he’s a physician, which is amazing. So he’s- he’s the right person to do this and make this change, and he started the Alwan Foundation to advance LGBTQ+ rights across the Gulf region and especially Qatar. If you want to go to alwanfoundation.org, that’s A-L-W-A-N foundation .org. You can donate there. He’s in contact, he says, with hundreds of Qataris, which, that’s far fewer than of course are out. He started the Proud Maroons, which, that’s apparently- Qatar’s national team’s color’s maroon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I wouldn’t have known that. But, like, LGBTQ+ supporters of their national football team, which is, like, really cool to be like, “Yo, I’m gay and fuckin’ love this sport.” Like, that’s- He said – about attending these events – he said, like, you know, sometimes we, as trying to be good liberals, are like, “Should I even go to this? What level of support-” He said, quote, “if you’re a diehard soccer fan and you really, really want to go, then you’re not an awful person for going and watching the games. But there are ways to advocate for the cause and push it,” so he’s not just an absolutist, and it seems like a reasonable- He’s done a lot of awesome shit. Anyway. And I’m building up to, the point is: they asked the question in this interview I read, “Isn’t there a risk that the LGBTQ+ outcry is emboldening…” “Emboldening”? Did I say that right? Awesome. Good work. I should’ve done that in my head instead of out loud. [Mike laughs] It’s fine. Emboldening “…Islamophobia?” So, I will just read what he said. “There are, of course, xenophobic and Islamophobic twists to the topic. It’s being used by everybody. It’s being used by the abusers to gaslight people that are trying to advocate to keep them silent. And also there are truly xenophobic and Islamophobic people who are having that confirmation bias moment:…” and “…they’re like, ‘Oh, I knew Islam is shit’ or ‘I knew Arabs are shit,’ which is bringing more hate and is really not helping the situation. I think everybody should participate in human rights conversations, regardless of where they’re from, or what their religion is. Believing that violence and human rights violations [are specific to] any culture or any religion is totally xenophobic and Islamophobic.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, say that last part again.
KYLE GETZ
“Believing that violence and human rights violations [are specific to] any culture or any religion is totally xenophobic and Islamophobic.” What are you having trouble with there?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think I disagree.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Explain.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is the conversation I was trying to have about, like, higher principles. The idea that, like, gay people are okay, leave them alone, I think trumps any religious text, or dogma, or interpretation, or messaging, and I think- I think it’s okay to say specifically Islam hates gay people.
KYLE GETZ
But to believe that Islam as the only religion, and others are good. He said, like, to believe that this country-
MIKE JOHNSON
I do not- I do not believe that they are the only ones.
KYLE GETZ
So I think you’re fine. I think you’re covered.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think many, many, many do.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s the point, to be like, “Oh, it’s just Qatar” or “It’s just Islam” that does this. That’s what he’s saying. To believe that it is specific to any culture or any religion, It is just that culture, just that religion. I think that’s the point he’s making. I think you’re safe in your belief that it is not just Islam that’s the problem. It is not just-
MIKE JOHNSON
Limited to. Limited to, is what I’m not, like, getting. Okay. I’m with you.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. You can send him an email if you want to argue that wording of that, but I think the point is to be like “Oh, yeah. Oh, Islam, they’re treating people shitty. They’re a shitty religion,” and not look at the shittiness that goes on in all religions, including Christianity.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that- I think that’s the point. We’re not singling out one for its bad treatment, when other religions get a pass.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which I don’t think you’re doing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Hey, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Hey, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dicks are great.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [both laugh] We’re gonna start our own bible, and that’s gonna be like the first – what the fuck is the stone tablets? – the First Testament or whatever, is going to be “Dicks are great.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I love it. I mean, kind of end of Bible, right? End of the Gayish Bible? Do we need to keep going? [Mike laughs] I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s do a Gayish Bible next year. That’ll be fun.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I can’t wait. Oh my god. It’s gonna be in every hotel.
MIKE JOHNSON
[both laugh] We can just start printing them and leaving them in nightstands.
KYLE GETZ
Just leaving them-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We’ll leave them in hourly motels, because honestly that’s our target market. [both laugh] Let’s be honest, they’re more likely to be done with us. Um, something we didn’t talk about, that I wanted to talk to you about over break, because this episode is already, well, fucking long, Is David Beckham.
MIKE JOHNSON
He’s hot.
KYLE GETZ
Known hot person, David Beckham, is a brand ambassador for the fucking World Cup.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I want to talk more about him and his uh, his gay icon status.
MIKE JOHNSON
See? I want him to sit on my face, but I will not put him on my punch card.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, you would refuse that ass on your face?
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t say that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mike, had- If you’re gonna draw the- You’re gonna draw the line. You can’t let him sit on your face. Or, when he does, you got to make it real bad, like he sits on your face and you go [makes a fart sound], [Mike laughs] like something real bad that’s just, like, makes it horrible. Like, technically you got it on your face but you- but he didn’t feel good about it. We’ll talk about this during the Patreon segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, let’s- You wanna take a break and talk about it?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Let’s take a break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Are we ready? Are we good? Are we missing anything?
KYLE GETZ
I think we’re good.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We’re going to do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do Gayest & Straightest, but first, our website is gayishpodcast.com. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
We are on social media, mainly. Our communities are Discord, or the Gayish community on our Facebook group, or Spaces, so join us there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline – you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails – is 5855-GAYISH. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Your voice is getting, just, to the homestretch. Just hang in there, and then it can peter out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Doing great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Uhhh, Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll go first.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, do it.
KYLE GETZ
My gayest is: when I washed my jeans I don’t dry them, because someone says that wears them out, so I turn them inside out and then hang dry them. Which, having a specific drying technique for your jeans feels kind of gay to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay, so, someone I used to live with taught me that he would just put his- instead of washing them at all, would just put his jeans in the freezer, that that would kill all of the germs so-
KYLE GETZ
And kill the bedbugs?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So- Yep. And just- And then it was fine.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know that I- Okay. I don’t know that I- Not that I’m too- I mean, I rarely- I mean, who am I to- [Mike laughs] I don’t know. Okay. My straightest. We already mentioned the whiskey drink that you made me, so instead I’ll go with, my straightest is: there are some, just, basic tasks that don’t feel gay or exciting, and they’re just things that you forget that gay people have to do in their lives. I had to like, call insurance about something, I had to call the unemployment line about something. I just do, like, basic boring shit, that you’re like “Being gay is fun, and you fuck all the time,” and it’s like, no, sometimes you have to call insurance and be like “Hi. It’s me. I’m a poor human.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Sometimes you have to get your oil changed. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Sometimes you have to get your oil changed, metaphorically, because I don’t have a car.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Dipstick.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] That’s rude!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Well, the straightest thing about me this week is so many hot toddies.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
They are full-on grandpa-style. [Kyle laughs] Like, it’s just-
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
They are hot and they are whiskey-y, and-
KYLE GETZ
And like, “toddy” is like- Yeah. “Hot toddy” is like- Who says that?
MIKE JOHNSON
It is 85+ year old-style. Okay. And then the gayest thing about me this week was uh, SNL this weekend had a sketch about women who had dated Drake.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And at the end they all held hands and they sang 525,600 Shawties, [Kyle laughs] and I was- like, my gay- I was indignant. I was like, “You can’t ruin that song! You get make Drake banging a bunch of chicks be that, like, that song from Rent! You can’t do that! That songs for us, that is not for you!”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Okay. I think it was Autostraddle, the website that I found this in, where they call- they said, because of a lyric in the song – I think I even read it on this podcast – they were like “He’s a he/him lesbian,” and I cannot- I can think of literally nothing- It was something like, “Oh, like, you like women? I do too,” or something that he said, like, “Oh yeah, like, I like women. Like, I’m a lesbian,” or something. They were like, he/him lesbians, were like, Drake. I just cannot think of anything else but that with him, and apparently, now, the Rent song.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also he’s hot.
KYLE GETZ
Also he’s hot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, we have a gayer- We have a…
KYLE GETZ
Do you need me to-
MIKE JOHNSON
…listener’s Gayest & Straightest. Oh my god.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Almost- We’re so fucking close, Mike. I’m so close, I’m so close, I’m so close.
MIKE JOHNSON
In the homestretch now. Stretch me out. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Um, so this is from our Discord server, and I’m going to read the full thing, which is very Mike of me. The context is: “This last week I was on a work trip to San Antonio for centrifuge training…” What the fuck does that mean? I have no idea, but it sounds very cool. You’re cooler than any of us. “…This is where they teach us”- Thank you. It’s spinning. “…This is where they teach us how to not pass out under high sustained G-forces (up to 7.5Gs) by putting us in a huge centrifuge and spinning us around.” Again, that explains technically, but not, like, are you a fucking astronaut? If so, you’re the coolest listener. Or maybe you just love being spun. Which gay doesn’t? Um, “Straightest: debating with another student the best ways to rope a cow from horseback”. Uh, “Gayest:”-
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Like, mult- I only- I only know of one way, which is to fail. Like- [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Which is to stare at the rope and be like “You’re not doing what I- You’re doing nothing.” Um, “Gayest: barely holding my shit together while the instructors kept spitting out these golden quotes while coaching us on our technique in the centrifuge:” Here are some of those quotes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, are you gonna put on your instructor voice for this?
KYLE GETZ
[speaking like a drill instructor] “Be on the offensive with your butt”!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
“Squeeze your cheeks like you’re going to pick up a cob of corn”!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God.
KYLE GETZ
“Legs, butts, abs – TIGHT”!
MIKE JOHNSON
Tight!
KYLE GETZ
“(spoken repeatedly as a mantra)” Legs, butt, abs – TIGHT! Legs, butt, abs – TIGHT! [laughs] I’ll say that too. “Get it TIGHT keep them TIGHT”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Get it right! Get it right, get it tight!
KYLE GETZ
So, thank you, Volente1.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you, Volente1.
KYLE GETZ
That was a- That was a beautiful Gayest & Straightest and I loved it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that it?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [sighs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you to Mohamed.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. Love him.
MIKE JOHNSON
There is one God but Allah, and Mohamed is his prophet.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, let’s post an image of him to show how much we care. [Mike laughs] Um, thank you to Mike’s voice for holding out, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, that’s a strong- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
For some of you, you like this voice better, and I’m gonna have to punch my throat from now on to replicate the experience. We’ll s-
MIKE JOHNSON
They might be into that too, actually.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, you know what? So much you’re all into, I- so excited about it. [Mike laughs] Um, I don’t know. Thank you, um, the uh, this fucking dude who I keep fucking forgetting his name, Dr. Nasser Mohamed; thank you for being out and being awesome. Also, thank you to our Super Gap Bridgers: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Thomas B, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for supporting us in the largest way we offer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you, even though we skipped a week.
KYLE GETZ
Yeahhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we don’t deserve your money, you’re still giving it to us.
KYLE GETZ
We dooo. Give it to uuuusss.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, that’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Are people who take selfies narcissist? Why do gays love selfies? Are we willing to die for selfies?
In this episode: News- 2:35 || Main Topic (Selfies)- 17:11 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:15:35
On the bonus segment, Mike and Kyle learn tips to improve their selfie game, and they take some selfies to see if it worked. Get bonus segments every Friday and other great benefits by joining at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello everyone in the podcast universe, this is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast where life always finds a way… to fuck you over. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Amen to that, brother. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…
KYLE GETZ
Today we’re talking about selfies.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re talking about selfies!
KYLE GETZ
God, I don’t want to- Do we have to do this episode?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes!
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes! Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, I’m excited.
MIKE JOHNSON
Otherwise…
KYLE GETZ
We would be very quiet.
MIKE JOHNSON
…we would be unemployed. [Kyle laughs] Which, thank you for that episode. I’m not Sarah, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah! Welcome back. [Mike laughs] You- So far, you’re- This is your test run to decide if we want you to keep cohosting, or, you know, if we’re gonna go a different direction.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well Kyle, I like to think of an interview as me interviewing you, in return. We’re interviewing each other.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, dual co-interviews?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
What if neither of us make the cut? [both laugh] We just leave, we just go home.
MIKE JOHNSON
It can be the Derek show after this, I guess. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, welcome back, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks. Yeah, I’ve been all over the world.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, like, [laughing] literally all over the world.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Do you- Oh, we’re gonna record our Patreon bonus episode soon, so that’s where you can hear our personal news updates, because we do that on the bonus episode every month.
MIKE JOHNSON
Look at you, shilling successfully. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
See? I’m doing good in my interview. I’m nailing my interview. You’re doing… fine. You’re doing- You’re meeting expectations, so far.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s really all I wanted.
KYLE GETZ
Right? [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, happy Thanksgiving, everybody! If you’re hearing this now, it’s Thanksgiving. If you’re not hearing it now, it’s later. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Okay, that was funny, you got your job. That was good. That’s really useful information that you provided. Umm, yeah. I hope you’re either enjoying your family, or avoiding your family, or you’ve found your chosen family, and that you are-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wherever you are, or who you’re with, feel bad about colonialism.
KYLE GETZ
Yeahhh. Let’s feel bad about colonialism together!
MIKE JOHNSON
Doing it.
KYLE GETZ
And be very full.
MIKE JOHNSON
Doing it right now.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Current- Actively feeling- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
We don’t have any feedback, or corrections.
KYLE GETZ
Well, we surely do in our inbox, but not from our mouths to your ears.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, so, here come-
KYLE GETZ
From a babe’s mouth, to the lips, ears.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here comes the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so I’ve been- I’ve been out of the country, did I miss anything?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
We- We have to- We have- We have to- We have to talk about…
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We have to talk about Club Q, and it’s gonna be sad. News the first: Club Q.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
More- Yet another- Yet another mass shooting in a queer space in this fucked-up stupid-ass country filled with dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, yeah- [sighs] Yeah. At least five people were killed, and more than 20 people were injured as a gunman entered the Club Q queer venue and safe space in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And, um, this was Saturday, so just last weekend, and um, [sighs] of course everybody’s having repeat feelings of the Pulse club shooting in Orlando.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, I- [sighs] I don’t- I don’t know- I don’t know what to do, Kyle. I don’t know what to say.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the second- No, I- [chuckles] Like, it’s horrific, and terrible, and clearly clearly motivated by hate. Um-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, it was a MAGA republican’s son or something, that, like- It is so- It’s frustrating because we see the direct connection, we know exactly what’s happening. It’s horrific, and shocking, and terrifying, and also so easy to draw the direct line between what Republicans are saying about us, and the violence against us, but it’s such a helpless feeling. I think that’s part of why, like- I mean, people have already given so many of their takes as it happened, so that’s part of it, but also, like, it’s such a powerless feeling, and what do you say? Like, there’s nothing that makes any of this better, and nothing on an individual level that I can go and do. I mean, the most I can do is try to say something meaningful, but I have nothing meaningful to say. It’s just a helpless, horrible feeling, that you just- I don’t know. You just feel trapped and, like, that’s just what has to happen. Like, it just feels like there’s no way out of this, and it sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, um, [chuckles] it’s really… hopeless… feeling.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I agree. Apparently- Apparently the gunman was subdued by people in the club, and, one of which was a drag queen who apparently, like, stood on him with her heels.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I’m loving the memes going around about, like, a drag queen could do what dozens and dozens of Uvalde police officers with multimillion-dollar budget couldn’t.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other one was, like, an Army vet that, like, subdued him. So- I mean, that part of it is like, we take care of ourselves, we have to, because other people are not taking care of our community right now. So like, to me, that’s one of the reminders. People are walking- are invading our spaces and making places – everywhere; online, bars, political arenas – like, are making us more and more unsafe every day. And we have to- We have to look out for our community, unfortunately, and- because others won’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Um… I dunno, I- I did, like, the only thing I could think of to do. Like, I posted in the Facebook group, and it was just like, “Your existence is an act of resistance.” I think, when you feel helpless, reminding yourself that to whatever degree you’re able to be out or be yourself, like, whatever that means to you, remind- I have to remind myself, like, my existence, my being open about being gay, my being authentic, is part of, like, an action that is resistance. So, it’s not that I’m doing nothing, I am and existing, and existing- or, working to find happiness, working on your own personal happiness, that is also resistance, because that is something they do not want us to have.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So – and, you know – I went to a gay bar last night with a friend, so that was kind of a… I just wanted to be like, “Fuck you. You don’t get to decide where I feel safe, and if I get to go out.” And, I don’t know, that was kinda- took my dog for a walk, that was like my trying to care for myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I like that. I went out and got laid.
KYLE GETZ
That’s resist- [Mike laughs] I mean, fucking is resistance, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Did you really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Who?
MIKE JOHNSON
In Buenos Aires.
KYLE GETZ
What’s his- What’s his name?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m not gonna go into that right now.
KYLE GETZ
Describe his body, [Mike laughs] from the top to the bottom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well- Okay, first of all, why are we talking about this now? That’s- Anyway. Uh, older. He’s older than me. That’s not a thing I do.
KYLE GETZ
Oooh, that’s rare!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
See our episode about younger guys with Davey Wavey.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Is this the right time to be plugging ourselves like this? [laughing] That’s- That’s gross that I just did that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Or maybe it is. Listen to gay shit, and do gay shit, and feel good about-
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I think getting fucked is resistance. Oh, I don’t know what you did specifically, but whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was resisting. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
As part of consensual BDSM play? [Mike continues laughing] Okay, just wanted to make sure- make- add the consensual part, for- What are we doing? We’re avoiding-
MIKE JOHNSON
To wrap this horrific story up: I agree with you.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] End of- Great! End of podcast, we don’t need to do any more. Sorry. Okay, what were you actually saying?
MIKE JOHNSON
Be happy. Do something gay and be happy, because that’s what they hate the most, I think is- is hard to grab on to, but valuable. And, so, let’s try to do a gay-ass podcast and have some laughs or something.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, I mean, is selfies gonna be a fun topic? It’s not gonna be, for me. I forgot that I actually have to talk about this now. But, yeah. Well, yeah, we’ll do some gay shit together.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. [both snort] News the second?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. News the second: So, there were seven European soccer teams that are doing the FIFA World Cup right now, who wanted to wear pro-LGBTQ+ armbands on the field, and uh-
KYLE GETZ
The fact that you described playing soccer as “doing” soccer- [laughing] Like, just- Like, “they’re doing the FIFA,” or whatever you said.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re- Yeah. They’re, you know, they’re doing it.
KYLE GETZ
They’re doing FIFA, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh- But FIFA said “We will give you a yellow card if you do that,” so the European Football Association released a statement that advised players, quote, “not to attempt to wear the armbands in FIFA World Cup games,” and the FIFA officials have said that they have zero tolerance of the One Love campaign, which, those are the armbands that they wanted to wear. They said “ONE LOVE” on them. They have already been used in the past, so Harry Kane, who’s one of the English players, who’s on England’s team, had worn one against Iran. No, I am lying to you. It was the opener against Iran that was the one that they were threatened with being penalized for. A yellow card is used to caution players, and a red card means that they get kicked out of the game. And, uh- So, instead he wore one that says “NO DISCRIMINATION”. Where did my picture of that go? I had a picture of this thing.
KYLE GETZ
That’s helpful for this audio podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, he did wear an armband and that one was approved, but instead of being a One Love and rainbows, like, gay shit on it, it’s just black and it says “NO DISCRIMINATION”. And- Which is fine. You’re doing something, and we know, but, you know, apparently your rainbow was too much for FIFA and the host country of Qatar. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I can’t. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
I can’t either, but I’ve been listening a lot to like, how the fuck do you fucking say that country?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the best I can approximate. Qatar.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, I struggle with people that are even attending this, like, the teams themselves. If all the team said “We are not playing in this,” they would have to change it. Like, they could get together, and they have the power to do something, and they have decided not to. Which, I mean, you worked so hard for something in your life, I’m not trying to diminish the fact that people have worked and that that could risk them not getting to play in this thing that they worked so hard for, but also, it’s real fucked up that they picked a country that doesn’t allow people to be gay and are pretending like that’s us being intolerant.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And have used slave labor to set up the- to build the place. I don’t know too much about that, other than that. But like, it’s just real fucked up, and, I mean, just like a lot of things, like, people have the power if they wanted to, and even wearing an armband is- Like, take the fucking yellow card! I don’t know. I’m frustrated by everything in life, including this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Enjoy your $8.50 nonalcoholic beers, you fuckers.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I just- Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah, take the yellow card and then behave, maybe, is one way to do that. So, a statement released to Reuters said, quote, “FIFA has been very clear that it will impose sporting sanctions if our captains wear the armbands on the field of play. As national federations, we can’t put our players in a position where they could face sporting sanctions including bookings, so we have asked the captains not to attempt to wear the armbands in FIFA World Cup games.” And, just- Maybe just don’t play at all? I- I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s also just a game, at the end of the day. Like, I know that there’s lots of money wrapped up in professional sports, and blah blah blah, and bliggity blahggity, but, like, fuck.
