Two of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Rev. Sister Christiana Metroform and Sister Daya Reckoning, join us to talk about who the Sisters are, whether they’re mocking religion, and their feelings about the LA Dodgers controversy. Learn more about the local Seattle chapter at theabbey.org.
Gayish: 337 The Bible (w/ Joseph Peters-Mathews)
Rev. Joseph Peters-Mathews, gay married priest and father of two, joins us to explain the importance of the Bible, what it says about gay stuff, religious fundamentalists, and shrimp rules.
In this episode: News- 2:28 || Main Topic (The Bible)- 14:07 || Guest (Joseph Peters-Mathews)- 19:25 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:02:06
If you want to see us live, tickets are still available for our stops in Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, and Houston. Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for dates, details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, we talk about gayta for gay and trans acceptance among Christians. Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
Sponsor: JoinDeleteMe.com/Gayish and use the promo code GAYISH for 20% off.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast with a heart of gold…en showers.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. [chuckles] Great.
KYLE GETZ
Fill me up, baby.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, today…
KYLE GETZ
Today… [Mike sighs] thump your Bibles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Flip through the pages. Find Ezekiel 17:41 and read it to me, because we’re talking about the Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Get ready to know your wife, everybody, because it’s the Bible.
KYLE GETZ
Aw. You’re gonna make references to the Bible that I will not understand.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But the people listening will.
MIKE JOHNSON
The Bible uses the word “knew”, like, to mean “they fucked”.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, so and so “knew” so and so: that means that they fucked.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I knew like three guys this weekend.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But first… Uh, we’re back in Seattle.
KYLE GETZ
We’re in Seattle!
MIKE JOHNSON
After the live show.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…In New York.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We had one week, [chuckles] and now we’re back to normal.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Thanks again for coming to the show, everybody. It was fun.
KYLE GETZ
It was a lot of fun. It was a whirlwind trip for us. Yeah, it was great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it was great. Looking forward to than the other ones.
KYLE GETZ
It was so nice meeting so many people that cared- clearly cared a lot about us and the show. And I did not realize this: like, I think most people there have social anxiety of some kind. So, if you’re worried about going to a show because of that, like, you will not be the only one there, and you’ll meet people that know Gayish, know the show, and kind of get it, and are cool and chill. That’s just- was my vibe from everyone we met.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, absolutely. There’s also, um… a surrealness of, like, when people walk up to us and they’re clearly nervous to talk to us. I’m like “It’s just Kyle, everybody.” [both chuckle] Or “It’s just-”
KYLE GETZ
No, be fuckin’ nervous. [Mike laughs] You shall tremble before me, for I am your God. That’s from the Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It’s an-
KYLE GETZ
And I shall know you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ezekiel… something? Okay. Great. Uh, that’s enough about that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Gayishpodcast.com/live. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Now the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, this is not news the first, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, what is it?
MIKE JOHNSON
…Because he does not deserve a whole news item.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
If you don’t want to hear me talk evil about dead people, [Kyle chuckles] you should skip ahead several minutes. Pat Robertson is dead. Fuck that guy, fuck everything he stood for. The world is a better place without him. I hope that he is rotting in hell. I would like to encourage everyone to use his grave as a public restroom. Fuck that guy. He is dead, and…
KYLE GETZ
…Shit on his grave? Is that what- [Mike laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. He evil. He’s an evil, evil fucker. And, for those of you who have the, like, “Don’t speak ill of the dead,” thing: he fucking started it. Quote, “AIDS is God’s way of weeding his garden.” He said that as early as 1983. Fuck him.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. News the first!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [chuckles] Whew!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, news the first: right here in my backyard, at the bottom of the hill here on Aloha, is a restaurant called “Tanoor”. The owner of Tanoor’s name is Wassim Fayed, and he is also – there two locations to this restaurant, the other one is in a town called “Sammamish”, Washington – and he was on the city of Sammamish Planning Commission and they went through diversity, equity, and inclusion training a couple of weeks ago, and he came in front of a public – you can see it on YouTube – Planning Commission meeting on June 1st so that he could say, among other things, quote, [Mike groans] God… “I don’t think LGBT people should be considered a minority. Because of my Muslim faith, I disagree with that lifestyle,” and he described queer people, in a lengthy diatribe, as “wealthy, well-connected disease spreaders who infect and poison the minds of children in schools through movies and television.” He said that gay people are against God’s intentions, and is just a super-duper fuckface dickbag asshole. Now, because of the backlash of it, he resigned from Sammamish Planning Commission.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. That’s good.
MIKE JOHNSON
There has been a van that has been parked out front of the restaurant here, with a QR code that points to the YouTube of him saying all of these things just openly, like it’s perfectly natural in a public meeting.
KYLE GETZ
That’s really- Wow, thank you to that person, whoever that is doing that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So please don’t eat at that restaurant. I know I’m being hyperlocal but it’s, like-
KYLE GETZ
Really- [chuckles] Really low-targeting local, but hey.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I do think that there is a- There is a theme here, and I’ve talked about it on the show a lot. They are extra crazy this year.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The anti-LGBT folks are extra loud, extra crazy. This is the worst year of my entire out life, and I’ve been out for 15 years.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it is scary as fuck. And it’s always about God, it’s always about religion. So here’s a theme for today’s episode, because we’re talking about the Bible. This particular person is a Muslim but, like, fuck- Fuck everyone. Fuck their religion, fuck their opinions about, like, who we are and what we deserve, and fuck this guy. He and Pat Robertson should… I don’t know, bone, or something. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Wow, fuck everyone this episode, so far.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, the weirdest thing to me is “LGBT people should not be considered a minority.” I know that was the least shitty thing [Mike laughs] of all the things he said but, like, that’s just statistics, baby. Like, that’s just looking at the numbers. There- You can’t- You can’t decide what is a minority, because numbers exist. Like- I mean, maybe that’s why it’s standing out, is because truth does not matter, and it hasn’t since Trump. Trump emboldened people to be out about their, um, being shitty people. And I think that’s continued to snowball, in a not hot way, to make people be- feel emboldened this year, because of the far right, emboldened to be extra shitty and vocal about it. You are allowed to spew hateful, horrible things that you used to have to pretend like you didn’t… Like, at least to be decent in public. And you don’t have to anymore. There are no repercussions for being a shitty, horrible person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep. Yep. And I-
KYLE GETZ
And it’s fueling domestic terrorism.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that’s the thing. I was just gonna ask you if you have any sort of reservations about going to any private events this year, because, like, people have guns in this fuckin’ country.
KYLE GETZ
I have plenty of anxiety and I have plenty of social anxiety, but that’s not my, like, anxiety. I think, partially because I can’t- It’s just- Like, I can’t add that to the list of things I’m worried about, or I would be frozen in fear all of the time. I think there’s part of me that just tucks it away and doesn’t think about it, and part of me that knows: if someone’s gonna bring a gun, they could very well bring a gun to the bus stop that I’m standing at.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, sure.
KYLE GETZ
They could- You know? Like, that’s- In this country there’s always some kind of risk that someone’s going to bring a gun somewhere and do something horrifying, because that happens all the time here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I think I’ve just… washed that from my mind, and… for better or for worse, I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So no, I don’t think I have that anxiety. Do you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, no, I don’t know. Or, if I do, I decide to do it anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the thing. I’ll end this new segment with just the first news item, just by saying: if your fear of potential danger to your person prevents you from going to something, I think that’s okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s okay to listen to that. It’s okay. And, if you could bring yourself to do it anyway, I think that there’s- that we need as many people to do that as possible.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That, like, if you stay home, in a way, they win. So show up louder and gayer than ever… again, if you can. And if you can’t, that’s fine.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, news the second: students at Carroll High School in Fort Wayne, Indiana were planning to put on Adam Szymkowicz’s Marian, Or the True Tale of Robin Hood, which is a queer version of Sherwood Forest and its merry group of thieves. Some parents complained to the school district and said that portraying homosexuality on stage was sinful, so the school leadership informed the theater troupe that “safety concerns” prevented them from performing the play, and shut it down. Students were shocked, so they did it anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Niiice.
MIKE JOHNSON
Speaking of doing it anyway. So they contacted local media and others, including a playwright, for support. A lot of this is because of 18-year-old Tristan Wasserman. And, uh, they got $85,000 raised through a GoFundMe account. They secured a professional venue, professional services, and did the play anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Wow! That’s amazing. God, I’m like… “Am I going to cook dinner tonight, or order food?” [Mike laughs] Like, my- The amount of work that went into combating that hateful thing is very impressive to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Kids are gonna save the world, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a lot of pressure that we put on them, to be like “Sorry everything’s broken. Do you have the tape?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We certainly don’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
But that’s awesome that they did that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, that was that was May the 20th that they did it. It was at Foellinger Theatre. Indiana State Police and Indiana State Parks personnel were on hand to help out with security. And, um, they only had about 40 hours to rehearse it because they had advanced placement tests and finals during that period of time.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but I just think it’s- I just think it’s magical.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, just… Forgiveness versus permission, y’all. Do it anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fuckin’ great. News the last: a new documentary called “Art and Pep” has been released. Uh… what’s the- What is it on? I think it’s on Netflix. …Peacock. It’s on Peacock. Thank you. Art and Pip, a new documentary on peacock that documents the story of Art Johnston and José Pepe Peña, also known as “Art” and “Pep”, and their roles as LGBTQ rights trailblazers. Among other things though, they are the owners of the Sidetrack bar in Chicago, which is where we’re going to be doing our show. So, if you want to familiarize yourself with where we’re going to be doing our show, but also the fucking amazing story of the two dudes that founded it, go check that documentary out. I haven’t seen it yet; I totally plan to. Lots of people have been like “Please watch this.” But they’ve been together for 45 years and they have used Sidetrack as a hub for political activism in Chicago. And they said, for instance, quote, “bars were the center of any activism. We didn’t have churches…we didn’t have places to meet, so the bars were the natural place,” “I saw the harassment and I saw the way we were treated, and that sort of made a big difference in how I look at things and what things needed to be changed.” And it’s just- It’s really, really interesting to me that they are, like, on the frontlines of the HIV/AIDS epidemic and using that platform and that venue as a place to do advocacy, and education, and, um, treatment awareness. And then every, like, local political thing that has to do with LGBTQ rights in Chicago, that’s been like the headquarters of it. And, anyway, I’m just- I’m super stoked to see the documentary. They’re a-goddamn-dorable [Kyle chuckles] and we’re gonna go be in their backyard soon.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And we’re gonna go there and get up on stage and be like “Hey. Isn’t it funny when guys fuck each other?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like- You know? [both chuckle] These trailblazing icons, and we’re gonna be like “Hey, you know what’s funny? Shittin’ on people’s graves.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Dicks and butts! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Dick and butts, y’all. Dicks and butts.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, go see the documentary on Peacock and let me know what you think.
KYLE GETZ
Our documentary is gonna be called “Dicks and Butts”. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
You can be Dicks, I’ll be Butts. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. That… probably checks out. That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news! Uh, speaking of butts, I want to thank the following assholes. [Mike laughs] Thank you to our patr- [chuckles] Thank you to-
MIKE JOHNSON
So many Patreon supporters at our live show.
KYLE GETZ
So many Patreon supporters, yeah. Patreon, like, that’s where it’s at.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s, I think, more than half the crowd, I think.
KYLE GETZ
It seemed like it, based on the audience reaction. But I want to thank… I’m gonna go ahead and say these are initials, Tja.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tja?
KYLE GETZ
Because otherwise your name is “tuh-HAA”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tuh-JAA.
KYLE GETZ
Um… Jeffery Ishmael, Tom… hmm… Moyeralago- Moryala- …Mor-
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Nailed it.
KYLE GETZ
Mayoralgo. [TN: Tom Mayoralgo] That wasn’t actually that hard, I just got lost in the weeds. Um… Martin Andrew, jayson salomon. Thank you so much for-
MIKE JOHNSON
We signed his nipples! I know that bitch.
KYLE GETZ
We signed his nipples, yep, at the live show. [Mike laughs] Hey, if you want us to sign your nipples… I mean, there was a T-shirt between us, and the pen, and nipples, but-
MIKE JOHNSON
Details, Kyle. They don’t know. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Um, but if you want to get bonus content, episodes, video… ads a day early- Nope. No ads. And episodes a day early, and just support us and what we do, go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. I’m doing so bad this time.
MIKE JOHNSON
And half off of live show tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Half off of live show tickets!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Do it. …Do you wanna talk about the Bible?
KYLE GETZ
I guess so.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know you are, like- Are you nervous about this episode at all?
KYLE GETZ
No. No, no, no, not at all.
MIKE JOHNSON
No?
KYLE GETZ
Wait, why did you say that? Why did you think I’d be nervous?
MIKE JOHNSON
I just think that, like… Okay, my perception – maybe this isn’t your perception at all – my perception is that people are far more protective of the Bible than they are their religion or their particular sect of Christianity. That, like, it’s not okay to shit on the Bible.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
You can shit on the Catholic Church… Don’t shit on the Bible. And I’m so- I’m afraid that there will be a lot of shitting on the Bible-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-despite having Joseph Peters-Mathews, our favorite gay priest, is gonna be here to talk about the Bible. But I think we’re probably gonna have a lot of critical things to say, and I’m a little bit worried that, like, people will have a stronger reaction to that than they might to our general distaste for religion on this show.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. It’s definitely- Like, it’s sacred, so we’re gonna- It- This is like drawing Muhammad. Like, this is like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-doing something that you’re absolutely not supposed to do… and I don’t really care-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
-because I don’t- because your Bible isn’t sacred to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, if it’s sacred to you, awesome. If you get- And especially if LGBT people get some kind of power, and strength, and hope, and happiness, and joy, and love from the Bible, that’s awesome. I’m so glad, because I want people to find their happiness, and I think queer joy is part of resistance, and especially this year if you can find a way to be happy, enjoy your life, celebrate yourself and who you are… If that comes from the Bible… One, I’m surprised, but two, fuckin’ go for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
You know? It’s just- So I think the criti- Like, it’s not holy to me. It doesn’t matter to me. It’s a book to me. People wrote it. We criticize lots of books for lots of different things. I’d say, like, “1/5 stars, would not recommend.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t- I don’t care.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, chapter two is very boring, just so you know.
KYLE GETZ
I started reading. It was like “This person begat that person, begat that person, begat that person…” I was like… “Man, this is bad writing. We gotta pick up-” [Mike laughs] “We gotta narratively introduce these characters in different ways than this. We gotta find some different- I- You’re just listing the cast of characters right off the bat. I don’t-”
MIKE JOHNSON
And “So and so lived to be 900 years old.” Like, no. Already, no.
KYLE GETZ
I have… I have questions about this. [Mike laughs] Then again, Lord of the Rings, I think the elves live to be 900, so… it’s a- Maybe it’s a-
MIKE JOHNSON
Methuselah was an elf. I think that’s-
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Maybe this is a wonderful fantasy novel that I just- [Mike chuckles] I’ve just put it in the wrong frame of mind when I’ve tried to read it.
MIKE JOHNSON
You have tried to read it though.
KYLE GETZ
Someone handed me one of those little tiny pocket Bibles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
And, like, I literally, like, tried to read the first page and I was like “This is dumb.” I just wanted to know all the- what all the fuss was about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Have you? What’s your level of-
MIKE JOHNSON
I used to- I used to be- Like, I used to go to Bible study.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
I used to- Like, I tried reading the whole thing and, like a lot of people, like you just mentioned, I got fuckin’ lost in Leviticus, and I’m like “No, fuck this. I’m done,” [Kyle chuckles] “I’m done reading about shrimp rules or whatever.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] The Bible: Shrimp Rules. [both laugh] That’s the chapter of Leviticus.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, I know quite a bit, and enough to maybe be dangerous. And- But, like, obviously, also not a theologian. I’m not a fuckin’ priest, which is why I’m excited that Joseph is gonna be here. And he listens to the show. He knows what he’s walking into.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I’m pretty sure we can, like, not pull any punches, and have a good conversation with him.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate him as a person and what he does, in spite of what we say and do about religion. And I don’t know what the right approach is, but he’s working from the inside to try to change things and preach what I believe is a more loving, happy, accepting version of the Bible than I think some other Christians know or believe.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. Um, is there anything you specifically want to ask him?
KYLE GETZ
Ummmm… n- Now I want to know what the shrimp rules are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
If he could really outline shrimp rules for me, I think I’d be interested in that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m pretty sure that the shrimp rules are just “Don’t.”
KYLE GETZ
No? “No,” to shrimp?
MIKE JOHNSON
“No,” to shrimp.
KYLE GETZ
Well that’s a- That was an easy chapter. Next one. Matthew.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bacon. There’s also bacon rules.
KYLE GETZ
Bacon rules?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Bacon rules.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also “No.”
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Sorry.
KYLE GETZ
Man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Although, I’ve never met a Jew that doesn’t love bacon, so, like, I just- but they’re not supposed to.
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] …is that racist? I can’t tell.
MIKE JOHNSON
No!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- Is this like on 30 Rock with the whole “You can’t say ‘Puerto Rican’”? [both chuckle] Like, that’s what they’re called, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
No! Stereotyping all of them as liking bacon.
MIKE JOHNSON
I said- I limited it to my experience. I’ve never met a Jew that didn’t love bacon.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. Okay. Hey, Jews, [Mike chuckles] do you fucking hate bacon?
MIKE JOHNSON
If you’re a bacon-hating Jew, contact me. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Contact Mike. Let them know that you do exist and you will be seen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, this is dangerous.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break before we, like…
KYLE GETZ
Keep talking?
MIKE JOHNSON
…get cancelled. [both chuckle] You wanna take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
MIKE JOHNSON
…I’ll pray for you. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Please don’t.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back.
KYLE GETZ
We’re- …I almost said “We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, I mean, eventually we’ll get there. [chuckles] We’re here with the Reverend Father…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“The Reverend”.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Joseph Peters-Mathews.
KYLE GETZ
Well-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Or “Father”.
KYLE GETZ
And “Father”!
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And father two- multiple ways. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“Reverend” just usually doesn’t go with “Father”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. Well, it does here.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our house, our rules. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
This is our religion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, welcome back to the show.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
We have a whole style guide about how to address different kinds of clergy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So. It’s good to be back though.
MIKE JOHNSON
Am I giving you an inadvertent promotion by saying “Reverend Father”?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No, no, no. If you called me “the Very Reverend”, that would be the promotion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, the Very Reverend Joseph Peters-Mathews. [Kyle chuckles] So, we’re gonna- We’re gonna talk about the Bible and stuff, and do, like, a personal check in, but first, I do- I want people to know, in case they haven’t heard the other episodes that you’ve been on… because this is like number four, number five… something like that…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Something like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
…uh, you are a gay, married, Episcopal priest, father of two.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes, all of those things.
MIKE JOHNSON
All of those things.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, like, when we talk about, like, “Hey, let’s talk about the Bible,” like, you know your shit. Like, this is what you do for a living.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It is what I do for a living. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I do have a master’s in divinity. So I had four semesters of Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. That’s more than everyone else combined that, I think, I know in my life.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but yeah. First, personal stuff. So, last time, you and your husband were on, and your first child, and you had a second child on the way.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes we did, and he is 1 now. His name is “Finny” and he’s very fat and happy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
We thought that Topher was an easy baby, and then we had Finny and realized how much easier he is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, Topher’s now 3. An absolute threenager, [Kyle chuckles] and it is much worse than 2.
MIKE JOHNSON
Much worse than two?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But they call it “the terrible twos”.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And “the trying threes”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ohh. Does 4… Is there some relief coming at 4? Is it like “the fun-”
MIKE JOHNSON
“The fucked up four”? [laughs]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Closest what people say there, mhm. No, not really.
KYLE GETZ
And “five” starts with an F too, so you’re not gonna to get out of it by then.
KYLE GETZ
5 they go to kindergarten though.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, it’s somebody else’s problem. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, you have a place to-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s somebody else’s problem, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Topher’s good. He’s smart, he’s learning new things every day. He just got a twin size bed, which, he has been in a toddler bed which is the same size as a crib mattress and, like, I forgot how much bigger twin beds are than crib mattresses until I was trying to bring a twin mattress home from Costco and had to fold it to get it to fit in the car with children in car seats.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like a taco?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, we did not fold it like a taco. We just, like, folded the back end of it and then closed the door.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s how I deal with my closets, so it’s fine. Like, just shove it in there and close the door. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
And, what’s it like having two now? Like, that seems like it’s more than just double the work.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, it is more- Definitely more than double the work, because nothing is static. Like, every day there is something new with Topher and with Finny. So, like, Finn has two molars now that he didn’t two weeks ago, but he’s still waiting for two. And Topher’s language really started to explode around his third birthday. He started going to a preschool two days a week. It’s funny to hear him talk, because he knows, like, time-associated words but doesn’t know what they mean. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So he’ll say “Last year, we went to [fill in the blank]” but that could be yesterday, or that can be last week or last month. Or if he wants to do something more, he’ll say “I need 2 minute-th,” and that could be 2 minutes or it could be 45 minutes that he wants to keep doing whatever. So it’s funny, except when you really need to know what he’s actually trying to say, [Mike and Kyle chuckle] because the words have meanings, and he doesn’t really know them all the time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But what makes things hard is that they can talk- he can talk back now. [Kyle chuckles] And not like sassy back talking. There’s a little of that. There’s just, like, constant talking and asking questions, and a lot of it is just trying to understand. Like, he’s not being a jerk when he asks, “Why?” lots of times.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But sometimes I just want to close the car door and leave. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And not answer, like, “Why did you put my sunglasses in my cup holder?” I’m like… “So that you can reach them, because, in this car, I cannot reach the floor of the backseat while I’m driving.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And in three minutes you’re gonna be in the sun, screaming that you want your sunglasses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Are there any more kids on the way?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Um, no. There are not right now.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay. Keep us updated on your fam. [Mike chuckles] Do you want to talk about the Bible now?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about the Bible.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Okay, let’s just start-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, did we make- Is it a nervous face?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t know what I’ll be able to answer or not answer, so I’ll do my best and I’ll tell you if I’m making something up-
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
-and have further reading suggestions. [Mike and Joseph chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Is it gonna be the Bible?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s not okay.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay. Okay, okay, okay. [Mike chuckles] Phew. I just want to start by understanding. I never grew up any kind of religious, and so I- when I was just thinking about the Bible, like, why is the Bible so important? Why is it the book that everyone talks about, instead of other writings, or other things, or other… I don’t know. Surely there are important books out there as well.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
There are, but if- I mean, in the context of world religions, it’s not uncommon to have some kind of sacred text that is stories, or sayings, or directions for living as a community in some way or another. So, the Christian Bible includes the Hebrew Bible or the “Tanakh”, which is also known as the “Old Testament” that is still acknowledged and used by observant Jewish people today. Islam has the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita is very important in Hinduism. So, the Bible is Christianity’s sacred scriptures, and it is the stories of the Hebrew people in the Hebrew Scriptures and then a random prophet who had people following him around, that Christianity professes was crucified by the Roman state and rose from the dead three days later. So that’s in the four Gospels, and then-
MIKE JOHNSON
Jesus. That’s Jesus. You’re talking about Jesus. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s Jesus, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then there’s a little bit of history about the early church in Acts, and then most of the New Testament is Paul writing to churches – a miraculous conversion experience, never met Jesus – and then just, like, sends out letters. And so you’re getting one side of a conversation that the church thought was important to maintain from- It’s to remember how things were done, so that things would not be forgotten.
KYLE GETZ
So these are things that people wrote that, somewhere along the way, people were like “This is important for everyone to remember.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
“This is important for people to know about.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes. Mhm. Yeah, and there were- I don’t remember the exact date that the canon was closed. The canon is the authorized list of books in the Bible, but there are certain pieces- I mean, we have documents about texts that almost made it into the Bible and didn’t. The understanding, within most of Christianity, is that the Bible is divinely inspired. What that means means different things to different traditions. Some traditions will maintain that God dictated every word in the Bible, or that, like, God took possession of Paul and, like… [scribbling sounds]
MIKE JOHNSON
Made his hand move? [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
…made his hand move like it was a channeling experience. That is not our understanding in the Episcopal Church. Uh, that “inspired” is simply “inspired”, and that God had a role in what was being written by particular people, to particular people, at a particular time.
KYLE GETZ
So if you write something like real rad… like, I’m not talking just, like, good, I’m talking like incredible…
KYLE GETZ
Like Joseph Smith good. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
…could you-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That would be a new religion if- either a new religion, or people would just study it. Because there are, like, really good things that people read but that are not part of the Christian scripture.
KYLE GETZ
I’m fine for you to get into the Bible, I’m just saying. [Mike chuckles] I think you’re a good writer, and I think you could make the Bible right.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh, thank you. I don’t think I can. Uh, but I-
KYLE GETZ
Not according to the petition that I started. Everyone, go to gofundme.com/josephpetersmathews.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Am I getting the money from that GoFundMe?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know why I said “GoFundMe”, because I couldn’t think of the-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Or there’s a change.org petition.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, ‘cause I couldn’t think of the name “change.org”.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, when I was growing up, we were Catholic, had a big, big Catholic family Bible. And there are, like, books in there that are not in the NIV or-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah! That’s a part of the Reformation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, a part of that is, as-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, one of them was, like, “Habakkuk” or something.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Habakkuk is in the NIV-
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
-but First and Second Esdras are not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, the Wisdom of Solomon is not. Ecclesiasticus is not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, the Hebrew Bible canon – the Old Testament – was not fully closed as Christian scriptures were being written. So, these books, this is called the “Deuterocanonical” text, so the “second canon”, sometimes called the “Apocrypha”, that has been moved away from in academic and religious language because “apocrypha” implies apocryphal, some kind of secret or hidden, which is not supposed to- that’s not the perspective. So, those were written, counsels of rabbis decided that those were not going to be in the Hebrew scriptures, and early Christians were still looking to them. They were in the canon, but then, through the Reformation, they were removed from most Protestant canons. So, Catholics still acknowledge them. In the Episcopal Church, our understanding is that they can be helpful for use, but are not necessary to understand God’s message.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. So- And one of the reasons they wound up being excluded in the Reformation is because they did not make it into the Hebrew canon when the Hebrew canon was closed. So it was looking at “Judaism did not keep these, so we will not keep these either. We will just keep the ones they kept, and our books.”
MIKE JOHNSON
That sounds so messy, Joseph. Like, I don’t understand the whole, like… I don’t know. How can you get away from the idea that, like, this is a bunch of dudes sitting around and deciding, like, “What’s in? What’s out? Do we like it or not? How do we-”?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I mean, have you heard of our government? [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Well- [chuckles] Okay. Okay. Okay. Our government doesn’t proclaim to speak for God, though.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s true! And that’s an important thing. Not- I mean, for multiple reasons. The government should not claim to speak for God.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’ll see! 2024, everybody, go vote! [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But I think- I think it’s important to think about… I’m gonna read this quote from Peter Enns, who wrote a book called “The Bible Tells Me So”. He is a biblical scholar, and one of the things he says is “Many Christians have been taught that the Bible is Truth downloaded from heaven, God’s rulebook, a heavenly instructional manual—follow the directions and out pops a true believer; deviate from the script and God will come crashing down on you with full force,” but that’s not historically how the Bible has been understood. So, these dudes aren’t necessarily even thinking of themselves as speaking for God, in as much as trying to figure out how best to lead people who are following the same God as they are, in a most faithful following. And then it gets into some circular logic potentially, that is not logical, because it’s circular. Um, but it’s not… It’s people coming together, and there’s an acknowledgment that it’s people. So only the most naïve think that conclave, where a new pope is elected, doesn’t have some politicking involved.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And, politicking can be part of discernment. Like, people who wrestle with faith and, like, actively engage it can understand that that doesn’t mean that God is not present or acting, it’s just that people are involved too, so you have to figure out, like, “What is the best decision going to be?”
MIKE JOHNSON
So, let’s talk about the Bible and queer marriage, then.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Like, what- Is there- Is there a biblical foundation for saying that gay people shouldn’t be married?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Or that- And there’s not one for saying that they should, either.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because the Bible is… it’s collection of stories of people trying to get through, and if we understand the Bible, as the Episcopal Church does, as contemporary scholarship does, that it’s not this rulebook like I just quoted and was talking-
MIKE JOHNSON
There are shrimp rules. We talked about that before you got here.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
[chuckles] There are shrimp rules.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Pork rules and polycotton blend rules…
KYLE GETZ
What are- What are the shrimp rules?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Don’t eat shrimp in the desert, because it can kill you.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] I mean-
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know that I needed that advice.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s sound advice.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, the short version of the purity code found in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly in the first five books of the Bible, is kind of public health measures and how to keep what is really a small tribe of people who keep being conquered and taken over, alive, and to help them keep their identity as who they are. So commandments about worshipping God, saying the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord is one, the Lord is God”, that there is one God. So don’t go marrying people who believe in lots of different gods, because then you lose your understanding of who you are. The rules about- The dietary rules are things that make sense from a public health perspective in 2000 Before the Common Era, for a small group of people in the desert, like “Don’t eat shellfish,” because shellfish goes bad really easily. “Don’t eat pork,” because pork is really dangerous unless it’s really well cooked. So there’s not necessarily something inherently bad or evil about these other pieces, but there are rules for keeping people alive. So the [sighs] prescription against same-sex activity in Deuteronomy kind of has the same objective. Children don’t result from gay sex, and if you’re trying to keep a tribe together, and alive, and growing, you need to have sex in a way that creates children, and gay sex doesn’t.
KYLE GETZ
So, in that context, did they actually say “Don’t have…” like, “…same-sex relations?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. Yeah. There’s Deuteronomy 18:22, [TN: Leviticus 18:22] it’s like “Man shall not lie with man.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. So there is- I mean, there’s a-
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s not like a mistranslation or a misunderstanding.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No, those are just the words. And, if you take the Bible at face value, at its words as just they are, then there’s lots of problems with how we do everything in life today.
MIKE JOHNSON
There are some people out there – like, is Boswell one of them? – that would say that that’s not actually what that meant, that that was not a prohibition against gay sex, that that’s a mistranslation, misunderstanding, a oversimplification, a overreach of authority or something, but then there are those – and it sounds like you’re one of them – who are like “Nah, it says ‘Don’t have gay sex,’ but…” Dot, dot, dot, right?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that- Is it Boswell who wrote Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Okay. He deals more with the New Testament, and his writings-
MIKE JOHNSON
I just said “Yes,” without actually knowing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
That’s so confident though.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s who I thought I was referencing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Um, he- And I really like his book, but he is dealing more with writings of… writings in the New Testament and Paul. So- And what we do- It’s not so much a mistranslation, but it is a misapplication, and kind of that that Paul is writing about a couple of things happening, including temple prostitution of men and women, but also just the Roman system of having catamites in a way that is abusive.
KYLE GETZ
What’s a catamite?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
A catamite is if, like, you or Mike has, like, a teenage boy who is like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Is “just a hole, sir.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, kind of. [Mike chuckles] Sort of your apprentice, but also that, um, in addition to Mike having a wife. And then-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
He- That was not meant to be on the nose. [all laugh] Uh, but then he ages out and perpetuates the cycle of abuse. [chuckles] Um, and that’s a cycle of abuse. So, I think Boswell would- I haven’t read that text in a while, but an understanding would be that what Paul is more writing about is not being in right relationship, and abusive relationships. There was not a concept of same-sex marriage in the cis hetero patriarchal society of the 1st century. It just wasn’t a thing. But, as Boswell documents, or whoever wrote Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe-
MIKE JOHNSON
It is. It is him.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
-there came to be rituals within the church for committing people to life together – men together, women together, men and women – that weren’t necessarily sexual, but that might have been. And there’s- One of the rites ceremonies is the making of friends, but it’s super-duper gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [all chuckle] Okay. Okay. I guess we- We have to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, right?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure, we can! Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that- Is that about not having gay sex, or not?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Absolutely not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Absolutely not. I mean, even the Bible itself says it’s not. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Like, even the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures, say that the sin of Sodom is not sodomy, it is inhospitality. So, God sends visitors to Lot and, I mean, the story itself is not great. Like, the locals want to- There’s new men visiting, they’re angels, and then the locals want to “know them”, uh, to rape them.
MIKE JOHNSON
I told you, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
You did. Well, you said “sex”, but yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I said- Yeah, I said “The verb ‘to know’ means ‘to bang’.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then Lot sends his daughter out instead, because he knows that these are messengers from God. So, not great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then- But the destruction is not about “Oh, we tried to bang angels,” it’s about showing inhospitality to visitors on consistent level. And there have been warnings and trials. One of the things that Enns talks about in his book, The Bible Tells Me So, really well is that, as the stories are recorded, not just modern readers – like, historical readings – have an understanding that they’re not necessarily written as history books the way history has done since the Enlightenment, that there is a different kind of historiography going on, which we studied in my history degree. So, one of the things Enns says toward the end of the book is that God being written about as an angry warrior throwing destruction everywhere doesn’t necessarily mean that God was an angry warrior throwing destruction everywhere, it’s how the people who were encountering God experienced and remembered God, and one of the things Enns does is compare what the texts record too, just, like, the archaeological record. So, there’s just- There are massive destructions that are supposed to have taken place that there’s no documentation of. And so what you could do with that is you can say “Oh, the history is wrong,” or you can say “God hid it.” [Mike chuckles] I had a friend in college whose grandmother thought that dinosaur bones were temptations from the devil.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because dinosaurs aren’t mentioned in the Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, birds aren’t real. It’s fine. [Joseph and Kyle chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
They’re all spy cameras. Um, or you can say “These people weren’t writing history, they were writing a story,” and that, somehow or another, they triumphed, and so they recorded that triumph by saying “God threw hellfire and brimstone and obliterated this city.” But there’s no, like, giant Brimstone deposits where that place should be.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah, yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So it’s more about how to perpetuate the myth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm, hm, hm.
KYLE GETZ
What myth?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Any of the myths in the Hebrew scriptures, starting with the creation myth.
KYLE GETZ
Like- Oh. It’s interesting, because you’re talking about, like, all the context that comes along with any particular line or story, and I feel like, when they’re used against people, they don’t come along with this nuance that you’re describing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Right, and that’s one of the problems with what has happened in American- starting in American history and American Christianity, is just the creation and rise of fundamentalism, which was a reaction to early 20th century liberalism, that stemmed from studies and literature and just completely demythologizing all of the text. So you’ve got academics saying “All of this is a myth, so it doesn’t matter,” or saying “Those miracles couldn’t have happened because God doesn’t do miracles,” like “There are natural laws.” And so, in response, you get people who just want that old time religion, who’ve never dealt with nuance, and now everything they believe is being questioned so they sharply respond. And then their descendants, intellectual descendants if not genealogical, are the ones who show up at Pride with signs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because there’s just a rejection of nuance and critical thought.
MIKE JOHNSON
This phenomenon that you’re talking about now suddenly reminds me of the backlash against trans.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like the idea that trans people exist, are real, like, are a force to be reckoned with, the backlash against that is just from this, like, being afraid that the world makes less sense now.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But let’s go back to the assholes with signs.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, “the world makes less sense” is a great way to put it. Because it’s easier for some people to just think… [chuckles] I’m trying to remember the bumper sticker. Something that effect of “Oh, it’s- God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” And, like, pro tip: don’t get your theology from bumper stickers. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] If you believe in the God of the universe, however you understand that, more likely than not, they cannot be contained in the words of a bumper sticker. Uh, so some nuance is going to be necessary.
KYLE GETZ
But aren’t some people getting this message from people in your position, from pastors, from leaders, from the church itself?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Absolutely. In other traditions more so than mine, yeah. Yeah. Uh, who may or may not have studied to learn the nuance and history that I’ve been sharing. So, I read this book, The Bible Tells Me So, a few years ago… I had checked it out from the library on Kindle and then I bought it, but because it was a library book I didn’t do any highlighting. I was hoping to, like, come with a notebook full of quotes. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Uh, and I was like “I’m not rereading this book between Thursday and today.” [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We don’t do that much prep, you shouldn’t either.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But one of the things he talks about is that he went to college and graduated from a Christian school and realized that he didn’t know really anything about this faith he claimed to have, so he went to seminary to actually learn it and then he did a PhD in Biblical studies at Harvard. And he talks about them as three turning points and, like, having to figure out. And he wound up losing his job at the seminary where he had gone, because he just couldn’t not have the nuance, and people wanted a simplified version. But God is too complex, and understanding Christian stories, let alone beliefs, are too complex to just boil down to “God’s said it, the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.”
KYLE GETZ
I mean, existing- To me, it seems like a challenging spot you’re in, existing in a world where so many people are using their positions of power against someone like you yourself.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
How do you survive in that world, or what do you do in that world to keep the faith?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Well, I- I found a faith that would have me, for one, and that’s kind of been a discussion a little bit on Twitter in my circles this week, is that you don’t have to stay in a church or seminary that hates you. [chuckles] There are alternatives. And that was its own, like, thing for me, because I grew up Baptist in Alabama, and then I spent some time in the United Methodist Church, and I joined to the Episcopal Church in college. Queerness was not the most important thing to that conversion, but it was a part of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And knowing- I mean, so, I was confirmed in 2008. Gene Robinson had been the openly gay bishop of New Hampshire for 5 years by that point.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, I know that guy. I know the bitch. [all chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And even when he was ordained bishop, like, he had a bulletproof vest under his vestments and there were protesters outside talking about how “God hates fags,” “God hates the Episcopal Church.” So the way I deal with it is not dealing with assholes, if I can help it. [Kyle and Mike chuckle] Um, just not. It’s been a really hard learning, but a good one, that I don’t have to give bad faith actors any time. [laughs] Like, we sent out some postcards at my church to invite people to a cookout two weeks ago, and someone called the Thursday before and they said they had some questions about it and I’m like “That sounds great! What’s- What’s goin’ on?” and he said “Well, I wanna know why you have the symbol for a terrorist organization on the back of your postcard.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And I was like “I’m sorry?” and he said “Yeah, this Black Lives Matter logo,” [Kyle gasps slightly] and I said “We’ll pray for you, sir. Have a good day,” and hung up. [Mike chuckles] Like- And he called back like 15 times, and I answered one of those times and then I spent 45 minutes on the phone with the phone company to block unknown numbers, [chuckles] because I don’t owe him time. Like, he is not paying me to be at church, my church people are, and there’s work to do. And clearly, if that’s your starting point, you’re not interested in a conversation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Like, you just want to scream at me, and I got other things to do. So, when people are wanting to talk about God and the gay, if they are interested in a conversation, I can usually tell if it’s good faith interaction or not. And, like, I spend time doing that. And if they’re just, like, trying to “Gotcha!” me, I don’t have time. Like, I have two children under the age of 4, and a church, and a husband, and a social life. So that’s how I keep the faith, is by being among people of faith who support me in all of me. Yeah, and knowing what I know, both from academic training and my own experience.
KYLE GETZ
I think the downside is- That it totally makes sense for your personal life, to get through day to day and be able to live. I think we also though- Many- Like, you nor I, nor many of us, even though I’m not religious, have the luxury of not dealing with it, because the Bible then gets used in political contexts to make laws to start movements against us. So there is part of it- I’m not able to hang up the phone on that part of it.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
That’s frustrating.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, I bet. [Kyle chuckles] It’s frustrating for me! Yeah, because even people- Fundamentalists or self-proclaimed literalist, like, aren’t. They accuse queer folk and queer Christians of picking and choosing what to believe, but they do the same thing whether they realize it or not, and it’s an awareness of that confirmation bias that sometimes I can point out and sometimes I can’t. So, my go-to is in John 6. So, a part of the Reformation is rejecting the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. And so, extreme Protestant types say that communion is “just a symbol”, that nothing happens, but they also say that they’re literalists and, in John 6, like, Jesus is very clear. It’s not even like in the Synoptics where he’s with his friends the night before he dies and says “Take, eat: this is my body.” He’s much more explicit, saying “I’m the bread of life, those who eat my flesh and drink of my blood will not die.” And it’s not- There’s no metaphorical reading there, because the Greek verb for “eat” there is the same word that’s talking about “chewing on”. This isn’t like “Those who eat of me, who understand my teachings, consuming me that way…” Like, no, this is about eating, bro. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
They’re not interested in literalism about that. So, I- And it catches them off guard that I know that too, like, because I grew up in that worldview. And I know the Bible, not as well as some people, but better than a lot of people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I would hope better than most people. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I’m also really good at finding commentaries. Like, look for someone smarter and use their words.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, we were talking about bad faith actors just a little bit ago. I’m interested in figuring out if this is a bad faith actor, and then I have a question for you. So, in 2022, Utah passed a law that banned books containing, quote, “pornographic or indecent material” from the public libraries of K-12 schools. And then someone – an anonymous person – wrote a formal complaint saying that the Bible meets that criteria for prohibition in libraries. And then the Davis School District in Utah reviewed the Bible under that law and found that, yes, it’s inappropriate for kids under high school age. First, is that- Was that person acting on bad faith?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t think so; I think they were responding to bad faith laws.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay. That’s- Okay, I hadn’t-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So they’re working within the parameters of what has been set up, and sucks for you-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s what the Church of Satan does, right?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, sucks for you, LDS folk, Christians who got this law through, but, like, these are your standards. Here we go.
MIKE JOHNSON
So then- But the question that I want to have a discussion about here is: is the Bible appropriate for kids?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I think it’s context. I think… What is appropriate? Is-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t have kids. You’re the one with kids, yo. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. So- I mean, what we read to Topher is a children’s Bible, because a lot of the Bible is stories, sometimes of miracles, and some of those are horrible things if you just read them as they are. So, there are coffee mugs that some of my colleagues have that have, like, an ark with a rainbow from Noah’s Ark. But it’s like, Noah’s Ark is not a children’s story, because it’s about God destroying all of humanity and creation except for Noah and his family. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
But had a lovely sailing adventure. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Everyone went fishing… No animals ate each other on the boat… They’re all friends…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And there’s a… I think now she’s a seminary professor, whose career was dedicated to what she called “The Texts of Terror”, and that’s one of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Abraham being about to sacrifice Isaac, his son, is another.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
These are stories that I grew up with. And, like, they never scared me, because of how I was receiving them, which was from people who loved me telling the stories and getting beyond – in some ways potentially bypassing, like, just skipping around – the terror and destruction. But the point of the story is not so much “Everyone was evil so God destroyed everything. Look how powerful God is.” I mean, that’s certainly part of it, “Look how powerful God is,” but as much of it is that God didn’t destroy everyone, that there were people who were saved for following directions, which… could instill some authoritarianism.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, “Just comply…” “…Black Lives Matter” “…everybody.” Yeah. Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But the point is that there was salvation, particularly when you look at the archaeological record and there was no global flood about the time this was written. And that’s what a lot of the stories in the Hebrew scriptures are, is, like, something happens but God comes through. God does not abandon the Hebrew people. So, I mean, is the Bible inappropriate for children? Is- And I’m not meaning this is a kind of “Gotcha!” I think it’s the same standard of “How much of Greek and Roman mythology are appropriate for children?” in the same vein.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So if we think about how much raping Zeus does and, like, all the forms he takes… [chuckles] to rape people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or, like, Oedipus scooping his own eyeballs out because he accidentally banged his mom. That’s, like, you know-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
-maybe not for a four year old. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So yeah, I mean, I think that certain parts of the Bible are more maybe kid-friendly. And, by the time a child is checking a Bible out from the library, like, they’re probably able to read whatever is available to them. Like, when I think about my elementary school library, we did not have a King James Version of the Bible. We might have had some Bible stories or a condensed version, something more age-appropriate to an elementary school. As opposed to… my middle school, like, had copies of the Bible right beside other world mythologies. Like, that- And that’s when people get- think they’re being clever when they move the Bible into the fiction section, but the Bible is classified as nonfiction per the Dewey Decimal System, not because it is fact, but because it is a cultural piece of mythology.
KYLE GETZ
I remember, when I was a kid, my friends told me about the apocalypse. Like, that was the one thing that I knew from the Bible. They were like “There’s this guy-” It was at a sleepover, and my two friends who were religious were like “The apocalypse, there’s gonna be fire, it’s really terrifying.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“So you need to get saved and not get left behind.”
MIKE JOHNSON
And “It is imminent!” And fuckin’ Christians have been saying this for 250 years, that, like, “The end is nigh, get your shit straight.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s just- It’s terrifying. It’s spreading terror to vulnerable people.
KYLE GETZ
I think- I think, yeah, part of it. It did for me, that scared the shit out of me to hear that, like, everything’s gonna go up in flames and we’re all gonna burn if we don’t do, like, a certain thing that me and my family were not doing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Ugh. So, the apocalypse is Daniel, and Ezekiel, and the Book of Revelation, right? Like, how do you feel about all of that?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I love the Book of Revelation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why? Is it because it’s an amazing Prince song?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because it’s a very dramatic, super-duper dramatic, retelling of the Gospels. So, when you stop trying to- When you follow Jesus’ directions, of “Stop trying to predict when the end is,” and look at what the text says… Again, the story is not about the destruction, it’s about the salvation and God rebuilding everything, in Isaiah, because Isaiah doesn’t deal so much with apocalyptic visions but Isaiah talks about the new Jerusalem, the heavenly cities, portals always being open and everyone coming in, and Revelation is talking about God’s defeat of evil at the cosmic level, in very cosmic language, in the way that the Gospels talk about it at a much more pedestrian level of Jesus, the person, dying and rising from the dead thus defeating death, whereas, in Revelation, it’s the end of time and, like, all evil fully being defeated forever. And this expectation of it being the end is not just the last 250 years, it’s always been the case, like, because Jesus said “I will not be with you, until the end of this generation.” But, by the 2nd century, people are realizing “Okay, we have to figure out what to do,” because Jesus hasn’t come back. And… trying to remember which letter from Paul… I think it’s 1 Thessalonians where the phrase that, like, Republicans often use when they’re trying to implement means testing for social programs… which the data show does not work, like, at all. Just doesn’t work. Feed people. That’s what helps people get jobs, is not starving. So they’ll say that “If you don’t work, you shouldn’t eat,” and they’ll quote the Bible, but you don’t even have to have a degree to, like, look at that in its context. My summary of that whole letter is “Yes, Jesus is coming back, but don’t quit your day job.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Because that’s the problem that Paul was writing to, is this group within the church at Thessalonica who have decided they don’t need to work, because Jesus is coming back, but they’re living in basically a communal society like a commune. So other people are working, other people are feeding them, and they’re like “No, we don’t have to work, because Jesus is coming back,” and Paul’s like “You’re a drain to this group of people who have opted in to this lifestyle. You need to participate.” People who don’t work now are not not working because Jesus is coming back. Like, there is- [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s a very different context. And, you shouldn’t use the Bible to proof text laws about poor people. Like, the Bible is very clear how God feels about the poor, and it’s that God is on their side.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What does the Bible say about things like love and acceptance of people?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Big fan.
KYLE GETZ
Big fan? [chuckles] I mean, that- I feel like we always hear kind of the “Don’t be gay,” or “Don’t lie with man,” or other things, and I feel like we miss some of the other parts of the Bible. I don’t think we hear that as often from people.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Not from people who are making scenes, typically, no. And I think there are some layers to that, and that churches are kind of walking thin lines trying to demonstrate acceptance in some ways. Like the Diocese of Olympia has a presence in the Pride parade here, and there are people within the church – queer people within the church – who push back and say “The church shouldn’t be at Pride,” “The church still needs to be doing its own work in its own house,” and “Let queer people have a space where they’re not dealing with religion, positive or negative experience, positive or negative, because it is traumatic for some people and it can be triggering.” Even if the speech is attempting to be speech of love rather than speech of hate, there are people who just don’t want to hear it and would like an escape from it.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. I haven’t thought about that. Do you think religion should be at Pride?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
A different form of sort of the same question: what would you say to somebody who would tell us in our DMs or hate mail that having a priest on our show is triggering?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh… um… I don’t know. I would- I would apologize for whatever- for the hurts they’ve experienced. Um… I think y’all do a pretty good job of making your topics known upfront, like in the name of them, like in the name of the episode, and that it’s worth skipping if you know that that’s going to be your experience. Someone could just not listen. And that’s how a lot of [sighs] safety and avoidance of triggering experiences works anyway. I think that’s why there are content warnings, of, like, “This short story contains an instance of rape,” like, “Skip it if that’s going to be a thing for you. Here’s the upfront. Peace.” So yeah, I mean, I would- If they were talking to me, I would apologize to them. I’d ask what the church had done to hurt them, knowing that I couldn’t probably fix it but that there might not have been anyone in their life who has just listened to them from the church, and say “That was wrong. I’m sorry.” Which is an experience I had not- I had more than once. When I was in seminary in New York, I was a regular at a gay bar in the West Village and, like, multiple guys told me about how a priest had abused them, or their brother, or their cousin. And some of them were just wanting to use me as a verbal punching bag because they had not had that opportunity. And, like… that comes with the job for me, so I took it [chuckles] and apologized. And some of them calmed after the apology, because they’d never heard someone from- still associated with the church not be defensive and not say “That was wrong, it shouldn’t have happened. I’m sorry.” Uh… probably never go back to church, and that’s fine, but that there is space for the church to own its past wrongs, in lots of areas.
MIKE JOHNSON
To sort of get back to Kyle’s question too, I’m curious, are- The Bible gets used, the clobber verses and all of that bullshit-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-to the shit on queer people, and are there any, like, verses or parts of the Bible that are queer-affirming that, like, people can and should turn to?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Not explicitly. I mean, there’s some reading-in that can happen. Arguably, King David married his best friend, Jonathan.
KYLE GETZ
Aww.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Like, they had a kind of commitment service of some sort.
KYLE GETZ
Cute.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But the Bible is not… written- Its intention is not to be queer-bashing or queer-affirming. So what we can look to is Jesus’ direction to love everyone, and how that is reiterated throughout the New Testament for Christians. We can look at what Jesus does talk about, like Jesus talks a whole lot more about care for the poor than he does sexual ethics at all. And he does talk about marriage some. So… yeah, Paul’s chapter on love, First Corinthians 13, that gets read a lot at weddings, is a great kind of metric or measuring stick to… [sighs] I don’t want to say “hold up in sign holders faces,” because they don’t care. [chuckles] Like, they’re not actually trying to engage.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, but to ask if someone is acting in good faith. Like, ask them if they are being patient, if they are being kind, if they’re being self-seeking or not, because, like, Paul gives a pretty solid working definition of specific components of acting in love that you could measure yourself against and kind of grade yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Hm. My very good friend, Donna Suggarz…
KYLE GETZ
Hi, Donna.
MIKE JOHNSON
…that we play WoW with on Mondays, she said we should talk about hypocrisy in general, but more importantly Proverbs 6:16-19: “There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.” And in that list is not gay shit.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
But in that list is a bunch of stuff that I see a lot of Christians doing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So make a sign and stand beside them.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a great idea. Let’s do that. Do you wanna do that, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Hold up a sign that says “Don’t stir up shit.”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“- The Bible”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“Feet that rush into wickedness,” or whatever it says.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s what your sign could say. “Your feet are rushing into [whatever],” and then put, “compare-“ “cf.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, in Patreon, we’re gonna talk about some gayta.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I have a little bit of gayta on acceptance of gay people and trans people, that we’ll talk about and break down a little bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome. And, just, do you have a favorite verse? It seems maybe like asking somebody to… I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Pick their favorite child?