KYLE GETZ
It’s a game, and this is our lives.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly. Exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well-
KYLE GETZ
But- I mean, like, the trouble I get into is like, that can be so many things. Like, I shouldn’t buy anything from China then because of the labor that they use to make that is so- Like, I don’t know, they’re- Like, you could- To be- To pay attention to every single issue in the world, and be kind of this model person that follows and doesn’t- Like, it is so difficult because things can be so shitty, and there’s- No one is- When you exist within this system, that, like- How do you participate in this capitalist, systemically racist system in a way that makes you feel good? I don’t know. I get that it’s difficult, but, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s not. I- This is what I go back and forth. Or maybe just don’t fucking play at this, and say fuck you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody! [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Merry fucking Thanksgiving! Eat your fucking turkey!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, Jesus. Pass out already. [Kyle laughs] Okay, news the last.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think- I think It’s a happy story, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
The fact that you’re not sure of it has me worried!
MIKE JOHNSON
Um… Grindr has made its [Kyle laughs] public debut on the New York Stock Exchange, on Friday-
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
-with an opening price of $16.90 a share. It closed at $71.50.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently- Yeah. The ticker symbol is GRND, and, yeah, apparently people are bullish on us fuckin’. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Great, they have high hopes. Well, I think they have high hopes for spending a bunch of time- Like, you make more money if we spend a bunch of time there and don’t find someone, like, ‘cause then they get to serve their ads more. So, I think they’re bullish on the- the [laughs] hopelessness that is [Mike laughs] searching for dating in the gay world. God, I- I ruined this story that you wanted to be happy.
MIKE JOHNSON
They just- They just know that we can’t quit Grindr.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. Oh, well I can ‘cause I’m not allowed on it. So, they- My hand was forced. My dick was forced.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s right. Well, maybe you should buy some shares then, [laughs] and see if that’ll get you back on the platform.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, but then, this is another thing where it’s like, okay but if you use Grindr, like, the CEO has- is both gay and has, like, talked about voting Republican, like, and is right wing. Like, wha- So then, do you not use Grindr? It’s like, everything in our lives is- Okay, no. It’s happy! People are buying the stock! Cool! Grindr’s on the market! [Mike laughing] Hook up! I don’t-…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God. We did it. [both laughing]
KYLE GETZ
That’s the end of the news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Successful. Successful. Yeah, uh-
KYLE GETZ
…Ssssspeaking of other people, is that really-
MIKE JOHNSON
No, the other hookup apps that are on the NYSE are Match and Bumble, which I didn’t know until this ‘cause those are for straight people and I don’t read the news about them. But uh, yeah, apparently Grindr had 11 million monthly users last year, and had a revenue growth of 30%, and it’s just- it’s really- it’s really interesting. There are very few stock ticker symbols that are that overtly and openly queer.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and especially queer sex, like, that like sexual of a company is very interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. And plus, if it’s GRND, like, how many people think it’s “grind,” or, like, “ground,” or, what else could they might- Tatley-Grund, the elevator company? I just- I love the idea of, like, Republicans investing in Grindr not knowing what the ticker symbol means.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s part of a portfolio, [Mike laughs] and they accidentally own, like- They- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, that’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
Um, speaking of people I’m bullish on, I would like to thank the following Patreon members. Why did- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why did what happen?
KYLE GETZ
I- I heard myself say it, but like, in a delay, but not really, just in my head. I heard my sentence and I got confused. It’s okay. I’m here. I’m here, and I’m excited, and I’m happy to be here, [Mike laughs] and everything’s wonderful. Thank you to: Beth McColl-
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Beth.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks, Beth. Uh, James McQuillen, probably? Uh, josue Daniel Martinez-
MIKE JOHNSON
Ooo!
KYLE GETZ
Whoa! And Ben KyleCan’tPronounceThisName.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Wait, is that what they wrote down?
KYLE GETZ
That’s what they wrote down.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Yes!
KYLE GETZ
All one word. KyleCan’tPronounceThisName. Thanks, Ben!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, Ben! Ben. Ben. Ben.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you. Join Patreon if you want. Patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it.
KYLE GETZ
Um, do you want to talk about selfies?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about selfies.
KYLE GETZ
Do you- I mean-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, first.
KYLE GETZ
First.
MIKE JOHNSON
The reason we did this episode-
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
-I forgot, [Kyle chuckles] until just now.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s because we got a bunch of photographs taken. Which, they came back and they are adorable, and so we’re gonna post some to our socials.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re not selfies, they’re photographs, but that got us talking about photographs, and photography, and-
KYLE GETZ
and selfies is kind of gay. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Selfies is kind of gay, especially if the mirror is dirty and you’ve got no clothes on. But-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, you- Oh my god, [Mike laughs] a top with no shirt and a dirty mirror is gonna fuck so good.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Um, they just got, like, shit all over their sink counter, and it’s just like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, not literal shit. That’s-
KYLE GETZ
No, don’t- This is your PSA: don’t poop in your sink. [Mike laughs] Mike, let’s do better. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Who are we?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s be better and do better. This is our first time being in person in a long time.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s also my fault ‘cause we’re recording on Monday instead of Sunday, because I was a zombie person yesterday after time zone bullshit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, the time zone bullshit’s still strong, but-
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know what my excuse is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, yeah, we- And we’ve done things like- When a magazine interviewed us, they wanted to like, include us, and they were like, “Can you send us photos?” and it was like, “No, we cannot.” [both laugh] Someone actually just asked me for like a hi-res photo of myself, and I was like, I- So now we finally have things. So, that was a very useful thing, that we should’ve had. I feel like – okay, this relates to selfies and just gays in general – I feel like most gays put on this image of themselves. I think most other gay podcasts would have done this kind of thing to – I don’t know – because they want- because they’re a little bit narcissistic, or they want to pretend like they’re amazing, or they want any excuse to take nice photographs. Like, we’re five and a half years in and we’re like, “We should have pictures of us available.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [both laugh] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I just feel like that’s part of the thing that I don’t fit, of like, wanting to have pictures of myself, or, like- I don’t know. I just don’t- This is not something I relate to about the gay community.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and then, when our absolutely adorable photographer got here, and, [Kyle chuckles] like, whipped his camera out, both of us were like, “Oh, that’s- I don’t- I don’t like that.”
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, “That’s uncomfortable.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, it’s like-
MIKE JOHNSON
We clearly are bad at this. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Like, “Hey, I’m hot, I’m taking a picture of you,” and you’re like “What? Why?” Like, I don’t know-
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you, to that- I didn’t- I mean- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
I hated looking at our pictures.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. Well great. [Kyle laughs] I think they’re adorable.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. You be the judge, listener.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, I will be the judge.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, Mike will be- Mike has judged.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re adorable.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- Okay. Who are we, why are we here?
KYLE GETZ
You’re doing- You’re probably doing the history.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna talk about the history of selfies, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the dumbest sentence I’ve ever heard, [Mike laughs] but go on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well-
KYLE GETZ
Sarah, where are you? [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so first, I definitely want to calibrate on, what’s a selfie, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
I knew you would! God. Mike, we all know what a selfie is!
MIKE JOHNSON
What is it?
KYLE GETZ
It’s a picture you take yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
A picture you take of yourself. Do you have to operate the camera, or just be the- Like, if it’s on a timer, does that count?
KYLE GETZ
Is this interesting, [laughs] is my big question.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think it is.
KYLE GETZ
If it- You do? Okay. Alright. Sure. Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
If I didn’t think it was interesting I wouldn’t talk about it, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, you- You think everything you talk about is interesting?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yes. Our pictures are fine, and I am amazing. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Okay. I guess- You know what? Alright. That’s fine. [chuckles] Okay- It is specifically, like, when you are holding the camera in your phone – nope – you’re holding the camera in your hand, and you’re taking a picture yourself. So it’s not, set it down and let me back away, it’s, like, you’re holding the phone in your hand and you’re taking a picture yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Predominantly to post onto social media. That’s what I think of a selfie as.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
What do you think of a selfie as?
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs]
KYLE GETZ
Wow, that’s too deep a sigh for the definition of the word “selfie”. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, I definitely- I agree with you. Like, the modern definition of the word “selfie” is a smartphone, likely, taking a photograph with it in your hand as the executor. Although, selfie sticks count, even though you’re not touching the device, you’re touching a device that’s touching the device. Anyway. And yeah, that’s largely what the implied meaning is now, or whatever, but we’ve only had the ability to do that for so long, but we’ve been taking pictures of ourselves, like, since the very first day that photographs could be taken it’s been happening. And the guy that is largely given credit for inventing the selfie, [Kyle chuckles] taking a photograph of himself, is a dude named Robert Cornelius.
KYLE GETZ
[in an old-timey, uptight, British(?) voice] Robert Cornelius!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yep.
KYLE GETZ
God, he had generational wealth for sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, did he?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah?
KYLE GETZ
[doing the voice again] I’m Robert Cornelius, I have a photograph and opinions on the lower class.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, he’s American, so, you can- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[still doing the voice] And he’s- But he still talked like this! [speaking normally] And everyone’s like, “Who are you, Frasier? Like, why do you talk like that?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Why did he have an accent?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckling] I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nobody knows. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Anyone who’s done like Shakespeare, like, who- Like, people in Star Trek that also have like weird accents that you’re like, “You’re from Missouri. Like, you’re fine,” [Mike laughs] and you know what? I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, he took the first- he took the selfie in 1839.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
And the reason I think it counts as a selfie-
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
-is there was no timer.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
He actually had to, like, push the button on the camera, but it wasn’t a button. He made a daguerreotype. He had to, like, operate the camera manually, but it took so long to take pictures he just set the camera up, opened the lens, and then walked in front of the camera, and then had to stand still for – it’s estimated – at least three minutes, but more likely 10 to 15 minutes, perfectly still, to take this selfie.
KYLE GETZ
Damn. And that’s, like- Even if it’s just three minutes, that’s a long time. To demonstrate how long that feels, we’re gonna be silent for three minutes, [Mike laughs] starting… now!
[6 seconds pass, with hushed laughter]
MIKE JOHNSON
[both laughing] I wager- I’m gonna wager that you think this is more interesting than me talking about anything that I have on my notes here. So.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the- I just realized [Mike laughing] that that’s the meanest insult I’ve ever accidentally done to you, and I’m kind of proud of myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m proud of you too. Oh, that’s- that’s great.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] Instead of whatever Mike’s saying. [Mike laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God.
KYLE GETZ
No, no, no, no, no, I’m with you. I’m excited. You seem to be picking up on the timer thing as like a big- an important aspect of selfies, which I don’t think of, like, caring whether there’s a timer or not.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think that I keep running into the word “selfie” being used to mean any picture in which the owner of the camera is in it, regardless of how it was taken, and it kind of frustrates me, because I’m pedantic and that shit pisses me off.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So people are like, “Let’s take a selfie,” and then they set their phone up, and they put the timer on, and then they hit it, and then they get in a big group photo. That’s not a fucking selfie, it’s a group photo that you took with a timer!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You whore.
KYLE GETZ
I- [laughs] Wow. [Mike laughs] But, you can take a selfie with, like, with one other person. Like, how many people before it’s not a selfie?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, okay, okay. This is- I meant to talk about this later.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, sorry. We can- We can go in your order.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, no, no, no.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
No. So- So “selfie”-
KYLE GETZ
3 minutes is up… now! [chuckles] I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Great. Huawei Technologies, which is a company that makes cell phones in China-
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
-actually [chuckles] owns the trademark on the term “groufie”-
KYLE GETZ
Ewwww.
MIKE JOHNSON
-because they were trying to say that any selfie that is of a group of people is a groufie, and they- they trademarked it in 2014. That’s about when the modern use of the word “selfie” was becoming all the rage.
KYLE GETZ
2014? Huh!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. They say 2012 or 2013 is like the year of the selfie, in terms of, like, it entering the lexicon.
KYLE GETZ
I thought it was before that.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, uh, Huawei- [chuckles] Huawei trademarked the term “groufie” to mean more than just the person taking the picture in it. And another term, that Samsung tried to trademark, was a “wefie”. Like, “We are taking a selfie,” it’s a we-fie. Those are awful and you should not have paid for them, either company.
KYLE GETZ
Nooo. No. But like, when you’re a big company that has bunch of money, like, I would probably just trademark random shit. I would, like, mash letters like I’m a cat walking over a keyboard, and be like, “Cool. This is what I’m trademarking now, because I’m bored and have tons of money. I’m a corporation.” [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. They’ve got to park all these domains-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and hope that somebody- somebody named Woodriblahblah [Kyle laughs] becomes really famous someday.
KYLE GETZ
Ah, he’s my new favorite musical artist, is Woodrbvbahbadah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Woodriblahblah.com; I own it, bitch. Deal with that.
KYLE GETZ
Can you imagine the frustration, where you’re like, “No one will have my domain. It’s me, Woodrbabahbadablah”? [both laugh] Um, I had the same question about sex: How many people until it’s a group… or a groufie?
MIKE JOHNSON
Three.
KYLE GETZ
I think it’s four. I don’t think three is a group.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because we have a name for it, and that’s “a threesome”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, kind of. But still, I think- That doesn’t feel groupish to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Alright.
KYLE GETZ
I think it has to be four- I’ve said this about the porn one before, if you are looking for group sex and you find three people, like, you’re kind of annoyed, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Okay.
KYLE GETZ
It’s like, that’s- Wait- No, I- Group. So I think that’s a good measure of, like, what’s a group. I think it has to be four or more.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Is- Okay.
KYLE GETZ
There’s gonna be a poll on our Instagram about if- [laughs] what constitutes a group.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. How many people do you need to take pictures of a group sex situation?
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] How many times can you say “groufie” before it catches on? [Mike laughs] The limit does not exist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, no. Stop trying to make fetch happen. [Kyle laughs] Umm… Okay, okay, okay, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, to your point that you just made a little bit ago-
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I made a point somewhere in there?
MIKE JOHNSON
-the first use of the word selfie in anywhere that we can find was on an Australian Internet forum on 13th of September 2002.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s a guy named Karl Kruszelnicki.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’s pretty much what we were saying! [Mike laughs] Like, that’s- Someone named him by mashing the keyboard for sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It was a Polish keyboard, but yes. [Kyle laughs] Um, but he runs the Dr Karl’s Self Serve Science Forum- [TN: Self Service, not Self Serve]
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
-and a dude named Nathan Hope posted to that forum, and said, quote, “Um, drunk at a mates 21st, I tripped…” “…and landed lip first (with front teeth coming a very close second) on a set of steps. I had a hole about 1cm long right through my bottom lip. And sorry about the focus, it was a selfie.” That’s the earliest we can find.
KYLE GETZ
God, if I invented something as big as the word “selfie”, or I’m the first, like, thing you find, I’d be bragging. Like, that would be in my Twitter bio. I would be, like, bragging about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, somebody tracked Mr. Hope down – Nathan Hope down – and asked him, and he said “I did not coin the term.” He said, quote, it was “something that was just common slang at the time, used to describe a picture of yourself.” So we don’t actually- Like, nobody invented it. It was enough- It was invented enough that he just threw it out there in this forum post and figured that people would already know what he meant.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Man, good for him, being honest. I- God, I- No, I- I don’t know. I would- I just want…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, if somebody comes to you and says, “Did you make this cultural phenomenon happen? We think you did,” then say “Yes.” [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh, you have proof- You have no proof that anyone else said it before?
MIKE JOHNSON & KYLE GETZ
[in unison] Then yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
I did that! Fuck you, pay me! [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I was just gonna say, like, I want attention and recognition enough that I would probably say yes to that, but I don’t know if that’s true or if that’s just fake-me talking right now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay, so, there is- Going back to the history stuff, and then I’ll end the segment. There was a woman in the year… we think it was 1900, we don’t know her name, but it’s a very, very old picture, and she is holding a camera taking a picture of herself via a mirror. And, if you don’t think that dude, the first dude, Cornelius, took the- if you don’t think that counted is a selfie because he walked away from the camera, this bitch was actually holding the camera, pushed the button, picture of herself in a mirror. So we’ve been doing this shit for 122 years or whatever, so.
KYLE GETZ
We always say that gay culture comes- like, starts with women or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Right?
KYLE GETZ
Like, a woman was the first gay man to take a picture [laughs] in the mirror.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, there’s a dude named Thomas Eakins who did a bunch of work. It’s controversial whether he was gay or not, but his- a lot of his photography was of naked dudes, and naked dudes doing stuff. He took a whole bunch of selfies in which he was posing with a woman, and that has led to a lot of academic analysis of, like, “Was this dude gay, or not?” and I think it’s interesting. We make this point all the time; nobody seems to be asking the question, “Well, maybe he was bi?” But he took a lot of pictures of naked people, and- including himself. A lot of- A lot of- But that’s the first, like, probably gay naked-selfie-taker that I could find in all of the history of it.
KYLE GETZ
Hm, Interesting. When was that?
MIKE JOHNSON
His name is Thomas Eakins, and his- most of his career was started in the in the 1870s. A lot of the stuff that I’m talking about with the nudity, and the ladies, and stuff, was in 1883, and uh-
KYLE GETZ
1883…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a long time ago.
MIKE JOHNSON
Boy howdy. [Kyle chuckles] [Mike sighs] Well, you know- As long as- Every media form, at least every visual media form, the dicks have led, fairly early on.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dicks and boobs have been like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-at the vanguard, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep, yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ummm, okay. In 1934, a Swedish couple use a wooden stick to take a picture of themselves, [Kyle gasps] and the New York Times called that the original selfie stick.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I-
MIKE JOHNSON
Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I say that a selfie stick is a dildo.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the funniest joke you’ve written.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think about that all the time.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. I find you mildly amusing most of the time-
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] At times. Okay, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and that is fucking hilarious. Um- Oh, okay. The OED picked- So, then, all of the stuff that I was saying about this blog, and the invention of the word, it was added to the OED in 2013. It was officially added as a Scrabble word, and that’s how you know you’ve made it-
KYLE GETZ
Wow, even scrabble.
MIKE JOHNSON
-in 2014.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh, it’s been with us ever since. Duck faces, and apparently bear faces, and all.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We just learned about bear- I did not know about “bear face” until Derek informed me today.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m gonna have to practice both, I guess, now.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I didn’t know bears had a face.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do photo booths count?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. That- [Kyle laughs] Now we don’t have to talk about Japanese culture in the 90s, or the fact that the Gameboy had a selfie camera on it.
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Anyway-
KYLE GETZ
Do you count photo booths?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t think so.
KYLE GETZ
It’s just such a specific, different, thing. When I think “selfie”, that’s not what I’m picturing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. And selfies also are sort of- The modern connotation of the word “selfie” is sort of attached to social media,
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and photos have been around for fucking ever, so I have a hard time thinking that they count because of that.
KYLE GETZ
Did the word “selfie” run away from us when boomers started hearing about it? Like, I could picture that being something, like, we were using in a specific way, and then boomers hear about something and they’re like, [doing an old person voice] “Oh, look, I took a selfie,” and it’s a photo of their dog or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
So if you think of a- the success of a selfie as being tied to how it did on Twitter, [Kyle chuckles] the two biggest selfies that caught this wave were: Barack Obama took a selfie and posted it to Twitter the night that he was elected-
KYLE GETZ
Oooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and then Ellen DeGeneres took a selfie with a fuck-ton of celebrities in the background when she hosted the Oscars. So, they’re not quite boomer, right?
KYLE GETZ
Right.
KYLE GETZ
But they’re definitely- they weren’t spring chickens. They weren’t teenagers, Snapchatting around. Like, they-
KYLE GETZ
They weren’t A-list like Selena Gomez.
MIKE JOHNSON
So they- [laughs] They sort of- Yeah, selfies, I think, maybe that’s when they jumped the shark. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, mhm. Hm! Can I tell you some of the gayta?
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to hear the gayta.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, this is-
MIKE JOHNSON
Are selfies gay?
KYLE GETZ
Are selfies gay? I don’t- [both laugh] That’s an interesting question, Mike, the question I’m gonna answer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, are selfie-takers narcissistic?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. Great segment. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Honestly. Honestly, if we wanted to boil it down. Okay, so I looked up- I’m gonna tell you about some of the studies and some of the journeys that I took along the way to some information. So, I don’t- This is- Thank you for that history, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
I appreciate you, and your segments.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re welcome. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Because now, here, I’m about to do something that’s like, this is interesting to me, and maybe not anyone, [chuckles] so I can’t be too mean. I was just very mean to you about your choices, but I’ve made choices too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the thing: they’re gonna continue.
KYLE GETZ
I know, right? [Mike laughs] For both of us. Um, look, during our segment I drew a fish. Okay! Umm, so-
MIKE JOHNSON
Is it taking a selfie?
KYLE GETZ
It- No, I colored- I don’t know what it is. Or it could be a lady dancing. [gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Is it a Jesus fish?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah. Oh, that’s the other update, I’ve converted.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Umm, studies. This is- Apparently it is, like, a big thing, in the 10s and 20s of this millennia – that sounds weird to say – in this decade and the previous one, people have been doing a lot of research into whether people that take selfies are narcissistic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, I learned a little bit about narcissism in general. I didn’t- I was unaware that there are, like, not- There’s a narcissistic personality disorder.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But different than that, just as a personality trait, is narcissism, and that’s what I’m talking about, not the disorder.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, we’re all narcissistic, right? It’s a spectrum. Like, it’s just a- It’s only a problem if it gets past the level of you being an asshole.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, there’s a healthy level of narcissism, of caring about yourself, and like that’s useful. There are two types that are, like, maybe there are a bunch more types, but studies broke down the- typically they were focused on grandiose narcissists, which is the kind that you generally think of.
MIKE JOHNSON
[fake coughs] Trump.
KYLE GETZ
Elon Musk. [Mike chuckles] Um, yep. Things that characterize them: aggression, dominance, superiority, entitlement. These are all the words that definitions would use for that. The other type though that they mentioned, I did not think of this, they’re kind of different venues to narcissism. One is, vulnerable narcissism.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ooo.
KYLE GETZ
Also called hypersensitive narcissism, or covert narcissism. It is hypersensitivity to the opinions of others, and intense desire for approval, defensiveness for any kind of critique. There- It’s almost like- It felt, to me, I was like, [doing a nasally voice] “Eugh, I… have this.” [Mike laughs] There’s like a- There’s a self-centeredness to social anxiety that I have, is like “Oh, everyone’s watching me.” There is, like, some level of, like, narcissism. I was like, “No, not everyone is watching you or gives a shit about all the things you do day-to-day.” There’s a weird- It’s weird, because I both have a very low – generally, I’m working on it – low opinion of myself, but also think that everyone cares about me, or is staring at me, or whatever. So I’ve- This is the first time I’ve seen like a definition that is, like- combines those in, like, the way that kind of makes sense to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, sure, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, this is more focused on the grandiose narcissists.
MIKE JOHNSON
The ones we think of.
KYLE GETZ
The ones you think of, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The study “‘Selfie-ists’ or ‘Narci-selfiers’?:” – wow, that’s a mouthful – “A cross-lagged panel analysis of selfie taking and narcissism”, in 2016, they proposed there was a self-reinforcement effect, and that narcissistic individuals take selfies more frequently over time, and that increase in taking selfies raises their level of narcissism. So it’s this feedback loop that increases both narcissism and the number of selfies that they take.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Another study, called “Narcissism and problematic use of social media: A systematic literature review”, [TN: Proper title is “Narcissism and problematic social media use: A systematic literature review”] in 2020, talked about some of the reasons that social media is good for grandiose narcissists, is they have control over their presentation, so you are, unlike a social interaction, you are in complete control over what you are presenting to people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep.
KYLE GETZ
You advertise your success, and- You can advertise your success, and you get visible rewards in response.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it’s accessible because so many of us have phones, with the internet, you can do it from wherever. So you can get this kind of validation wherever you are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, generally, like, I’ve looked at a bunch of different studies, and generally, like, yes. The answer is yes, people- when you take selfies it is- people are- People that take selfies are narcissistic.
MIKE JOHNSON
What surprises me about all of that though is the feedback loop. Like, the fact that it’s not just, like, this is a thing narcissists are drawn to, but that it’s a thing that can make them worse-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-or maybe make a person who isn’t narcissistic enough to be an asshole, become an asshole.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- I don’t know. In my head, I have this, like, weird – not weird – I have this belief that, like, people are just fundamentally broken-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Oh, God.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and that they don’t really ever change, and, so that smacks up against that a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
No, social media breaks you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I guess so.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, if you think about if, like, people can-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wreck me, daddy. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Wreck me, Twitter! Ruin my ego.
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs] Oh, God. Is that what you named your hole. [both laugh] Your ego?
KYLE GETZ
My ego? Wreck me in the ego. There is more to selfies than just narcissism though.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I looked at a study called “This Is Who I Am: The Selfie as a Personal and Social Identity Marker”, in 2019. It said, quote, “Based on social identity theory, this survey of young adults examined how selfies signify forms of personal and social identity.” So, I didn’t know what social identity theory is. I’m going to take a brief trip to social-identity-theory-land because this is, like- I don’t know why- how, in five and a half years we have not talked about it, because this literally is like the basis of why stereotypes exist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
This is like the theory and the, like, social constructs that make stereotypes happen. [chuckles] So, an article that gave an overview of this was on Simply Psych-o-logy…
MIKE JOHNSON
Simply psycho-logy? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s not how you say that word. I was- I needed to read the full word first before I realized which one this was.
MIKE JOHNSON
Take another run at it.
KYLE GETZ
Simplepsychology.org. [TN: it’s simplypsychology.org]
MIKE JOHNSON
Nailed it.
KYLE GETZ
Got it. [both chuckle] I think I’m good.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I’m not- I’m not broken. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m good. Do I- Do you want to keep doing this, like, in general? [Mike laughs] Do you think this is a good idea?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Are we a good idea? Okay. [takes a deep breath and slowly releases it] [clears throat] I need to do my warmups again. [hums a partial scale] The portion of an individual- The definition, is the portion of an individual’s self-concept derived from perceived memberships in relevant social groups. This theory was proposed by social psychologists Henri Tajfel and John Turner in the 1970s and 80s. They proposed that stereotyping, meaning putting people into groups and categories, is based on a normal- Stereotypes, we categorize people, as a normal process. We categorize things, that’s how our brains work, that’s how we make sense of the world, so it’s important, it’s a normal process. We have a tendency to group people together in this cognitive process, and in doing so we exaggerate the differences between groups and the similarities between things within the same group, which, that, I mean, I think I’ve been- I feel like recently I’ve particularly been talking about how, like, you- A study finds that someone is more likely to do a thing, and then we’re like, “Oh, everyone does that.” I think that’s- I think that comes from- I think this is in that same realm of overly-assuming that everyone does a thing within a group, overly-assuming similarities.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, that overused saying about “Most stereotypes are grounded in some kind of truth.”
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes. And oftentimes, I mean, we do see so many stereotypes that are based on something, some kind of truth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And there are three stages of the evaluation process. First, the social categorization. That’s the categorization we do to understand ourselves and others, and we start to learn group norms. The second step is social identification. We adopt the identity of the group we are in, we start to act in the way that meets the expectations of the group, we get emotionally invested, it is emotionally significant to us to be a part of that group, and our self-esteem becomes tied to that group. And then social comparison. So we compare our group to other groups, and there’s a desire for our group to remain favorable, to have good- present well, be good, and- because we belong to it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Be good
KYLE GETZ
Be good. [Mike laughs] So, I-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s exactly what we talk about all the time, right? Like, the things that we did when we were first entering the gay community that we felt like we needed to, because that’s what the gay community was about. Like, there’s another- Like, there’s a feedback loop there as well, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. And it’s- Yes. Yeah. And this is like, oh, this is the, like, this is the theory that is the foundation of exactly what we’re talking about, so I felt like I wanted to include that. Yeah. And I do think that- Exactly. We said, like, I think especially when you come out you don’t feel- Like, being LGBT, like, you- I don’t think you automatically am like, “Cool. I’m in the community,” I feel like when you’re coming out you’re like, “Eugh, I’m allowed- Am I allowed to call myself part of the community, or not?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you don’t- Like, okay, even once you’ve accepted that you’re gay, it feels like another step to get to, like, “Okay, I belong. I feel confident saying I’m in it,” I think that takes some time, and I think that- So that’s the like, social identification, that second step where you start to become a part of the group. And yeah, you’re learning what other people are doing, because it’s a new group that you are- you were not born believing you’re a part of this group. Oftentimes, you know, it’s when you’re older and you don’t know the norms, and, yeah, you start to pick up what other people are doing, and believe that you have to do certain things to be part of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, yeah, this- Like, we should have an entire- We should have someone smart on, to actually describe the social identity theory, because that’s, like, that’s literally we talk about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, back to the study.
MIKE JOHNSON
Back to the study.
KYLE GETZ
The study was saying that- it’s part of the reason this came up. It is based on social identity theory that people take selfies to show their personal and social identities. So, some of the actual findings that I thought were fun to share: participants reported they take selfies to say something about who they are, to connect with others, to feel better about themselves, and to feel empowered. That’s what the finding was. There’s like, over 400 people they surveyed, and those were the things that- the reasons why people take selfies. I never feel better about myself when I take a selfie. What do- Do you? I guess we haven’t talked about, like, whether we do this or not. We can. Do you take selfies, often? Do you like them? How do you feel about them?
MIKE JOHNSON
Not- Not often. Sometimes. I find that I tend to- they go in clusters. Like, I’ll go through a week where like, I take a few, and then I won’t for a really long time. I don’t take a lot of pictures in general, and I don’t know if that’s a Gen X thing or what, but like, traveling around- Like, I just got back from this crazy whirlwind tour of the of the world. All the pictures- Marci took all the pictures, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I followed- I followed because you just, on Instagram, reposted her picture. That’s how I, like, figure out what you were doing.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just not my first instinct. It’s just not.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, um- But I’m not- It’s not like I don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, I just don’t very often.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I was- Do you- So, during those phases where do you do take it, do you- what is the reason? Do any of those fit with you, uh, “say something about who they are, connect with others, feel better about themselves, feel empowered,” do any of those those?
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs] I mean, usually it’s when I’m feeling good about myself, and I want to share that I feel good about myself with other people.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know. And more of those- More of those pictures are- I hesitate to use the word “validation.” I guess that, strictly speaking, it is validation. It’s, “I think I look good, I took a good picture, don’t you think so too, everybody?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, there’s a reason that, like, you could just take that picture, feel good, and move on and not post it, but then you post it, so clearly there’s something that we’re getting out of that step.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right.
KYLE GETZ
But I would- I would imagine you doing it in a more healthy way than most. Like, you don’t depend on that valid- Like, you have healthy self-esteem that, like, you don’t need people to like it. Like, do you feel bad if like, only a few people like a picture?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God. [Mike laughs] I wish. Good for you.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I just don’t. Like- And there are people in my life, because of the fraternity, who are younger than you, and, like-
KYLE GETZ
That’s mean.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Don’t remind me people exist that are younger than me.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Who seem to genuinely experience horrible psychological effects to having things not be as successful as they need them to be when they post them online.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, like, I worry about them. Like, I worry about it. And- Anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who you’re talking about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well- [laughs] It’s okay, he doesn’t listen.
KYLE GETZ
So does he- Oh, okay, never mind. It looked at different groups. Again, this is the social identification, or, social identity, theory, so it talked about various groups. Women and LGBTQ people were more likely to report taking selfies to feel empowered. So I thought- Again, I don’t- I don’t usually feel empowered when I take a selfie, but I’m also not everyone. LGBTQ participants were also more likely to use activist and political events as selfie contexts-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-and to engage in online activism.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s for sure. I mean, we- midterm voting, we just saw a bunch of people, like, I saw someone put the “I Voted” sticker on their ass and take a picture that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent. Excellent!
KYLE GETZ
Like, you know, people definitely use the “I Voted” sticker and selfie as a way to promote voting, and I- I’m so jaded about- and I’m like, “You don’t actually care about voting, you just found a socially acceptable way to put out your selfie. I don’t think you actually-“ I think people are like, [in a mocking voice] “Oh, this is acceptable right now. Cool. Here’s my selfie.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. There’s probably some of both, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re probably people who’ve never voted in their life, but they know that this is the week for stickers on your ass. And-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Some dude I met, like, once, and am friends with on Facebook – you know, like five years ago or whatever – and I’m still friends with, he posts like a reading list, and every time he does like a shirtless selfie, because he knows that’s gonna get the engagement, and then he talks about like books or something nerdy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
And so, like, I think people do use- they know that- Especially hot people, you know, that this will help the- like, improve.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We- And this is something that we don’t- This is another part where, like, we don’t fit in with a lot of people. Like, a lot of people would be posting a ton of themselves, and that tends to get- Even our Instagram, if we post a picture of ourselves that gets far more likes than anything else, but we don’t- it’s just not our- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, because people are stupid. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah. Um, I just wanted to read this, the last thing that I will say about the study: quote, “the findings indicate that potentially marginalized groups can use selfies to say something about who they are and, in doing so, feel a sense of affirmation, connection, and empowerment. This goes against the perception that taking selfies is a frivolous, narcissistic practice with little meaning or value.” So there’s more- I just- Anytime I see a selfie, I just go right to “narcissistic”, and there’s clearly something to that, but there is more going on there that is not purely negative.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Part of that is, you know, a sense of belonging, a sense of empowerment. You know, I assume for gay people, like, back to that, that like, that’s- as gays do that, take selfies, then that’s the behavior, that’s the norm. You know. So, yeah, there’s more going on with selfies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, two people can do exactly the same thing, and- for very different, internal reasons, and they’re the only ones that know which is true, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or I can even do the same thing in two different- at two different times, and one time it’s healthy, and the other time it’s not, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, I fucking destroyed an entire pizza yesterday, [Kyle laughs] when I got home, and it was intentional, and I didn’t feel bad, and I was hungry and didn’t want to go anywhere. I have no food in the house because I was on vacation. Fast forward, like, six weeks from now, if I destroy an entire pizza I’ll feel awful about myself, and, like, you know, just go in a death spiral of guilt and shame about it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, consuming a pizza isn’t immediately indicative of what’s going on, internally.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Some selfies are, and maybe most selfies are, born out of this, like, narcissist thing, but…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, you are right that I don’t take enough selfies with pizzas.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, a lot of my life is spent with pizza, [Mike laughs] so I feel like I haven’t adequately demonstrated that online.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Share your love of your life with everyone.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Your dog, and pizza. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
My dog, and pizza; what more do you need in life? I fucking hate how the thing is when it’s someone’s birthday, when someone dies, like, you post a picture of you and the person. It’s like- It’s so- Like, you don’t need to post a picture of yourself when it’s someone else’s birthday. I think I did this, like, last year on your birthday, I just posted a picture of myself and wrote “Happy Birthday, Mike,” because I thought it was really funny. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I don’t know that anyone- Like, maybe people don’t know- I don’t think anyone else thought it was funny, but I did. [Mike laughs] It’s just like, what the fu- How- That seems so narcissistic to me, to be like, [doing a mocking voice] “Look at me, I’m with you,” and, you know. I dunno.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I see gays doing that all the time.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m with you. Yeah, that makes sense.
KYLE GETZ
We also need it for our apps, we need updated pictures for the app, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s do that.
KYLE GETZ
Do what?
MIKE JOHNSON
Take updated pictures for apps.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I owe everybody an app makeover episode! It’s on the list, everybody! We’re gonna make it happen.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I’m- There are some interesting things that we have to talk about for your app makeover episode that-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
It’s on the list.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna play a game.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I stole this idea.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Totally stole this idea from Chris Haigy from the We Read Movies podcast.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, hey Chris.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a slightly different variation on it, but it’s a “Wait, Is That For Real?!” is what we’re gonna play.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m going to read you six selfie deaths, and you’re going to tell me which five of them are real and which one of them I made up.
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] Should- I have- I have information about selfie deaths.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, do you wanna do that first?
KYLE GETZ
No, no, no, I’ll do that after.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you sure?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Uh, and then, I do have stuff on how to take a selfie, and maybe we’ll save that for Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ooo, yeah. I need help, girl.
KYLE GETZ
I- Me too! [Mike laughs] Um, Chris Haigy, speaking of selfies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…That was the end of my thought.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
He just takes a bunch of ‘em.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, why not?
KYLE GETZ
I- I mean, you know, it works for him.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
One of the six of these is fake, I made it up.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
The others are real.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then maybe we can talk about, like, the shit people do, like, to get a good selfie.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Yeah, eugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Number one, a Polish couple fell to their death off a cliff in Portugal after crossing a safety barrier to take a selfie with their children. Their two children, who were present at the scene, survived-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my-
MIKE JOHNSON
-and watched their parents die. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You can’t- You’re gonna have to laugh like 80% less during this segment, Mike. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Holy shit. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Number two, two young men died in the Ural Mountains. They pulled a pin from a live hand grenade and took a selfie with it. The phone with the picture is- [laughing] is the only evidence of their deaths that survived.
KYLE GETZ
Mike, why are you laughing so much?!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
You can’t- [chuckles] I guess ‘cause it’s horrifying, or- I’m trying to give you credit here. That’s- Okay. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Number three, a 21-year-old man from Yogyakarta fell into the crater of the volcano Mount Merapi while attempting to take a selfie, and died in the volcano.
KYLE GETZ
It was so hard for you not to laugh during that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Number four, a 63-year-old Bollywood celebrity died when an OR nurse attempted to take a selfie during an abdominal surgery [Kyle gasps] and dropped her phone into his body cavity, causing a severe bleed.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Number five, five intoxicated teenagers lied down in the middle of the road near an airport to take a selfie with a plane landing in the background. It was at night, and a truck driver did not see them and accidentally ran them over, killing two of them. [Kyle gasps] And number six, a Chinese businessman at a local wildlife park in the city of Rongcheng, Shandong province, was drowned by a walrus after taking several selfies and videos with the animal. A zookeeper was- also drowned in the same incident, after attempting to save the man.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus Christ. If only one of those is fake [Mike laughs] that means the other five are real, so like, that’s too many of those to be real.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I have two that I’m waffling between.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
One is, [quietly doing a voice] oh! I should take a selfie with waffles. Um, one is, I think you were just on an airplane a bunch, so flying around, so it’d make sense if your invented one was the airplane one, because that’d be connected to what you- The other one is, like, a Seinfeld episode. Like, they- Instead of a Junior Mint it’s a phone though, but like, that- That’s a- Oh, you don’t like Seinfeld, so you don’t watch that, [Mike laughs] so you didn’t- If you made it up you didn’t- You didn’t see Seinfeld to have based that off of. Okay, I’m gonna go the airplane one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. The fake one was the dropping the phone into the surgery one.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Ah, fuck! Man! [Mike laughs] That means the grenade one was real? That means the kids watched- I should have guessed that one, because I didn’t want that to be real. The kids watched their parents die?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Can you imagine? I can’t. Holy shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
That’s traumatic. That’s a trauma, baby.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have- I have round two. Are you ready for a round two?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God. Okay. [Mike chuckles] [sighs] Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, okay, of those first ones, uh-
KYLE GETZ
The grenade one?!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Don’t pull a- Even if you think it’s fake, don’t. Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, I- There were a whole bunch of them. I found a whole list – right? – and then I culled them down to the ones that I wanted to, like, include in here, and there were lots and lots and lots of them, of people who are obsessed with taking selfies with guns, who then, like, pull the wrong trigger and shoot themselves-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god.
MIKE JOHNSON
-taking a selfie. I mean, lots.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, anyway.
KYLE GETZ
I would imagine there’d be a lot of falling to your death ones too.