MIKE JOHNSON
Pick their favorite child. [Mike and Joseph chuckle] Which is fitting, right? [Mike and Kyle laugh]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t think I have a favorite verse… right now, at this point in life. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I like that. I think your favorites should always be written in pencil.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, okay, did you want to take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Should we all just listen to Kesha?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No, Padam Padam.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the gay anthem of the summer, apparently.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. It has been ordained by Reverend Kylie herself.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] There was the conclave of the elder gays. [Kyle and Joseph laugh] “Put the white smoke up the chimney,” declared- …Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, Reverend Holy Father Joseph, tell us, where can people find out more about you and what you’re up to? Tell us all the things.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, people can find out more about me on Sunday mornings at 9:30 a.m. at St. Hilda St. Patrick Episcopal Church in Edmonds. We livestream all of our services as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
You do?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Thanks, pandemic. Uh, and thanks, Diocese, for money to be able to do that. So yeah, there’s a livestream on YouTube every week. I’m also on Twitter, “JosephPMathews”. One T in “Mathews”. Same handle at Instagram, “JosephPMathews”. So that’s where I am. Uh, what else?
MIKE JOHNSON
What are you doing for Pride?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t know what I’m doing for Pride. That is weeks away. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It feels like an excuse, but I also understand why I’ve heard it from other parents before. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing tomorrow, other than going to church. Like, anything that is malleable, the plans will change. [Mike and Joseph chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of plans, you should make plans to come out to our tour.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
If you want to see us in Chicago, that’s July 29th at-
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey, wait!
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Buy your Chicago tickets now, because the price goes up in just like three days. So, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, what date?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, so the pre-sale price is good until Friday the 16th. So the day this episode drops you’ve got, like, today and tomorrow to buy cheaper tickets, and then- So save yourself the 8 bucks or whatever it is and buy it now.
KYLE GETZ
Get your tickets by June 16th. Seattle is June 23rd, Chicago is July 29th, San Francisco is August 13th, LA is September 10th, and Houston is October 15th. Come out and see us.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s my birthday.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, happy birthday. Come fly out to Houston for your birthday.
MIKE JOHNSON
Come to Houston! [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I shan’t.
KYLE GETZ
Um, go to gayishpodcast.com/live for all of that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Speaking of which, gayishpodcast.com is our website.
KYLE GETZ
We are on socials @gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Standard rates apply.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s do our Gayest & Straightest. Uh, I will go first. The gayest thing about me this week: I may or may not be dating and married man, which we’re not going to go into, but we went to a gala last night and he brought me a boutonnière.
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
I had a pretty flower on my suit and I just- I turned bright red, and it was adorable, and I just- Getting flowers from another man is like… that’s a thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s cute.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, and then the straightest thing about me this week: I worked out with hot Dakota, the hot trainer, again and the whole session we talked about Diablo IV. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] So excited about the necromancer. Play Diablo IV, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
MIKE JOHNSON
I love it.
KYLE GETZ
We’ll love that necromancer.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about you, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is that, when-
MIKE JOHNSON
Look, corpse explosion is amazing. Like, you kill something, and then there’s a corpse, and then you can push another button and the corpse explodes like a zit and hurts the other- Anyway. Sorry.
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is listening to that conversation.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is I am trying to avoid using Instagram.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
I think gays are, like, supposed to be on Instagram, and they follow everyone, and they have all their socials and all that shit, and I’m trying to not do that. I’m trying to avoid Instagram.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
That’s my straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
I need you to do some though.
KYLE GETZ
No…
MIKE JOHNSON
For the show.
KYLE GETZ
No, no…
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, Derek handles on Instagram but, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Anytime I’m on there it just makes me feel bad about stuff, so. Uh, my gayest is that, when we were in New York, when I got back to the hotel room, I would just turn on the TV. Since when do I watch TV? That’s a weird thing. Like, with commercials and everything. And I would- I looked on the TV guide thing and I found Golden Girls, so I watched me some Golden Girls-
MIKE JOHNSON
Aww!
KYLE GETZ
-both nights in the hotel room.
KYLE GETZ
That’s awesome.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! It was great! [Mike chuckles] Joseph Peters-Mathews, what about you?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, my straightest this week was, because my family is out of town, I just saved myself a ribeye and had it by myself with a nice glass of Washington syrah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s wonderful.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then my gayest has been binging Star Trek: Discovery because, like, are there straight people on that show? [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, season three especially.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just, like- There- Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
There’s this is trans lesbian couple who are like 12.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
16ish. But yeah, and then the lesbian engineer… who might not actually be a lesbian? I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Jett Reno?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, Jett.
MIKE JOHNSON
For sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then Mark from Rent, who’s super gay with his hot doctor husband?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So yeah, this is a gay show.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. There are moments when there’s literally zero cis straight white men on screen. And, like, that is fucking fabulous.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It helps when half the cast is aliens.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, that’s true. That’s true. [Kyle chuckles] I should have said “humans”. I should have added “humans” to my list of characters. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
With Star Trek you have to add “humans”. Most shows, you don’t have to add that. But yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah, that’s awesome. Well, Joseph, thank you so much for being here-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s been a pleasure.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and for being just you and your wonderful self and dealing with our bullshit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It was great.
KYLE GETZ
You still hold the record of most guest appearances out of anyone, right? Oh, no, maybe your mom might be ahead.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t think she counts; she has her own segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. That’s very true. We’ll get “The Bible with Joseph” as a segment goin’. [Joseph and Mike laugh] I also want to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, William Bryant, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for your support.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Be buying your tickets for Chicago, dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Yeaaah.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
The term for how Anglicanism is organized is “autocephalous” and it means-
MIKE JOHNSON
“Self-head”?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sort of! “Locally governed”.
KYLE GETZ
That’s like “I gave myself syphilis,” [Mike laughs] like “I fucked my own self and got syphilis.”
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 336 Bathhouses: Live in New York City
On the first stop of our 6-city tour, Mike and Kyle cruise the topic of bathhouses live from The Spot in New York City. We cover bathhouse etiquette, the history of bathhouses, bathhouse gayta, priests in bathhouses, and bathhouse closures during AIDS.
In this episode: News- 6:08 || Main Topic (Bathhouses)- 12:55 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:09:55
If you want to see us live, tickets are still available for our stops in Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, and Houston. Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for dates, details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, Mike tells us more church bathhouse stories, and Kyle shares the gay/bi community attachment scale. Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish! [audience applauds]
KYLE GETZ
Wow. The podcast that’s here to chug wine or chug cock!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God. [Mike chuckles] [audience cheers] Again, Kyle, porque no los dos?
KYLE GETZ
I’m out of wine, so…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Mike and audience laugh] Uh, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, today…
KYLE GETZ
…We’re not going to tell you what we’re talking about.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re not gonna tell you what we’re talking about, because we do that for no explicable reason whatsoever for the live shows. But you’ll find out here in just a second.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I first want to ask: there were people singing, that was so cool, but how many people have heard this podcast before? [audience cheers pretty loudly]
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
How many people have never heard this podcast before? [audience cheers quietly]
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [Kyle and audience chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Like what- What favor do you owe that person? [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
A little less “Woo,” than- Yeah, what do you- [Kyle and audience chuckle] Speaking of chugging cock, you owe them one tonight.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly right. Uh, so, if the chugging cock joke didn’t remind you, this is a very not safe for work show, it is R-rated. So, if that’s not good for you: why are you here? [audience chuckles] Uh, this show is about gay stereotypes. We do one topic per week and we’ve been doing this for a little over six years. Have yet to- We’ve only missed a handful of weeks in like six years, so. Uh, quick note, please take as many selfies, as many videos as you desire, as you want to, because we are beautiful. Just be sure to post them and tag us @gayishpodcast so that Derek – who’s not here, he’s in St. Louis – sees them and has a lot of work to do when he’s done with vacation because we like to punish him that way.
KYLE GETZ
And he like it.
MIKE JOHNSON
And he likes it. He definitely likes it.
KYLE GETZ
Speaking of us being beautiful, what are you wearing, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m wearing my Pride Month demon shirt. [Kyle chuckles] [audience applauds loudly]
KYLE GETZ
Very fitting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I love it. Can we see your shoes?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, and these gay-ass shoes.
KYLE GETZ
Put your- Put your feet up. [audience cheers] Those are so cute.
MIKE JOHNSON
They are very cute.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And you’re in your gold skirt, which, I’m a big fan of that. [audience cheers] And also, sparkly gay-ass shoes.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, hold on, let me put my knees…
MIKE JOHNSON
No, don’t! [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Take a peek!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God. Okay, well, um… Nice.
KYLE GETZ
Nice. Thanks. Thanks, bro.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uhh, so, if you’ve heard the show, you know that at the very end we do our Gayest & Straightest which is the stereotypically gayest and stereotypically straightest thing about us for the week. And, if you would like to share yours, we’re going to take 4 volunteers from the audience to do that. So be thinking about how and whether you want to participate, because it’s gonna be great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. This is first and foremost a podcast, so we’re recording right now. This is gonna be the episode that comes out on Thursday, so you could be on an actual podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Also, at the break, again, inexplicably, it’s a live show tradition that we do shots when we take a break. So if you want to take shots with us, make sure that you have shots. And be very nice to the people that The Spot who have been so kind to let us invade them today. Uh, let’s see… I had something else to say.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
What was it?
KYLE GETZ
I have “generic chit-chat” up top, so do you want to generically chit-chat? [Mike laughs] [speaking stiltedly] So, Mike, what has your New York experience been like so far?
MIKE JOHNSON
We hung out with Minoritea Report last night. That was pretty fun.
KYLE GETZ
We did! Minoritea Report is another podcast, take a listen to them if you haven’t, but we talked to them virtually, through a screen.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I don’t know if y’all know this: the bars close here at 4. [Kyle chuckles] So if you’re depending on the bar to tell you when it’s time to go home, it is a very different experience than it is back home. [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] Good Lord.
KYLE GETZ
I close at 2.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
So you gotta get in before for that or you’re not getting anything. Um, the one thing I wanted to ask you up top, if you noticed…
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Sure.
KYLE GETZ
So, we got in yesterday… Did you- Our Lyft driver…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Did you see him eating a sandwich… on the way? [Mike laughs] Did you see that it was just two pieces of bread? [Mike laughs] It was no- There was no sandwich part of the sandwich!
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that a sandwich?
KYLE GETZ
It was- He went too deep in the bread and then [Mike chuckles] forgot all the other steps to it! So, I don’t know. I didn’t know if you saw that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I saw that he was eating something, I did not pay that close attention. So, thank you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem. I think we chitchatted.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay great. Moving on… [Kyle and audience chuckle] We do have a 100 Words this week. So, at a certain level of Patreon support, if you send 100 words in, I will say them. Doesn’t matter what they are. Uh, and normally don’t do that for a live show, even if we have one in the queue, but this one I thought was extra special. So here we go. Uh, “Hi, Mike and Kyle. Happy Pride Month. I’ll cut to the chase so I can get right to using daddy Mike’s mouth. Here’s my 100 Words. Now more than ever, we need to remember that Pride is a riot. Pride is a rebellion. Pride is a reminder. 2023 has seen 500+ instances of anti-LGBT+ legislation brought forth by conservative cowards. These cunts are cornered and lashing out because they know their time is coming to an end. They are going after what they think are the weakest members of our community. What they don’t realize is our pride came from trans women of color. We will continue to fight for our right to exist, and anyone that doesn’t like it can catch a brick to the face. Terrance D. Sterling.” [audience cheers and applauds]
KYLE GETZ
I love that when our listeners write in they write really, like, passionate, moving things. I’d be like “Dick butt.” [Mike chuckles] Like, I’d just make you say- Like, I don’t know. That’s very sweet. Thank you for writing that in.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or “lizard” 100 times in a row, which, that was a lot to handle.
KYLE GETZ
Or more “lizard” 100 times. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, I think- I think that’s it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re- Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, we’re ready for the news then?
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole [Kyle chuckles] it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God, there’s so many people who say this is the only source of news in their lives, and I still can’t fucking believe [audience laughs] that that’s what they have for their existence. Okay, news the first. So, the FDA has released a warning reiterating something that they said last year, that you should make sure, the next time you reach for a 5-hour Energy, that it’s not a bottle of poppers. Don’t drink poppers. [audience goes like “eugh” then laughs] When you- [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Hunnies… [Kyle chuckles] do we need to have, like, a big talk?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Do we need to sit the children around and explain poppers? Like- I mean, this crowd definitely knows what poppers are so- I mean, not here, but, like, do we need to have a sit down? Who’s- Who’s…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Apparently enough people for the FDA to care. [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ow. Ow!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, so it’s adorable too because all of the news about it has mostly been written for straight people, which is like [Kyle and audience laugh] “’Poppers’ is a term used to refer to a variety of liquid chemicals, typically amyl nitrate, which are sometimes inhaled by people recreationally for enhanced sexual arousal and temporary relaxation.”
KYLE GETZ
I’ve told you my popper story. I once encountered poppers in the wild. I was at a friend’s party and it was dying down, there were less and less people but there were, like, straight people, some gay people, women, men, and all of a sudden there were like five of us and someone got out poppers and started passing them around. And I was like “Oh my god, are we all about to fuck?” [Mike and audience laugh] Like, I- It turns out people use poppers just, like, for fun at parties or, like, on the dance floor. I was unaware of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I fucked all of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
One at a time.
MIKE JOHNSON
We were at the bar last night, Kerel and I were, and we were talking to a guy who was- he said he was a porn star, his name was Spike. And, uh- [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That narrows it down.
MIKE JOHNSON
And he just, like, whipped out his poppers in the middle of the bar. And, like, I don’t know. Apparently that’s how they roll. Speaking of which, that was at the 9th Avenue Saloon, which is where we’re gonna go after this, if y’all want to come hang out. [Mike chuckles] Um, yeah! Okay, so don’t drink poppers, everybody. Apparently people are dying. [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
People are dying?!
MIKE JOHNSON
People are dying.
KYLE GETZ
Oh shit!
MIKE JOHNSON
There are deaths and hospitalizations.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow, I have not been treating this with the gravity that it deserves.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fine.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the whole podcast, I think, in a nutshell. Uh, people accidentally ingest poppers all the time, thinking that they are energy drinks despite the FDA, again, reminding people a few years ago. Uh, but “A single mistake can prove fatal,” The FDA wrote on its social media channels on Wednesday, “Drinking or inhaling poppers seriously jeopardizes your health.” Also, it means you’re out of poppers. [Kyle and audience laugh] News the second…
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the Temecula Valley school board has decided that 11,000 students don’t need a new social studies textbook, the reason being that the one that they were considering using for that school district – again, this is 11,000 students – didn’t actually mention Harvey Milk in the book. But the teacher’s supplementary material mentions him as a possible topic of conversation in the classroom, so that meant that the whole book needed to be thrown out.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
And now they’re looking for a new- a new book. So the measure passed by a vote of 3 to 2 to not accept that book because it says “Harvey Milk” in – again, not in the textbook – but in the teacher’s guide. And the board’s president said that Milk was a “sexual predator” and a “pedophile” and that’s why they needed to not have that even-
AUDIENCE MEMBER
[audience oohs] Oh, what the fuck?
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly! What the fuck?
KYLE GETZ
Chug some poppers.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Fuck off.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I mean, I- I mean, yeah, she clearly needs to get laid at least. Like, I think that would maybe- Um, but yeah, so, you know, conservative parents are, like, out of control this year, I think this year more than any in recent memory, and it just keeps happening. Jennifer Wiersma, one of the board members who voted against the book, said, quote, “I don’t want my 3rd grader studying an LGBTQ issue. I don’t want them going into gender ideology.” Like…
KYLE GETZ
I don’t care! That doesn’t matter! That is not important to me. I really don’t care what you want.
MIKE JOHNSON
You dumb bitch. [Kyle and audience chuckle] It’s- But this one stuck out to me because it’s California. Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, we think of the coasts as being very, very blue, liberal places, but they really are blue dotted cities that are still in a mostly sea of red, rural places.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And Temecula, I know a lot of people go there to drink wine but, like, it’s pretty rural. So, um-
KYLE GETZ
My homeschool district has been one of the ones in Texas banning a lot of books by LGBT people, by people of color, anything that they deem CRT.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which is a broad variety of-
MIKE JOHNSON
Or “woke” or whatever. Like, just label it something you don’t like and- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. It sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike sighs] Okay, news the last. So, this is fantastic. So, there is an anti-drag law that made it all the way through the Tennessee state system, and a Tennessee judge has ruled that the drag show ban is unconstitutional.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, sweet. [crowd cheers and applauds]
MIKE JOHNSON
There was a two-day trial and it was signed- Oh, sorry, the bill was signed into law in March by Republican Governor Bill Lee, which, Bill Lee…
KYLE GETZ
Billy. [audience laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Billy.
KYLE GETZ
Bill Lee.
MIKE JOHNSON
Get with it. Anyway, so- But it was struck down after just a two-day trial, saying that it was unconstitutional, by a Trump nominee, [Mike chuckles] US District Court Judge Thomas L. Parker. So-
KYLE GETZ
He can chug 5-hour Energy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] Yeah. Yep. Uh, anyway, so there is hope that there will be some remedy in the courts to all of the absolute blatant fuckface asshole dickbagery that’s happening across the country. We’ll see.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news! [audience chuckles] Um, before we move on to the main topic, I just want to thank Patreon. Patreon supporters are the reason we can even do a tour and come here.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re paying for this beer, Patreon. [Mike and audience laugh, then audience cheers and applauds]
KYLE GETZ
So, for any of our- Are any of our Patreon supporters in the audience? [a couple audience members cheer] Oh my god. Bunches of you. Hi, everyone. [Mike chuckles] I’m not reading any names because I- I’m scared to do those when it’s not live, much less when we’re in front of people. So thank you so much, Patreon. You can go to patreon.com/gayish [TN: patreon.com/gayishpodcast] to join and sign up for bonus content, uh, video, uh…
MIKE JOHNSON
Nailed it. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Now I forget what we do, completely, but it’s a lot of fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, you ready for the topic, everybody?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We are gonna hold up a sign and, when we hold it up, you are going to yell this out loud back at us. Are you ready? [audience woos] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
3-2-1…
AUDIENCE
[yelling] Bathhouses!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s right. We’re gonna talk about bathhouses.
KYLE GETZ
Y’all were too excited about that. [audience and Mike laugh] You’re dirty.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] Uh, so- So, every time we point to you…
AUDIENCE
[yelling] Bathhouses!
MIKE JOHNSON
…you’re gonna see it again. Exactly right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because it’s funny. I like making people yell things. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Domming the audience?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you know. It’s got-
KYLE GETZ
Daddy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, you got to earn that daddy cred.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] Who here is okay admitting that they’ve been to a bathhouse? [a few audience members woo]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeeah!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Not as many cheers as for Patreon. Patreon: more popular than bathhouses. [Mike and audience laugh] That’s our new tagline for sure. Okay, have you- You’ve been to a bathhouse, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, not today… [Kyle and audience chuckle] but yes.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, how did last night go? [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Um, I’m gonna talk a little bit about tips for visiting a bathhouse, that I found on the internet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, I wanna-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, you didn’t answer the question.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’s very true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sly dog.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Have you been to a bathhouse, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I’ve been a handful of times.
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Kay. How many handfuls? [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Just enough. Um, usually when I’m drunk.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Which, that’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t advocate going sober, actually. [Kyle and audience laugh] So, like-
KYLE GETZ
Okay, then I went- I’ve gone the recommended amount of drunk. Okay, so I’m going to give some tips. This is a tip that I found on bathhouseblues.com, a page that has been deleted. [Mike and audience laugh] Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
So how did you get there?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, from the Wayback Machine that then can find old- Wikipedia referenced this when its- for its section on bathhouses.
MIKE JOHNSON
So fancy.
KYLE GETZ
I went to the internet one day. [Kyle and Mike chuckle] No, I’m not gonna tell. Okay, this tip is that, bathhouses, “It is a sexual playground for men to do whatever they want: a place to get sex 24/7, like a 24-hour convenience store.”
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Woo!
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Eugh.
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
I would- I would argue against [Kyle chuckles] treating bathhouses like this, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I can get chips there. Can, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh! Okay.
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna talk about that later.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Uh, but- Uhh, don’t- This- I think one- Some of the stereotypes around bathhouses are that every gay man goes to bathhouses every night, we’re always hooking up, we’re always fucking everyone, and that bathhouses are like dirty, raunchy places.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, these are some of the stereotypes, and this one, I think, plays into that stereotype that you can just go and do whatever you want 24/7, when you shouldn’t really treat them like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Kay.
KYLE GETZ
I think there’s far more, maybe, more tips around, like, consent or how to handle different situations that we need to talk about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Okay, okay, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Um, some men choose to go to the baths with their friends.
MIKE JOHNSON
No. [audience laughs] I mean, like, I get it. I am not- I am not as tuned in to separating sex from friendship as, like, the other gay men that I see in my life. And I will not be going there with you, just so you know.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, with you? No. [Mike laughs] But- [Kyle chuckles] But I like other people better, so, um… [Kyle, Mike, and audience laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
It seems like an interesting thing to, like, I don’t know, mix that together. Like, the less- I don’t- I just don’t- I don’t want- I don’t want people over for dinner and then, like, to go hang out at a bathhouse together. And, like, no judgment. Do that, go for it. That’s fantastic. It’s just not how I’m wired, I guess.
KYLE GETZ
I have gone with a friend before.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. How was it?
KYLE GETZ
It was good. It was fun. It’s, like, kind of like… It’s like money in the bank, you know? Like, if I go there and there’s no one there, like, alright, cool, you’re already here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. [audience and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Is that not how you treat your friends? Like a great backup plan? Mike, if we’re not married by next year…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
…we’re gonna marry each other. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
No, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Um, some require membership. According to some state laws, some bathhouses can only operate as private men’s clubs. So don’t be surprised if you show up in an unmarked door maybe, and show up and have to buy a membership in order to get in.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- That’s always been the case. I’ve never been somewhere that wasn’t like “Oh, you have to be a member,” but then also immediately offered a membership, right? Like, it’s not like an exclusive thing.
KYLE GETZ
Wikipedia, in its tips and tricks section – its Etiquette section – that I was a little bit horrified by, did offer, like, “It may be this, but it may not be this.” Like, it was really hedging its bets on how this works, because I don’t think they know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, bathhouseblues.com also offered this suggestion: “You don’t go to sauna to play Scrabble.” Sorry, I pictured it in this tone: [in a judgmental tone] “You don’t go to a sauna to play Scrabble.” [Mike and audience chuckle] “As soon as you’re in the locker room getting your white towel, eyes begin roving.” So, you’ll get your white towel, go to the locker rooms, you have a key, key to a locker room, then you’ll probably take off your clothes and put on the white towel and that’s what you’re going to use to walk around in most of the rest of the time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm, mhm, mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, confirm. This is your experience?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, I was gonna back up to the part where you’re at the door, where you’re getting, like, a membership.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
I went to Steamworks in Vancouver, British Columbia. It’s been a while, probably 8 or 10 years ago now, but the dude said “Do you know where you are?” [audience chuckles] I was like “I hope so.” [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s so… That’s so mean!
MIKE JOHNSON
I know. Like-
KYLE GETZ
What about you said, like…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Straight guy or, like, I don’t know, clearly a prude.
KYLE GETZ
“I don’t fuck.” Yeah. [Mike laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know. Yeah, he was very- Like, he just wanted to make sure. He just wanted to clear the air.
KYLE GETZ
“This is Smashburger, right.” [Kyle, Mike, and audience laugh] “Is this where I place my order? I have a DoorDash pickup, is this is where I get it?” [Mike and audience laugh] Um, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a nuclear burn. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] I’m surprised you’ve got over that.
KYLE GETZ
Um… [Kyle chuckles] “Do you know where you are?” [Mike chuckles] Uh, “men talk to each other at [bathhouses], even forming long-lasting friendships or relationships”.
MIKE JOHNSON
See, this is why I think you don’t go. [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t say this, the internet said this! I’m reading to you what the internet said about bathhouses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Alright, alright.
KYLE GETZ
We’ll talk about this a little bit later too-
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
-because it kind of is true. Um, this is important. This is where- Getting into consent, this is where- This is not a 24-hour playground where you can have whatever you want like you’re at a convenience store. Uh, a look or nod is usually enough to express interest, and a shake of the head or pushing away a hand means that attention is not welcomed. I have found- That’s a good rule. Hey, in life, if any of those situations come up, maybe follow those guidelines as well. I find bathhouses to be better at consent than, like, bars sometimes.
MIKE JOHNSON
I agree. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
KYLE GETZ
Do you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I, like- I’ve gotten my ass grabbed at the bar before. And, like, at a bathhouse, not without, like, some kind of at least nonverbal consent given. Like, you can tell by people’s body language, like, whether this is an okay touch or not. And, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And I’ve found people, at least when I’ve been, have respected that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Have gone- If I give some kind of cue, yes or no, they roll with it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I have- Do you have, like, steps? Like, I have- When I’m dating someone, I have, like, all these steps to get to, like… you going on dates, then you’re dating, then you’re, like- You’re- All of that progress. I think there’s a progress.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It’s like The Game of Life with you. There’s like multiple branches. Like, you’ve got this whole system.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But then again, it’s very easy to learn… [Mike and Kyle chuckle] very hard to finish. [audience laughs] [Kyle chuckles] I’m on an antidepressants. [Mike and audience laugh] Um, but I found there are, like, steps to this process. Like, you probably exchange a look. Someone probably walks up close and sits next to you if you’re somewhere in public. Someone probably touches your thigh. Like, have you found, like, there are steps like that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes- Sometimes people will, like- Okay, maybe I’ll go into this. If you get a room, then-
KYLE GETZ
Ooh, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-then there’s, like, you’re- Like, you own that space. So people are much more likely to be like…
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Doing the, like, “Should I come in there?”