MIKE JOHNSON
And a lot of them are falls, yeah, yep, yeah. Okay… A walrus? Like, [Kyle laughs] who takes- Who tries to take selfie with a walrus?! Like-
KYLE GETZ
I mean, anyone would. That seems like good selfie material.
MIKE JOHNSON
They are terrifying!
KYLE GETZ
I- There are so many where, like, there’s an animal, and I’m like, I would not be- I even saw it- Like, I posted a video, like, there were squirrels right by me in the park recently, and I was like- I think I was nervous they were gonna bite me. I always think everything’s evil and is gonna bite me.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean-
KYLE GETZ
In a bad way.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay, round two. You ready?
KYLE GETZ
Okay, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Number one, in a remote area of Utah the desiccated skeleton of a 26-year-old hiker was found holding a cell phone. Data from the phone was retrieved, and showed the man taking several selfies with a rattlesnake, [Kyle gasps] including a final picture in which the snake bit him on the face. [chuckles] Number two, a 22-year-old student of Kherva[‘s] Ganpat University in Gujarat, India, climbed a glass dome on the third-floor terrace of a building to take a selfie. The fragile glass collapsed, [Kyle gasps] and she plunged 70 feet to the ground floor and was killed. Selfies were subsequently banned at the school.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, number three, police said Taraknath Makal was traveling by train with four friends, all aged between 25 and 30 years. When he reportedly leaned out of the door to take a selfie he lost his footing and fell off the train, so his friends jumped out to save them, but got ran down by another train coming from the opposite direction.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God. That’s my nightmare.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Number four, in Zagreb, Croatia a 14-year-old boy climbed onto the roof of a train cargo wagon where he wanted to take a selfie, he grabbed a wire and was electrocuted, and his body apparently burned like a torch. Firefighters were unable to take action until the trains power was turned off.
KYLE GETZ
Burned like- Oh, God, a 4-year-old. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, 14. 14.
KYLE GETZ
Number five, five passengers aboard a sightseeing helicopter with its doors off, drowned after a passenger tried to take a shoe selfie – which I had to look up, it’s when you take a- point and take a picture of your feet – tried to take a shoe selfie and fell out, and their safety tether got caught on the emergency fuel shutoff lever, killing the engine to the helicopter which then [laughs] fell into the river.
KYLE GETZ
Ugh, Mike, stop it.
MIKE JOHNSON
And number six, a boat overloaded with 20 people in a reservoir in Central Java capsized when the passengers all suddenly moved to one side of the boat for a selfie- for a group selfie. The boat was being driven by a 13-year-old. Nine of the passengers drowned, including two children.
KYLE GETZ
Hooo- Okay. I hate the one where the kid lit up like whatever you said, I don’t- I- But, God, that seems too cruel for you to make up. [Mike laughs] That seems mean. I’m gonna go the- You were just in India as well, and so there’s one in India, climbing on a building, I’m gonna say you saw that building or read about that building in India, and so that gave you the idea, so I’m gonna go the India one.
MIKE JOHNSON
There were two in India.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, the glass dome. Oh, what was-
MIKE JOHNSON
The glass dome one? Okay. Yeah, there’s the glass dome one, and then there’s the jump off the train to save your friend but get run over by a train going the other direction.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhh, well then it’s one of these two, because you’re asking for clarification. I’m gonna- Eh. Okay, I’m gonna switch it, I’m gonna pick the different- the other door. I’m gonna go train-jumping-off-of.
MIKE JOHNSON
The Monty Hall problem.
KYLE GETZ
The Monty Hall problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
Except, I am not Monty Hall. It was the rattlesnake one.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
The hiker that got bit in the face by a rattlesnake. That was based on one that actually happened, but it wasn’t a death, it was just an injury.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, the one that really sticks out to me out of all of these is the one of, like, “Okay everybody, get together for a selfie!” on a boat, and the fucking boat tips over because everybody runs- Like, people- You say “selfie,” “group selfie,” people don’t pay attention at all, they just fucking do it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, I just- I- That one is so visceral to me, I could see it happen. I have a fear of boats, and people, groups of people on boats, and groups of people on escalators. Get the fuck out of the way, there are people behind you!
KYLE GETZ
Ohh. The inability of some people to, like- You must continue forward!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes!
KYLE GETZ
Like, that is a requirement!
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t- Like, and places are designed real bad so that, especially, stupid people- and there’s a lot of fucking stupid people in the world – at airports, that I’ve spent a lot of time in – get to the top of an escalator and immediately stop and look around, like, [doing a dopy voice] “Where am I going?” You fuckers, move! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] The train one is the most- Like, that one- Like, the idea of something coming the other way and, like, hitting you, is like, eugh. I hate being in a car and being between the concrete barrier and a truck. Like, that is like terrifying to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm, mhm. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
You don’t like- Like, so cruises wouldn’t be up your alley?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s-
KYLE GETZ
Like, boats and people?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just- Yeahhh. I’ve gone on cruises before, and a cruise ship is less like a boat and more like, just like, land that’s not a- that’s away from the shore. [chuckles] You know, because they don’t move-
KYLE GETZ
It’s like land, but just, in the water.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. It is. Like, they’re just super stable, right? Like, they- They hardly move at all unless there’s like a storm or whatever. But, like, I mean like, a little boat.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Okay, okay. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Anyway, that’s- That’s, uh, wait- “Wait, Is That For Real?!” or whatever Chris Haigy calls it.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] Or whatever. Or whatever. Um, thanks. That’s horrifying. Well, I actually found there was a study that was, like, there is no data that has been collected on this, so they collected – they researched – as many as they could find from 2014 to mid-2016 to figure out how-
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
Since you actually looked at this, how many people do you think have died while attempting selfies during that time?
MIKE JOHNSON
400.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, 75, so, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. Great, I’m wrong.
KYLE GETZ
Um, 75. I was-
MIKE JOHNSON
Nice.
KYLE GETZ
I was wondering- I was wondering why- 75 people have died while attempting selfies, in 52 incidents worldwide, and I was like, “Wait, how is there less?” but that’s because, like, can you imagine one selfie killing multiple people? Eugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, or one selfie killing your spouse in front of your children, and you. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh. I mean, I thought about this- or- Like, when Pokémon Go happened and people are, like, not paying attention to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my God.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you’re right that there is something, like, you say “Selfie,” and people just kind of ignore everything around you to- The mean age of the victims was 23-
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
-.3, if that matters-
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
-and 82% were male.
MIKE JOHNSON
That surprises me.
KYLE GETZ
Right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Because you think of women being the ones that more likely than us – I mean, I think it’s, you know, straight dudes – like, more likely than straight dudes to be taking selfies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Me too!
KYLE GETZ
But more cautious, maybe?
MIKE JOHNSON
Dudes are real reckless, and dumb, and are more likely to take pictures with rattlesnakes and walruses.
KYLE GETZ
Or, walri? [Mike laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But yeah, I think of like, in a group of people on vacation together, the one that’s gonna be taking all of the pictures and documenting it is going to be the chicken or 20s, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Someone [chuckles] was taking tons of videos at the bachelorette party went to- Oh, I don’t know if- I doubt she- Um, and at one point, like, handed- like, wanted- she wanted to be in one, so she gave me her phone and then was, like, dancing around, and then I was like… I don’t want to- Like, I don’t do this for myself. I don’t want to video these- Like, at some point I just, like, put the phone down, because like, I don’t want to do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But, yeah. The most- India’s the most common country, followed by Russia and the US, which is interesting, because you mentioned two from India and we even talked about it. Um, most are falling from a height, drowning, and rail accidents, those are the top three.
MIKE JOHNSON
The hand grenade was, uh, Russia.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, interesting!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Anyway, go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
That one- [Mike laughs] That’s not- Well, I don’t know. What’s the selfie- I don’t know. Okay. They did not have enough data to compare selfies versus non-selfie photography. Like, some of these things are not this- Well, I think the act of the selfie, you’re like, you’re distracted, which is different than if you were like setting up a camera. That, I think you’re looking around a little bit more, and you don’t have something in your hand that you’re looking at the picture.
MIKE JOHNSON
And especially with dudes. And so maybe this is the thing that, like, “Here’s a picture of me I’m taking myself, doing something crazy, ridiculous, dangerous, over-the-top,” whatever, lends itself to, you know, issues.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Whereas, like, when you take a picture of something else, it’s usually not-
KYLE GETZ
Well, no no, you could, like, set up a camera to take a picture of yourself. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Well, I guess I don’t- We defined “selfie”, but I don’t know what they defined as non-selfie photography. I was thinking like, you set up a camera and then you all go step back. I guess that stuff doesn’t happen anymore now, because-
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just thinking about, like, out there taking pictures of lions and one eats you or something. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There was a guy that got trampled by elephants. He got- He got of the safari vehicle to go take a [laughs] selfie with an elephant, and fuckin’-
KYLE GETZ
You’re on a safari! Jesus- That’s like, we’re here specifically to see very dangerous animals! That seems like a- Um, one of the reactions to this has been their worldwide initiatives that, like, are creating no-selfie zones. And it said, “a multifactorial approach is required before it gets too late.” That’s ominous.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, it’s a little late, and people have already died from this, so I mean, we’ve missed it, but like, I don’t know what- if they think they’re going to be increasing or something. Anyway. Um, that’s- Wow. No selfie is more important than your life.
MIKE JOHNSON
True that. I mean, some people, I don’t know. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I wouldn’t mind if Elon Musk took a selfie that endangered his life, but, that’s different thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Another irrational fear, or, like, thing that I can’t help but react to, is people who are taking selfies, or just regular pictures, who are putting their phone in places where, like, if you drop it it is gone, or it’s gonna fuck up this machine that we’re all on together, or you’re gonna – you know – you’re gonna hit somebody with it at a- You know, “Drop a penny off the Empire State Building it’s gonna go through somebody’s skull,” which it won’t, because that’s a lie, but, anyway, MythBusters busted that one.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, people will put their fucking phones in the most like, weird, random, dangerous places. We were in Buenos Aires on Sunday. We toured an awesome graveyard, it was a cemetery that had, like, all of these above-ground crypts that were like family tombs, and some of them had windows, and some of those windows were broken, and one of the people that I was with kept putting his cellphone into the- And I was like, “Girl, if you drop that phone it’s with dead people now, forever.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] It’s with the fishes. I- Well also, if there’s broken glasses isn’t that like sticking your hand through- Was that dangerous in and of itself, putting your hand through that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. Yes. I hope you have tetanus shots!
KYLE GETZ
Eugh. Okay, and maybe- Maybe the purpose, if there- Why was this something that interested you enough to talk about? I was gonna- I was gonna come up with purpose for talking about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wh- The camera?
KYLE GETZ
No, no, no, selfie deaths.
MIKE JOHNSON
I dunno. Because-
KYLE GETZ
Because our podcast needs content?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well there’s that, Kyle. [Kyle laughs] We get together once a week, and we talk for a while, and then it goes out the door, and we need to say things.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] And we need to say things during that time period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There is something about my total lack of confidence in the human species, that I view them as hopelessly narcissistic, stupid, dangerous. I’m fascinated by it in the same reason that I’m fascinated by Darwin Awards, and, um, it lets me feel superior that I’m not the type of person that those sorts of things would ever happen to, and it sort of justifies my derision for those that would, and I’m not proud of any of that, but that’s definitely part of the equation here.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, like, also that people- This is really important to people, it’s important enough that people- people are risking themselves, and clearly to ill- adverse effects, but like, that’s how extreme people care about selfies and their online – more so, like, the bigger picture, like – more so their online image and what they’re putting out there, whether it’s presenting that “I am interesting, or cool, or in a cool place, or doing something wild,” like, this is very important to people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s important enough to some people, to take these kinds of risks, and that- I also don’t- I rarely take a selfie. Like, it is so rare that I will post them, and- take them, much less post them. I feel like that’s- I’m very different than most gay people, so this is not important to me, so it is interesting seeing how much people care about- I care about my, like, online presence. Like, I check stuff too much, I do other things that are like harmful, but, taking and posting selfies is not one of those things.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. [chuckles] So we’re gonna ask all of you to post your selfies. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Well here- Okay. Here’s what I think.
MIKE JOHNSON
“This thing is fucked up and stupid, and might kill you.” Let’s do it, everybody! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Let’s do it! Okay. Okay. One of the things that I- I think there are many of us, like me, although I think I’m not the only person that feels uncomfortable with- I mean, we know gay men have issues with their body. Like, I- That’s part of, like, my self-esteem and, like, body- Like, I don’t- Like, that’s the reason why. That’s mostly the reason why. And the idea of taking a bunch of pictures of myself and then looking through them is the worst. I would rather handle a live grenade.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Apparently you can do both at the same time. [Mike chuckles] Well, no you can’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
But, I think that I am not alone in that. I think we often see the jacked, gay, cis, white men that are posting pictures, and they get so many rewards for that. They’re- Like, if you have like 10-to-15-thousand Twitter followers I guarantee you it’s because you’re a gay guy that has posted shirtless selfies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There’s like- There’s like a number of people that you get to- like, you hit when you just do that one thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it’s frustrating, and I hate- This is part of, like, my being annoyed at selfies, is because of all these, like, “Oh, cool, you’re pretty. Good for you. I’m so happy you’re pretty,” like, that- I’m sure that’s wonderful for you. So, that- I want to encourage, no matter who you are, especially if you’re someone like me who doesn’t take selfies or avoids it, like, do that. Like, you’re allowed to do that as well, and you don’t have to look like that to still post yourself, and be okay with that, and be proud of yourself, and- So maybe- I think there is some value in encouraging people do it. Yeah. So- Okay. Post selfies, tag us, we will repost lots of selfies to celebrate the release of this episode, and then you and I are also gonna take a picture. On- Well, on Instagram or Twitter.
MIKE JOHNSON
But not Twitter, because it’s evil now. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Twitter’s like- This is another thing, if we go back to like, that- our conversation about, like, it’s hard to exist, just go through the world. Like, should I stop using Twitter? Like, I don’t- That’s been my personal main one that I use, and I’m like still there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Should we park gayishpodcast on Mastodon?
KYLE GETZ
I- I have not seen good things about Mastodon. I don’t know. I don’t know, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know either.
KYLE GETZ
Um, Instagram mainly, yeah. Uh, post a selfie, tag us we’ll repost it, and so you can at least get the validation from us that we care about you.
MIKE JOHNSON
So did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
Uhh, we did something.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We took- We took an hour and some change. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Did we talk enough about, like, gay culture and taking selfies? Is that- Like, was that part clear? And- I don’t know what else there is to talk about then, or us, or we.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t- I don’t- I don’t either.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Yeah, yeah. We did- We did a thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
We did it. Let’s-
KYLE GETZ
Um, let’s learn how to take selfies, because we both need help.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah, during the break for the Patreon segment we’re gonna learn how to take selfies.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Step one, take your shirt off! No- Okay. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Right, yeah. No step two, that’s the best selfie.
MIKE JOHNSON
So should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a breeaaak!
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We did good at taking selfies of ourselves, based on the tips we learned in the Patreon segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
I love that it got worse as we went along.
KYLE GETZ
Definitely. Well, the tip about turning your phone around, because it has a better camera, like, that seems like an expert-level move that we’re not to yet. I think handling basic smizing and head tilts are- I think that’s the phase we’re at.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Check it out for yourself by following us on Instagram. We’re not- Well, I guess- That is- That’s- Okay. Hi, everyone! Welcome back to our show!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
Wait! Just, call to action. Oh, I guess- We’re on social media. Uh, post your selfies to Instagram and Twitter, and – or, maybe just Instagram. Yeah, we’ll push that one, not pushing Twitter – @gayishpodcast, and we’re also on a bunch other places, like Discord, and Facebook Groups, and Spaces.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails. Text us your selfies.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s 585-5-GAYISH, that’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, if you don’t- If you’d prefer not to, or don’t have Instagram, you can text it to us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But we will, I don’t know, not- probably not post those. And our- I’m doing- I’m not- I’m not great.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re fine. You’re good.
KYLE GETZ
Gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
You skipped a week and you kind of forgot that we-
MIKE JOHNSON
I know, yeah. We got some stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, we have stuff? [gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Says, “Oh happiest of birthdays, and always remember that you are da bomb. From, Joe in Dallas.”
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Joe in Dallas! What’s in here? This is lube? Oh, no, It’s Da Bomb Beyond Insanity hot sauce.
KYLE GETZ
I was like, if that’s lube it’s bloody. [chuckles] ‘Cause- Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
And this is Ass Kickin’ Carolina Reaper salsa. It’s “Kick Ass Hot!” it says.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
And another box.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Another box?
MIKE JOHNSON
“We’re Not Really Strangers”?
KYLE GETZ
“We’re Not Really”- Oh! I think- Someone was like, “Can we send you a game?” and I was like, “Okay.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh!
KYLE GETZ
A sex party game!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, well, let’s not play that one.
KYLE GETZ
Why not? We’re a sex party podcast!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
We were nominated for a porn award, Mike. We’re a sex podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. And then-
KYLE GETZ
That only talks about sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then Boomer Banks, I heard him talking on another podcast and he was talking shit about Cybersocket. Because he was like-
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
He’s like, “Apparently I don’t do porn. They don’t know I exist.”
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhh. I thought you’re gonna say he was talking shit on us, and then I was gonna be excited that he knew who we are.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, no, no. No, no, no.
KYLE GETZ
No, he doesn’t? Aww.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, thanks, Joe in Dallas, and thanks, whoever you are that sent us this game. Probably the makers of the game.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll have to find- “We’re Not Really Strangers”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe we’ll do the quarterly Happy Hour.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’d be a fun- Like, have some question ideas.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe we’ll start with a single X though, because, like, you know, you don’t know how comfortable people are doing-
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Nope, Local Gay Bar Review! This will be a quick one, because- because it’ll be quick, but, uh, I went to JR’s Bar and Grill in Dallas, Texas, which we have talked about on the show before.
KYLE GETZ
Why?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, because that was the one where I got recognized.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, ooo, wow. Okay, oo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Be fancy.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, and I don’t remember if I could- I don’t remember what episode it was to go back to listen to it to know if I gave the whole thing, but it was still on my list, so I assume that means I just said I got recognized there and that I would review it later, and now I’m doing that later.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. Oh, sure. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I hung out-
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I like the mysterious notes you’ve left for yourself. I do the same thing, where I’m like, “This meant something at one point.”
MIKE JOHNSON
“Bird internet.” [both laugh] Okay. Uh, yeah. So it’s a sports bar, it has a lovely outdoor balcony upstairs that reminds me of Boise, the balcony at the bar there, um, when we went.
KYLE GETZ
But it’s a sports bar?
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh- Yeah. Yeah. Good cocktails. I tried- That’s when I had my first fuckleberry, [Kyle chuckles] which I do believe I talked about on the show last time, because- Also, hung out with Joe in Dallas and, um – DallasCzech from the discord server – and had a lovely old time. Uh, four dildos.
KYLE GETZ
Nice!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] Sports bar. Stupid. [both laugh] Uh, Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Now let’s do our Gayest & Straightest. I will go first, if you would like me to.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. So the straightest thing about me this week is: I bought Grindr stock.
KYLE GETZ
You did?
MIKE JOHNSON
I invested in Grindr, which-
KYLE GETZ
Did you buy it when it was at the bottom?
MIKE JOHNSON
No, I-
KYLE GETZ
And now you’re at the top?
MIKE JOHNSON
I was out of the country. Like- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, I did it… on principle. I only bought two shares, it’s like 40 bucks.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] That’s fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
I need to- I need to own that. On principle!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, you’re- You’re contributing. Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, and then the gayest thing about me this week was: going out in Buenos Aires this weekend and, because I don’t know how that country rolls – I do, but, I still worried about it – I had the Uber drop me off at the grocery store near the bar that I wanted to go to.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t type in a gay-ass into the Uber. I was just like… take me somewhere there- nearby there.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Doesn’t that sucked, that like- I was like, thinking about this. We have to look up countries and be like, “Am I gonna die there? Is it illegal for me to be”- like, that sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, absolutely. How about you, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is: I found myself, when I couldn’t sleep a couple nights ago, watching the 2012 Madonna halftime show from the Super Bowl.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
No idea how- You know, there’s just- I was like, watching the Shakira.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was your straightest?
KYLE GETZ
That was my gayest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, it was still football, so I think- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
There was- Well, yeah. But I watched no football and just Madonna.
MIKE JOHNSON
Got it.
KYLE GETZ
Um, the straightest: I don’t know why, but I’m watching the second season of the NXIVM documentary, and it just – I don’t know – it just feels like a straight thing. Just, the documentary, there’s nothing gay about it, there’s no- I don’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, that dude banged a loooot of those chicks.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep. Yep, yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I dunno. Um, we have a listener’s. This is from Donna Suggarz.
MIKE JOHNSON
Donna Suggarz, I heart you.
KYLE GETZ
I finally did not call you Donna Summers. Hi, Donna. Hope you’re doing well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, she just- She’s moved back to the East Coast. She bought a house.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You’re adulting.
DONNA SUGGARZ [voicemail]
Well hello, darlings. It’s Donna Suggarz. I was just calling with my Gayest & Straightest for the week. I just moved into my new home, and the straightest thing I did this week is: I replaced my own toilet! Oh, it was disgusting. Oh, God, [Mike laughs] the straightest thing I ever did, and I licked a vagina once! [Mike laughs] Uh, the gayest thing I did this week: [sighs] I wept openly because I was unpacking my records and my Bette Midler Divine Miss M album has a crack in it! Oh my God, that’s the one she did in the bathhouse with Barry Manilow as her pianist. I- I- I- I’m getting- I get emotional now just thinking about it. [Mike chuckles] So, um, I love you guys! Bye!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, Donna.
KYLE GETZ
Those are wonderful. [Mike laughs] Those are perfect gayest and straightests. Breaking your- and tearing up over your Bette Midler [laughs] album, that’s the one of the gayest things I’ve ever heard.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yesss.
KYLE GETZ
Is that it?
MIKE JOHNSON
I guess that’s it.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Send us your selfies, you fuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Why- Why do you feel hesitant? Do you have more to say, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Let it all out.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve just been gone.
KYLE GETZ
By that I mean poop.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve been- Oh, I’m pooping now. [Kyle laughs] I’ve just been gone for a while, so, it’s like, I forgot how to do this. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You’re allowed- [Mike laughs] You’re allowed to take one week off every, like, two, three years I think, roughly? [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep.
KYLE GETZ
Don’t do it again.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, thanks- Thanks for filling in! And thanks- Thanks to thanks to Miss Talk.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause she nasty. [both laughing]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Um, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, no “if you’re nasty”. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
“if you’re nasty”, yeah. Nah, she’s nasty, that’s fine.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m nasty, somebody’s nasty. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Someone is nasty, and we’re gonna get to the bottom. Umm, and make sure you listen to her new podcast, Humanists Star Trek-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s Humanist Trek. Um, also-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m gonna be on that bitch.
KYLE GETZ
You are?
MIKE JOHNSON
I hope so.
KYLE GETZ
You should. Um, also, thank you to the following Super Gap Bridgers: Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, [laughs] Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, DustySands, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you all for your support.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
And I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. Take a selfieee.
MIKE JOHNSON
Click.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
There’re some fun names that studies use, because of the word “selfie”, like them using that “Selfie-Help”, that was fun, “Selfie Indulgence”, “I Love My Selfie”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-uh.
KYLE GETZ
The one that took a real swing, “Selfie Harm”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-uh, uh-uh.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] That one I was like, “Oh, uhh. Ooo, uhh.”
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Capitalism, productivity, and self-worth. Sarah joins as a guest co-host to talk with Kyle about LGBTQ+ unemployment and our personal experiences being out of work.
In this episode: News- 5:29 || Main Topic (Unemployment)- 24:06 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:23:40
Find all about Sarah and the work she does at www.callmesarah.com. Also, take a listen to her podcasts, SarahTalk and Humanist Trek.
On the bonus segment, Sarah and Kyle commiserate on the topic of “productivity guilt,” and Kyle helps Sarah get deep into some feels. Get bonus segments every Friday and loads more bonus content by joining at the $5+/mo here on Patreon.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish, the podcast that asks “Bro…” [chuckles] I’m Kyle Getz and I’m here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, as you’ve already seen, it is me here. Mike is off; his birthday was Monday earlier this week. His birthday’s November 14 if anyone wants to wish him a belated happy birthday. He is also in a different country for work, so all of these things add together to be that Mike is not here. But, that doesn’t mean I’m alone. That means we have a super special guest co-host today, and that is Sarah Ray. Hi, Sarah.
SARAH RAY
Hey, how’s it going?
KYLE GETZ
Great! I’m so excited you’re here.
SARAH RAY
I’m so excited to be playing the role of Mike Johnson today.
KYLE GETZ
I’m excited to see how much you are like him, [Sarah laughs] how different you are from him, and if you have an entire segment on history that will last 20 minutes.
SARAH RAY
So, Star Trek.
KYLE GETZ
[laughing] Star Tre- Okay, yep, that worked, now we’re back. Sarah is the host of the SarahTalk Podcast and the new Humanist Trek podcast. She is also the VP of The Humanist Society. She is a humanist celebrant. She is an atheist. She’s a- uh, I guess not-so-recent-anymore Coloradan, and friend of the show, more so than maybe anyone that we’ve had on as a guest before. [chuckles]
SARAH RAY
[chuckles] We go way back.
KYLE GETZ
We go way back!
SARAH RAY
We do, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! So, we’re gonna do all the normal things, except I have to pretend that I care about the news [Sarah laughs] is basically the biggest difference. Okay, today we’re talking about unemployment specifically. Sarah, we are both [sighs] kind of in a similar spot in life right now.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But we’ll come back to that. We have a couple things to do first. So- But first, but first, [Sarah chuckles] we do have 100 words. In honor of Mike I am going to read the email leading up to the 100 words, even though that’s the dumbest structure [Sarah laughs] for what we set up. And, also, thank you to Tessa727 who sent this in, because we had been delaying a whole bunch on it. And finally, here it is. So, “Hello, Gayish team! Love the podcast. It’s one of my favorite podcasts out there for while I do my chores. I’m ADHD and autistic, so having you guys talking in my ears – be it silly or serious – really helps me get through what I need to do.” That’s very sweet, thank you. “So far, everyone who’s submitted 100 words had heartfelt and warming pieces. However, I’m in the mood for some harmless chaos. I would like to say I’m sorry, but I’m laughing too much even typing this to make that lie work. 100 words attached. If possible, can Mike first see it at time of recording? Read dramatically.” “From Tessa727.” I don’t know that we’ve gotten notes [both laugh] on how to read the 100 words in the past, but-
SARAH RAY
I can’t wait to see what chaos this is!
KYLE GETZ
-it’s- Okay. So- Because- Even though Mike is off, he’s still doing this dramatic reading, so I’m gonna go ahead and play that here.
[MIKE JOHNSON]
Read dramatically!
Lizard!
Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.
Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.
Lizard????
Lizard lizard!
Lizard, lizard lizard lizard, lizard – lizard lizard lizard.
Lizard. Lizard lizard lizard.
Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard! Lizard!
Lizard lizard lizard.
♫ Lizaaaaaarrrdddd. Lizard liiiiizzzaaaarrrddd. Lizard lizard -lizard lizard lizard -lizard liz -liz -lizard ♫
(halfway done!)
Lizard!
Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.
Lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard lizard.
LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD LIZARD!!!!!!!!
Lizard lizard lizard?
lizard lizard lizard.
Lizard – “Lizard! Lizard lizard lizard! Lizard?!?!?”
Lizard, lizard – “ Lizard lizard”
Lizard, liz lizard lizard.
Lizard.
(Fin)
KYLE GETZ
So, okay, thank you for that I think. I think thank you for those 100 words. Uhh- [chuckles] You know, we said you can use it for anything you want, and you- you did that. You successfully achieved that. Congrats. If you want to send us 100 words, and you have that level benefit at $15 and up on Patreon, I mean… test our- test our boundaries, baby. Okay, now on to the news… There’s a news theme song that plays here…
SARAH RAY
[whispered, faint] Shut your mouth hole… [Kyle laughs] time for your ear… news, news, news. [speaking normally] I’m gonna get the guitar.
KYLE GETZ
[hushed] Oh my god, the acoustic version!
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, so, news the first: – and I’m really excited you’re here for this Sarah – we just had in the US our midterm election.
SARAH RAY
We did.
KYLE GETZ
And, because we’re- We’re recording this at a time where at least we know that the Democrats are holding on to the Senate. So, before I get into anything more on my side, how are you feeling about the midterm elections and what happened?
SARAH RAY
I don’t feel like- I don’t feel like I paid as close attention to the election this year as maybe I had planned to or should. Like, we’ve got a lot of stuff going on, you know, in our lives. And kids are in school in a brand new school district, and like, there’s just a lot of things going on. But there were a few things that, like, really stuck out to me from this particular election. And the first of that is the youth vote.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
Like- So NPR noted that 27% of voters between 18 and 29 cast a ballot this year in the midterm, and that 2022 is the second highest voter turnout among young voters, uh, voters under 30, at least in the past three decades, and 2018 was highest.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
SARAH RAY
So like- It seems like, if I’m trying to find hope in this mess, it seems like we’re trending towards the youth being much more engaged in politics. And that’s a thing that, like- The youth of everything is a thing that we’re all trying to figure out, like if you run any kind of political thing, or a nonprofit or a community organization. Like, we all sit around in rooms and talk about “How do we get young people more involved in the X,” you know?
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, mhm, mhm.
SARAH RAY
Which is funny as a Gen Xer, you know, coming from the we did absolutely nothing with our- [both chuckle] with my youth. We listened to Green Day, and got high, and that’s- that was our involvement. [smacks lips] Ummm…
KYLE GETZ
I- But- Okay, I think if everyone just listened to Green Day and got high for a bit, like- You know?
SARAH RAY
Life would be- The world would be a better place.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely!
SARAH RAY
I agree.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think we- Like, we- I remember, I’m a millennial, I’m an elder millennial, which I recently learned was a thing. Because they were like, “Oh, thanks…” – you know – “…Gen Z and millennials under 30.” And I was like [gasp] I almost made the thanks, [Sarah scoffs] but then I didn’t. And I was like, “I should make the cut for the youth vote, I’m 36.” That’s fine, and I’ve accepted that I’m no longer the youth, and, you know, I’m over it, clearly.
SARAH RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
But, I think we had the big MTV campaigns of like, “Get out the vote-”
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-and like P Diddy did a PSA or something, of like- So, I think- I think we were trying to be what Gen Z is now. I think we were trying to get the push to participate in the way that Gen Z is. So.
SARAH RAY
And even with that though, still, it’s only 27%, right? Like, that’s still not a great number to be- We shouldn’t be proud of that. 27% is not enough.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s- It’s that, and the reason I believe behind it, or what – you know – Gen Z is talking a lot about, is this is the generation that had to go through active shooter drills, or had been in active shooter situations. Like, that being an instigator to go vote, it sucks that that would be one of the big catalysts for it. So there’s a lot of shitty things happening-
SARAH RAY
That’s true.
KYLE GETZ
-even though we’re trying to celebrate the Gen Z vote. Something else to celebrate is, there was not a red wave as expected.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I saw a bunch of people saying like, “We need to learn how to poll people that’s not calling them on the fucking phone.” [laughs]
SARAH RAY
[laughs] Right! Right. Because- First of all, I don’t have a home phone, right? So if you’re sourcing numbers that way, you’re gonna get the octogenarian audience [both chuckle] that you’re gonna get. And, uhm, if you call me on my cell phone, I’m not gonna answer it!
KYLE GETZ
No fucking way- Like, that, to me, I was like, “If you think that’s a youth thing, then you haven’t been paying attention for a very- It’s just now impacting your numbers enough that you’re rethinking it.” Like, I have not answered my phone for decades. [laughs]
SARAH RAY
I trust, like, YouGov polling. I don’t know if you’re familiar with YouGov.
KYLE GETZ
No.
SARAH RAY
You can download this app on your phone and participate in some of the polling that they do, and some of them are paid, and some of them aren’t. You know, you can make like five cents for filling out a survey or whatever. But when you look at those in the news articles, and look at the source for a lot of their data, YouGov comes up in a lot of that. So I feel like I’m- I’m getting my voice out a little bit, in some of that polling, when I use that app instead of like- There are some that have figured out “Here’s how we reach the people,” and it’s not calling them on the phone, it’s “Here’s an app you can sign up for.”
KYLE GETZ
It’s also interesting, that part of using your voice – we know that voting is not the only way nor should it be, but, it’s interesting – polls in prediction of how voting is going to happen, that’s a different way you can use your voice, is by voting on those things.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, that’s a weird- I didn’t even think about that as an option. Like, when people see, like, a crushing red wave is gonna hit us it kind of makes you feel defeated, and you might not vote because you think it’s just a done deal, and it clearly wasn’t.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. Right. And, [scoffs] like, just broadly, the midterms and the way they tend to go – Right? – usually the minority party cleans up in the midterms. They attack whatever the majority party president and Congress have been doing, and that usually swells them up, and we just- we didn’t have that this year. And I think there’s a lot of factors at play, but one of the big ones is, like, if you look at some of the candidates who didn’t do well, a lot of them were like election denier, Jan. 6 Trumpers.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
And they- A lot of them won, yes. Like, many did, but, it seemed like the Trump endorsement didn’t pay off positively in a lot of races like one might have expected.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. We are no longer- or- They are no longer fawning over him and “Everything he says is gospel, and we’ll do it no matter what or how crazy.”
SARAH RAY
Right. One of the most delicious losses for me though was that dickbag fuckface Dr. Oz.
KYLE GETZ
Yesss!
SARAH RAY
I am so glad he lost, but even then it was like a five point margin. Like- [nervously sighs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, it was way too close to, like, rest easy and be like, “Ooo, we’ve done it-”
SARAH RAY
Right?
KYLE GETZ
-but I was so glad about that one, absolutely. Another major takeaway that we are seeing from this midway is – The Victory Fund, which is a pack dedicated to getting openly LGBTQ officials elected in the US – they noted that at least 436 LGBTQ candidates won, which is 100 more than 2020.
SARAH RAY
That’s amazing. Amazing.
KYLE GETZ
So- That’s such a big number. Like, with all that’s going on- I mean, I even think of- I’ve been thinking about school boards recently, because of book bans and schools becoming a target for anti-LGBT-speech, people, hate. Um, but, getting people voted in across the country – LGBTQ people voted in across the country – is just such a huge way to make a change. There are so many firsts, that the one- I’ll just read a few. We had our first lesbian governor elected, which ended up being our two first lesbian governors elected because we ended up getting two at the same time. We have the first trans man elected to a state legislature. We had our first openly gay immigrant that was elected. So, among this big sea of LGBTQ people, also a lot of firsts are coming along with that. So that’s something else that we can – not necessarily rest easy, but – enjoy and appreciate that there was, what the Victory Fund called, a “Rainbow Wave.”
SARAH RAY
Absolutely. [huffs]
KYLE GETZ
Alright, new-
SARAH RAY
Let me finish on this thought, though.
KYLE GETZ
Please.
SARAH RAY
And that is: While we’re- I’m the pessimist of the group, [Kyle giggles] and while we’re celebrating our wins – Right? – like, slavery was on the ballot in five states and won in four, and the fifth one was kind of a sketchy reason why they kicked that down. So like, that’s another victory to talk about. There were a lot of great things, but at the end of it all I still kind of walked away going like, “It’s hard to find hope,” still, even with all of those wins. Like, there is no question we are a nation divided on many different lines, and like my mom always says, “It’ll probably get worse before it gets better.” So I think there’s a lot of, like, good positives to take away from the midterms, but also I don’t think that’s like the bell cry for “Great things are coming.” I think we still have to be cautious.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So moving on to news the second: I wanted to talk a little bit about the – fuck, I didn’t practice this name. [Sarah laughs] This is… well, you expect it now at this point, so, sorry everyone – the Mahsa Amini protests that are going on right now in Iran. This is something that I’ve just been personally paying close attention to, and because I’m running the news I get to fucking talk about it. It’s not inherently gay, but I think human rights, human liberation, women’s rights, all of that, ties very closely into LGBT rights, and if you don’t see the connection I would urge you to look more into the history of where our oppression comes from. So that’s the connection, but, the background is: back in September, 22-year-old Mahsa Amini was arrested for not following hijab laws. Police beat her, and, as everything – you know – is couching their bets, but I don’t have to because no one gives a fuck about this podcast [Sarah laughs] so I could just say- Basically, it is presumed- like, the police killed her, which they deny. That sparked the protests. Since then, women have been protesting the mandatory hijab laws, and of course it’s gotten bigger than that, protesting some of the – I forget what they’re called. Just, like, there are certain ways you’re supposed to act and behave. It’s basically the government is telling you exactly what you can- – um, morality laws that are there.
SARAH RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
So, it has become a big movement for women’s rights, and I just don’t- I feel like I have to seek out information on this rather than it always being front and center, especially now that it’s – you know – it’s been a couple of months and there’s fatigue there. Guess that’s part of the reason I wanted to bring it up.
SARAH RAY
Yeah, there is something to – I think, in the West – to really be paying attention to here, and that is, like, you know, one of the things that I’m always engaged in, something related to the separation of church and state. And like, these are great examples of “Here’s what happens when we let religion and government commingle: crazy shit like this.” Like, these ridiculous morality laws get put into place, and, you know, harm people; take people’s rights away. And there is a movement in our country to, you know, install Christian nationalism. And don’t be surprised if you start seeing some of that same kind of stuff happening, if we allow that to happen.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You- Before we started, you were talking about, [Kyle chuckles] if you look yourself up, one of the first things was [Sarah laughs] – what did you read?
SARAH RAY
Yeah. If you Google me, there’s- Most of what comes up is like atheist activism, right? And so, one of them was: I gave a- Uh, there was a City Commission in Florida that allowed Christian pastors to give a prayer before their meetings – Right? – to deliver an invocation. But like, 99 times out of 100, those invocations – or even 100, out of 100 – those invocations were a Christian preacher. And so I tested their policies on equality and signed up to give an invocation. And the – you know – the people in the office handling that request knew that they couldn’t deny this to me, that that would be very bad for them legally, so they had to let me do it. And then, as like I came and gave an invocation – and a secular invocation is very much like, “You were all elected to do this job for whatever special, you know, skills and knowledge that you have. Let’s come together, and put aside our differences, and get to doing the work of governing the people.” – right? That is basically a secular invocation.
KYLE GETZ
[sarcastically] So offens- That’s offensive! That’s mean and offensive, Sarah. [laughs]
SARAH RAY
Tsk. Was it- Two or three of them got up and walked out during my invocation. One of them left a bible on the dais, in protest. It was great! So that’s the kind of stuff you find when you start Googling me. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] And, I think one of the reasons to note that is: I think we can, with our xenophobic attitudes in the US, look at other countries and say, “Oh, that’s just that- Iran. That’s just them, that could never happen to us.” And it’s like, shit, like, that does happen, you know?
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I want to talk about how we are unfortunately connected and related in these struggles together. So, recent goings-on for these protests: the protests have continued; they have arrested 14,000 protesters so far; there have been hundreds of protesters killed by the authorities. Of course, they would give you different numbers, but, you know, international rights groups and watchdog groups have said that there are probably hundreds of- or, no, there are hundreds of people that have been killed. The fear is that, of those- with those 14,000 protesters, that they will be executed for violating some of these vague like, morality laws, or hijab laws, or what have you. Amnesty International put together a petition that is now closed but had a million signatures to call for an investigation into these. And, just one action item if you want to stay involved or learn more: I like the Instagram handle @middleeastmatters that has been covering this protest, and does also cover other things. Some of the other accounts that have been recommended are very graphic and violent. So, there are others that are useful, but that one: that’s a good kind of way to get in and at least start following this.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Last news story is actually an update- Oh fuck, “News the last.” I don’t know how much I want to be Mike. I’m trying to replicate his- [Sarah laughs] I’m stealing his new segment and trying to replicate it, but I- Okay. News the last: I’m Mike, this is all fun, I loooove talking about the news! Um, this is an update on Brittney Griner. So, we’ve given I think maybe a couple updates or so by now, but another major development, just quick update. She’s a WNBA player and an Olympic gold medalist who was, earlier this year, detained by- in Russians- uh, by Russian customs for cartridges with less than a gram of cannabis oil. That was apparently offensive enough that she was sentenced to nine years in prison. The update: she is being transferred to a prison camp, or, also known as a penal colony, which is what you might hear people refer to it in the news. At this point, I don’t know what- You know, it might actually- By the time this comes out we may know more, but, it is unknown where she’s going. People are not, like her family or lawyers, are not told until they arrive in the penal colony, and apparently penal colonies have pretty grim conditions. Um, I see you’re shaking your head Sarah. Have you- have you seen or read much about the situation?