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
And you can also be like… [Mike chuckles] do the Drake thing.
KYLE GETZ
What’s the Drake thing?
MIKE JOHNSON
The memes that are Drake with his hand up, where you’re like “No.” [audience and Kyle chuckle] Uh, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, speaking of rooms, this was my favorite piece of etiquette from Wikipedia: “Customers [with] rooms may leave their … doors open to signal that they are available for sex.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm, mhm. Usually by putting their hole toward the door. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
“those who would like to be penetrated anally”…
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great! [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
…“(‘bottoms’) will sometimes lie face down on the bed with the door open, … those who prefer to penetrate others (‘tops’)”… [Mike and audience chuckle] Thanks, Wikipedia. Thanks for really breaking this down. Uh… “or to receive fellatio might lie face up.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Here it is, boys.” [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You see ass up, that’s your consent, buddies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um… [Kyle and audience chuckle] It is. Come on in! [Mike chuckles] Um, “Traveling”- This is my last one. “Traveling is often better than arriving. The anticipation of what you might find can outstrip the pleasure of actually doing it, so to speak.” Whew, that’s a lot, right? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s Grindr ghosting, right? [Kyle and audience chuckle] That’s the real life version of Grindr ghosting. Of, like, “We’re gonna chat, it’s gonna be hot,” and then, like, nothing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Have you had- I mean, have you had that version of a bathhouse experience?
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, the excitement of it being way better than the actual going?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think every context of my sex life, not just bathhouses, is, like, pretty much that. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Sorry, the topic of this episode is now Mike’s Sex Life. [Mike and audience laugh, someone cheers] Can we start at the beginning? [Kyle and Mike laugh] Someone was excited by that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, yeah, I can see, like, sometimes- I think it’s mixed. Sometimes you, like, go and then there’s no one there. You end up walking around for an hour and nothing happens and then you’re like “That- Okay.” Or you, like, go there, you, like, find one person to fuck, and then you’re like “Eh, it sounded more exciting in my head.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And other times you get gangbanged on a swing. I dunno. [Mike laughs] Hypo- Maybe. I’ve never- I’ve- [Mike laughs] I mean, not that I-
MIKE JOHNSON
Allegedly.
KYLE GETZ
Not that I wouldn’t. I’m just saying it’s- There- Okay. Um, [Mike chuckles] I will read one final thing, and this is what I found on Reddit. On Reddit, someone asks “What’s your most embarrassing moment at a gay bathhouse?” Uh, “I went into one of the gloryhole booths at the bathhouse and crouched down to look through one of the glory holes. Oooo. I felt someone playing with my asshole. They must have reached under the wall behind me. I continued to move my ass around on their finger. It felt sooo good as they rubbed my hole. Till I realized it wasn’t a finger, it was the edge of the flip flop I was wearing!” [audience and Mike loudly laugh] “It was touching my ass while I was crouched down. No one was in the booth behind me. Oooops. But it did feel good! LOL”. [Mike and audience laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] That’s what I found on the internet, about bathhouses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Man, I wish I could find that kind of love with a flip flop, you know?
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle laughs] Yeah, none of my flip flops have come onto me.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike and audience chuckle] Well, uh, very, very predictably, I’m gonna talk to everybody about the history of…
AUDIENCE
Bathhouses!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s right, gonna talk about the history of bathhouses. Uh, turns out, Kyle, they’ve been around for a very long time.
KYLE GETZ
But I mean, how are you breaking that down? Like, people have been bathing themselves in things since lakes or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, so- So it turns out that, like, most people didn’t have bathrooms in their homes, so they did their business in public. So, that idea is absolutely true. That’s been around for a long, long time.
KYLE GETZ
Doing it in public… that sound- That’s less exciting.
MIKE JOHNSON
The ancient Greeks, by the 6th century BC, had bathhouses, and, um, the Chinese, even earlier at like the 10th century. The Chinese even had a book called the “Book of Rites” that was – again 10th century – that said, quote, “people should take a hot shower every five days and wash their hair every three days.” And it was considered good manners to take a bath provided by the host before the dinner.
KYLE GETZ
“Provided by the host”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it was your job to bathe everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
And then feed them.
KYLE GETZ
That sounds like a swingers party.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
That sounds wonderful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve never been, but I just assume.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, bathing every five days, I’d say, like, during the pandemic, that’s about right.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, [audience laughs] when I’m really depressed… about day five, maybe I should shower.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the Romans then, of course, had lots and lots of baths. They built all kinds of shit and had awkward ducts and running water, so they were pretty good at it. They had what they called “thermae”, which, by the year 19 BC, the first one opened up that had a rotunda that was 25 meters across, had a bunch of small rooms. Does that sound familiar? [Kyle chuckles] Um, set in a park with an artificial river and a pool. But, by AD 300, the Baths of Diocletian covered 140,000 square meters and had 3,000 bathers a day.
KYLE GETZ
Hot!
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] Challenge accept. [Kyle laughs] But, again, most Roman homes did not have a bathing area, so you went to the public baths to do that.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, right now we’re talking about, like, for cleanliness.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Exactly right.
KYLE GETZ
Which is not- Which is kind of the opposite of what I picture bathhouses for.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Exactly right. But, so, it turns out though that the idea that, like, the nasty happens at bath houses, has also a very, very long history. So as long as there have been bathhouses, there’s been, like, gay shit happening there. [Kyle chuckles] In the minor tractate Kallah Rabbati, in chapter 10 – this is “In Judaism” – the early stages of Israel instructed on what should be the conduct of every Jew who enters a public bath. This was like the protocol. These are the steps you have to take to make sure no gay shit happens.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] It’s like- The tips that I found on the internet, this is like the old Jewish version of that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, but to make sure that the gay doesn’t happen.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, mine was the opposite. That’s right. Okay, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It said – and most of this is translated quotes, but – “Before a Jew enters a public bath, he is first required to offer a short prayer unto God, requesting that no offensive act befall him”. [Mike and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, all this is literally opposite. I pray to God that I’m gonna find some offensive act to get up to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. “He is also instructed on which clothes he is to remove before entering the bath, … with the item that puts his body at the most exposure being the last thing removed.” So you take off everything-
KYLE GETZ
Ass. …What? [Mike and audience chuckle] Right?
MIKE JOHNSON
No, just yell “ass” at me whenever you want to. It’s fine. [Kyle laughs] Uh, “When entering a public bath, a Jew is not permitted to greet his neighbor with a verbal salutation”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, this is the early, like, “Don’t look at each other in the urinal,” rule.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly right. Exactly right. Uh, “if another person should greet him audibly, he is to retort:” quote “‘This is a bath house.’” [Kyle and audience chuckle] “Once inside, he is forbidden to sit in a fetal position,” for some reason. I think, maybe, because that exposes your hole area?
KYLE GETZ
Ass. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “…nor is he permitted to rub or scratch another person’s [back].”
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckling] I did not expect you to say “back” when you- I did not expect that to be the last word of the sentence.
MIKE JOHNSON
“…but may use an extended device to scratch another[’s] … back.” So, like, you could touch as long as it’s with one of those, like, scratchy things. [Kyle and audience chuckle] Um, and then, let’s see… Also not permitted to- Like, no massage. Absolutely no touching of each other in the massage way. And all that was to, quote, “discourage developing any close bond [or] connection with another bather that might, otherwise, lead to inappropriate behavior while both men are naked.”
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, so- And then there’s a lot of records of, like, bathhouses and, like, raids and busts. Like, they gotta stop that shit from happening.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, in 1492 in Florence, there was-
KYLE GETZ
Holy shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. There was a series of cases where there were, quote, “suspect boys” in some bathhouses. They convicted 44 men for homosexual relations not involving violence in a bathhouse in Florence. So, at least back that far, that’s where we’ve been going.
KYLE GETZ
Is that, like, the earliest raid of a bathhouse?
MIKE JOHNSON
That I could find.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, 1492 in Grenada, a similar thing. Queen Isabella, who was Catholic, closed the public baths to suppress the homosexual activity that they found out was happening there. 1876 in France, there was a Parisian bathhouse that was raided. I’m not gonna say any of that because it’s all French, and that’s not my forte.
KYLE GETZ
You’re not gonna give it a swing?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, in the [pronouncing it really badly] Bains de Gymnase on the Rue du Faubourg Poissonnière. [audience chuckles and claps] Thank you! Thank you, random people that also don’t speak French. I appreciate that.
KYLE GETZ
That was gen- That was very generous of you.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] Uh, but the thing that I’ll round out the, like, sort of history portion with, is that modern bath houses, the concept of modern bathhouses in the United States, started right here in New York City. [audience cheers and claps] Congratulations, New Yorkers.
KYLE GETZ
You’ve been slutty for forever! [Mike and audience laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Dr. Charles Shepard opened the first Turkish baths in the United States at 63 Columbia Street in Brooklyn Heights, on October 3rd, 1863. One of the famous bathhouses here was the Everard Baths, or, uh, also got called the “Everhard” Baths [Kyle chuckles] by people who knew what went down there. That was the first recorded- No, sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry, that that was a gay bathhouse – a specifically gay bathhouse – at 28 West 28th Street here in New York, operated from 1888 to 1986. And I know you’re gonna talk more about why the mid-80s were a thing. Um, but uh, the thing that I love about the Everhard is that it was a church. [Mike chuckling] They turned a church into a gay bathhouse. [audience cheers and claps]
KYLE GETZ
What? [Mike and Kyle laugh] Are you sure?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Totally sure. Totally Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. That’s hilarious.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, and then, like, one of the first big gay bathhouse raids also happened here in New York. In 1903, New York police conducted the first recorded raid on a gay bathhouse, the Ariston Hotel Baths, which, 26 men were arrested and 12 brought to trial on sodomy charges. 7 men received sentences ranging from 4 to 20 years in prison. I believe that the address of the old Ariston Hotel Baths is now a Victoria’s Secret headquarters.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, cute. Okay!
MIKE JOHNSON
Which doesn’t make any sense, but…
KYLE GETZ
Alright! Eh.
MIKE JOHNSON
…it’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, that’s the- That’s some of the history of bathhouses anyway.
KYLE GETZ
The history of…
AUDIENCE
Bathhouses!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Cool. That’s fun, to make people do things.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know, yeah. We had a meeting before the show, and we said “Let’s remember to point more.” [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We usually bail on that bit, so we’re trying not to this time. Okay… are you ready for me to talk about…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about-
AUDIENCE
Bathhouses!
KYLE GETZ
…When they close down because of AIDS. [audience grumbles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Ooh. [Mike and Kyle laugh] Um, so, I got really scared of talking to New Yorkers about New York, so I’m gonna tell you about San Francisco for a little bit. [Mike and audience laugh] I was imagining being like “Here in New York…” I don’t know. You know better than I do, so- Anyway, most of what I got about what happened during AIDS is from the San Francisco AIDS Foundation article by Hank Trout. Um, and- Okay, I think this is a really challenging topic that- What are your initial thoughts on, like, should bathhouses have closed down during AIDS?
MIKE JOHNSON
Boy…
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna tell you stuff that- to see if I can-
MIKE JOHNSON
Way to throw me under the bus, Kyle. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Before learning- I will go ahead and say: before learning much information – so, without giving away how I feel now – I was kinda like “It seems difficult, but I- It seems like a good idea.”
MIKE JOHNSON
So- Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. It’s not- It’s not the same thing. I understand it is not the same thing. And, during the pandemic, we would wipe off our fucking groceries. Like, we didn’t know what was making COVID spread. We had all of these, like… theories, and ideas, and thoughts, and panic. And I think it’s really hard to look back at the HIV/AIDS crisis in the days when it was still called “GRID”, before, like, we knew anything about it, and say, like, “Oh, it’s primarily gay men. Oh, it’s primarily sexually transmitted. Oh, they’re fuckin’ a whole bunch, in the bathhouses,” like “Maybe we should shut that down.” But then, hopefully, you learn better and you learn more about what actually works and what’s ethical and you learn some lessons. I think- I don’t fault them for, like, shutting shit down because of what was happening, but the stigma that remained and the dignity that was stolen from the community as a result… I have feelings about that, more than the initial act of, like, “Let’s put a stop to it.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I can understand that. So, during this crisis in San Francisco, and in New York and other places, help advocates wanted to shut down bathhouses. So, in San Francisco in 1984-
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
-Larry Littlejohn, who was the founder of a gay organization that was called the “Society”- [Mike chuckles] What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Did he hang out with Robin Hood? Was he, like- [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Larry. Oh, Larry. Um, he founded a gay organization that was called the “Society for Individual Rights”, which, nowadays, if there was a society for individual rights, I’d be like “Oh, they fucking hate me.” Like, I would- I don’t think-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That has- Yeah. This is the Faith and Family Foundation- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Vibes. For sure. But that was a gay organization. Um, and also the owner of a sex venue. So, he was the one that introduced a municipal ballot aimed at closing down the bathhouses in response to the AIDS epidemic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Um, that actually got a lot of people talking. That stirred up the public discussion in San Francisco about what to do about bath houses. So that actually didn’t end up coming to fruition or doing any- It was the discussion that came up. Now, like… mayors, city officials had to get involved, and make a decision, and help, and decide what to do about the bathhouses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm, mhm, mhm.
KYLE GETZ
So there was a city ordinance that banned “unsafe sexual activity” at sex parlors and bath houses. So, at this time, we did know that it was sex that was- Like, they knew to look out for unsafe sexual behaviors.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They talked a- I mean, of course there’s still misconceptions around, like, oral. Like, very difficult to transmit HIV through oral sex, even today.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, don’t brush your teeth before you give a blowjob, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s just your tip of the day.
KYLE GETZ
Um, but- But they at least knew to look out for unsafe sexual behaviors. In order to look out for unsafe sexual behaviors at sex parlors and bath houses, Mayor Dianne Feinstein authorized the SFPD officers to act as spies…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
…go into the bathhouses and monitor sexual activity.
MIKE JOHNSON
Can you imagine that squad meeting, where the captain of the police department is like “Okay, y’all, we gotta crack down on these gays. Who wants to go undercover?”
KYLE GETZ
Oh, honey! Pick me, girl! Girl, girl! Girl! Over here, girl! [audience and Kyle laugh] Pick me please!
MIKE JOHNSON
Then he went home to his wife and he was like “I have to for work, I’m sorry.”
KYLE GETZ
“I have to.” [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] Um, so, it’s not just that they were spies that went to the bathhouses; they had to look for unsafe sex!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] I get- I know. I do too. [audience and Mike laugh] Yeah. That’s- So, um, then stuff went to courts. …I don’t- Yeah. That’s kind of what- I didn’t really understand exactly what happened. But, finally, stuff went to courts. They tried to close stuff. They were like “I wouldn’t…” They didn’t want it to close. Uh, so a judge’s rule is what effectively banned bathhouses. So that’s one of the weird parts, is that a judge made this decision, put an injunction that said that they were allowed to close down bathhouses indirectly. They weren’t- It wasn’t banning bathhouses, it was prohibiting places with private rooms with locking doors.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Like my house? [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
No one could have a house! [Mike and Kyle chuckle] You had to- You couldn’t own houses back in the 80s.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It was wild. No. Like, sex establishments, that, like, had private locking rooms. And they added a requirement to continue monitoring them for- You know, to look for unsafe sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] And, that was to remain in effect until the, uh… Department of Public Health – I wrote the initials – Department of Public Health directors, quote, “declare[d] the AIDS epidemic to be terminated.” …Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Just “It’s done now!”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That was what we were waiting for, I guess.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
So, actually, that injunction remained into- in effect until 2021. So, I thought, like, they would close things down temporarily then things started opening back up, but no, that remained in effect until just recently when they were like “This doesn’t make sense anymore.”
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s wild.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. So, during the 90s, they did start to open up more of these places, but they avoided some of the rules. Like, they didn’t have private rooms with locking doors on some of the places that opened back up, in order to get around- Like, they found ways to get around these issues and still have bathhouses. But yeah, it was finally rescinded in 2021. Um, like I said, New York City had something similar in 1985, where the bathhouses started getting locked down. And so, as I was reading-
MIKE JOHNSON
Mayor Ed Koch: a real son of a bitch.
KYLE GETZ
We… don’t like him?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
No. [Mike and audience laugh] Okay, great. I pay attention to politics. …Every time there was an argument- Because I thought- I was like “I know that gay people didn’t like this and were up in arms about it,” but I was like “I kind of think it was a good thing.” So, every time someone made an argument against closing down the bathhouses, I wrote those down, and I want to talk you through some of those.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, instead of closing, some people suggested that they leave them open and use these spaces to disseminate information, to spread awareness, educate people. This is a place where people were going and it was a gathering place for people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So it would make sense that this would be a place to spread information. So activist Cleve Jones said, quote, “Personally, I was very ambivalent, torn on the issue,” “…I wish we had kept them open to educate and test patrons, especially for closeted men going to baths and then back to their wives.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which, that’s true. Like, how do you-
MIKE JOHNSON
Just like those cops, right? [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Just like those cops. They were there just- [Kyle chuckles] just to monitor.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know that there were lots of bathhouses that, like, they would do vote registration- voter registration pushes, like, to try to keep the political power of gay men up, which, really, what other venue is there for that, except for maybe gay bars?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It makes sense for some of these venues to be some of the places where gay men gather, that you can spread out information awareness, do testing, all that kind of thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Vaccination. A lot of monkeypox vaccinations happened in bathhouses too.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Um, another argument is that these places – I think, especially back in these times – were much more than just anonymous sex. Some of them had full gym equipment, swimming pools, of course steam rooms and saunas. Some had living room-like settings that offered sodas and snacks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [Mike chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You said before-
MIKE JOHNSON
Back to the gym though, the thing that’s interesting about, like, the gym equipment at a bathhouse is there’s this thought of, like, there’s probably some bro who, like, this is his gym.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, this is where he comes to work out every day. I think that’s really weird.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Hot. You mean “hot”?
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike and audience laugh] Great. …Okay, sure.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, it’s like- Especially- I mean, especially in those times, to find a place that you know you’re a little bit safer place, you know you’re gonna be accepted, you’re not gonna get attacked by the police… Like, to have a safer place like that, it might make sense that this was a gathering place.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Yeah. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, activist Harry Breaux.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Hairy bro”? [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t realize that, because it’s spelled like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, it’s “Harry Breaux”! B-R-E-A-U-X. [Mike and audience laugh] French, everybody! [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t say that out loud to myself [Kyle chuckles] until just now. Anyway, he was an activist and very important to these times. Um, uh, he said, quote, “The restaurant or snack bar and the living room areas were alive with interesting conversations about all sorts of ordinary things. These bathhouses were a place for networking before cell phones.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So it really was more than- I mean, very sex-forward place, but there was more to do. And I’ve been to bath houses that, like, have, like, a computer room and have a, like, little- And I was, like, always like “Why?” but now I know, like, now, that people sometimes might gather there, or hang out and talk, or whatever. Harry Breaux also says [Mike and audience chuckle] “Closing”-
MIKE JOHNSON
His name is Harry Breaux! Like- [Mike and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, “Closing the baths in 1984 was like shutting off the internet today. Our lines of communication in the war on AIDS were severed here in this city.” Other reasons, this is one- Well, actually, okay. So, the decision to shut down bathhouses is in the context of people not giving a shit or doing anything else. So it’s- It’s one of those things that, in retrospect, when I’m looking back on, it’s like “Oh, that’s an interesting conversation about what should have happened.” It’s not that everyone was following sound medical advice, following- like, trying to do the best- Like, no one was doing anything, so it was one of these political kind of wins that could make people feel like they were doing a thing without having to invest, educate, learn, do anything else.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know who was doing a shitload?
KYLE GETZ
Who?
MIKE JOHNSON
Dr. Anthony Fauci?
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What’d he do?
MIKE JOHNSON
He worked on HIV/AIDS and, like, actually understanding the thing and, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Which is maybe one of the reasons that people on the right didn’t want to believe him about COVID, because they were like-
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. Oh, fuck them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I mean… for a lot of reasons. But, given that context, it also made – when they did this, and nothing else – it made gay people feel like they were just trying to criminalize gay behavior, trying to criminalize gay sex, and it was government intruding into their private lives.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, an argument I saw a lot is that HIV is transmitted through behavior, not location. So, people will continue to have unsafe sex… unless- I mean, that’s just something that’s gonna happen no matter what.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. See our Condoms episode last week, everybody. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Look, it’s a good idea to wear a condom. I believe that. [audience and Mike laugh] …That’s not what my app says though. [Kyle, Mike, and audience chuckle] Umm, so people are gonna keep having unsafe sex. Even if you close down the bathhouses, they’re going to have sex elsewhere. So this didn’t actually solve a lot of the problems, this wasn’t the big fix that I think the officials were pretending that it was.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
And another thing just said that they should have trusted the gay men at the baths have enough information and self-esteem to take care of it themselves.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Have you met gay men?
KYLE GETZ
I’m… responsible? [Mike laughs] That’s not true. I couldn’t say that. But I think- I think- I do like the idea of educating people and helping them understand what the decision is, and then letting them decide for themself what to do with that information.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, again, I also know that it’s not the same thing. I can’t connect it to anything other than something like monkeypox, like, where we were educating people, telling them what to do, and then let people make- Like, I then made my own decision. I actually, like, did not hook up with anyone during that time, just because I knew that was risky, and got a vaccination as soon as I found them and it became available.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it was just- Like, I just need to know the information.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
What’s going on, and what do I need to do?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, through all that, I was convinced that this was- I think there’s also something to, like, because I wasn’t there listening to what did gay activists say and think at the time, and trusting that- trusting those people that made those decisions.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, all of that swayed my mind, made me believe that that was the right thing to do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh.
KYLE GETZ
Sorry, it’s the wrong thing to do.
MIKE JOHNSON
The wrong thing to do.
KYLE GETZ
Don’t shut down the bathhouses. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Are you convinced?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay! [audience and Mike laugh] I needed you to be, for closure, so I appreciate that answer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Yes. Yes, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. That’s so great, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
You have changed my mind.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, it’s so good we do this podcast together. [Mike chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, I- What?
KYLE GETZ
No?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Yes.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-
KYLE GETZ
Did I have dick face? [Kyle and Mike chuckle] Did I have resting Kyle face?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
No more than usual. [Kyle laughs] Okay. I’m gonna talk to everybody about…
AUDIENCE
Bathhouses!
MIKE JOHNSON
…and the Catholic Church. [Mike chuckles] [audience goes like “eugh”] So I have a couple of stories and, uh, I think a few of them I’m gonna cover in the Patreon segment. So, you can listen for that next week. I’m just gonna focus on just the one here. And, uh, this is slightly fictionalized, but in my head this is how it went down.
KYLE GETZ
Huh! Okay. Okay, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. So, in Ireland at a bathhouse called the “Incognito”-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-a man had a cup of coffee, went into the bath house, and was watching porn.
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
He was beating the bishop… [Kyle chuckles] Jerking off. He was jerking off.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, uh… and had a heart attack. [Kyle and audience gasp] Fell over, landed on the floor of the bathhouse, dick in hand.
KYLE GETZ
Oh no.
MIKE JOHNSON
A medical student ran up and started attempting CPR.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’s- Wow, convenient. Is there a doctor? The pager, “Is there a doctor here?”
MIKE JOHNSON
To which the medical student then said “Oh my God, this is my priest.” [audience reacts with surprise]
KYLE GETZ
This is the setup to a joke. This isn’t- This is a fake story that you’re telling me.
MIKE JOHNSON
…And then said “He’s dying. I’m not going to be able to save him.” Another priest came out of a room [Kyle gasps] to give that priest last rites.
KYLE GETZ
What?! [Mike chuckles] That was what they were focused on!?
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckling] Yeah. Right.
KYLE GETZ
He’s dying!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, that’s what priests do. They show up to, like, people’s-
KYLE GETZ
He’s dying! I guess they care about God.
MIKE JOHNSON
And another priest came out-
KYLE GETZ
What?!
MIKE JOHNSON
-and offered to tag team. Like, “Do you need help with this last rites thing? We can, like, do it together.”
KYLE GETZ
Are there any more priests that you’re gonna tell me about? You have to tell me now if there are any more.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- That’s it for-
KYLE GETZ
17 more priests came out of a room.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, no.
KYLE GETZ
No. Okay, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, the guy’s name was Liam Cosgrave, he was 68 years old, and he died. He died at that club.
KYLE GETZ
Aww.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that started this whole scandal. So, the owner of the Incognito Sauna said that up to 20 priests were regular patrons and that was not unusual for there to be three there at a time.
KYLE GETZ
…Was this a gay-affirming Church? [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s the Catholic Church, Kyle. [audience chuckles] No. No, it is not.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, it is not.
KYLE GETZ
Well, I was trying.
MIKE JOHNSON
So- And the owner of the club spoke at length about this in the news and he said, quote, “We would not normally give out this information [about customers]…” because there is a thing, “…but as a gay community we rebel against the Catholic church, which refuses to recognize us.” So the owner specifically, like, aired their dirty laundry because he’s like “Fuck you, Catholic Church.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like “This is what’s happening.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. This is how I feel about outing gay politicians. Like, don’t out gay people. Like, it’s never okay for you to out someone, people come out on their own time, blah, blah, blah… unless they’re a homophobic politician.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. If it’s our senator then go for it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, exactly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Exactly. Lindsey. Um- [Audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Lady G. “Lady G” is what we call her.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s right. That’s right. Uh, foul play was not suspected. They investigated and then, like, nothing really happened. But there was definitely a big-
KYLE GETZ
He just died from porn?!