SARAH RAY
I’ve read that- Yeah, I’ve read that a lot of them are like former gulags from Soviet era, and they’re like falling apart, and they crowd a bunch of people in there, and like it’s just- the conditions are just terrible.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, [sighs] yeah. So, before now, before this point, she’s been in a pretrial detention center in Moscow. So that’s why she – now that she’s been sentenced – is being moved. And, just earlier this month, one action item that I wanted to share, is that her wife Cherelle Griner encouraged people to write letters to her. I think, again, just like the Iranian protests, after a couple months of being in the news it kind of stops making front page news. So, the fear is that- I think she might have said that Brittney Griner thinks people have just kind of forgotten about her. You can actually write a letter and send to her, and you can go to “we are bg .org” – as in her initials, Brittney Griner – wearebg.org, and you can write a letter. And, given that was the call from her wife, from her own family, that this is something that would be useful, I think, remind- it sounds like such a little thing in the context of what’s going on, but, reminding her that “We haven’t forgotten about you, we’re thinking about you, we know this is still a fucked up situa-” Or- I don’t know. Say whatever you- [Sarah chuckles] I won’t tell you how to write your letter, you do that. God damn people, do your own- Um, so you can go there, find out how to write letter, and find out – you know – if there are any other actions you want to take.
SARAH RAY
It’s heartbreaking to think of being in that position. Just-
KYLE GETZ
This is something I think about, and I just- I could not- I just- I’d be like, “This one tiny thing I did has fucked me over in so many-“ It is a nothing charge. It means nothing. It was-
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. I can’t get over just that the- ugh. Like, this is scary. Like, it’s scary and horrible.
SARAH RAY
For sure.
KYLE GETZ
Well, that’s the news, [chuckles] Mike. Now I see why Mike tries to end on a happy one, because, I don’t know, we don’t have to be happy all the time. We can just be bleh. Um, people who are not bleh are the following Patreon members: Peter Altier… [TN: pronounced like “teardrop”] Peter Altier [TN: in a French way] I’m gonna guess?
SARAH RAY
Nailed it.
KYLE GETZ
Um. [chuckles] Nailed it. Uh, I’m gonna get this one: Matt. Appreciate you Matt.
SARAH RAY
Well done!
KYLE GETZ
Thank you. [laughs] Oh sorry, there are two Ts! Ma-t-t. Thank you Ma-t-t… Logan Cheshire, and TheOnlyShaun. That’s gotta- It’s not- Shaun, not Shawn. [TN: like the “wn” in “shown”] Shaun. Shawn.
SARAH RAY
What?
KYLE GETZ
Shaun.
SARAH RAY
What?
KYLE GETZ
S-H-A-U-N, that’s just Shaun still, right?
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We still do Shaun for that. TheOnlyShaun, all one word if that makes a difference to you. Uh, thank you so much to our Patreon members. If you want me to take a swing at your name, or make up a name that then I have to try for – that’s my version of the 100 words, is make me try to say your name – go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. Alright, do you, Sarah, want to talk about unemployment?
SARAH RAY
I do want to talk about unemployment. And since I’m playing the role of Mike today, I’d like to talk about the history of unemployment.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] If you do, I- you might be hosting this, because I might leave.
SARAH RAY
[laughs] Well, it turns out there’s not a lot of recorded history about unemployment as, like, a condition of being. So, what I started with was sort of-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, are you- Wait, you’re serious?! Are you really-
SARAH RAY
Yeah, of course I have a history of unemployment. [Kyle chuckles] So what I started with was the history of employment, and then I kind of extrapolated out from there, right? So-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god! [laughs] Sure. I- Wow. Okay, sure. Yeah.
SARAH RAY
I’m nailing this interview. Okay, so, this-
KYLE GETZ
I know, sorry! I need to get- [Sarah laughs] I need to like- I need to go along with you, and I’m happy to, I just- I didn’t- It’s just not- I didn’t expect this. Okay-
SARAH RAY
I love surprising you. There you go.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! Wow, it worked. I- Okay.
SARAH RAY
So-
KYLE GETZ
So.
SARAH RAY
So essentially, as, like, as a society grows, and starts to organize, then these systems of power grow from it: organized work being one of them, right? So think of like, small, collaborative, tribal sort of structure, right? Where the group is so small, everybody has a role to play, and they’re like basic things like gathering-hunting food, tending to children, creating shelter, like the necessities of life, right? But also – and I hope I’m not romanticizing this too much – individuals in those smaller groups also seem to be valued on more than just what they can produce.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
SARAH RAY
But-
KYLE GETZ
That seems like a key, that we need to hold on to that idea and see if and-
SARAH RAY
[talking over] IIIIII feel like we need to come back to that, how do we- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
So, when those societies start to grow, and get bigger, and spread out in territory, that’s when you really start to see like divisions: in age, and gender, and skill, and class. So as those systems scale up, workers become a commodity and are a market of their own, and then from like the basic life-sustaining work tasks like finding food and creating shelter, through the Industrial Revolution, through into the information age, work continues to get more and more specialized, and simply not everyone is going to fit into one of those specialized things.
KYLE GETZ
There’s part of what you’re describing that seems valuable, of us understanding we each have different skills that we divide up, and start – you know – specializing in our things.
SARAH RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
But also, the way you’re describing it, it seems like it also goes hand in hand with – then you mentioned – the commodification of workers. Like-
SARAH RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Do those things just go hand in hand?
SARAH RAY
And what do we do with the generalists, who don’t snap into the specialized jobs?
KYLE GETZ
Right. Right.
SARAH RAY
And I’m foreshadowing here, because this is- [Kyle chuckles] a lot of my story is wrapped into this, but- So then there’s a connected history of unemployment as like a kind of welfare benefit. So we know that those structures existed in ancient Egypt, and we have English laws going back to the 1500s creating public works programs, and punishments for the willfully unemployed. Pause there, because we want to draw the attention to, like, at least they had a little bit of compassion to exclude people who couldn’t work for whatever reason – right? – and targeted those who were, quote unquote, “Able bodied and able to work,” but for some reason were not working. In the US we probably think of things like World War I, the Great Depression, and the New Deal: Job-creating programs from the New Deal. When we think about labor, and shortages, and unemployment levels, I think America kind of goes- That’s where we think of. And I think it’s interesting to look at that approach, because like, while in arguably it did a lot of good, it further entrenched our belief that welfare – and by that I mean, like, the wellbeing of citizens – has to be tied into what they can produce. Ah, capitalism.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
SARAH RAY
And so, that’s why I like ideas like universal basic income so much, because it separates away the… “How many widgets can you make” from your value and it values us all as people, that we’re- we’re all humans, and we all exist in this space and time, and for that we should have value for each other, regardless of how many widgets you can make.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I’m blown away that- you mentioned even back to the 1500s, that there was some kind of, you know, collective “We need to support people who don’t have jobs,” and that sounds like a nice way of framing, like- but it’s based on productivity. We all need to get together to like, make sure those people aren’t punished for it, or are able to at least survive for a little bit.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s why- I didn’t- I didn’t expect this concept to have been around for so long.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. Well, and then here in the States – right? – we have this [huffs] deep-rooted negative view of the unemployed, right?
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
SARAH RAY
Like, we just idolize hard work so much as an ideal to strive for. And it’s just- It’s horseshit, as far as I’m concerned. Like, it’s just stupid. But, so anyway, I think what I would take from that is: you know, as we talk about unemployment, it’s easy to talk about it like a monolith, but we want to think about how people who are unemployed further breaks down into things like people who want to work but can’t for whatever reason, and people who want to work but they can’t find a job in their field, or people who want to create and give to society in a way that’s different from the capitalist job machine.
KYLE GETZ
Wow! I’m, like- I’m blown away by both the content and that you did this at all, so-
SARAH RAY
[laughs] It’s one thing I prepared for today, so, enjoy.
KYLE GETZ
I- I’m- [laughs] Okay, okay. We’re going downhill- Well, then I have to do my segment, so we’re going downhill. This is like Julia Louis Dreyfus in Veep, where I’m like “Oh, my VP pick was so good. I did this! I- Everything you say, I did it, because I picked!” [Sarah laughs] No, um- I- The last part, where you mentioned people that create things or work in a way that is not valued within this society: I think back to, in the past, artists. A lot of the famous artists that we have, and put their put their work on literal pedestals, are people who were supported by patrons that- Like, an entire family would be like, “We have so much fucking money, we’re gonna give to artists because- so that they can create.”
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I don’t know if I’m just romanticizing that concept that they did, and maybe it’s harder than I imagined, but I just thought that – even, like, when you think about philosophers, that you look back – like, there’s no way that made fucking money in our sense of the- Like, do we have philosophers today? Like, you have to be an academic and figure out other ways to do things and contribute. And so, to me, I remember learning about all these types of – I even hate calling it a profession, but like – all these types of people that did this stuff that we look back and value and teach in history, but I don’t know that you can be just a philosopher today. Like…
SARAH RAY
Well think about raising kids, right? There’s a thing that should be a job that comes with an income. [Kyle chuckles] I mean, we’re talking about people who are literally raising, like, the next generation of people. And, what have we done? We have, over time, created a system where a single-income household isn’t going to cut it anymore, right? Both- Ostensibly, we’re talking there’s, you know, two parents, or two adults, or whatever, that have to go out to make an income. And we’re relying more on organized school and childcare systems than we are, like, the family structure. And like, lots of things have changed in a short amount of time with the way America and the workforce kind of work together, and not in the best of ways, I don’t think.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, and it’s interesting, because that also- Part of the root of that: there is value and progress in women’s movement, of “We deserve to work if we want, how we want.”
SARAY RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
And that’s hugely valuable, but also that has contributed to exactly what you’re describing. So it’s like, you can seek a thing that then has unintended repercussions. And I don’t know that we could have looked back and been like- You- What would you do, say “No, women, don’t fight for this right”? Like, you know, what else are you gonna do? Like-
SARAH RAY
[huffs] I think- I think the lesson to take from that is: when we are in those moments now, we should be looking back to that and going, “Okay, how are the oligarchs and the rich – you know, the oil barons – going to use this against us, in the way that they used women entering the workforce in a way that changed our economy that then required them to stay, and – quote – ‘both parents’ work in the workforce?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. I maybe should have started with some kind of, like- I think, based on just what I’ve seen, in both our conversations, your podcast, things you’ve posted on Facebook, I think we are in a similar place in terms of just either unemployment or beliefs.
SARAH RAY
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
And so, there are a lot of people out there who – especially because a lot of our audience is in the US – this is a good example of, like: you have deep seated beliefs that, even if you don’t agree with what you’re saying, just, I would encourage you to just be open to what of your beliefs are based on an inherent truth about life, and what is based on “This is what I was trained to do,” because I think we’re gonna have conversations that, for some people, they’re just going to be like, “Absolutely not, these are dumb idiots who are too liberal to know what’s actually happening.”
SARAH RAY
[laughs] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I don’t- I’m not- I don’t want- I’m not trying to say you have to believe all of this, I just want you to open up, and maybe at least reflect on it. I was a business major; I did that because I think I knew that that would help me make money. I graduated and then started working for [company name bleeped]- Ooh, I don’t know if I should bleep that out, [Sarah laughs] [chuckles] because that is important. I worked for a major tech company here in Seattle. My belief was that the invisible hand of the market should guide things that the market would regulate, – help regulate – that just- that just kind of trusting the market. Boy, I was- That was also when I was a Republican. So, I have- I am not coming to this saying that I have always believed these things. This is something that I have been on, probably, the side of someone that if I were listening to myself – you know – even 10 years ago, I would be like, “That’s a dumb, dumb idiot that doesn’t know anything about economics.” So-
SARAH RAY
I don’t know about you, but like, these- those ideas were things that I was raised with, right? I grew up hearing that kind of stuff, like “The free market will even itself out,” and, you know, “Everything’s just going to be hunky dory.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think- And- But, what I did at least learn in economics class that played a role in my deconstruction of that idea in the real world, is that the free market, when you learn that in an economics class, that is devoid of so many- that is, in a vacuum, the market will handle things. So you have to remember all the things that, like- that we cannot exist in that vacuum, and if you’re expecting that to work in the real world, in our world, in a world where we have so many other factors at play, like, that’s just not how it works. So-
SARAH RAY
Correct. Yeah, that’s the economic philosophy of it.
KYLE GETZ
Exactly.
SARAH RAY
That’s not the reality of it.
KYLE GETZ
Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I do want to talk a little bit about some gay-ta, [laughs] and part of this is what I want to talk about: LGBTQ people and employment, because there are a lot of challenges out there. I’m gonna talk about some of my personal challenges, some of my beliefs. I also want to acknowledge that, in talking about unemployment, I have a lot of privilege in the- in being unemployed, even. I have enough money to live, and I am still comfortable enough in my unemployment that- Not- So we’re talking about a very specific – at least for me – a very specific privileged place that that my unemployment is coming from, and that is not representative of everyone, especially LGBTQ people’s challenges with unemployment. So, I want to talk a little bit more about that piece.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So this is from Investopedia, an article [TN: titled “Despite progress, LGBTQ+ communities continue to face disparities”] by Daniel Thomas Mollenkamp, who pulled in- seemed to pull in several different studies and kind of assessing the current state of employment with LGBTQ people. There is an LGBTQ pay gap. That is not too surprising to me, but it did outline the “wage hierarchy” as they called it, which- in terms of like, who makes the most money. So it goes: heterosexual men receive the most pay…
SARAH RAY
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Hi. Surprise. Wow. [Sarah laughs] …Then gay men, then lesbian women…
SARAH RAY
Really?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, in what they described as the “lesbian wage premium.”
SARAH RAY
[chuckling] Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, we’ll come back to that. …Then heterosexual women, and then bisexuals. Bisexuals make less than gay or straight people.
SARAH RAY
[quietly] Wow.
KYLE GETZ
And that’s- We talked a little bit about that on the last episode about hairdressers, but that is a thing that I did not realize and understand: that bisexuals, just time and time again, have this unique challenge of discrimination, and this is one of these ways that I’m seeing it show up.
SARAH RAY
Yeah, it’s really weird, like, I would think of- in terms of like, the gender gap driving, you know, a lot of those differences. That’s something that we know very well. So it’s interesting to see how that breaks down with sexuality mixed in.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Why- You scoffed at the lesbian wage premium.
SARAH RAY
[laughing] I’ve just never heard that before. I think that’s a fantastic phrase.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] To me, it’s- Agreed. To me, I’m also like, that helps inform “Where’s this coming from?” And it’s coming from a place of “We-“ Boy, I don’t know. I’m bringing in the stereotypes of what it means to be a lesbian, but we- we reward anything that appears masculine. To me, that- Like, the patriarchy is really driving who makes the most money here.
SARAH RAY
Right. And how much of that is also affected by – you know – what jobs you’re allowed to have?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, the Williams Institute survey has said that 16% of LGBTQ-… No, sorry, not trans. Trans’s separate. …So LGBQ people have lost a job because of discrimination. So, discrimination plays a role in- Like, that study – or, a lot of studies – are trying to compare the wage gap. Studies are trying to say “Okay, given equal education, employment, industry, all this stuff, given everything else equal, what is the pay difference?” And that’s useful to know. It’s also useful to know: things aren’t actually equal, so let’s pretend we are in the real world that we exist in. What’s the inequality? So, it is important to know that one of the causes that builds on that then is 16% of people have lost their job because of discrimination. Trans people experienced lower employment, higher rates of harassment – oh, “high rates.” It didn’t even say “higher” rates, it just said “high,” so it’s like, comparison, sure “higher” rates, but “high” rates of harassment – high rates of unemployment. A couple different studies, the SF LGBT Center in San Francisco and the Williams Institute both found that around 50% of people said they were unfairly fired or denied employment for being trans. So we’re gonna come back and talk a little bit more about your personal experiences with interviewing and employment, but we’ll- I’ll put a butt plug in that real quick. [chuckles]
SARAH RAY
As a- I also feel like… I haven’t experienced a ton of harassment in the workplace or out of the workplace, and I don’t know if- how much of that is- And I lived in a really red rural area in Florida, and I expected it there, you know?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
So, like, I do recognize that – like you said in your unemployment – I have a lot of privilege in the workplace, in the experiences that I’ve had, at least. Even – and we’ll come back to this, but – even in interviewing, I feel like I hear so many stories from my trans friends about these terrible experiences that they have, and I don’t have them to near the degree that I hear a lot of people in the community having them. And, like, on one hand, I- There’s a guilt that comes with that. Like, on one hand, I’m like “Phew, thank God it wasn’t me,” like “I’m, I’m doing okay here,” but also there’s so much out there that shouldn’t be happening, and I don’t want it to be happening to my trans siblings either.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That’s interesting- Is there- Is that like a survivor’s guilt kind of thing?
SARAH RAY
Maybe, yeah. Maybe.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- It’s interesting, because that’s the thing about those statistics: like 50% have experienced discrimination. Well, that means 50% haven’t, and to set up people for expecting that kind of discrimination, there is still a burden that is being placed on you, that regardless of whether it actually happens, it’s like.. man, you know- this is a very real tangible chance. Surely that contributes to…? Well, I guess I’ll let you say. Like, that has to be a challenging situation to face, whether it comes to fruition or not.
SARAH RAY
For sure. And hearing about it so much in the community puts that in your brain too, right? Like, so anytime you go into one of these situations, despite the fact that I feel, and see, and acknowledge my own privilege and I haven’t had issues like this before, you still walk into every situation feeling like “Oh God, this is gonna go- this is gonna go sideways,” and “Am I ready for that?” And then- But I’m also- Again, I’m the perpetual negative Nancy. Like, I have all those fears in my mind everywhere I go, like I worry about stuff. The anxiety is just so high.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But- And I wonder how much of those go hand in hand, the anxiety that has been forced upon you.
SARAH RAY
For sure.
KYLE GETZ
Interviews in general, and just worried about how you will be treated – yeah – causes just generalized anxiety beyond that.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. I mean, I’ve been through, like, several different transitions [laughs cheekily] in like – you know – in the workplace. Like, I was at a company when I came out and said “Hey, I’m going to transition. Like, you guys need to figure out how to talk about this to the staff, because they’re gonna need to know.” And then I left that job, and we moved across the country, and I started a new job, and I was – you know – going through that whole experience of being in a new place, and meeting new people, and starting a new job, and that I eventually quit because it sucked, and that’s why I’m unemployed. [Kyle chuckles] But yeah, every step of the way there is that, like, “Oh, God, how are people going to react to just the simpleness of me being trans?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whew. Um, so data, more data. All of this will further be compounded, so things like pay gap or discrimination will be compounded by intersecting identities like race and ethnicity. COVID definitely made things worse, and particularly LGBTQ people of color and trans people, it was particularly challenging for those parts of our community. Unfortunately the government doesn’t have sexual orientation or gender identity measures when they do their reviews of COVID 19, or surveys, so we don’t know- We have to rely on outside surveys, or outside studies, or – you know – just individual people just expressing some of these things. So there is a general need just for our government to acknowledge and measure our experiences. The last thing I’ll mention – not necessarily data, but related to all this – is: I did not realize in 2020 there was a Supreme Court case, Bostock v. Clayton County, and that said that our Title VII nondiscrimination, which those laws protect things like sex/race discrimination, it said that the sex discrimination that is already included in Title VII does apply, does mean that we are protected based on sexual orientation and gender identity. So there was a Supreme Court case that said, “No, you are federally protected in employment.”