MIKE JOHNSON
He died from porn. He was jerking off, had a heart attack, and died.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. If there’s one thing for you all to leave with tonight: don’t watch porn. [Mike and audience laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
And don’t be Catholic, I think is the-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, sorry. Sorry, don’t be Catholic. That’s a better one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, anyway, yeah, I’ll tell the other stories on Patreon. There’s a couple of other interesting things that touch up against the Catholic Church.
KYLE GETZ
How touch- How much? [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
But yeah, we gotta- We gotta rush through this, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
We do?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
No we don’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re gonna do gayta! You have numbers.
KYLE GETZ
I have numbers. I have some numbers. And what I found was that, in looking for gayta, all of them were about HIV transmission risk at bathhouses. That was the only research study that’s done. So it’s one of those things where that is an important study to do, it’s an important thing to recognize, and also I feel like, so often – it’s not 100, but so much – a really high percentage of our lives, in research, is boiled down to HIV, and there’s a lot more that exists in gay life that needs to be studied and measured in gay life.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
So I didn’t want to just pick one of these studies that talked about HIV risk at bathhouses. Instead, I wanted to- I picked a study that talked about what the best way to get data from gay men is. Oftentimes, people will- researchers will go to bathhouses, or they’ll go to gay bars, or they’ll go online, and find gay men in order to study them, to ask them questions, to get data: the data that I talk about on the show. And the- I’m gonna read from the study. “Most studies that report on venue-associated HIV risk have recruited men from a single venue, be it a bathhouse, bar/club, or Internet website, with very little cross-venue research using identical measures of HIV-associated risk.”
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m stuck on the phrase “recruited men”, and I’m wondering if they have any tips. [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. Pretend to be a researcher and give them a survey, and tell them it’s not anonymous. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m a little bit a voyeur, which we’ve talked about and, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-just give me a clipboard and let me watch. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, this is a horrible idea, I’m so excited for you. Um, this is a study called “HIV Risk and Substance Use in Men Who Have Sex with Men Surveyed in Bathhouses, Bars/Clubs, and on Craigslist.com: Venue of Recruitment Matters”. [TN: “HIV Risk and Substance Use in Men Who Have Sex with Men Surveyed in Bathhouses, Bars/Clubs, and on Craigslist.org: Venue of Recruitment Matters”] This appeared in AIDS and Behavior, which is a peer reviewed journal, in 2012. By Christian Grov, a PhD professor at CUNY. Boy, there are several ways to fuck up that name. [Kyle chuckles] Christian Grov, by the way, Dr. Christian Grove: very attractive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Great.
KYLE GETZ
That shouldn’t matter.
MIKE JOHNSON
Give him a clipboard. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I think he had a clipboard! I think he did this! I think he did the clipboard.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
But no, he has really great- I looked at some of his other research and watch videos of him talking about helping reduce, like, meth use, and safer sex, and all this good stuff. So he- I really liked him and what he did. And it made sense that he was trying to fight against the idea that you just find gay men at one place and that’s how all of us act.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, what I’m gonna tell you is, they had information from each of these three venues: bars, Craigslist, and bathhouses. So I’m gonna tell you some of the differences between gay men from each of these venues.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have a guess which one is most dangerous.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not the bathhouse. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Okay, tell me about your, like, stereotypes of each of these locations. Who’s the gay at each of these different locations?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, uh-
KYLE GETZ
And he did this research right here in New York, so it is New York bars and clubs, New York bathhouses. I wish they- I was gonna bring you- I wish I could bring you the ones that he was at so I could tell you where to go, but I can’t. You’ll have to tell me later.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bars are where you go to get, like, a drink and a blow job, and- [Kyle chuckles] -uh, and the bathhouses are where you go to fuck – maybe you’re drunk, or not, who knows? – and Craigslist is where you go to die. [audience laughs]
KYLE GETZ
…He didn’t follow up to ask if they lived, in the Craigslist study [Mike and audience chuckle] so, I guess… who knows? Okay, so that makes sense that that’s the assumption. I think bathhouses get the stereotype that, like, that’s where people are having dirty raunchy sex, you’re drinking and doing drugs there or have done that beforehand, that’s where the most risk is. I think there are a lot of stereotypes that- around that. Do you agree? Does that- Is that kind of your stereotype of bathhouses?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s all true.
KYLE GETZ
Okay- Wel- N- Eh. Eh! [Mike laughs] Not 100%. Um, so, bars and clubs, they were the most likely to be – some of this made sense – the youngest, they were the most likely to be single, they were the most likely to know their HIV status.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
Know your status, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Know your status. They were also the most likely to report high scores in this scale that is called the “Attachment to the Gay/Bisexual Community Scale”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Which, I’m gonna have you, I think, later, take the Gay and Bi Community… uh, Scale. That shows you how to attach- like, your level of attachment to the gay and bisexual community.
MIKE JOHNSON
If I fail do I get kicked out? Do I have to go back to women. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes, you do. You absolutely do. Um, they were also the – this makes sense – reported the most alcohol use. They’re at a bar. They were also the mo- [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] Thank you to The Spot for hosting us tonight. [Mike and audience chuckle] It’s been wonderful. Um, they were the most likely to report group sex while drunk or high on drugs. They were also the most likely to have recently used cocaine.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
It wasn’t the bathhouses that reported this, which, that was a very big surprise to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, everybody, don’t pay attention to this.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think of New York as a cocaine town.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle and audience chuckle] Oh, my God. Is that why they’re always awake?
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] The city that never sleeps.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Because of, like, line after line, right? Like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh. I mean, Seattle has been a cocaine town for me sometimes. [Kyle and audience chuckle] But, I mean, I don’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
Seattle’s a weed town.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. Yeah, that’s very true. Okay, sure. Yes. I’ll go ahead and say: New Yorkers fuckin’ love cocaine.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [audience and Mike laugh]
KYLE GETZ
And they love- They love doin’ it at bars and clubs… but less than bathhouses? That’s the thing that, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s surprising.
KYLE GETZ
So, that part of it was surprising. Uh, Craigslist: they were the least likely to identify as gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That- Okay.
KYLE GETZ
That matches up.
MIKE JOHNSON
That checks out, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
This also is ba- This was done in 2012, when-
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] Craigslist and the parking lot of Kmart. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
My favorite gay club is the parking lot at Kmart. Um, this was in 2012, back when you could do personals. Like, they had personals on Craigslist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They shut that down.
MIKE JOHNSON
RIP.
KYLE GETZ
Um- Oh my god, I used to- When I was in college… Oh… [audience chuckles] That’s all I had to say about it. [Kyle chuckles] [audience laughs] I just- Those were the days. Okay, um, they also reported the lowest score in attachment to the gay and bi community.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, most likely to report being in a current relationship with a female partner.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Maybe they were bi and open.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. I’m not judging, I’m just reading you the data.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They were the most like- No, no, no, they were the least likely to report anal sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Craigslist.
KYLE GETZ
Craigslist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I kind of thought that, like, online you were like “No. Like, do me,” you know? You’re like “Here’s what I want, and I’m gonna put it on the internet, and I want to-”
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s really- That surprises me for the same reasons but, like, huh. I mean, Craigslist’s heyday was pre-Grindr, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, that was, you know.
KYLE GETZ
Back in the days of gay.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
So the fact that that’s not where the anal was happening is… yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s not where the anal was- [Mike chuckles] Where’s the anal? Um, they did report the greatest proportion of anal sex acts that were unprotected.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Okay. Okay, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So they were least likely to report sex – anal sex – but when they did it had the highest rate of unprotected anal sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, again, I would have expected that to be the bathhouses. That wasn’t the case.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm. Hm.
KYLE GETZ
Um, bathhouses-
MIKE JOHNSON
Probably because bathhouses give away condoms. It’s like there’s always buckets of condoms floating around.
KYLE GETZ
Some of them, like, have requirements these days like every room has to have condoms, every- …and you have to have spies that monitor the bathhouses. [audience and Mike chuckle] Where do you sign- I wonder if that’s a job? [audience and Mike chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ll get my clipboard, and you- [Kyle and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
I’ll be a spy in the bathhouse! Um, bathhouses were most likely to say that they never – the men that went there were most likely to say – that they never discussed their HIV status with their sex partner.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm.
KYLE GETZ
They were the most likely to say that they “strongly agree” it is difficult to discuss HIV with sex partners.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So that part matched up with my assumptions. It’s easier, when you’re on Craigslist or on the apps, to just put your status up front or to ask someone and have that be kind of one of the check ins you do along the way. It’s a little bit more difficult in bathhouses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm, mhm, mhm.
KYLE GETZ
The bathhouse patrons were the most likely to be HIV-positive. And, while they reported the highest number of recent sex partners, that- My sentence ended there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I went up because I thought I had more, and I didn’t. [Mike laughs] Uh, they were they reported- They reported the highest number of recent sex partners. But remember, Craigslist is the highest percentage of unprotected sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They just have a lot of unprotected- or, a lot of sex. Just, a higher percentage of it was protected sex. So some of those condoms came in handy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
The median, in case you’re curious, in the last three months the median was 7 sex partners.
MIKE JOHNSON
7 sex partners?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. In the last three months. 2 a month with one month. That was good.
MIKE JOHNSON
I need to catch up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Starting tonight?
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna be at the 9th Avenue Saloon after this, everybody, if you wanna- [Mike and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
So the- At the end of this research, what he said- What Doctor – what was his name? – Grov said is that researchers need to go to multiple venues when they survey a gay men. They can’t just go to one venue and assume were all the same. And, be aware of the differences at each venues and, in your reporting of the data, break out by venue so we can see how different people- Regardless of what you’re studying, break out so we can see by venue what the differences are. And, in HIV prevention, we need to tailor messages to each venue based on the characteristics of that venue. It’s not a one-size-fits-all kind of approach.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the gayta.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
I love math.
KYLE GETZ
Sure you do. [Mike chuckles] I- Yeah. You do.
MIKE JOHNSON
I do!
KYLE GETZ
I- Yeah. I-
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, we’re gonna take a break pretty soon, but before we do we’re gonna play a little game.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s gonna be…
AUDIENCE
Bathhouses!
MIKE JOHNSON
…Or No.
KYLE GETZ
“Bathhouses or No”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, here’s the thing: I’m gonna say a thing, Kyle is gonna guess if it is a bathhouse or not, and I’m gonna give y’all a “Thumbs up,” if it’s a bathhouse. For the audio, you gotta say “Bathhouse,” and then if I say “Thumbs down,” you’re gonna say “No.” Okay?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s practice it once.
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
AUDIENCE
No!
MIKE JOHNSON
Perfect. Y’all are-
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is an above average crowd, Kyle. [Kyle laughs]
KYLE GETZ
There’s still some show left, Mike. We’ll see.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, first, the Richmond Street Health Emporium.
KYLE GETZ
“Health Empor-”? N- No.
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a bathhouse. It was in Toronto. It was one of the bathhouses that got raided as part of Operation Soap when they went through [audience chuckles] and raided Canadian bathhouses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, let’s see…
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about Man’s Country?
AUDIENCE MEMBER.
Oh God. No.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] I feel like I’m on The Price Is Right. [audience and Mike laugh] Um, okay, I’ll go with the audience’s vote. I’ll say “No.”
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
MIKE JOHNSON
That is a bathhouse. There wasn’t-
KYLE GETZ
Fuck you all, you’re not helping! [Mike laughs] Wine, help me out.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was a bathhouse in Chicago. Uh, how about-
KYLE GETZ
“Man Country”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Man Coun- “Man’s” Country.
KYLE GETZ
Man’s Country.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Man’s Country”, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Cool. Okay. That’s fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, how about Boilermaker?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, I’m gonna say “Yes.” That is a bathhouse.
AUDIENCE
No!
MIKE JOHNSON
No, that’s a beer and a shot, Kyle. Get with the program. [audience and Mike laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Ew. I mean, ew, right? I could not find a bathhouse called “Boilermaker.” I think it would be a fantastic name for a bathhouse.
KYLE GETZ
Yes! Or a steak restaurant.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? [Mike and audience chuckle] Uh, how about- How about The KKK? [audience goes like “ohoho”]
KYLE GETZ
…Now wait a second, everybody! [audience and Mike laugh] No. We’ll go easy: no.
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
MIKE JOHNSON
That is the-
KYLE GETZ
What the fuck?!
MIKE JOHNSON
That is. Ken’s Karate Klub in Sydney, Australia. [audience chuckles] It is a bathhouse. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Ken… [Mike and audience chuckle] Ken, what are we doing? [Mike chuckles] What are we doing, Ken? That’s… That’s kind of funny. [Kyle chuckles] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, how about Knob Creek?
KYLE GETZ
I was- That seems like “Yes,” but I’ve been getting them wrong so I’m gonna say “No.”
AUDIENCE
No!
KYLE GETZ
You got one right. That’s a brand of whiskey. [Mike chuckles]
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, you made me drink that on our Whiskey episode.
MIKE JOHNSON
I did! Yes, I did. What did you think?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t remember.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think you hated that one less than most.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, how about Corpus Cavernosum?
KYLE GETZ
No.
AUDIENCE
No!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s correct. That’s a part of the penis.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, really?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the part that fills up with blood. That’s your corpus cavernosum. Yeah.
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Eww.
KYLE GETZ
What part is that?
MIKE JOHNSON
The boner part, Kyle. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
That’s just the penis though. [Kyle chuckles] There’s other parts to it?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s the part of the chamber that fills up with blood, is the corpus caverno- Okay, any- [Audience member says something] [Kyle and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Boners are less hot now. I didn’t know that could happen.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about the BKLYN House Hotel?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. I’m gonna say “Yes.”
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a bathhouse in Manchester, in the United Kingdom. Uh, how about Camp Damascus?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, yeah. I’ll go “Yes.”
AUDIENCE
No!
MIKE JOHNSON
Nope, that’s a book by Chuck Tingle. [Mike and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
I love that guy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, followed up by the sequel Pounded in the Butt by Camp Damascus. [Kyle, Mike, and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Of course.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, how about Barefoot Boy?
KYLE GETZ
Ah, I’m gonna go “No.”
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a bath house in Sydney, Australia, who now has two for two on bad names [Kyle and Mike chuckle] for bathhouses.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Do you go barefoot?
MIKE JOHNSON
At a bath house?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
No!
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely not.
KYLE GETZ
I was just asking.
MIKE JOHNSON
I take my own flip flops.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t- I mean, you do know what’s happened.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I just- I guess it’s probably the place to be though. I worry about, like, athlete’s foot, and foot rot, and, like, and then go, like, put your dick in something. Like, maybe that’s the wrong thing to be worried about. [Mike and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I mean, like, don’t do foot stuff there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Uh, and how about the Continental Baths?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I’m gonna say “Yes.” That sounds like one.
AUDIENCE
Bathhouse!
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Continental Baths is a notorious New York City bathhouse, and that’s where Bette Midler and Barry Manilow hung out.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, when she did all her bathhouse shows?
MIKE JOHNSON
She did a bunch of bathhouse shows and that was where, the Continental Baths. Apparently Barry Manilow, when he would go, also would just wear a towel.
KYLE GETZ
What?!
MIKE JOHNSON
So when he married my fraternity brother, I think we all knew already.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Gay.
KYLE GETZ
A gay boy.
MIKE JOHNSON
So gay. But, like, his persona was not that. Like, he just- When he and Garry got married a couple of years ago it was like front page of People Magazine, “Did you know Barry Manilow was gay?” Yeah, Bette Midler did. [Kyle and audience chuckle] Uh, anyw- Where’s that beautiful muscley bartender with the shots for the break? Because that- He keeps calling me “babe” and it’s like… oh, girl. [audience laughs, Kyle chuckles] Anyway, um, yeah, we’re gonna- Did we do it? What’s the conclusion here, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Okay, so, what kind of- I feel like a lot- When researching this, I feel like it broke a lot of the stereotypes that I had that it was just about anonymous sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, for example, I think that, especially in other times or even today, it’s not just about sex. There’s far more that happens there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Um, I think that our assumption that it is the riskiest place to go is- There are other- Each venue, like I talked about, has different risks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I think there’s that. I also think we didn’t- Maybe it was just based on audience participation, that it’s like… not every single gay man is doing this all the time every night.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I think that’s something we didn’t really touch on too much, is that… I don’t think this is a part of our culture, and our history, and our lives, but it’s not everything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I think that’s some people’s assumption, is that we’re just fucking all the time in a bathhouse.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yeah, no, I agree. I absolutely agree.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, y’all agree? [audience quietly woos and claps]
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Awesome.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. You kind of had to because we have the mic, so… [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] you don’t have another option.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, we’re gonna- We’re gonna take a break and we’re gonna do shots. Uh, be thinking about your Gayest & Straightest and whether you want to participate or not and walk away with some merch. Um…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You wanna take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break. [audience claps]
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Cheers. [glasses clink]
MIKE JOHNSON [back from break]
How are you doing, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
I’m doing good.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you- Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike laughing] We’re back. [audience woos and claps a little] See, it’s not a long break. We can’t, like, you know. What are we, union? [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Um, we’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest and your Gayest & Straightest but, first… We are going to be- Thank you for being here. That’s fucking fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [audience cheers and claps]
MIKE JOHNSON
This is the first stop of a 6-city tour. We are going to be in Seattle next, for Pride weekend. That’s Friday the 23rd at the Hula Hula.
KYLE GETZ
Then we’re gonna be in Chicago on July 29th, San Francisco on August 13th, LA on September 10th, and Houston on October 15th.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah. If you want tickets or more information, go to gayishpodcast.com/live. Speaking of which, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We are on all social medias @gayishpodcast, and we have a Facebook group, and a Discord, and Spaces. So go find that information out at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Uh…
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayest & Straightest?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Why not?
MIKE JOHNSON
You want me to start?
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. So, the gayest thing about me this week was: on the- I told you I was gonna tell you this story. We flew into Newark yesterday on Alaska Airlines and, at least in the section that I was sitting, the gayest flight attendant in the history of flight attendants was my flight attendant. His name was [censor beep] and I don’t know how he clocked me, but he definitely knew that I was gay because all of a sudden he’s telling me about, like, where all the cute boys are sitting. He’s like- He said “I bet I’m old enough to be your father. How old are you?” And I said-
KYLE GETZ
That’s- Wow, that’s a swing! That’s a real swing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You should use that on the guys you hit on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I know, right? [audience and Mike laugh] We’re gonna be at the 9th Avenue Saloon. [Kyle and audience chuckles] Uh, he said “How old are you?” I said “44.” He said “You know, I told the boys in the back I’m not your daddy. And, just so you know, there’s no sugar in this daddy.” [Mike laughs, audience members groan] It’s like, why is your- These are passengers at your workplace! What are you doing?
KYLE GETZ
There’s no- He doesn’t cum? What does that mean? [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
He doesn’t have any money, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! Oh. Oh. I thought he doesn’t cum anything anymore. I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike and audience laugh] How do you think aging works? Like-
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, he’s the one that’s seven-
MIKE JOHNSON
You turn 60 and spider webs come out and, like-? [Mike and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. I- Whenever someone cums in me I say “Give me the sugar.” I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike laughs] Uh, and then the straightest thing about me this week: I was at a bar last weekend after we recorded the show and, uh, this woman walked over to me and she goes “A couple of my girlfriends think you’re very attractive. Would you like to come say ‘Hi’?” [audience chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
What did you say?
MIKE JOHNSON
I said “I am super gay.” [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh] “So, no.” And she was like “Alright!”
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
MIKE JOHNSON
And she fucked off, so that’s great. [Kyle chuckles] But yeah, I- Like, I got hit on by a herd of women, apparently, so.
KYLE GETZ
Aw. That’s flattering.
KYLE GETZ
It was very flattering and, uh, you know, validating.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I love that.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about you? What’s your Gayest & Straightest?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, my straightest is the Old Spice hair stuff that I use.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Because it’s Old Spice flavored?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, because anything Old Spice just feels like a straight dude. Like, it feels, like, less douchey Axe body spray.
MIKE JOHNSON
Could be, like, after Scary, and Sporty, and Posh. [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] Old Spice.
KYLE GETZ
There’s just Daddy Spice: [Mike laughs] one gay dude that’s part of it. Um, my gayest is I used teeth whitening strips, which could, on its own, be my gayest, but then- It’s like the day after that then they start to feel, like, really sensitive. So, to drink water, I just basically deep throated my water bottle. [Mike laughs] Didn’t want to touch my sensitive teeth.
MIKE JOHNSON
I saw Cornbread do that in Boise [Mike and Kyle laugh] with a Corona.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, that’s impressive.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was very impressive, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
After the show? Gonna give it a shot?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, sure.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
The 9th Avenue Saloon. [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Does anyone want to share their Gayest & Straightest? If so, raise your hand. Okay, yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right up front. Here we go.
KYLE GETZ
Come on up onto the stage.
MIKE JOHNSON
Please use the microphone.
JOHN CRAWLEY
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah,
JOHN CRAWLEY
Gayest thing about me happened today. This afternoon, I went to the New York Historical Society Museum and checked out their, uh- What was it?
AUDIENCE MEMBER
Don’t ask me. [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh]
JOHN CRAWLEY
They had an exhibit on J. C. Leyerdecker– Leyendecker? – who’s like the gay Norman Rockwell of the 1920s and 30s.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, great.
JOHN CRAWLEY
He drew these pictures of pretty men looking at each other for, like, Collar ads and things. Ivory Soap and stuff like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m sure AI will steal that any day now. [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle]
JOHN CRAWLEY
And then I went upstairs to their third floor and checked out their collection of Tiffany lamps.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah.
JOHN CRAWLEY
And then I went down to the gift shop and I bought my copy of Gay New York. It better be good, Mike.
KYLE GETZ
Oooh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah. That book is amazing.
JOHN CRAWLEY
Cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOHN CRAWLEY
The straightest thing about me this week is: yesterday, I ventured out into the backwoods of northern New Jersey to visit the Boy Scout camp where the original Friday the 13th was filmed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oohh.
JOHN CRAWLEY
And I hung out with a bunch of fanboys who looked like they crawled out of mom and dad’s basement. [Mike, Kyle, and audience chuckle] [audience applauds]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you. Uh, wait, before you go, before you go… can we- Yeah. There’s mugs, there’s also a limited number of T-shirts and some big stickers over there. Um, yeah, who wants to- Just because I made eye contact. Yeah. [Mike chuckles] [audience applauds] Uh, also- Also, tell us your name and where you’re from, please.
JOHN CRAWLEY
John Crawley.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah! Thanks-
JOHN CRAWLEY
Super Gap Bridger.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Thanks, John.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo! [audience applauds, someone says “Yass!”]
KEN WALKER
Hi, I’m Ken Walker. I’m from Massachusetts.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Excellent. Welcome.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Welcome!
KEN WALKER
So, the straightest thing for me is that I installed the water heater in my home – water filter, not water heater – water filter in my home all by myself. Didn’t actually need any help.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
KEN WALKER
So- I’ve never done that before.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think just knowing what that is is your straightest, [Kyle and audience chuckle] much less actually installing it, but okay. [Mike laughs]
KEN WALKER
And the gayest thing is: at my 40th birthday last weekend, I-
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy birthday!
KEN WALKER
Thank you. [audience applauds] …My boyfriend crowned me in front of my whole family, gave me an actual crown. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. I thought that maybe that was, like, something you would do at a bathhouse but-
KEN WALKER
[audience laughs] No.
MIKE JOHNSON
-like, you mean an actual crown. [Mike chuckles] Okay.
KEN WALKER
…In the presence of my ex-wife and my ex-girlfriend. [Mike and Kyle laugh, audience applauds]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Ken. Thanks, man. Well, let’s- Sure.
VARIOUS AUDIENCE MEMBERS
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. [audience laughs] You’ll do. I don’t know. [Mike laughs]
KEVIN
Hi.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hi!
KEVIN
People call me Kevin.
MIKE JOHNSON
But what is your- People call you that, but what is your name? [Mike and audience chuckle]
KEVIN
That’s my name. You said “Sure,” and I was, like, trying to correct that my name is not “Sure”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Got it, got it. Okay. [Mike chuckles]
KEVIN
Also known as, uh, “Kevin loves Danny Carrillo” a couple weeks ago.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ohhh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KEVIN
So, my straightest is building – installing – like, a garage door system at my house using drills and, like, stud finders, and a whole bunch of stuff that- I was impressed with myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nice.
KEVIN
Um, my gayest this week is coming to New York for y’all.
KYLE GETZ
Aww! [audience awws]
KEVIN
Um, and introducing my husband to my ex who is a good friend of mine and who thinks that Mike is a super perfect daddy for him.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. [audience applauds]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sean, sure, yeah. [audience laughs] I know you.
SEAN
Hello!
MIKE JOHNSON
Hi!
KYLE GETZ
Hi.
SEAN
I am Sean. I am from here, albeit across the river, Hoboken. And um, I’m also the Minecraft server admin extraordinaire. That is a thing that exists, it’s on the Discord.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Mike chuckles] Yeah.
SEAN
Uh, my gayest this week is: my boyfriend – who is over there – and I just went to Maine to his cabin and, like, wined and dined. And I feel like doing that when you’re in your 20s… [Mike laughs] is pretty gay. [Kyle chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yep.
SEAN
Um, and our straightest is: we almost did not make it here tonight, because we had to do car maintenance on the drive down. [Kyle gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Ohhh.
KYLE GETZ
That sounds horrible. Did it- Did you fix it?
SEAN
No, but we managed to not explode.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [Mike and audience chuckle] [audience applauds]
MIKE JOHNSON
He took a T-shirt, so- We have another mug. Yeah! …A “Have A Nice Gay” shirt? That’s fucking fantastic. [a couple audience members woo]
JASON
Hello, my name is Jason. I’m from Brooklyn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hi, Jason from Brooklyn. [a couple audience members clap and cheer]
JASON
Straightest thing was: watching the PGA… [Mike, Kyle, and audience laugh] 20 minutes before I came here and drinking a beer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JASON
And the gayest is: I bought this merch on the website.