SARAH RAY
[huffs] I feel like there was a call to a previous case, a citation. There was a schoolteacher in Indiana that was ultimately fired, or chased out of her job, but it all started when, like, her wife dropped her off, or her girlfriend, or whoever, dropped her off and they kissed in the parking lot at the school, and – you know – everybody clutched their pearls and got their panties in a bunch, [Kyle chuckles] and so, well we just can’t have that. And so, like, job opportunities that should have probably come her way were denied to her, and she started being treated differently, and I wish I could remember that case because that was one of the holdings that came from that, was like: you would have- or, one of the arguments at least was that if my husband had dropped me off and kissed me goodbye, “Have a great day at work, honey,” you wouldn’t have a problem with it, but because of sex, because of the sex of the person, you have a problem with it. So it had nothing to do with- It did have to do with sexual orientation, but their argument was – because our civil rights laws don’t have sexual orientation and gender identity written into them at the national level – the argument was: “It’s discrimination based on sex, because this was a woman. If it- Had it been a man, it would have been fine.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And that’s- I thought, like, “Okay, we’ve been fighting for the Equality Act, maybe, like, got one-“ I mean, there’s plenty more in the Equality Act that would help ensure things like housing, or getting provided goods and services just in general. So there’s lots of that needs to happen regardless, but exactly- Like, the point they’re making is like, “Well, these days, we don’t know what kind of Supreme Court decisions get to be held up [chuckles] [Sarah huffs] and what doesn’t, so that’s not a guarantee.” But also, yeah, it is based on- It makes- The logic makes absolute sense to me, but it is not codified that sexual orientation or gender identity are like, written in there real clear, so…
SARAH RAY
Right. And if the argument is that, “Well, the framers didn’t write sexual orientation and gender identity, so it doesn’t count.” Cool story, bro, let’s go write it then.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
SARAH RAY
Like, and do you know what we need to in order to be able to do that? Lots more seats in Congress. So vote, dammit. Back to the beginning.
KYLE GETZ
Back to the beginning. God, what a good connection, I wish we stopped there. [Sarah laughs] No, I don’t wish we stopped there.
SARAH RAY
[laughing] I have so much more to talk about!
KYLE GETZ
We have so much more to talk about! Yeah, absolutely. I- I have gotten so annoyed at, like, whatever the fuckin’ [in a mocking, nerdy tone] “Framers of the Constitution,” or “The Founding Fathers,” like-
SARAH RAY
Oh, I don’t care.
KYLE GETZ
-I don’t- I don’t care! Well, okay. One, I don’t care. Two, if you’re someone who cares, I believe their intention was – it’s, like, every 18 years or something – their intention was that a government needs to refigure its shit out, like, very often.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, the- If you care about their intention, their intention was not this.
SARAH RAY
Right, for sure. But, then if you look at like, what are the processes to – you know – add an amendment, like, the number of states that have to come together and say yes, and that whole process wasn’t a very achievable, or, I don’t know what the word is, but it- they didn’t- the foresight that they had on a lot of things did not extend to that one particular thing, I don’t think. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, the barrier is so high, and the idea of everyone coming together behind these ideas is- [chuckles] Like, those two pieces, like, we are not in a place where that’s happening.
SARAH RAY
Oh, bless your hearts, you really thought this was gonna go well, huh?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah, yeah. Yep. The last data point that we will then move back over to talking more about, your experiences Sarah: uh, trans people. The day- I seem to find a consistently- In terms of unemployment, specifically, trans people tend to have three- two to three times the unemployment rates of non-LGBTQ people. So, I think gay people, it said – the numbers didn’t add up to me totally, so – it said that they were the double, around double the average. It looked to me more like one and a half times, and I don’t totally get it. So- But, things consistently reported LGBT- or, trans people having two to three times the unemployment.
SARAH RAY
So, I can see things like, [sighs] because being trans for a lot of us is not something that we can hide – right? – it’s not something that I can put on my straight hat and just don’t talk about my – you know – my relationships or whatever at work, and kind of, you know, go under the radar and not be out in that environment. I am who I am, and I walk in the door, and there is no one that goes, “Nope, that’s a cis person.” [Kyle chuckles] Like, everybody knows I’m a trans person walking in the door, and, like, on a lot of levels I’m okay with that, right? Again, like, trying to use the privilege that I do have to go into those spaces and be like “You’re going to reckon with us, and who we are, and if I’m the one that has to sit here and do it, cool.” Um, but also, yeah, sure, there are times that I would just like to- You know, it’s that passing privilege and all that bullshit of like… [sighs] I just want to exist in the world without having to be an activist for my thing. Like, I dunno, It’s tough.
KYLE GETZ
So much of people will call someone an activist, and it’s like, are they an activist? Are they working towards that? Are they being an activist? Or are they being themselves in public? [chuckles]
SARAH RAY
Right, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, they might not want to be an activist. They might not want to be the person trying to revolutionize this thing. Maybe they’re just trying to exist, and you think that their existence means they’re activists?
SARAH RAY
Yeah, yeah. So-
KYLE GETZ
Would you- I would consider you an activist, because of the work that you do to help, especially in the humanist/atheist communities.
SARAH RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Do you call yourself an activist, or would you?
SARAH RAY
Yeah. Yeah, I would. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay.
SARAH RAY
I mean, I’ve been on hold the last – you know – year and a half or two because of moving and whatnot, but, like, I’m excited to get into that again, because it is something that I’m passionate about. And that ties into my employment journey in a way that, like- So, my goal, if you were to, like, “Sarah, what position – you know – what would you want to be doing with your life?” I want to be engaged with a freethought humanist, atheist, whatever, church-state separation organization that’s working on those issues. I feel like where my bread and butter is- is like, on-the-ground community organizing, helping communities come together in local areas, and then all of the techie stuff that I do, right? Like, there’s no reason why American Atheists or the American Humanist Association shouldn’t have their own media – you know – conglomeration podcasts, and YouTube shows, and all of that stuff. And that’s a-
KYLE GETZ
Is that something they’re behind on? Like, do they not have…?
SARAH RAY
American Atheists used to have a YouTube show, like back when YouTube was new, and, uh, [chuckles] and it fizzled out for whatever reason. But yeah, there’s a lot of new media that- There are a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows and such in the movement, in the community, but the national organizations don’t seem to all be a part of that. And so that’s something I would like to – you know – get my hands into and get involved with too. Here’s the thing: these organizations run on like 13 employees, right? Like, it’s not- When you think “Ooo, American Atheists, aah, American Humanist Association,” nah man, it’s a nonprofit, like, they don’t have a huge staff. And so, like, I’m trying to get myself into the door to these organizations, in a way that I can continue doing the activist work that I enjoy and love and feel like I’m making a difference in the world, but also be able to pay the bills and eat food, which is kind of an important thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
And so, it’s- what I found was – you know – when last we spoke, I think I was working third shift at Disney’s government: the Reedy Creek Improvement District. And trying to be like a day person while you’re working overnights, and trying to- even just trying to do the things while you’re holding down a full time job, it really does not leave you the amount of time that I think many of us want to do the things we care about, right? We’re working because we have to, we’re working because that’s what pays the bills. But then there are these other things that are our passion projects or things that we’re interested in, that we don’t get to put our whole selves into because of the time commitment, or the lack of resources, or whatever it is. So I’m just trying to find a way to- You know, they tell you “Do the thing you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life.” Trying to do that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, till- But till you get to that point- Like, you do have to work otherwise to get to that. Like, yeah.
SARAH RAY
Right. So there’s a lot of- there’s a lot of components in my personal, like, being unemployed journey. So, when we first moved, we moved from Florida to Colorado like a year and a half ago.
KYLE GETZ
That- Okay, I know this is not what this is about, but can we take a brief sidestep to-
SARAH RAY
Of course.
KYLE GETZ
To- You left Florida- Well, I mean, if people don’t know: you were in Florida.
SARAH RAY
Have you seen Florida?
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah. Did you leave because of the political and shittiness, or was that just a good benefit that you got to leave there? [laughs]
SARAH RAY
It was part of it.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
SARAH RAY
So, when I was a kid, my parents brought me out to Colorado, and we did all the touristy things, and I, just- I fell in love. And then, when our kids got to be a little older – this was like 2017, I think? – then I brought my wife and kids out here and we did, like, recreated my childhood vacation for them, and they all fell in love. And so, we all have this kind of like, “Well, one of these days, we’ll – you know – we’ll move west,” and – you know – Washington, Oregon, Colorado, were kind of the top three we were on the- looking at. And then – this was, like, you know, mid-COVID – Governor DeSantis decided that schools could not require kids to wear masks. However, it’s time to send your kids back to school now. And so, we- This was the thing that was holding us to Florida: we loved to the school that our kids were in, it was like an arts magnet choice school, you had to go into a lottery to – you know – get your kid into. Really great school, really great teachers. And we- we didn’t want to lose that. And also, like, I didn’t want my kids to have to go through that move across the country, or the new kid. Kids are dicks; they bully each other. Like, I didn’t want them to have to go through that, because they had good friends back in Florida. We didn’t want to lose all that. But when the governor was like “Yeah, so um, no mask- you can’t force kids to wear masks,” we were like “Cool. You know it’s still spiking, right? The pandemic isn’t over,” you know?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah. Yeah, you’re bringing me back to, like- Oh my God. The idea of “You can’t force them”-
SARAH RAY
Yeah
KYLE GETZ
-I don’t know. Just this revolt against the best thing to do for your health is- it was gross. I mean, it still is, it’s disgusting.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. So our solution was, “Well I guess I’m not sending my kids back to that school then.” So we unenrolled them, and put them in Florida Virtual, and did that for a little while, and then – you know – we got to the point where like, “Why are we still here?” Like, why- We- There was really nothing holding us down, like, “We miss our friends,” “Kids miss their friends,” like- but at the end of the day there was- it wasn’t like- my dream job wasn’t there, it was just time to go. And the benefit of that is: holy cow, have you seen Florida? [Kyle chuckles] And I don’t miss it, at all.
KYLE GETZ
At what point was the Don’t Say Gay bill?
SARAH RAY
Yeah, I think that was after we left, maybe, or, while we were in- Like, we had made the decision, and, you know, started working towards that. In fact, that’s the first milestone on the unemployment story. So, when I was working in Florida, I tried to do the right thing. Don’t ever do that. Uh- [Kyle laughs] [chuckles] Here’s some practical advice from Sarah: never trust HR. HR’s business is to protect the company. You need a union, not HR. Okay. So, I- The boss that I was working with, I had worked with at Disney many years prior. So we knew each other, like, we were friendly, and I wouldn’t say we were friends. We weren’t like “hanging outside of work” people. And so, I did – you know – an honorable and noble thing, and I said “Hey, I just want to give you a heads up; I don’t have any timeline, there are no dates, but we’re going to be moving to Colorado at some point. I’m looking for a job, we don’t have a place to live, but it’s going to be coming. Just wanted to give you that heads up.” Don’t do that. That was the first mistake. So this guy goes to HR and says, “Hey, so, Sarah said she’s probably going to be leaving soon. Can we go ahead and just open up the posting for that position, so that we can get a pool of candidates, so that when she does leave we have our candidates in hand and we can just- it won’t take so long to go through the process,” right? I understand where he was coming from, in his role, was “HR takes a month and a half to get someone hired, I wanted- I want to do this quicker.” So HR heard “Sarah’s leaving,” and said, “You need to go back to Sarah and get that in writing, with an end date.” And I said “I can’t do that, I don’t have a job, I don’t have a place to live, there’s no timeline,” right? I was just trying to be nice. And- So, the end of that story is that HR came back and said that based on the conversations that I had had with my boss and his boss, they were taking that to be my verbal resignation, and that my last day would be on the 15th.
KYLE GETZ
What?! What? How did- I mean-
SARAH RAY
That was it, and that- There was no arguing to them. Like, they had lawyers involved. There was no- So it was like, “Oh shit, we gotta find a job and a place to live, quick,” because, at the time, I was the only one making any income, right? Becca was taking care of the kids, and the house, and dealing with all of that. The kids being at home, homeschooling, was just- you know, she had to be a teacher too. So that was our only income, and it wouldn’t be long before, like, any savings that we’d had built up was going to be gone paying off the mortgage in – you know – months. We don’t have a savings, we have kids. [Kyle laughs] So, we scurried out quickly out of the state of Florida, and I took a job. [huffs] Let me stop here to say, like, I interviewed for a lot of jobs, right? So when I talked earlier about the generalists and the specialists… I tried three times to go to college; failed at all three. We had three very – you know – love-hate relationships. I went for a music education. I went for broadcasting because I was working in radio at the time, and when I left that I opened my own business doing computer repair, and website design, and all of that stuff. And so I thought “I’ll go back to school for that,” and college and I just didn’t get along, for a lot of reasons, and, like, one of the biggest ones is – you know – I knew what I wanted. And that didn’t involve years of math, right? [Kyle chuckles] If I’m gonna take computers apart, and put them back together again, and make them work, I really don’t need, like, algebra, and physics, and shit, for that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
Like- So there’s a- I don’t feel like our education system has gotten its head around to this generalist versus specialist thing either.
KYLE GETZ
Aren’t there like, programs that you could go to that would just focus on that aspect?
SARAH RAY
Yeah, I’m trying to think of what that’s called now. It was, um, like a trade school. Yeah, that’s what it is.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
Yeah yeah. So, those really weren’t options when I was going through it though, because I’m so old, you know, so. [Kyle laughs] It was- Then it was, you go to a four year school and you get your degree, or if you’re maybe lower income you go to a two year school first – a community college – and then jump over. But we were taught, growing up, you will be a failure in life if you don’t have a college education.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, absolutely.
SARAH RAY
Preached to us.
KYLE GETZ
And college was seen as the golden ticket that once you do that, you will be given everything.
SARAH RAY
Set for life, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
And that turned out not to be the case. Like, think of all of the people you know who have degrees, who are not working in their field of study.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
You want to have a medical degree to do medical things? Absolutely. You need a law degree to practice law? Sure. Like, there are some really good specialist things that require a degree, but I worked at Disney for [huffs] – I don’t even remember how long it was now – a decade, and there were these kids that would come through on the college program, you know, doing their hospitality degrees, and I’m like, “Sweetheart, come work here for six months, you don’t need that degree. You’ll learn it here in the fire, like, within a few months”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I remember- So when I graduated, I went to work in paid digital marketing, which, I majored in marketing, so that was close enough. But then I went through an entire month and a half of learning- We didn’t learn about digital marketing, much less like the paid aspect of that, like, I remember being in one of my marketing classes, and one of the students raised his hand and talked about what Google AdWords was, because the teacher didn’t know, and that was the closest I got to a conversation that related to my specialty.
SARAH RAY
Wow. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There was one time during the training, there’s one time where I was like: “The four Ps,” and I knew that and was like, “Cool.” Like, that- Okay, that played- During my training I got to like brag that I knew one acronym from marketing, but you didn’t need to know- you didn’t need a marketing degree, you could be a human that kind of thinks through things and knows how to get tasks done, and can sit in a training. Like, that- My job does not require a four-year college degree, and so many times it is- Okay, wait. Now I’m realizing, like, we’re on the, like, we’re talking about employment, and we’re talking about college, but those things are, to me, like very clearly connected, but help break down, like- Why is that so connected to a discussion about employment, or the- or unemployment?
SARAH RAY
Unemployment, right. So, as an unemployed person, there are two forks to this, I guess, and one of them is, like, there’s a part of me that, I don’t want to work. [Kyle chuckles] And people are gonna feel some type of way about that, and that’s fine. But, like, I want to create meaning in the world, right? I want to do things that are helpful to society in a way, but that doesn’t necessarily mean work as we sort of traditionally understand it. In the meantime, the mortgage is due. I need to work.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
So, I’m like, out, you know, trying to become gainfully employed again. And, the most recent, and the one that I would- It’s kind of hanging out there in the air, that I would really like, and this is the most – I don’t know – unusual job hiring experience I may have ever had: It’s for a job that I am, like, if I were in their position, I would go “Sarah, you’re not highly qualified for this position, we can find someone who comes in the door with this knowledge.” Uhhh, Yeah. So I’m up in my head about that kind of stuff. And it is a lot of, kind of what you were just saying about, like, if you’re familiar with digital organizer as a function of like the nonprofit world. So when you get those emails that say, “There’s some issue happening in your state, click here to tell your lawmaker how they should…” – you know – “…how you think, as a secular constituent, you should vote for this or that,” they’re the ones that really kind of put together those campaigns, and manage the digital assets and all of that stuff. And while I probably have the individual skill set to do each of those things, when I received the skills test for this position, I was like, shut-me-down-for-48-hours overwhelmed by it, because it used all of this jargon and industry buzzword stuff that I wasn’t trained into. So I’m like, God, I don’t know if this is for me. Like, can I do this? And I feel a lot of that comes from not being formally educated in a thing. I feel like I missed that because I didn’t go through the – you know – the system and jump through the hoops. So, it makes finding work hard when you’re unemployed, and, you know, could I go get a job at, you know, Target shocking- stocking shelves or whatever? Yes, I could; probably not for the pay that I need, and that I- You know, Disney trained me as a people leader, so when I think of, like, what my bread and butter is, where my training lies, is being a people leader. And that translates to all different kinds of work environments, but you have the Disney mindset of like: you can take a good leader, and teach them how to do the janitorial stuff, but you can’t necessarily take a good janitor, and make them into a good custodial leader, right?
KYLE GETZ
You reminded me of like my journey. You mentioned, like, you can- a lot of unemployed people could take jobs in, you know, generally in the service field that are unrelated to their specialty, or what have you. My- I’ve been unemployed a couple times in my life, sometimes because I was laid off, sometimes because I quit. I quit basically due to having really bad mental health. I ended up quitting my job in December 2019, and I thought I was going to take a couple months off, and then right around March 2020, pandemic; no way I’m gonna find a job now. So that was, like, I- I mean, I know this pandemic was a surprise to anyone, but my- I did- I- There’s- I thought- I work in Seattle, in, like, in tech.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, there’s going to be tech jobs, there’s always gonna be tech jobs. Whether it’s the level I want, or the pay I want, whatever, there’s always going to be jobs. So that was a huge surprise, so I did not work during the pandemic, and then finally when I did get a job it was vaguely related to my field, but literally less than half the pay that I was used to, and, you know, we always say “Oh, you can always do that,” like, one of the downsides is, like, when I go to a job, when I’m applying to a job, and “What salary are you expecting?” so much of it is based on what was your previous experience?
SARAH RAY
Right
KYLE GETZ
Like, am I limiting my future earnings by taking a lower paying job? And so much of this is like, I think people have such a narrow scope of- Like, you’re describing what are the skills you need? Or, how do we base your compensation? Or like, so much of it is based on these rules that we have. If you look back in the last year of my life and say “What have you earned?” or, “Your last job, what have you earned? So, that’s your expectation,” It’d be like, no, like, let’s look back two years. Like, the job I got during the pandemic was just, I needed something, so let’s look back two years and realize that I actually do have far more of the skills than you realize. And we just have a lot of really specific, calculated rules in corporate America that doesn’t always make sense.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. Well, when we moved out here to Colorado I took a job that was in my wheelhouse, but it was a step down and a pay cut, and I knew that going in, but we were moving across the country and these assholes fired me; basically, essentially, pushed me out. [Kyle huffs] These assholes pushed me out – right? – so I had to have something to get us out here, and that was our “something to get us out here” job. And then, thankfully, you know, Becca got a job with the American Humanist Association, which is great and she’s doing a phenomenal job with that, and so, we were okay with that pay cut. And then, I think I thought things were going to work out a whole lot better than they ended up working out, right? I thought “Oh, it’s a step down and a pay cut, but I can handle that.” And as it turns out, like, the person that they hired to oversee me had a lot less experience, and looked at the management position as a dictatorial one, of “I’m the boss and I tell you what to do, and you go do it, and that’s how we do this.” And I come from Egalitarian Land, where like, it takes all of us to make this thing happen, and we all have different titles, and we make different money, but one of us is gone it doesn’t work. You know, we all have to- we’re all kind of valued, from a leadership perspective, together. And I lead the team below me that way, and then that created a lot of conflict between my boss and I, as we had very different leadership styles of the team below us, and the team liked mine better, [Kyle laughs] sooo… that caused a lot of conflict, and it just fizzled to a point where like my mental health was so bad I just didn’t want to go into this place again. I don’t want to get up and have to go in and deal with this drama, this nonsense, again. It could be a great place to work, it could have been, and probably still could be.
KYLE GETZ
Something that is jumping to mind, especially in this, is there are a lot of people that would say “A lot of us don’t want to go into work, that’s just what you have to deal with. A lot of people have to deal with drama at work, and that’s just we have to deal with. If you if you need money, you got to put up with that,” and as a-
SARAH RAY
What are you, my dad in 1954 or something? [Kyle laughs] Because that’s what that sounds like to me.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. I have a cigar, “Sarah!”- and a whiskey, somehow doing both. [doing a silly impression] “Sarah! Here’s what I think-“
SARAH RAY
You get a job at a factory- This is what my parents did; my dad got a job at a factory, and retired from that factory job many decades later.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, wow.
SARAH GETZ
It’s not like that anymore. And so, this, like, “suck it up” mentality… I’m sorry, I’m just not there for that.
KYLE GETZ
And, isn’t it- I mean, you talked about your mental health taking a hit, and, like, isn’t that so sad that we’re like- that that’s the expectation? Like, sacrifice your mental health?
SARAH RAY
We don’t care if you’re happy, you just have to be employed, and that’s what’s important.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And I was to the point, like, the- When I say I quit my job because of mental health, I could not get myself out of bed. This is not a general, “I don’t want to, but I kinda have to force myself because we all have to work to make money,” this is a, “I’m struggling to get up, I’m struggling to take a shower, I’m struggling to attend a meeting, because I am so nonfunctional,” and that then spiral- Like, and then- So I did poorly at my job, I quit. It was- It was… I don’t know, I was gonna say “better” for me to quit and not have the added burden of failing at a job, but then I continued this depression spiral that was really bad. And, it’s- I don’t know if it’s because of work, but that was- Work was a huge cause of that. I think we so easily dismiss mental health challenges as, “That’s just what happens when you work,” and that’s so gross. [chuckles]
SARAH RAY
Well, and even just to care about each other’s mental health, or our own mental health, is sadly such a new thing in like, the great timeline of the cosmos or whatever, right? Like, again, when I talk about my parents era, that’s just what it was: you get a job, you have to do it. Whether you like it or not, who gives a shit? You have to do it. I’d like to see us get to the point where, like, we care about each other’s happiness, too.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted- Speaking of your happiness at work, I want to hear a little bit more about – you did say you- like, you haven’t faced, kind of, the discrimination that you think other people have had, so tell me more – about what it is like to walk into an office or an interview being visibly trans.
SARAH RAY
[sighing] Yeah. I mean, you carry so much into that room with you, despite not having experienced it firsthand. I should say, I do. So, I have interviewed for a couple of things since I walked from that last job. One of them was a store manager position for a sporting goods store. And, again, despite having no skill- This is one of those examples of like, “Well, this might have worked out, except they weren’t going to pay me enough,” where I have no- “Hi, I’m Sarah. Sportsball!” [Kyle laughs] Like, what do I know about sporting goods, right? But you walk into a room of, you know, it’s a sporting goods store, am I gonna get – you know – the good ole boy guy that works the gun counter?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That’s what I had in my mind just now. [chuckles]
SARAH RAY
I don’t know. Like, holy shit, I don’t know how it’s gonna work!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
SARAH RAY
But also, I will say, that, like, Colorado seems to be a pretty progressive place, unless you go too far east and then, you know, you’re in the fields, but, the Denver area, even up in the mountains, very- you know, there’s a lot of progressive- When I worked for the Denver Zoo, on my first day, one of my staff members came in did orientation with me, together, and they are nonbinary and introduced themselves as such with they/them pronouns in the – you know – the “welcome to the zoo” class, or whatever they make you do. And then we were walking around the campus, and I saw all kinds of diversity, and I was just like, “Oh my God, these are my people!” [Kyle chuckles] and everything was great, with the exception of the management problems. But it seems like there are a lot more visibly open trans people here than I have experienced in a workplace before, and I think part of that is, like, because Disney has such strict rules on how you can look, I think that plays a big role into it. Like, all the colorful hair that I’ve got going on, you can’t have that at Disney. At the zoo is fine, right? So you can kind of spot your people a little easier too, because we’re, you know, [Kyle chuckles] we’re brightly colored. [Kyle laughs] One girl had a trans flag butterfly in her hair, and I was like “Oh my God, these are my people out here, this is great.” So, that gives you a little confidence walking into the next place going, you know, “Hey, I’m here to apply for a job.” And- But yeah, you just don’t know who you’re gonna bump into, and what kind of crap they’re bringing with them to the interview.
KYLE GETZ
I- I mean, I know you mentioned some of the feelings of guilt around not having some of these experiences, or- It’s interesting, with- I think having a positive experience like the one you just described, where you can walk into a room and there can be lots of other trans or nonbinary people around, progressive people, people that will openly accept you, like, we- we also don’t want to walk around, say, “Life is all bad for trans people, sorry,” and then leave. Like, there are great experiences and good moments that I think are important to showcase, so I appreciate hearing some of the positive things as well. I think there’s value in that.
SARAH RAY
No, there’s definitely value in that. Like I say often, when I was a kid going through this – right? – it was like the 90s, and Jerry Springer was where you saw trans people, right? [Kyle chuckles] And it was, [in a southern accent] “I didn’t know my wife was a man!” or whatever.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
SARAH RAY
Like, it was not a positive projection of gender diverse people. And so, yes, we need to have those positive examples.
KYLE GETZ
I will say, also, my exploration of gender, clothing, and even gender identity, has all happened since COVID.
SARAH RAY
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
I have gotten- When I have depression- When I had particularly bad depression – or, most of my life – I’ve not thought about any of this stuff, because depression took up so much room in my brain. So getting treatment for some of the things I did, opened up me to- I still explore and work on depression and anxiety, but it opened up room in my brain to explore other things, which is great. The downside is: all of this has been happening with remote- during the pandemic with remote work, or not having a job, so as things- You know, they’re saying trends are- There’s less remote jobs, like, people may be starting to require more in the office, or, like, I don’t know where thing- how things are gonna even out. I have not explored any of this in the context of a workplace setting, so it is terrifying, and I’m in the early stages where I could very easily just wipe everything and show up like I used to show up, and things might actually be okay, because that’s what I’m used to.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it- But it also feels like taking so many steps back in this process that I’ve been on.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. It can be very scary, for sure. And especially like, [huffs] when so much rides on employment, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
Like, it’s not just the mortgage, and eating so that you don’t die. Like, we- So, my wife works for national nonprofit now, and they are based in DC, so their insurance policies are DC-based, which means if you’re a remote worker, not in DC, none- none of your doctors are in-network, because it’s a DC policy.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm, yeah.
SARAH RAY
So, like, we took it for a year and it had like an insane, like $13,000 deductible, and it was just- it was the worst. Her medications, like, went up six times what we were paying for it. One of them was free, and they ended up wanting her to pay like $300 for it. We had been not paying for it under our insurance. So, we finally, like, are canceling her through the job group policy and purchasing insurance from the HealthCare.gov, whatever, network. It’s different for- Colorado has its own state-level marketplace, but like, never thought I’d be doing that! But because insurance is so typically tied to employment, and we’re in a position where we don’t have that, this is this is what we have to do. It’s where we’re at.
KYLE GETZ
I- Absolutely. During my work during the pandemic, this is also when I was getting high cost treatment for depression that my insurance- It was a shitty contract job. It was- It was fine. Hi, Mark, you’re okay. [Sarah laughs] It was, just- I got no- It was not- None of my treatments are covered. This is where I come from a very privileged place, where then I paid for it out of pocket, and they charged me much less than they would have charged insurance because I was doing that, they knew. So, it worked that I could get this treatment. Like, being depressed is very expensive.
SARAH RAY
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
And, unfortunately, not having a job can be one of the ways that depression manifests. And so, it’s- There- You are right, there’s so much tied to employment that has nothing- that doesn’t even have to do with making money and eating food.
SARAH RAY
No.
KYLE GETZ
I think about going on dates, like, what, am I going to sit down- This is- My personal insecurities like, when I sit down and go on a date and they’re like, “Hey, what do you do?” and I have to be like… what’s my answer to that? Like, I don’t- And- I actually want to- During Patreon, we are going to talk about – what is the phrase? I have a right here. Everyone is fine, hold on, let’s get – uh, productivity guilt, where we’ll talk more about some of the guilt associated with not being productive.
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, unemployment. Any final words? Any parting thoughts before we take a break?
SARAH RAY
[huffs] I don’t know. I feel like, in a lot of the topics that we’ve talked about from this stuff to the news, like, so much of what’s happening in our country, in our culture, specifically, I feel like comes back to a compassion problem. Like, compassion and empathy is a thing that we are just not doing real well right now. And so, when you think about people who are unemployed, I think we can all approach that, approach those people, with a whole lot more compassion, and empathy, and understanding than – you know – than we previously do where we detach the person from the problem, and, you know, [in a mocking accent] “Well, you’re just- There’s lots of jobs out there. The McDonald’s down the street is- never has full staff, go take that job,” right? Like, okay, but there’s a person in there too, and like, we should care about the person. And there’s probably a lot more going on to whatever that scenario is than you’re going to be aware of, and I just- I think we need to just be gracious with people, you know?
KYLE GETZ
I- I don’t even like that I’m bringing this up. I think about when people celebrated the fact that Trump said “I use every legal loophole or advantage to my benefit,” and people cheered at that.
SARAH RAY
[sighs] Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
People were so excited. But when a person is unemployed, and use the available legal advantage of even applying for unemployment, or now getting health care, we demean those people, and it’s often the right – it’s often the Republicans, the same people that celebrated for Trump – will shit on people that do the same thing on an individual level.
SARAH RAY
Right.
KYLE GETZ
And I think there’s such cognitive dissonance that exists, that, I agree; I think, coming from a place of compassion, coming from a place of “There’s a human behind that, who-” yeah. That would help so many of our issues today.
SARAH RAY
And like I mentioned before, you know, our love of hard work, right? We also love this idea of rugged individualism, and that’s horseshit too. Like, I’d like- I’d love to see us move to a more collective sort of mindset – again – where, like, people are valued because they’re people, period. The end. Can we- Can we work towards that?
KYLE GETZ
Collective humanist compassion, or something like that, would be-
SARAH RAY
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I love that. Well, let’s talk- Let’s take a break and we’ll talk about productivity guilt.
SARAH RAY
Let’s take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON, with an audio splice of KYLE GETZ, replacing Mike’s name with Sarah’s]
This is the part where Sarah and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Are you… Do you need anything? Are you ready to just come back?
SARAH RAY
I’m good.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Hoo, so, are we back?
SARAH RAY
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We’re back! We are going to do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, thank you so much Sarah, for being on and for stepping in from Mike, you did an amazing job.
SARAH RAY
Oh, thanks!
KYLE GETZ
Where can people learn more about you?
SARAH RAY
Uh, you can find all of my projects at callmesarah.com, that’s kind of my main website, it has all my things on it. You can check out SarahTalk, is one of the podcasts that I do, at sarahtalk.com and @SarahTalk, or @SarahTalkPodcast, or something on all the socials. [TN: her Twitter handle is @SarahTalkRadio, and her Instagram handle is @sarahtalk] [Kyle giggles] We are still not consistently back with that yet since the move, but we’re getting there. And then, the new show that I’ve got going on with my friend Allie Ashmead from GO Humanity, is called Humanist Trek, and that’s a humanisttrek.com, and @ or / HumanistTrek on all the things, and we watch an episode of Star Trek each week, and then talk about the sort of humanist topics and implications that Gene Roddenberry baked into the series. Like, from jump, he was telling stories through the lens of humanism. And so, it’s great, because if you’re a Star Trek fan, Mike, you’ll find something there. If you’re not a Star Trek fan, we’re talking about themes- this humanist idea of taking care of each other, and, you know, there’s no one looking out for us, so we have to be there for each other. And-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
SARAH RAY
-telling those stories through the lens of sci fi is one of the best ways that we sneak those stories in. Gene was talking about, like, race and all- war, all kinds of issues that were going on, present day, through the lens of – you know – green aliens on a faraway planet. [Kyle chuckles] So, sci-fi has always been a good vessel to tell those stories in, and Star Trek’s kind of my fave.
KYLE GETZ
It absolutely makes sense that those things are connected, and I’m so glad that you’re doing that. Humanist Trek is the podcast to listen to right after this one. Well, you can find us at gayishpodcast.com. Boy, I have to do all of this. Okay, uhh our-
SARAH RAY
I have my lines ready to go.
KYLE GETZ
Shut the fuck up, are you seriou- Okay. Okay! [laughs]
SARAH RAY
Our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
You are continuing to blow me away. Okay, we are on a bunch of socials, @gayishpodcast or you can join our communities on Discord, Spaces, or Facebook groups.
SARAH RAY
Our hotline: you can send Mike and Kyle dick pics and Gayish fanfic [Kyle laughs] to 5855-GAYISH. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Nailed it. Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
SARAH RAY
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882, Seattle, Washington, 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Mike, you- Did you just lose your job, Mike? I- Do- I might like Sarah better than you, so… I’m- We’ll open up the position to both internal and external applicants, [Sarah laughs and claps] this will make- you can reapply for your role, if you want to. I’ll consider your experience strongly when I make my final decision. Um, thank you Sarah. We are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest. Uh, Sarah, would you like to go first?
SARAH RAY
Sure. So, I actually have three; I’m gonna give you a gayest, a straightest, and the transest.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Please do that.
SARAH RAY
So, I have been winterizing our house, and, moving from Florida up to the north, like, this is not a thing we had to do in Florida because it never got that cold. But so, now I’m doing all these, like, handyman around the house crap, like [Kyle laughs] closing up the air conditioning, and taking all the screens out, and blowing out the sprinklers, and that stuff feels very straight to me.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yep, yep.
SARAH RAY
Uh, my gayest is, I have- We are those people that take down Halloween on the 31st, and put up Christmas on November 1st. [Kyle chuckles] Don’t be a hater; let people enjoy things. Um, so- But we have probably spent- God, I’ve probably spent like $500 at Michaels already, [Kyle laughs] just on Christmas decorations. And I, like- [huffs] It’s a brand new house, we have to start all over. So I had to make all of the wreaths, and climb out on the roof, and hang them all up, and get them all perfect, and we have these- We’ve been crafting a lot – right? – so we made these giant bells that hang under the lights on our garage.
KYLE GETZ
Ooh.
SARAH RAY
So I’ve been doing lots of Michaels shopping and crafting.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- [chuckling] Seems like the gayest thing someone can-
SARAH RAY
Super. For sure. And then, my transest: as you may know, I was rear ended by a semi on my way to work at the zoo one day and my Jeep Gladiator was totaled, so now we’re down to one Jeep, and I feel some type of way about that too. Like, this is the first time since 1994 that I haven’t had, like, [emphasis] my Jeep.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow.
SARAH RAY
Anyway, this one has been needing service for a really, really, really long time. Like, all the lights on the dash were on, [chuckles] right? Like, it needed an oil change, and there was a tire- the pressure was low, and the brakes were really bad, so I sent my wife to take care of it. [Kyle laughs] Just avoiding stereotypically masc places – right? – like the mechanic shop, seems pretty transfem to me.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, my gosh.
SARAH RAY
Like, I- [Kyle chuckles] I don’t want to go sit at the repair shop for two hours while they do all this work. No thank you. So I sent- I sent Becca to do it.
KYLE GETZ
[huffs] First, I love that, and I- but I was also gonna add: I think the transest thing you’ve done – maybe in your lifetime – is when you described that you were pursuing learning on your own computer programming. [both laughing] Don’t trans- Isn’t that a trans woman stereotype? Like, don’t-
SARAH RAY
And probably that I love Star Trek, yeah. [Kyle laughing] Yeah those two things are probably- Yeah. Gave me away.
KYLE GETZ
Well, okay, then I will do my Gayest, Straightest & Transest. [Sarah chuckles] My straightest is: I know I’ve been using- doing stuff around my home, and like, putting- assembling things as my straightest for a while, and I’m gonna keep doing that, because, it escalated when I had a friend over. I got a bunch of beer, and I got grease on my hands from doing something, so the fact that there was, like, grease on my hands was like, no, I’m gonna need to use this again because it continues to out-straight itself. My gayest- it’s actually my lesbianest, [Sarah chuckles] is that I went to Home Depot to buy the items needed to achieve said home project. [Sarah laughs] My transest is I’ve been growing out my hair.
SARAH RAY
I’ve heard about this.
KYLE GETZ
And, so my- My goal is longer hair, and I don’t know how long, but much longer, and so for the first time in my life I’ve been having to figure out things like hair clips and hair ties, and I don’t have them figured out. The first time I tried to use a hair clip, I put it the wrong way, and tried to clip it and it went up, and I was like “Wait,” [both chuckle] so I had to flip it around. The, uh, exploration of how to do hair long good is baffling me, and, I thought, my transest.
SARAH RAY
Yeah. That’s the thing I think a lot of us trans women go through. Like, particularly if you’re not – you know – if you transition later in life, right? Like, I was socialized as a boy, so yeah I don’t- couldn’t sit around and braid each other’s hair, or, like, put on makeup or whatever. Like, I didn’t get to go through that, that awkward teenage time period where you get to explore and experiment with that stuff.
KYLE GETZ
You know, I remember being in elementary, and ask the girl if I could braid her hair and she said “No.”
SARAH RAY
[gasps] Aww.
KYLE GETZ
I know. That’s okay. [chuckles] I’m gonna-
SARAH RAY
That bitch.
KYLE GETZ
That bitch. That third grade bitch. [Sarah laughs] Um, listeners, If you don’t know: every week, Derek, our production assistant, posts to Instagram to ask for your Gayest & Straightest, and then he posts some of the best answers, so, follow us on Instagram. But, I grabbed two of my favorites, so the straightest- and these are great, because they’re just- they’re just right to the point of what they are. The straightest: devouring ribs for dinner.
SARAH RAY
Yep. Uh-huh.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Yep. Uh, gayest: I love this one so much: cock ring all day. [chuckles]
SARAH RAY
[laughs] Yes, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
So, nailed it in four words or less, both of those, so thank you to our listeners. Thank you much to Sarah, for not only joining but for cohosting and for stepping into Mike’s position in a way that has me rethinking [Sarah laughs] just who hosts this podcast in general. So, thank you for being here.
SARAH RAY
And thanks for leaving Mike, happy birthday!
KYLE GETZ
Happy birthday, Mike.
SARAH RAY
I do miss you, and I give Mike plenty of crap for flying literally everywhere in the world except to Colorado to visit me, so, [Kyle laughs] he kind of has this coming.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I also want to thank our Super Gap Bridgers, our patrons at the highest level that have been that for a year or more. Thank you to Christopher Muntean, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Staw- Shaw, Josh Copeland, – [huffs] sorry – Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, DustySands, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. So, from the Chris Khachatourians studio, that is it. I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week. Be butch, be fabulous, be you.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
Oh, Mike’s gonna be back next week. [Sarah and Kyle chuckle] Kyle, put that earlier in the episode. Mike will be back. It’s gonna to be great. He’s gonna be home, and it’s going to be great.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Other than Jonathan van Ness, why are so many famous hairdressers straight?! We talk about the hairdressing history, stereotypes, research and French people.
In this episode: News- 6:15 || Main Topic (Hairdressers)- 19:39 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:15:52
This episode topic was voted on by our wonderful Patreon Gap Bridgers! If you want to vote, either in the main poll or the tie-breaker, check out the levels and benefits at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
Why is gay Republicans? Rep. Dan Zwonitzer, a gay Republican Party member of the Wyoming House of Representatives joins to help us understand.
In this episode: News- 7:48 || Main Topic (Gay Republicans)- 19:34 || Guest (Rep. Dan Zwonitzer)- 32:59 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:15:41
Old white ladies are revered as gay icons, but should they be?
How was Angela Lansbury’s divorce gayish? How did Queen Elizabeth II really feel about gays? What about the original lady who lunches? And is Jessica Walter the Patron Saint of Shitty Mothers?
In this episode: News- 7:39 || Main Topic (Old White Ladies)- 16:45 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:10:55
In the Patreon bonus segment. Judy. Fucking. Garland. Get bonus segments every Friday by joining at the $5/mo level. Or, support us for as little as $2/mo to get episodes ad-free and a day early at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.