MIKE JOHNSON
Love it.
JASON
…and I want you both sign it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay!
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Sure! [audience applauds and cheers] [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Where do you want me to sign it?
JASON
Anywhere.
KYLE GETZ
Anywhere. We’ll go nipple. [audience chuckling, a woo, and a “Yeah!”]
MIKE JOHNSON
…This is so surreal, everybody. [audience and Kyle laugh]
JASON
I love it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, other nipple! [audience chuckles then applauds]
JASON
Thank you. See you in Seattle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! Thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow!
KYLE GETZ
Thanks for coming.
MIKE JOHNSON
And in Seattle. I didn’t even think that- Like, first of all, I was pretty sure that, of our 10s of listeners, all of them are here today. [audience and Kyle chuckle] Like, this is the whole audience.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, you’re it.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, that people would come to more than one show… that’s blowing my mind.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um… We have 8 minutes.
KYLE GETZ
Do you want to do one more?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s do one more!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay. [audience lightly applauds]
JARED
I’m Jared. I’m from Queens.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [audience woos]
JARED
Hello. Uh, my gayest is: this week, I ordered an entirely new linen outfit to go to an outdoor wedding in Connecticut, gay wedding.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nice.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, nice.
JARED
My straightest is that, utterly devoid of fashion sense, I had to have a gay friend pick out what I was wearing. [Kyle, Mike, and audience laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeees! [audience applauds] Yes, yes. Be sure to grab the thing. …Awesome, thank you- Another round of applause for you. Thank you for being here. [audience applauds and some cheer]
MIKE JOHNSON
A quick, like, vulnerable moment. This is the- This is the first stop on our, like, 6-city tour and this is the first time that we’ve charged money for a live show and we had no idea what to expect. We could have been playing to an empty room, and yet here you all are, and that’s- The survey helped. We did a listener survey and y’all said that you would show up if we did this. And we did, and you did, so that’s really heartwarming. Thank you for, like, making it feel like this is a thing that we can do. [audience applauds and cheers] Uh, big round of applause for The Spot for hosting us, taking a chance on us being here today. [audience applauds and cheers] Be sure to tip, especially the beautiful muscly one. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, a big thank you to my cousin Vanessa for working the door. She’s absolutely amazing. [audience applauds and cheers] You’re brilliant, and talented, and gorgeous, and I’m very proud of the woman that you’ve become. I wiped that ass, everybody. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Sounds like something you do at a bathhouse. [Mike and audience laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Thank you to everybody who gave their Gayest & Straightest. We really appreciate it. That’s fantastic. [audience applauds]
MIKE JOHNSON
We are- So, here’s order of events. We have to be out of here by 9:30 because they’re doing, like, a piano thing. So we’re gonna be packing up, but feel free to come and say “Hi,” hang out, chat, whatever. Just know that we’re working because we gotta get- like, pack everything up and get out of here. At 9:30 we’re going to be leaving here, whatever state we’re in, [Mike chuckles] dropping the shit off at the hotel, and then we are going to the 9th Avenue Saloon, that’s it, at – uh… I can’t see – 656 9th Avenue. It’s very close. Um, and we’ll be hanging out there for a while. So, come hang out, have a beverage, whatever.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but yeah, thank you again. Really, really appreciate you for being here.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you so much for being here. [audience applauds] I would also like to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrewbr-
MIKE JOHNSON
Nailed it, Kyle. [Mike and audience chuckle] You’re doing so good. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Andewbr Bugbee [TN: Andrew Bugbee], William Bryant, Christopher M, John Crawley…
JOHN CRAWLEY
Hey!
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle chuckles] …Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for your money.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you. [audience and Mike chuckle] [audience applauds] Uh, that is it. From the Chris Khachatourians studios at The Spot in Hell’s Kitchen, here at the island of Manhattan in New York, this has been Gayish. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you!
MIKE JOHNSON
See you next week. [audience cheers and applauds]
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck, Kyle, we did it. [Mike and audience laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Fuck, Mike, we’re done.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 335 Condoms
Wrap up your heart. Wrap up your dick. Mike and Kyle talk about the etymology, the history, the gayta, the tips, and the tricks of using condoms. You scumbag.
In this episode: News- 1:47 || Main Topic (Condoms)- 18:30 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:21:19
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour are available NOW for NYC, Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, and Houston. Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, we talk about what went wrong with the spray-on condom contraption (besides the obvious). Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that’s as big as a great white shart.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. If it’s white, go to the doctor.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Or, you might be a bird.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well… are you a bird?
KYLE GETZ
Wait, hold on, are you a bird? [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god.
KYLE GETZ
I thank you so much for listening. I don’t know our headphones fit in your tiny little ears. That’s so cute… as you’re pooping everywhere.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Nice cloaca. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I love that cloaca. [Mike chuckles] I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, today…
KYLE GETZ
Today…
MIKE JOHNSON
…fasten your seat belts…
KYLE GETZ
…Pigeons, et al. [Mike chuckles] We’re talking about condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re talking about condoms.
KYLE GETZ
This will be a very a very short episode [Mike laughs] with minimal discussion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Hey Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tell me everything you know about condoms.
KYLE GETZ
…This has been Gayish!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great segment. Great segment. [both chuckle] Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks so much for listening! [Mike laughs] I don’t know. I’ve heard tell of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. The fabled condoms of yore. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Some people- Apparently you’re supposed to keep them in your… cupboard? In your refrigerator? I forget where.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Lettuce, tomatoes, condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. You keep ‘em cold so that when you put them on your deck it’s chilly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
It’s like an arctic blast for your dick.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. That’s great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Isn’t it? [both chuckle] Oh, okay, but-
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
…here’s the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
First, we have an update.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
The continuing saga-
KYLE GETZ
Is this news the first, then?
MIKE JOHNSON
No!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. It’s just first.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is the update.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I get it. I get it. This is the update portion. You know.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay, what’s the update?
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t use-
KYLE GETZ
Is this-
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t use my pedantic nature against me! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, but what- What else does it bring me, if not joy, in using it against you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that’s true. Um.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, is the update that I was right and you were wrong?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Bam, bam, bam, bauw, bauw.
MIKE JOHNSON
You were right and I was wrong.
MIKE JOHNSON
The Dodgers have apologized and have reversed the ban on the group The Sex- What am I- Man. Whew. My mouth.
KYLE GETZ
Do we take that again?
MIKE JOHNSON
I should have worn protection. Uh, the Dodgers apologized and have reversed…
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Do you need me to do the news?
MIKE JOHNSON
This is great.
KYLE GETZ
Hey, everybody, this is Kyle’s news segment. The Dodgers have apologized and reversed their decision on the ban against the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, who will now continue to receive their award at the Dodger Stadium for Pride Night.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s correct.
KYLE GETZ
Did I do it?!
MIKE JOHNSON
You did it great.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, cool. I’ll just make up the rest of them. I don’t know the rest of the news, but I can just make it up. Two: everything sucks. Three: it’s still horrible. Four: some gay dude died.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s been the news.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news! I’ll read the Patreon supporters, so let’s go ahead. [both laugh] Jesus Christ. Yeah, okay, so we talked about it on last week’s show but the Dodgers have a Pride Night coming up and they were going to give a community service award to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who are super important and have been doing awesome charity work, especially for raising money for HIV/AIDS, and then a bunch of Catholics flipped their shit because they said that they were, like, making fun of their religion, and got the Dodgers to uninvite the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. They clearly did not know who they were picking a fight with, because all- every fucking gay institution in Los Angeles County, like, came out and said “You are full of shit, you horsefuckers.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So- That’s a new one.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
And then- [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I love it.
MIKE JOHNSON
So then Kyle had predicted that they would reverse that decision and invite them back and I said, “No.” I thought that they had to double down.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was wrong.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. To be fair, I forced you to make a decision. You didn’t- You said- You were gonna say you didn’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep. Um, okay, so- Oh yeah, then that’s coming up on June 16th. So I guess there’s still time for them to fuck it up maybe.
KYLE GETZ
For something else to get fucked up again?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, happy Pride, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
Happy Pride! Wait.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is our first episode of Pride Month.
KYLE GETZ
Is this coming out on Pride?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Oh! Oh! Happy Pride! Fuck, we should have started with something Pride related.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t even- We’re not there yet ourselves, but our spirits-
MIKE JOHNSON
Unless you’re on Patreon and listening a day early, in which case you have nothing to be proud of.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, yeah, sit in a corner and be shameful. [Mike laughs] It is not yet Pride for you. For everyone else, happy Pride!
MIKE JOHNSON
For everyone else, happy Pride. Okay, so, here’s the thing: I do think that I was maybe a tiny bit right.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay, how?
MIKE JOHNSON
In that the Dodgers have also suddenly announced that this year they will have the return of their Christian Faith and Family Day. [Kyle chuckles] So, um-
KYLE GETZ
Do we need- Okay, look, the point of Pride Night is we are- I mean, marketing-wise they’re appealing to an audience that usually doesn’t show up to their baseball games because gays don’t give a fuck about baseball…. except for the pants, those are cute. But anyway, otherwise we’re doing things to raise awareness for groups that are under attack, minority groups, groups that need visibility. Christians and… families… like, y’all got- you have everything. You already have it. That’s baseball. That’s just go to a game and you’re at Christian Family Night.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Like, this is already what baseball is. You have all the attention, all the rights in the country, you don’t need added visibility.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, just go to Walmart, you’re there. It’s Christian Night. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Except, Walmart still has their LGBT section.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, shut your mouth!
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about that later!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Uh, this has been… [Mike laughs] a hint to the future.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah, coming up in July – July 30th at Dodger Stadium – they are going to have Christian Faith and Family Day, which is- Their star pitcher, Clayton Kershaw, who I don’t care about, [Kyle chuckles] is their biggest fan. He tweeted “Excited to announce the relaunch of Christian Faith and Family Day at Dodger Stadium on July 30th. More details to come— but we are grateful for the opportunity to talk about Jesus and determined to make it bigger and better than it was before COVID.”
KYLE GETZ
I did hear they’ll have separate bathrooms just for priests to molest children.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Happy Christian Day.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely. Happy Christian Day.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s celebrate what makes us Christian, and that’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
Batter up. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Eugh. [Mike laughs] The more you think about it, the worse it gets.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Christianity, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay, news the first!
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the first. This one’s really, really awful, so buckle up for that.
KYLE GETZ
M’kay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So there was the Olsztyn Equality March which took place on the 20th of May in Poland, and that is a thing that they’ve been organizing for a while. You might remember, we’ve talked about it on the show before, that Poland is not exactly doing great when it comes to LGBT issues. They famously have had LGBT-free zones that they’ve declared. So it’s like a heightened sense of danger there for LGBT people, But they have this equality March and uh, apparently after the parade, a woman was walking home with a rolled up pride flag under her arm and she was shot in the head with a BB gun.
KYLE GETZ
Holy shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
So- And I think that’s interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because… the intent was not to kill her.
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
The intent was to send a message and dehumanize.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like-
KYLE GETZ
Injure, at least, and scare the shit out of her and- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. “The victim suffered minor head injuries and was checked over in hospital before being released. The case has been reported to police but the perpetrator has not yet been found.” Willing to bet that they will never find that person, because the police have to give a shit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah, the Equality March organizers released a statement saying, quote, “This is an attack on all of us! Even if the police refuse to see a link between the shooting and the Equality March, we explicitly condemn this attack as an act of violence directed against the entire LGBTQIA+ community and its allies.” “This is what we face all over Poland, including Ols-” “Ols-” “Ols-” I don’t know how to say that city’s name, Kyle. [Kyle chuckles] “…Olsztyn. This is our home and we have the right to feel safe here. You will not intimidate us!” There’s only one vowel in that name, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. [Mike laughs] Polish language loves every consonant, especially Z’s and V’s and K’s in case, like all in a row.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Yep. ILGA-Europe has rated Poland as the worst EU nation for LGBTQ+ rights.
KYLE GETZ
Wooow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Comes in last, out of 27 countries ranked based on how their laws and policies impact the lives of LGBTQ+ people.
KYLE GETZ
Ew.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, first of all, thanks for having this Equality March. Clearly it’s a place where that is needed.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sorry about the BB gun to the head, that’s not so great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, very glad that this isn’t, like, a murder fatality situation for us to be reporting on.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, Poland, get your shit together!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. It’s one of those things where it’s like- People are like “You rub it in our faces,” like “You’re-” and it’s, like… someone was just walking home. Like, with a rolled up pride flag under her arm! Like, was just walking home!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Just walking home. Being a human.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs] News the second.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Uh, Houghton University in western New York has fired two former dormitory directors. That is a small Christian University. And they said it’s simply because they refused to remove their pronouns from their email signatures.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah. Shua Wilmot and Raegan Zelaya, who have unconventional names and that’s their defense for why they included their pronouns, I’ll go into that in just a little bit. But uh, yeah, Wilmot goes by he/him pronouns, Zelaya goes by she/her pronouns. So the university implemented a new policy for email formats in September, indicating that they should not include any “adornment” to your name, like pronouns.
KYLE GETZ
“Adornment”.
MIKE JOHNSON
So Wilmot said “My name is Shua. It’s an unusual name. And it ends with a vowel, ‘a,’ that is traditionally feminine in many languages.” “If you get an email from me and you don’t know who I am, you might not know how to gender me.” So he puts he/him. [chuckles] Like, plus, everybody should put their fuckin’ pronouns. It is so easy to do and pisses off the right people, [Kyle laughs] and indicates your support to people who need support.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like it’s-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Please just do it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There are similar controversies that are going on, one right here in our own backyard. There are 16 plaintiffs that are suing Seattle Pacific University, which is a Christian liberal arts college less than a mile from here, that the school has an employment policy that bars people that are in same-sex relationships from any full-time job on campus.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
In New York City, LGBTQ students are challenging Yeshiva University’s decision to bar their student-run club from campus. We’ve talked about that before. It’s just, they are being even more freaked out, and bold, and horseshit about things because God. And I just- It’s so stupid.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. These people didn’t know what pronouns were like a year ago, and now they hate them. And it’s one of those things where it’s like… no one- Like “We will not share, like, what our gender is.” And then you’re like “Okay, ‘Mr. Smith’. Like, what do I call you now? Do I just call you ‘Smith’?” And then I saw, like, someone that was trying to pass some dumb law about talking about sexual orientation and was like “Okay, when I talk about George Washington, who was he married to? Can I not talk about her?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
That’s- People- They don’t register that sex- they themselves have a sexual orientation. They sit themselves out of gender identity, that pronouns exist and we use them all the time. They don’t know that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, obviously, we don’t mean the normal one, Kyle. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We don’t mean the normal one, we mean that weird one like you people. Yeah, exactly. It’s just so frustrating, because you use pronouns all the time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
And you’re just- You’re just now picking up on, if you put this in your email signature, that that means I support trans people, and everything is about just attacking trans people right now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. 100% is, and I’m so, so sorry.
KYLE GETZ
It sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs] News the last. Uh, it’s not gonna get better, Kyle. It’s just- The hits keep on comin’.
KYLE GETZ
M’kay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but let’s talk about Target.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I had to go back and listen. I apparently didn’t talk about it on the show last week at all. You sort of did, but um-
KYLE GETZ
No. No, no, no, I- [laughs] Someone mentioned- I mentioned, like, “Oh, I think it’s great when-” Um, Rachael, from our Queer Jews episode, mentioned, like, “It’s great when I go into-” and I forget if she actually said a place, but I use the example of “…in Target, that I see rainbow colors, and that shows…” Like, that there’s something cool and useful about that even though it’s coming from a place of corporate greed. Like, it’s still a cool thing to see.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, apparently Target has made the decision to remove some of its Pride merchandise, in light of threats the company received. Target announced this week, quote, “[We’re] removing items that have been at the center of the most significant confrontational behavior.” So, customers have antagonized Target workers, damaged merchandise displays, made threats via social media, and they are relenting by removing the most controversial of the items. The right wing is really focused on a tuck-friendly swimsuit, saying that it was being marketed to children. It’s not. It’s clearly identified as being for adults. But they’re also objecting to merchandise from trans designer Erik Carnell. Some of his products feature skulls, demons, and other scary images but Target wasn’t carrying those, instead selling tote bags and sweatshirts from the designer with pro-LGBTQ+ slogans. The Target employees in the south told Business Insider that the company has quit marketing some trans-focused Pride items and that the tuck-friendly swimwear is no longer available. In some stores, Pride displays have been moved from the front of the store to less prominent areas. So, between this and Anheuser-Busch and the Bud Light stuff, they’re losing their goddamn minds this Pride, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fucking straight people, get your shit together.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Go attack a fellow straight person.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] If you want to attack anyone this Pride, attack another straight person.
MIKE JOHNSON
I want some straight-on-straight violence in the Pride section of Target.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, it’s really frustrating because this is exactly the issue with corporate Pride, is that because it’s not- its foundation is not rooted on the equal treatment of all LGBT people and working towards achieving that end goal, when it is threatened what we have to do is- Well, we can’t stop being gay and we can’t stop fighting for equality, so we have to stick by our morals and what we believe. Whereas, when Target is attacked, what they’re gonna look at is “How does this affect my money and my ability to employ people and, you know, which helps us make money and all that stuff?” And so it will cave because the root – the root reason this is coming up – is very different. So this is the- We’re seeing the downsides of corporate Pride. We have to know that it is temporary, it is built upon the idea of money, and it doesn’t actually care that much about LGBT rights.
MIKE JOHNSON
I will also say: I was in this, like, bubble that said that we had made it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That we had reached a point in our society, in our culture, where gay people, even if not everybody was on board, that we had arrived on the stage in a place where companies had to back us, at least for June.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? And that has been shattered this year, right? Like, between the Dodgers, and Bud Light, and Target, and whatever else is going on out there in the universe. Apparently not, right? Like, a big enough of a stink, which apparently the right is willing to make this year- It is no longer… It’s no longer a slam dunk. It’s no longer, like, a for sure thing that we’re gonna be supported.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s a wakeup call. I hope that’s a wakeup call to every queer person that listens to this show. Like, it’s- We’re taking huge, giant, massive steps backward.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And… I don’t know what to do about it.
KYLE GETZ
And the parts of our community- Gender-nonconformity seems to be the central pillar, whether that’s drag queens, or trans people, or Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Like, gender-nonconformity is being brought into the, like, limelight of attack. And so we need to be sure that, with the rights, and social understanding, and laws that gay people have gained, that this is the time where all those people who have often been at the forefront of fighting for our rights in history, that we continue to show that we are all together in this, that you’re attacking everyone when you do that, that we- Like, it would be very easy to want- Some groups just want to break off and be like “Eh, no. Like, gays and lesbians will just keep plugging along,” and it’s, like… That can’t happen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So now’s the time to, like, double down efforts and support for those in our community that need it most. And, you know, previously we’ve seen people of color and Black people being attacked even within our within our community. And we need to continue to look out for those that are at most risk of attack and-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And, like, the murder rate for trans women of color was astronomical, even before this year when the right wing crazies got crazier.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, great. Happy Pride, Kyle. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Happy Pride, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news. Speaking of none of that, because we’re gonna… because we’re happy now, I wanna-
MIKE JOHNSON
Segues!
KYLE GETZ
Speaking of segues, um, I want to ride on over to the following Patreon member. Thank you to J Louviere.
MIKE JOHNSON
Lou- Louviere?
KYLE GETZ
[speaking Frenchly] Louvieree. Louvieree. Louvieroo. Roo hoo hoo hoo! [speaking normally] Thank you for supporting us.
MIKE JOHNSON
J.L.
KYLE GETZ
J.L., for supporting us. [both laugh] If you want episodes a day early, ad-free episodes, bonus content, episodes, bonus video, merch stuff, go to gayishpodcast.com- Nope. You can go there, and it’ll be fun, but you should also go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, do it. Do you want to talk about condoms, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s talk about condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about condoms.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s find something to talk about condoms. So…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…when was the last time you used a condom, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, for dick purposes?
KYLE GETZ
What? [Mike laughs] No. Now I want to know what the last time you used it, regardless.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Wouldn’t you like to know, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Mhm!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] No, last time I use a condom, uh… um…
KYLE GETZ
Water balloon fight? I’m trying to think of what else you could use them for.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like a year ago?
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh! Good for you.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know. Sure. Why not?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Umm… how about you?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Boy, it was the spring of 2011… [both laugh] No, I don’t know. Um, I did use one not too long ago with someone that was like “I-”
MIKE JOHNSON
…Preferred that?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, within the past year, I’d say.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, I think… It’s really interesting, because I feel a sense of personal responsibility and, like, I want to be a good role model and do the, like, “Do as I say, don’t do as I do,” thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I’m not super great at using condoms.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I’m guilty of what I think a lot of gay men are guilty of, which was, like, PrEP came out and now that HIV is off the table, everything else give me penicillin and I’m fine, and go, like, go, you know, raw dog. And that’s not great.
KYLE GETZ
Well, we’ll talk a little bit more about that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Um, about whether that’s true. But um, yeah, I think there’s both our personal- Like, yeah, I don’t necessarily want people to do what I do because it’s not great but, like, let’s talk about why that is and some of the risks that we are taking, because I want other people to make their own decision, but also knowing what the risks are. I think there’s- It’s misleading to think like “Oh, yeah, I could just maybe get, you know, chlamydia and that’s it.” Like there are a lot of other stuff, even if it’s not HIV, that you can get.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like…
MIKE JOHNSON
Syphilis, herpes, gonorrhea, uh… monkeypox.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yep, yep. There’s plenty of other things that you are risking by not using condoms, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like getting your heart broken. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Aww, there’s no condom for your heart.
MIKE JOHNSON
Break hearts, not condoms, everybody. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Um, wrap up your heart.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Next time before you have sex, wrap up your heart, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God.
KYLE GETZ
It’s the most likely thing to… get syphilis.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Great. Great. Great, great, great. Believe it or not, that kind of is a good segue into the history of condoms, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
Sure, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about the history of condoms first.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So according to Etymonline, one of my very favorite sites, I use it a lot-
KYLE GETZ
“Adam Online”?
MIKE JOHNSON
“Etymonline”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Etymology online.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, oh, oh. Got it.
MIKE JOHNSON
…We’re not exactly sure where the word “condom” came from. So there’s a theory that it came from a British physician during the reign of Charles II. That story was traceable back to 1709 but there’s no evidence that that person actually existed. Like, Dr. Condom was not a person.
KYLE GETZ
Dr. Condom, [laughs] The worst superhero.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Hey, kids, I shoot condoms out of my eyeballs,” and they’re like “We don’t use that, so you’re really pointless, Dr. Condom.”
MIKE JOHNSON
The word “condom” is not in the original OED from 1890, so it was fairly uncommon until recently. And uh, it also- Some variations on the spelling of it over the years suggests that it might be from the Italian word “guantone” or “guanto” which means “glove”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And apparently, like, there’s a measurable spike in usage in November of 1986 in a speech by Surgeon General C. Everett Koop on AIDS prevention and the importance of condoms in AIDS prevention. Usually it was called “prophylactic” or a “preventative” before that in, like, medical terminology, advertising, that kind of stuff. And not to say that, like, it was not used at all. It’s just, especially in mass media, there’s this- like, the surgeon general goes out and talks about the importance of condoms when it comes to HIV/AIDS and all of a sudden people are saying the word “condom” and writing it down more often.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. That would make sense to me, that AIDS could have had had an influence on how we talk about safer sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
100%. Yeah. Uh, speaking of other names for condoms, one- I found a whole list and I’m super excited about them. “Love glove” or “No glove, no love.”
KYLE GETZ
Yep. “Dick dam”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “raincoat”.
KYLE GETZ
“Raincoat”, yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Bubble wrap”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I haven’t heard that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “party hat”.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] How about “jimmy cap”?
MIKE JOHNSON
“Jimmy”. “Jimmy” or “johnny”.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. “Johnny”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Uh, “rubber”.
KYLE GETZ
Usually when Johnny’s on my dick it’s… [Mike chuckles] he has a last name too.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Airbag”. “Schlong sarong” [both laugh] because it’s a wrap.
KYLE GETZ
I guess so. I guess so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but uh, I did not realize this and I’m super happy about it: the original meaning of “scumbag” was “used condom”. Like, that insult comes from the bag you keep your scum in. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Ew, do people call cum “scum”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently so, at least in this- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Scum in me, daddy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God. Oh no. No!
KYLE GETZ
Gimme that scum!
MIKE JOHNSON
Stop it. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Scum me!
MIKE JOHNSON
Stop it! [chuckles] Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Shoot that scum on my face.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, now- I watch a lot of cooking shows and they’re always boiling meat and talking about skimming the scum off the top, and now I’m just gonna imagine it’s just bubbly jizz.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve never heard anyone call jizz “scum”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently that used to be fairly common, and that’s why “scumbag” became an insult.
KYLE GETZ
I like “cumbag”-
MIKE JOHNSON
“Cumbag”. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
-as another word for “condom”. That makes sense to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, okay, now to the history of condoms. So, condoms for sure go back a few centuries. And before the 15th century, there was some use of what are called “glans condoms” which are devices that only cover the head of the penis.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And uh, that leads to the idea that they were for birth control, not for preventing STIs.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. And there’s gotta be some overflow.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s gotta be some overflow. Well, and also, apparently they would come off pretty easy.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. That makes sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, that makes sense.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, you know. Some of them had a ribbon that they would tie to make it-
KYLE GETZ
Aw, cute! Tie it with a little bow! Tie that scumbag with a little bow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep. Absolutely. So, they were most prevalent before the 15th century in Asia and were probably used only by members of the upper classes. in China, condoms just for the head of the penis were- they found them that were made out of oiled silk paper… or lamb intestines. Um, in Japan-
KYLE GETZ
Is that- So, is that because they could- they were the ones that could afford that kind of thing? Or-
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct.
KYLE GETZ
Or, it also seems like maybe education among- Like, I’m trying to, like, connect that to thinking about, like, what would connect to today’s use in condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I might get this wrong because I didn’t write it down, but there- it is certainly, at least partially, about cost. Even after, like, more or less modern times, like industrial revolution time, there was one anecdote I read that said that sex workers couldn’t afford condoms because a condom would cost approximately a month’s wages.
KYLE GETZ
Holy shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah, um…
KYLE GETZ
God, that lamb… bladder that you use must be super- Oh, you’d have to go kill the lamb yourself…
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, exactly. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
You’d have to pretend that you hadn’t named him at the time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Shh. Goodnight, Cheryl. [makes a visceral sound with mouth]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Goodbye.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll always love you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Give me that bladder sack so I can wear it on my dick.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
You scumbag.
MIKE JOHNSON
Now, whether the- So, the first absolutely no one denies it, it is for sure condoms the way we think of condoms being used, was in 16th century Italy in a book called “De Morbo Gallico” which translates as “The French Disease” which is what they called syphilis.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Holy shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it was published in 1564 and it was written by – and I shit you not, this is a real person that I learned about today – Gabriele Falloppio, [Kyle laughs] for whom the fallopian tubes are named.
KYLE GETZ
Tubular.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. Um, he, in this book, claimed to have invented the condom, a device made of linen sheaths soaked in a chemical solution and allowed to dry before use.
KYLE GETZ
They were not called condoms though at that time, right? Because you said it was until, like, the 80s that we spiked-
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct. These were one of those that were held on with a ribbon. Falloppio claimed to have performed an experimental trial of the linen sheath on 1100 men and reported that none of them had gotten syphilis.
KYLE GETZ
God, I would love to fuck 1100 men for science.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Thanks, Mr. Falloppio.
KYLE GETZ
Man, really doing your work.
MIKE JOHNSON
So that’s, like, for sure, at least in Western society, like, the origin. But there are a lot of historians that say that there are signs going back even further. archaeologists and historians have found some things that they point to that say, like- Even ancient societies were, like, using condom or condom-like things. One that I thought was super interesting is there is a Greek myth about Minos, who was a king of Crete, son of Zeus and Europa, and Antoninus Liberalis in 150 AD wrote it down, and they said that they think it indicates that condoms were a thing that people knew about, because it wasn’t weird to them that in this story he was cursed and the curse made his jizz contain serpents and scorpions. So-
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Medusa’s dick.
MIKE JOHNSON
But he couldn’t not have sex, so he used a goat bladder as a condom.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. He used a goat bladder to catch the serpents.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yes, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, we’ve been demonizing sex for so long,
MIKE JOHNSON
I guess so, I guess so. But I- I don’t know. I don’t know, necessarily. I think I’m on the side of the scholars that are like “That doesn’t mean that people were using condoms in the 2nd century.”
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Eh, the idea of, like, “You gotta protect the stuff that comes out you…” eh, I could see that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Eh, well… Okay, a curse where scorpions come out of your dick? Like, that’s some metal shit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Ow!
MIKE JOHNSON
Ow!
KYLE GETZ
Pinch.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think I would stop having sex.
KYLE GETZ
But, I mean, how can one? [chuckles] Is it possible to stop having sex at all?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean… this is a good point.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] No, I don’t know. If I jizzed scorpions, I probably would cut it off.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, so they may have been used before this, but using the cecum or the intestines of lamb or sheep is still a thing that happens, but condoms are also- they started being made out of rubber and- which, that made them a more economical choice.
KYLE GETZ
So they didn’t cost a month’s salary anymore?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. But also, apparently, originally, rubber condoms were prized for their reusability.
KYLE GETZ
What!?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, they would-
KYLE GETZ
Just wash it off?
MIKE JOHNSON
-wash it out and then put it back on. And so they, um- Skinned condoms offered better sensitivity, because rubber condoms at the initial stage were pretty thick and that’s what made them reusable, but they also didn’t feel as good. I learned that, uh- And then they started making them out of latex in the 20s, and then by 1931 they were issuing condoms to all members of the US military.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, they’re like “Free healthcare.” Hey, we did it, America.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we did it. We did it. We did it. But that’s also interesting because distribution of condoms in the United States was limited by passage of what are called the Comstock Laws, one of which was a federal act that banned the mailing of contraceptive information. There were also state laws that banned the manufacture or sale of condoms in 30 states. We had some weird ideas in the late 19th century.
KYLE GETZ
Is that the thing like “If it’s not to make a baby, then we hate it”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep, yep. In Ireland, the 1889 Indecent Advertisements Act made it illegal to advertise condoms. Contraceptives were illegal in 19th century Italy and Germany. There’s a theme here though that we need to talk about, which is goddamn fuckin’ Catholics, Kyle. [Kyle laughs] As early as the 1600s, in 1605 in De Justitia et Jurei, which is “On Justice and Law”, Leonardus Lessius, a Catholic theologian, said that condoms are “immoral”, “They go against God in his tantamount mission for mankind to spread their seed,” and “Condoms are bad, don’t use them,” and the Catholic Church has never changed that even a little bit ever since. So, like, all kinds of contraception are banned under Catholic dogma, but- and that includes condoms, but they’ve been doing that for a really long time. Fuck you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ Catholics.
KYLE GETZ
It’s so surprising- Like, I feel like churches have… started to have to make concessions or change their opinions. I thought they were starting to get there on gay and lesbian issues.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I feel like they’ve started to make progress or realize they had to. Their business, that is realizing that with declining membership they have to do something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I guess it makes sense then, that, actually as I’m saying that. To keep membership up, continuing to say “You can’t use a condom,” makes sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Because then you will have more- Especially as, you know, less and less people have kids.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
if the ones that are having kids are the Catholics…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Or the Mormons, but yes.
KYLE GETZ
Or the Mormons, yes. [chuckles] Then that’s actually helpful to them. So I don’t- Yeah, I guess this is one to hold on to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, the Catholic Church almost certainly was a major influence on the fact that a lot of condoms were illegal from the late 19th century, in the United States, until the 60s.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the sticking point, is it always then turns into “…and no one else can use them either.” It’s not just “We don’t believe them.” It’s “And-” “We don’t believe in them,” or “We don’t like this thing,” it’s that “…and everyone else has to dislike it too.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely. Yep. God dammit.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s have a Condom Night at the Dodger Stadium.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s do it. Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s Condom Night.
KYLE GETZ
It’s Condom Night. [chuckles] We’ll have to figure out where you find condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ugh, God. Anyway, that’s more or less the history of condoms. They’ve been around for, at the very least, like 4 or 5 hundred years, possibly longer than that, and they were made out of all kinds of stuff, and… yeah, that’s it. That’s the history of condoms.
KYLE GETZ
Um, do you want to hear some gayta on condoms?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s hear some gayta on condoms. It’s gonna say… we don’t use them, gays. I don’t know, w-
KYLE GETZ
We’ll see. We’ll see. [Mike chuckles] No, that- Okay, well, I should ask you, yeah. What’s your, kind of, theories on gay men’s condom use?
MIKE JOHNSON
My theory is that it has changed, and that has changed since PrEP. I’m going to guess that before PrEP, so pre-2008, somewhere in there, that it was much, much higher than it is now, and that now is probably like less than 20%. But that’s just me being a slut.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Um, and I think that’s people’s general stereotype, is that gay men have a lot of sex, don’t use condoms, and PrEP has made them particularly risky at no condom use.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s not totally true.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, great!
KYLE GETZ
So, a 2016 article from aidsmap.com talked about-
MIKE JOHNSON
I know you don’t believe this, but I love being wrong.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, no, I believe that okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I believe, like, you, more than most people, would, like- You just need to know the information and then you’re okay changing whatever view you have. Most people, like, have this kind of fight with themselves that, like, “No, but I want to be right,” and I believe you have a far lower- Like, you just want the data and the truth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Now give me this fake news, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] From aidsmap.com, they talked about the fact that condom use among men who have sex with men has been declining even before PrEP.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So it’s- There’s- And they don’t know exactly why, but-
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe HIV treatment options? Because those also got way better before PrEP. Like, you know, AZT was out, like, the late 80s, early 90s, and we just got better at treating it ever since. Maybe that- Maybe it’s more gradual but that’s why.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe it’s less scary? The idea of-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It definitely didn’t feel like a death sentence anymore at some point.
KYLE GETZ
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, the stuff they showed was HIV-negative man reporting sex without a condom. So, the CDC- This is based on CDC research that asked whether a condom was used with their last anal sex partner, and I’ll go through time. 2005, 29% reported that the last time they had sex was without a condom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
In 2008 it was 33%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
So it jumped up by 4 percentage points. In 2011 it was 35%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
In 2014 it was 41%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
So the- [chuckles] Are you getting horny as the numbers go higher? [Mike laughs] More men to have sex without a condom with. So over time it increases, the number of, like, people that they asked whose last sex was without a condom, and it kinda is a few percentage points each time that they ask that has been increasing. They also mentioned that PrEP, in 2014 at least – which is the last date that I mentioned, it was at 41% reported sex without a condom – in 2014, 3.5% of men were using PrEP.
MIKE JOHNSON
3.5?
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, of “men”, not “queer men”.
KYLE GETZ
Um… good question. I don’t know. Either way, it’s- It was a super low number of- I think this was all about men who have sex with men, so that’s what I guess, but I’m not sure. But there is a very low [chuckles] penetration of [Mike chuckles] PrEP use within- even when some of these numbers started coming out. I mean, you mentioned 2008 as just your rough guess, and even before that, it was still going up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, because that data’s from 2016, the trend I- Another article- A lot of the data I found was, you know, around this time or earlier. So, the… Guttmacher Institute- Oh, God, I want to get gutt mached. Guttmacher me. Um, the Guttmacher- [like “motch-er”] Macher? [like “mah-chair”] I don’t know. The Guttmacher Institute published a report in April 2021 documenting that the trends around safe sex from 2006 to 2019 – so, that continued 5 more years after what I said – and found that contraceptive use overall had increased, but condom use had continued to decline over time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, that’s fucking interesting.
KYLE GETZ
So the trend continues even past this. There was, like- That was in a Buzzfeed article that talked about even, like, through the pandemic, like, that this trend continued. So the greatest increase in sex without condoms was seen in young men aged 18 to 24.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So I-
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re welcome, boys.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Is it ‘cause you’re fucking those 18 to 24 year olds?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s been a great couple years, Kyle. [both laugh] Daddy.
KYLE GETZ
You don’t need a condom. Daddy says “No.” So, I started having sex around the middle of this date at like, what, 2009 or something? I’m in the early part of this. And so, yeah, and I used a condom the first time I had sex but then did not regularly use a condom even back when I was having sex, which was in college which was before PrEP. And… yeah, and I was age 18 to 24. Like, I don’t know, it makes sense to me that that group is at a higher risk and that, around this time, like, I fit in with these numbers of… I was probably one of those people that was not as likely to use condoms, and contributed to the increase of condomless sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm, hm, hm.
KYLE GETZ
So, we talked about there are a variety of reasons to use condoms, and HIV is the main one that we bring up, but there are a lot of other reasons to. However, I think it’s still important, especially because we are talking about HIV, that we talk about black men who have a unique- Um, a 2017 study from the CDC said that 1 in every 2 Black men in the US will get HIV in his lifetime.
MIKE JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
50%?
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. So, according to a 20-
MIKE JOHNSON
Is this still MSM or is this, like, anybody?
KYLE GETZ
It said “…2 gay Black men.” “1 in every 2 gay Black men.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Gay Black men, okay. Great. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But a 2014 Reuters article said that “According to our data-” This is a quote from someone else. According to the Journal of Sexually Transmitted Infections, “…condoms may be used more frequently by black (men who have sex with men), but they are also used less effectively and with more errors.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
So, it seems to be that Black men have gotten this message and are using condoms more, which is great, but there are issues with them breaking, or slipping, or not being used correctly. Apparently, 31% of Black men said their condoms worked effectively, compared to 43% of White men. So- And Black men who have sex with men are about 6 times more likely to be diagnosed with HIV compared to White men who have sex with men. Some of the reasons for this are thought to be – and we don’t totally know everything – increased prevalence of HIV among Black men… lack of access to treatment and prevention services-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And that’s my guess.
KYLE GETZ
That would make a lot of sense, that we don’t care as much about the areas of the country that are predominantly Black, that we don’t- we give them less access to resources and care less about making sure there’s a hospital, or making sure there’s healthcare, or making sure there’s even food or… You know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well yeah, and our healthcare system’s so fucked up, it’s so fuckin’ expensive and, like, people of color, make less money because the world is fuckin’ stupid.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep. Other reasons: stigma, discrimination, but they say that condom breaks and improper condom use may also play a role. If more of them are reporting issues with using condoms, then that could be a contributing factor. So how does this compare to straight people? So, the latest- The last data point I had was 2014, for gay people at least. In 2014 it was 41% said that they had sex without a condom in their last sexual encounter. So, actually, backing up to that, like, I don’t know, maybe- If we stop right there, then that’s still a majority that reported, that means 59% said that they did use a condom with their last sexual- anal sex encounter. So that already- That idea bucks the stereotype that, like, every gay man is having condomless sex all the time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
If the trend continues like it is, a few percentage points every year, we might be closer to 50/50 these days, like, if we just draw a straight line with the numbers that we’re seeing, but it’s still not like an overwhelming majority or anything that are going condomless. Which, I think- So, I think, even if the numbers have increased since that 2014 number, I still think it goes against the stereotype that people have.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I’m a bad person. Thanks for that, Kyle! Appreciate it. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem. Gayish: we learn we’re bad people. No, I think you have the same assumption that a lot of people do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m also fighting the human tendency to do exactly what we said earlier and be like “Well, maybe they’re lying! Maybe they’re saying they’re using condoms when they’re really not.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because I want- I want it to be true. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well- Yeah. And there is, like- People lie. They also did this survey at, like, gay clubs and places that gay men hang out. Like, so there may be, like- You know, there a lot of reasons that the numbers- So, the numbers themselves may not be totally true.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] “Yes, I totally use condoms all the time!” [whispering] I don’t use condoms.
KYLE GETZ
Ah, “Hello, boys! I use condoms all the time and I love them!”
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t tell my judgy friends. They’re right over there. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
So then, at that point, if, you know, we’re asking about that, we’re still looking at the year over year data that shows the increase. So, presumably, the same percentage of people will lie, or the- You know? Like, as long as we’re doing consistent format then we can at least compare the numbers. Speaking of what we cannot compare, a completely different study though is what I’ll share, at least for straight people because, you know, all studies have different methodologies and the number- So, the numbers themselves can’t be compared but I just wanted to get a ballpark of where straight people are at with this. So, there was a 2017 research study about straight people called “Factors Associated With Condom Use Among Sexually Active US Adults, National Survey of Family Growth”, and, of course, when they say “Among … Active US Adults” and a “National Survey”, they mean straight people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure, yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Because that’s the default. If it’s not- If you don’t see “gay” in the headline of the research article, it’s- they’re not gonna include gay people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But, um-
MIKE JOHNSON
But are they gonna exclude gay people?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. In this one they did exclude- They just looked at single men and single women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you know that that’s what the Alanis Morissette song “Uninvited” is about?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Gay men in surveys?
MIKE JOHNSON
Keeping them out surveys, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That would make sense. Play that during every gayta segment I do. So, for unmarried or single men that reported using a condom during their last sexual encounter, it was 51%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
51% used a condom in their last sexual encounter.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
And these are straight. They excluded the gays, so these are…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…straight men. For unmarried and single women who reported using a condom during their last sexual encounter, it was 37%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
Which-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow. That surprises me.
KYLE GETZ
Me too. Why did it surprise you?
MIKE JOHNSON
I just think of girls as being more responsible. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then I guess there’s also this bullshit, like patriarchy, whatever, that, like, the dudes are in charge. Like, the men are supposed to bring the condoms and decide whether they’re being used or not and, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s part of- Especially in my earlier days, that was part of my struggle, is, like, having the assertiveness. Like, women have been set up and trained not to be- Like, if you’re assertive you’re “a bitch”. So, like, if you, during any kind of sexual encounter, are asserting any kind of…
MIKE JOHNSON
Boundary whatsoever?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. And it’s- I’m using the word “assert”, but, like, stating. Not that you’re being rude, or mean, or anything about it. If you just state a boundary, like you said, then that would be grounds for, like, [in a bro voice] “I can’t believe what she did, man.” But anyway, the other- Yes. So, I am also surprised. The other thing I thought is maybe women know that they have to take matters into their own hands, especially for pregnancy, and maybe they’re less likely to have used them because they’re like “Well, I know I got my pregnancy sitch figured out,” whereas a man sleeping with a woman doesn’t know… don’t know what she’s been doing, or not doing, or what have you. So maybe they’re more likely to be like “No,” for m- Like, that’s the thing they can do for their own personal, you know, safety of not getting pregnant.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, that was my other idea. But yeah, even straight people bucked the trends or the stereotypes that I had for them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh.
KYLE GETZ
And, again, like, we can’t compare these numbers, but it’s like… So, 51% of single men- Like, all of these are- Like, we’re not too far away then from…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah,
KYLE GETZ
Like, our condom use doesn’t seem to be too far away from each other.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s so interesting because, like, the two big value propositions of condoms are the prevention of STIs and the prevention of pregnancy. And, cis gay dudes anyway, that’s not gonna- like, pregnancy is not going to happen, so I would think that that would- Like, with a whole use case out of the picture, I would think that that would skew things way more than apparently they do.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And I mean- Even, again, like, while we can’t compare these numbers directly, like… I don’t know. If we did, it would say straight people u-
MIKE JOHNSON
Say that with more derision. [derisively] Straight people. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
[derisively] Straight people. People have the straight persuasion. I wanna talk about it like the way they talk about- People whose preference is to be straight.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, people struggling from opposite sex attraction. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
People who deal with the affliction of being straight. [Mike laughs] It says that they use condoms less than us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, again, like, we can’t actually compare the numbers so I don’t know that for sure, but it’s funny that even that concept is like mind blowing, that no one would believe. If you just told a random gay person and said “Hey, gays use condoms more than straight people,” they would be like “Fuck you, no they don’t.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“No gay uses a condom.” And so maybe it’s that we’ve learned- We showed, especially, I think, during monkeypox, that our response to health crises is better than [chuckles] straight people on the whole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm, mhm. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Um, so maybe-
MIKE JOHNSON
In the hole.
KYLE GETZ
In the hole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Around the hole. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
With the scumbag, without the scum- So maybe we are, because of- Even though it hasn’t- Maybe some of the effects are fading away. Our response to the AIDS crisis, like, maybe there’s still increased condom usage because of that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I think it’s likely or possible.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I really- I really keep coming back to HIV/AIDS as being, like… it has to be a big factor here.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, um-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And, if so, that would make sense that the further away you get from it, the less and less people that lived through it-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-and saw all the, you know, everything that it wreaked on the society.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, it could make sense that then people are less kind of moved by that experience.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Huh.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Those are the numbers.
MIKE JOHNSON
Those are the numbers. Well, we’re gonna talk about more numbers.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we’re gonna talk about condom sizes.
KYLE GETZ
Oohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I know that you’ve got some more stuff later on, like the right way to use a condom.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, um-
KYLE GETZ
Put it in the trash! [both laugh] No, use it, if you want. I don’t know. I’m not your mom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Medical News Today, which is a site that I found, talks about condoms sizing and they say the condoms that are too small may break, condoms that are too big can slip off, and poor fitting condoms can feel uncomfortable during sex. So the people that are like “I don’t like the way that it feels,” might be onto something. But the people who say “It isn’t going to fit,” are wrong. [Kyle chuckles] Like, your dick is not too big for a condom, because I can put a condom over my entire head. [Kyle laughs] That’s not saying-
KYLE GETZ
And now, for the Patreon segment, [Mike chuckles] Mike will be placing-
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ll do that. I don’t give a fuck!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, alright. Let’s put- We have- [crinkling sound] Ooo, this is some ASMR shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
[crinkling continues] [whispering] That’s the sound of condoms rubbing together. I bought condoms at the store.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
[whispering] And I had to- [speaking normally] I didn’t buy condoms at the store, I was just trying to do an ASMR thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, according to the Cleveland Clinic, the average erect penis length is about five inches, average girth is around four and a half inches when erect, that’s circumference. And so, the Food and Drug Administration – and they’re the ones that regulate condoms as a medical device – say that the minimum length for external condoms is 160 millimeters that’s 6.3 inches.
KYLE GETZ
Wait, the minimum?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. They have to be at least that long because the idea is then they will fit, like, 85% of the population.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, in terms of length.
KYLE GETZ
But if you have an average-length dick then it won’t fit you.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’ll just have a little bit left over at the bottom.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is actually ideal, I guess, apparently?
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know, you’re the one that’s gonna talk about using them. That leaves some room for the condom to remain rolled at the base for an average-sized penis. Trojan brand, for example, says that their standard condom is the proper fitting choice for a penis between 5 and 7 inches long with a girth of 4 to 5 inches. Which, if you look at, like, actual data about this, there are no 10 inch dicks, everyone. Stop @ing me.
KYLE GETZ
You’re wrong.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s, like- Okay. [Kyle chuckles] I might- I’m open to- I’m open to evidence-based-
KYLE GETZ
You’re not.
MIKE JOHNSON
I am.
KYLE GETZ
That’s okay. No you’re not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, uh… but if you look- If you look at the bell curves, that fits, like, the vast majority of men. So, quote, “For the vast majority of people, standard sizes are appropriate, but everyone’s anatomy is different,” “It’s best to read the information from that specific condom manufacturer for their guidance on how to determine the best fit for you, and that information should be readily available on the packaging.” I kind of liked this: “It’s kind of like picking out a pair of jeans. Sure, there’s no shortage of pairs that’ll cover you from hip to ankle, but you may find certain brands or certain cuts to be more comfortable. Maybe you’re the straight-leg type or perhaps bootcut is more your jam,” [Kyle laughs] “Nothing wrong with being a little choosy.” “A properly fitted condom will cover your penis snuggly (but not too tightly) from tip to base, with a half-inch reservoir at the tip. For some people-”
KYLE GETZ
Hah, “reservoir”.
MIKE JOHNSON
“-that may leave an extra bit of rolled condom at the base [and] that’s OK, and some people prefer that feeling,” like a little cock ring.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
“But if it doesn’t reach to the base of your penis near your stomach, that’s a clear sign to try a bigger size.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, running out of condom and you’re not all the way down, that’s maybe- Maybe- You know, congratulations, move up.
KYLE GETZ
If you have an extra, like, little rolled up part at the base you can just stick those balls in too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Just shove them balls right in there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Just do it. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I mean, why not? You got extra.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Otherwise it’s wasteful.
KYLE GETZ
Otherwise it’s wasteful. [Mike laughs] Use all of your condom, it’s like finishing your vegetables. [Mike chuckles] Use all the condom you have. There are some kids in – name a country here – that don’t get any condom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Use all your condom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ukrainian soldiers don’t have condoms.
KYLE GETZ
Exactly.
MIKE JOHNSON
You should- [both chuckle] Yeah, no leftovers.
KYLE GETZ
No leftover condom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, back to Medical News Today.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Back to actual information.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, in general, length is less of a problem than girth in terms of finding condoms that are fit appropriately.
KYLE GETZ
Finding butts that fit appropriately too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, they divide condom brands into “snug fit”, “regular fit”. and “large fit”.
KYLE GETZ
Aw, I love “snug fit”. Like “This one’s gonna be cozy.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs] A girth of less than 4.7 inches needs a snug fit, 4.7 to 5.1 needs a regular fit, and 5.1 to 6 needs a large fit, and they say to do that measurement by taking either string and marking it or using a tailor’s tape around the thickest part of the shaft, wherever that is. For most men, that’s somewhere in the middle. And then they offer, you know, their choice of brands that fit each of those 3 categories. Last thing about sizing, and then you can tell us about technique: Reuters did a story back in 2009… yeah, April of 2009, where- covering a study by the Institute of Condom Consultancy…
KYLE GETZ
Oh sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
…where they asked 10,000 men in 25 countries to measure their penis and put the number into a database, and then tried to use that to, you know, figure out the proper distribution of condom sizes for manufacturers. Now, it’s of course self-reported.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s very problematic in the history of, like, penis sizes.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, um, they said, um, “According to this sample, The French say they need the largest condoms…” [TN: in Europe]
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, “… … while Greeks get by on smaller ones,” and I guess Germans are somewhere in the middle there. They also were using the survey sort of as a push poll to educate youngsters about the importance of effective contraception. This place is hilarious: they offer online condom size advice and they have, um, they have an annual fair – or at least they did back in ’09 – an annual fare called “Pimp Your Condom” [Kyle chuckles] in cooperation with the National AIDS Trust.
KYLE GETZ
Is that like… bejewel it and, like, add neon light effects, and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I guess. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
-leather interior?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs] Like, get yourself a mini fridge and, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Xzibit busts into your house and he’s like [Mike chuckles] “I’m here to pimp your condom!”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god. If you are interested in using that data at all – or, there are a couple of other data sources for this, but – you can go to myonecondoms.com. MyONE is a brand.
KYLE GETZ
My… o-n-e?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. But they have 10 different lengths and 9 different widths, so they have 90 different sizes of condom. And uh, they will introduce you to your size code, where you put in the length and girth of your penis, and they will give you a code, and that code is like, at least according to their methodology, the perfect condom for you.
KYLE GETZ
And then you can get them, it sounds like, delivered rather than having to go to the store and be like “Hi, I’m gonna fuck tonight.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Absolutely. And they say that, uh, your size code is always a secret to them. They will protect your size code.
KYLE GETZ
“To the death,” it says.
MIKE JOHNSON
To the death.
KYLE GETZ
They will murder anyone trying to access your size code.
MIKE JOHNSON
They also say that they are the first and only condoms FDA approved for anal.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know if that’s true or just their marketing department, but it’s on their website.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, that’s condom size, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Well, do you want me to talk about tips?
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s talk about the tips.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about the tips. All of the tips.
KYLE GETZ
So many tips.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh wait. Before that, in Patreon, I’m gonna to tell you some jokes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I’m also gonna talk to you about the totally failed experiment that was spray-on condoms.
KYLE GETZ
I feel like- I would have some thoughts on why that might have failed from the jump. [Mike laughs] Like, I feel like I already have some suggestions on that kind of creative idea.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna find out.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, okay. Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
Tips!
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna tell you-
MIKE JOHNSON
But just the tips.
KYLE GETZ
Just the tips.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I found this information on PinkNews in a 2018 article by Danny Polaris.
MIKE JOHNSON
I heart that site.
KYLE GETZ
First of all… I just copied down, throughout the course of the article, anytime they gave a suggestion or-
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
-even asked a question, just what they were. So we can go through them in order. Having condoms available shows to someone that you are active in your sexual health.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh! Yeah! Having a bunch of condoms around your place shows people you don’t actually need them. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I- I didn’t- I didn’t think this- I don’t know. I don’t know how I felt about this one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mmm. Mm. Mm.
KYLE GETZ
I think it’s one way to signal to people that you are active in your own sexual health but, like… I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I whipped out a bunch of condoms that we’re gonna play with on the Patreon segment and, like, I don’t know, what did that say to you?
KYLE GETZ
That… I don’t know, that you have condoms available? Which, that’s great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s, I think-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s all it says, I think. Like, you have them. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I think you may be more likely- If you have condoms around, you’re probably more likely to use condoms, I would guess, than if you don’t have condoms sitting around.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. They have to be there to be there.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
They have to be there for you to use them. [Mike chuckles] So I think it does say something. I think there are lots of ways to signal your sexual health. They also had, like, you know, “Make sure you have some in your nightstand, and in your wallet, and in this thing,” and it’s like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Not in your wallet! That will ruin them!
MIKE JOHNSON
Will it?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, how?
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause sittin’ on it, and mashing it around and, like-
KYLE GETZ
I thought they should be able to take a little bit of beating.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, yeah. I think the big thing there is that they, like, will wear out faster.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I-
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t- I don’t actually know if that’s true. Fuck, now I gotta look it up, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Son of a bitch. [typing sounds] “Is… it bad… to put… condoms… in your wallet?” Not socially, I mean medically, you whores. “The short and sweet answer to [the] question is that what you’ve heard is true! A condom stored in a wallet may be damaged by lots of action”.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm, now we gotta put on the Danity Kane song “Damaged” onto the playlist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah we do. Don’t know it.
KYLE GETZ
[singing to the tune of “Damaged”] My condom’s damaged, so damaged.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Don’t-
KYLE GETZ
[continues singing] Thought that I should let you know it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t put it in a wallet!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. And, I also think [chuckles] the idea of, like, havin- like, let’s just say in your pocket, like, ready to go- I don’t know. I think, because more people are having sex through apps, you kind of already know what the deal is before you get there. I think that was my biggest reaction to, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-“If they have condoms around, that means they’re active in their sexual health!” It’s, like… I don’t even know- Like, we talk about all this. It’s on your profile and you have conversations about this before you even get there, so I think more of this is happening up front and your profiles have this indication.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m with you, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So… Apparently, ribbed and studied condoms are designed to give an extra level of sensation to vaginas.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, if you’re using them with a cis male partner for anal then there might not be a point in, um, having anything fancy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I’ve literally never gotten anything out of a condom that had any kind of gimmick associated with it.
KYLE GETZ
Have you tried?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, what kind?
MIKE JOHNSON
I was married to a lady.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You forget that, maybe.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] No, no, I want you t- I was encouraging you to tell me about it.
KYLE GETZ
Like, ri-b-b-bed.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah? Did-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I mean, it’s the same for me. [makes an “I don’t know” sound]
KYLE GETZ
Did she prefer those?
MIKE JOHNSON
Ummm… no. It’s more of a novelty than anything. It’s like “Oh, we’re doing something naughty, because this one has ribs.”
KYLE GETZ
Oohh. “Let’s go crazy. Let’s get ribs tonight.” [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] And we were together for so long too that, like, we usually didn’t use them at all. It was mostly when she was on her period. Anyway…
KYLE GETZ
So even- That’s interesting. Even with a female partner, you would mostly use, like, picking the right time of the month to have sex instead of condoms?
MIKE JOHNSON
I- I mean, it, like-
KYLE GETZ
What was your, you know, pregnancy prevention?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Um-
KYLE GETZ
Kind of… repertoire?
MIKE JOHNSON
She was on birth control.
KYLE GETZ
Birth control.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, the pill. And so that was- That was the method, especially after we were, like, together together.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, mostly, condoms were for, like, preventing a mess.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. Oh! Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Huh! Is there- Does it feel like you’re getting a little bit more cagey around talking about your sexual… things you can do sexually with your ex-wife, or not?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ll talk about it. I don’t know. I’m mostly worried about talking about periods-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-because I know that that’s not, like- that’s not a thing that gay guys usually chat about.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But I think- I think all cis men should be more open to talking about periods more often, because I think it’s something we’re shielded from and then we don’t know. Like, I have twice sat in on a group of cis women talking about their periods, and two times it was maybe 15 minute conversations and then they, you know, like, apologized that I was sitting there. And it’s like “No, no, no,” like, I learned so much about periods and just what it’s like to have them. I think we, like, shield men from this concept that they have periods and that, like, that it sucks, and they’re the ones responsible for taking birth control, and that does things to their body that we just accept as normal.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You know? Like, I think there’s a lot that we just pretend like men don’t have to know, so I think it’s good to talk about.
MIKE JOHNSON
And not to mention- Well, no, I’m gonna mention it. [Kyle chuckles] The whole, like, “Periods are gross and disgusting,” and that’s built on misogyny.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s the exact same misogyny that says that “Yeah, you’re a gold star gay because you haven’t had sex with a vagina.”
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Congratu-fucking-lations.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dickface.
KYLE GETZ
This was for sure- We haven’t talked about it in a while, but this was for sure something I did when I first came out of, like, pretending like I thought “Oh, like, vaginas are gross.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, in addition to being, like, transphobic, that’s also misogynistic. Like, there’s a lot of issues that come along with that, and I’ve stopped doing that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Well, if you don’t want to hear this, then too bad. Part of the thing with wearing a condom when she was on her period is that it felt different. Like, there’s, um- There’s, uh- I mean, there’s stuff coming out of there because she’s on her period and it’s kind of gritty. It feels- On your dick it feels gritty. Like, there’s- It just does, and that’s not always super pleasant so adding a barrier there would help that difference in sensation. But then there’s also, like, sometimes you want to bang and not have to take a shower immediately right after. And, like- But if you got, like, blood and mucus all over your dick then you gotta jump in the shower. So, like, that’s an easy peasy way to just, like, not make a mess.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Interesting. I don’t think about condom use for, like, that purpose.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which, I mean, gay people, like, that is a possibility too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. For sure.
KYLE GETZ
Like, as much, you know-
MIKE JOHNSON
Been there. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. So it might be nice just as a preventative measure, just because you never know. Sometimes… What did that guy say? “Sometimes-”
MIKE JOHNSON
“Sometimes it comes with a Hershey Kiss.” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Sometimes there’s a little Hersey Kiss.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Um… more tips. Bottoms, if you have a lot of different sexual partners, keep a variety of different sizes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That seems smart.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, seems smart. I will say, okay, as a bottom, if the condom doesn’t fit right and it, like, crumples up so there’s, like, wrinkles in it, I don’t like the feeling of that. That feels really bad and gross, to me. Like, mm-mm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I would imagine. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay, so it’s also partia- But then- Okay, this is gonna sound judgy and I don’t want it to. Like, if you’re a bottom and you’re like “Pick a size, any size,” like, if you show up, doesn’t that make you seem slutty?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
I know, I shouldn’t be using that kind of judgment, and it should show a positive sign of-
MIKE JOHNSON
I think it shows that you’re responsibly slutty.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That would be one of my conce- I mean, compared to what I do, which is not use condoms, like, that’s the sluttiest thing you could do. So, like, I don’t know why I’m judging, like, “Hey, here’s all of my different varieties of condoms.” You’re right, it shows that you’re responsible. But I think that could be a fear that someone has, of, like, “If I have too many options, then it makes it look like I’m having sex every day and night,” when there’s nothing wrong with that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Kyle sighs] What if you could have, like, all your different size condoms but, like, on a keychain so that you could just, like, flip them over until you find the right one? [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Like fabric swatches? [Mike laughs] That you’re like “Do we want the light pink? Do we want the teal? Do we want the charcooch?” …That’s not the color.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Chartreuse”?
KYLE GETZ
Chartreuse. I almost said “charcuterie”, which is where I got trapped in the middle of that word.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, latex is the most common.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
It is possible to be allergic to latex…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…probably less so than is stated. But there are alternatives like polyurethane and polyisoprene.
MIKE JOHNSON
One of those is basically latex with different proteins in it so that it-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-doesn’t cause the allergic reaction.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Feels just like latex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
When using lube with condoms, water or silicone are the most common. Don’t use anything that has oil in it like lotion, Vaseline, or oil-based lubes with your latex condoms. Oil can damage latex and make them break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
You can generally use oil-based condoms with non-latex plastic condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
What kind of lube do you usually use?
MIKE JOHNSON
…Whatever? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You don’t have a preference?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, water-based lube. I use water-based lube for the most part, mostly because I find, um… well, a couple of things. First is that, like, it cleans out of stuff better. So, if it gets on your sheets, or your clothes, or whatever, it’s okay. Silicon… like- Silicone? Silicon. Silicone. Silicone lube, like, stains. Like, it’s there forever, [Kyle chuckles] and that bothers me.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I also think, like, silicone lasts longer?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But it isn’t as, like, I don’t know, slippery? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
I see silicone as being more slippery. I like silicone better. Like, water, it just seems like you have to keep reapplying and reapplying it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Which seems like a lot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Gives you a- Gives you an excuse to take a break. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, okay. I guess so. Um, it says water-based lubes dry up quickly so there is risk. You have to make sure you’re reapplying if that’s the case, because otherwise you would risk the condom breaking.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Make sure they’re not expired.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Like these [laughs] that I found.
KYLE GETZ
Well, but you all said that, and what I saw online is that most latex and polyurethane condoms will have an expiration date of about five years past the manufacturer date. So that- They last longer than I expected.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
I thought, like, “Oh, a year,” or something. But so maybe the condoms aren’t expired.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm! Hm.
KYLE GETZ
Whose responsibility is it to bring the condoms?
MIKE JOHNSON
Everyone.
KYLE GETZ
Everyone. Yeah, right? Usually it’s like, “Is it the tops because they’re the ones- like, because it’s the penetrative person? Is at the bottoms because they’re the one at more risk?”
MIKE JOHNSON
I have heard, like, it said that, like, it’s the top’s job to decide what lube because, like, the bottom doesn’t care, and I disagree with that.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
But that’s something that I have heard.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Lube, for me, is just something that, like, everyone has. Like, every gay person just has lube.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? [makes an “I don’t know” sound] I guess I do? [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I just thought that that one was most common, and then it’s like, the question is like… gotta see, like, “Do they have condoms?”, “Do they have poppers?”, “Do they have, like, other toys?” that you may want to use. Like, those are the question marks, but I thought the lube was pretty… common.
MIKE JOHNSON
What if we say it’s whoever’s hosting? That’s whose job it is.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. I like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because you’re already there. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Although, I do like, like… I don’t know. Yeah, I like that idea. The host, like, you can just pull out your array of sex things and then-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, your color swatches.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah, exactly. I get the idea of, like, “Bottoms have to do more work to prep,” so, like, then, like, “The top is bringing the gear.” I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I also- Like, this is another part that doesn’t come up because, like, I just talk about it in advance. So if someone’s like “I only use condoms,” like, “Okay, cool, do you have them then?” [chuckles] “Because I certainly don’t. So I think that’s something, these days, you can negotiate more easily upfront. And, lastly, if you have problems with premature ejaculation, condoms can make you last longer because they decrease sensitivity.
MIKE JOHNSON
Boy, howdy.
KYLE GETZ
That’s not the ringing endorsement of condoms that you would want it to be, but that’s at least one suggestion-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! I mean, it’s a-
KYLE GETZ
-for why you may use them.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s for sure a serious thing for a loooot of dudes and, like, yeah, that can absolutely help.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. What other advice do you have for condom use?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, no? No, I-
KYLE GETZ
“No.” [both laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t- I don’t know. I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
I did have this thought- Wait, no. I don’t wanna talk about it. Okay. I don’t really have a lot of tips, that’s for sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I… I think I should be using condoms more.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And… I don’t know, I tend to focus- I know that, because of my PrEP, I’m very likely covered for HIV.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I feel like I’ve gotten the host of STIs that you can. So, chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis, like, I- Like, that’s happened and I still… kind of take that risk.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve gotten syphilis, so now every STI test shows that it’s- Like, your whatever – numbers – stay above a certain rate, so it looks like it’s positive every time, so it has to be a thing every time. I’m like, “I’ve gotten syphilis in the past, so here’s, like-” So, syphilis is, like, a bigger thing. You have to get, like, a couple shots in the butt and that sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Titration. Your titrates are still there.
KYLE GETZ
Titrates.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
But there are other things that you can get through this. I mean, like everyone has HPV-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-so that seems like a bit of a wash. But, like, herpes, you can get other things-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-through this, that I’m just kind of, I think, ignoring. I think I’m just pretending that’s not there or something, that risk isn’t there, or I haven’t run into it yet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know. I should probably be using condoms more, especially if I’m in, like, a slutty mode.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and you- I mean, do you actively dislike them?
KYLE GETZ
Um… yeah, because, like, I want it in my butt.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-huh.
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s hot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And so, without it-
MIKE JOHNSON
You mean the load.
KYLE GETZ
The load, yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Not the condom. [chuckles] In fact, the condom is a specific barrier to me getting what I want.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, so that- And I think part of what has driven that as a fantasy has been porn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, porn, especially when, like, kind of the mainstream, like, porn sites- Like, they made these big announcements when they, like, “We go condom-free now!”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. “Bareback is happening with this special one,” because “Every other one, we have condoms in it.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a fairly recent thing, a fairly recent change in the grand history of porn, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does seem like in the past five years, like, all the- like, a lot of major studios have moved over to not using condoms or- And, when they do, it’s often tried to, like, hide it. Like, you put your hand around where the, like, the base of it is to try to hide the little ring there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I feel like they often try to hide that they’re using condoms even when they are, because they know that people don’t want that kind of porn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve even, like, watched porn with, like, a hookup or whatever, and, like, anytime we find someone with a condom we’re like “Next.” [Mike chuckles] Like, it- So it’s- I don’t know. You can’t blame- I know all the information and am still choosing to, so it’s not- You know, I know that I’m responsible for that decision. And also, I’ve seen this commonly in porn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Do you- Does it feel that way for you to?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It used to be just as you said, that, like, the bareback or raw dog porn would be like a special occasion kind of a thing, and now I don’t remember the last time I saw a condom in porn.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, the last 4 or 5 years feels about right. Everyone has gone to… the default is no condoms.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Shean Cody certainly did.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And others.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, yeah. That makes you wonder, like, what’s the impact then on condom usage, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. For sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, is it about- Is it about seeing condoms normalizes them and then makes you more likely to use them? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Well, I think that might be why we think that no gays, is because-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
You know, what do you have to measure against? If you talk to your friends about it, that’s one way, but not everyone does.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, what you see in porn is kind of the other option.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, how often are you comparing notes with your friends about whether you use condoms? Or, for us, it’s often just a joke. Like “Ahah, won’t use condoms.” Like, that- And then that’s kind of it. So, like, the message you’re getting from porn and from jokes [chuckles] within gay circles is that no one uses condoms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I could see why that could then influence you to think, like, “Oh, well no one’s using condoms,” so either that “I feel better about it,” or “I feel safer,” it’s more normalized. Like, I could see that happening for sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll say, like, I think I struggle not just with condoms but in any kind of sexual situation with being assertive enough to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I’m fortunate on the condom side that, like, I am not trying to… use a condom, so I’m not trying to assert a boundary or anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And part of me wonders if that’s also because that would then be another thing that I’d have to, like, bring up front or assert when someone comes over, and I’m really bad at doing that. So, pick anything else and I’m really bad at, like, asserting boundaries, or things that I like, or don’t like, and um… I don’t know. Especially in, like, a- It’s easier to do over, like, a text or in an app when I can, like- I don’t- I can end the conversation immediately whenever I want.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I feel like I’m a little bit more in control and, you know, distant, so I can assert myself. But I don’t feel comfortable- I’m really bad at asserting myself in person with someone else-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-at, like, a boundary or thing I don’t want.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s humans humaning though, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s a weird pressure to it, and that’s difficult to navigate.
KYLE GETZ
Have you, like, had to assert- Like, are you- How are you at asserting boundaries or things?
MIKE JOHNSON
Ugh, terrible.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
But getting better, I think. Mostly because, like, I’m really… Um. I’m not demisexual, Kyle! [Kyle chuckles] But typically like to save anal for, like, a repeat encounter. Like, and I’ve gotten to the point now where I will assert, like, “That’s a next time thing.”
KYLE GETZ
Are people receptive of that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mostly, yeah. Seem to be. Yeah, I don’t know. I think- My focus on, like, connection as part of sex is- like, lends itself to that conversation better… than, like, what I picture in my head as like the standard anonymous hookups kind of a situation where, like, there is no conversation, there’s no talking about it, it’s just, like, “You show up, and you bang, and you leave,” kind of a thing. So, I don’t know. I don’t know. The thing I wasn’t going to talk about earlier, and now I’m going to – and you’ll understand why I’m nervous about it in just a second – is the last four partners that I had insisted on condom use. Uh, three of them were trans dudes. And, like, it seems like every time I’ve hooked up with a trans guy condoms have been part of the scenario. And that’s just because their sexual health reasons are different than cis dudes. And, um, I just- I’ve noticed that. I have noticed that, like, if I’m gonna hook up with a trans guy, it’s likely a condom is gonna be involved and, like, just know that that’s a thing and bring one. And, you know, whatever. So, I was hesitating to want to talk about it for two reasons. One is, I don’t want to speak for, like, all trans dudes but, like, my personal sample size is what shows that. So, um- But then the other thing is, I’ve gotten into a couple of scraps online with people that, like, say that because I hook up with trans guys I must be bisexual, and I don’t want to invite that conversation again.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m not. I don’t identify that way. Shut your fuckin’ mouth.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And also, it’s very transphobic to say that hooking up with a- Hooking up with a man [chuckles] does not make you bisexual.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Hooking up with men makes you gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s right.
KYLE GETZ
And trans men are men.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s right. So, if that’s what you think, first, grow up second, second, like, I don’t want to hear it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, don’t bring that up. That makes sense. I think- The last thing I’ll say is, condom use is also- Like, this isn’t- I talked about, like, being able to assert yourself when this comes up. So, luckily, this doesn’t come up with me, but I see other people, like I’ll see posts on Reddit when talking about- like AskGayMen, and someone will be like “I asked a partner to use a condom and he didn’t,” or “I thought we were using a condom we didn’t,” and, like, that’s sexual assault.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that is a- Like, if you are placing a boundary on something – or a rule, whatever one it’s called – like, if you’re saying “This is what- I only will have sex with a condom,” and someone intentionally misleads, tricks, does something to have sex without one, like, that is- You can define it for yourself what you want, that could be bad sex for you, that could be, you know, whatever but, like, that is also sexual assault.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. It is. It absolutely is.
KYLE GETZ
I think more people need to realize that, mostly because, like, some people will, I think, dismiss that as just, like, “Oh, bad behavior,” or, like, “Oh, I don’t know. Like, how much should I care about this?” or, like, kind of let someone off the hook when they really shouldn’t Yeah. That’s a really shitty thing, to be told directly what someone is not- is off the table, and then someone doing it anyway.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s kind of the definit-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s very, very violating. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And yeah, if anyone’s gone through that, that really sucks and that is- You don’t deserve that. You should have- deserve to have people who respect what your boundaries are without having to push for them or, you know, have to deal with any of that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I think that’s really important when it comes to condom use, that if you are good at using them and if you are good at asserting yourself, you deserve to have that respected.
MIKE JOHNSON
Now did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
Ah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We did something?
KYLE GETZ
We did some stuff. [Mike laughs] We did stuff! Yeah! Like me with men, we did stuff.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah, well lubricated. Okay, um, so, should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break. [half-singing] This is the part where wah mah wah bah bah baow baow!
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, so are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first…
KYLE GETZ
Buy your tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Buy your tickets! We’re going to be in New York, like, day after tomorrow.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Very soon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, “dickbags”! Condoms!
KYLE GETZ
Aww! [both chuckle] You scumbags.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Affectionate.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, we are also going to be in Seattle on June 23rd, Chicago on July 29th, San Francisco on August 13th, LA on September 10th, and Houston on October 15th. So take a look at tickets at gayishpodcast.com/live and come see us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaaah! We would love to see you, except if you’re dumb. Uhh… our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We are on Instagram @gayishpodcast. We also have a Discord, a Facebook group, Spaces. Get all that info at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, leave us voicemails, we love them, especially if they’re your Gayest or Straightest or if they’re a question for Ma Johnson for Momsplaining.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Um, we have an email: gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
I almost just started singing Local Gay Bar Review.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, we can do that!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay. I didn’t know if you actually had one, but I just- That jingle jumped into my head.
MIKE JOHNSON
[singing] Local Gay Bar Review. [speaking] Okay, I want to talk to you about a place that we also went together, which is Somewhere Bar in Garden City, Idaho near Boise.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And uh, we went there.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, we went a couple times.
MIKE JOHNSON
There was a- Right at the door there was a person selling homemade jockstraps.
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s when I knew that we’d arrived home.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it was karaoke. We did karaoke.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
A boy from Grindr came there to meet with me.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was interesting. I really liked it. I think that, like, if I lived in the Boise area that would be my bar, as opposed to The Ball- The Balcony.
KYLE GETZ
Balcony. Yeah, I completely agree. I think it has a little bit more- Like, these days my bar of preference are like a little bit more lowkey, like not so much like you go to see and be seen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, a little bit chiller vibe. Places where you can just go, and sit down, and hang out if you want to. There are some pool tables there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like you said, they had karaoke.
MIKE JOHNSON
Visible lesbians.
KYLE GETZ
Visib- [both chuckle] Yeah, people of, like, different varieties. Um, I really enjoyed that place too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. 4 dildos!
KYLE GETZ
Ooh. Yeah, I agree.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Now Gayest & Straight?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, Gayest & Straight. Uh, do you want me to go first?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. The straightest thing about me this week: I had condoms! [both laugh] Which, I know that your research apparently says that I’m incorrect about that, but I did think-
KYLE GETZ
We’re talking stereotypes, so it fits.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I- Having condoms at the ready, available for playing with on camera. [both chuckle] Uh, straightest. Uhm the gayest thing about me this week is I am attending a fundraising gala coming up, and look at these gay-ass shoes. [Kyle gasps] I bought these gay-ass shoes, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Oooh, so sparkly!
MIKE JOHNSON
They are rhinestone shoes.
KYLE GETZ
I love these.
MIKE JOHNSON
Caviarr rhinestone shoes from Steve Madden.
KYLE GETZ
These are so cute.
MIKE JOHNSON
A friend of mine at work is involved in this organization called Plymouth Housing and they work on, like, the horrible housing shortage that is the greater Seattle area. But their annual fundraising event is called “Pop Some Tops” [Kyle laughs] so I’m going-
KYLE GETZ
You’re going as a top?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I’m going as- But, like, as the token gay of this, like, table of straight people. And the theme this year is Interstellar Discotheque.
KYLE GETZ
Oooh.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s why I decided to go for those shoes. I also got a blue sequined tuxedo jacket-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that I’m excited to show you next time for my gayest. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about you, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
My gayest is… Oh, I got the coveted double, like, the boyfriends checking me out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ooh.
KYLE GETZ
It was very clear. Like, I was walking way across the street, these dudes were walking away from me, they seemed to be together, one of them looked over, checked me out, looked back said, something to the other guy, the other guy looked over, check me out. So I was like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Nice.
KYLE GETZ
“You’re definitely checking me out,” and I felt so validated.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well done.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Good work, girl.
KYLE GETZ
Um, the straightest is the exact opposite happened when all the, like, hot shirtless runners are going by.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m like, you know, bending over, [Mike laughs] giving sultry looks or batting my eyelashes. None of them gave a shit about me, so they all must- They must have been straight if they didn’t care.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m sure [Kyle chuckles] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, also, like… I don’t know. One way to make me not horny is to have- like, go run. Like, [Kyle laughs] they’re busy. They’re doing other shit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It could just be that they’re in the middle of running. But they’re, like, running shirtless, so they’re clearly, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
On the prowl?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. They want a little bit of attention.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re inviting the gaze?
KYLE GETZ
They’re inviting the gays a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
Alright. A listener’s Gayest & Straightest this time comes from our Spaces. So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Spaces.
KYLE GETZ
So you can go to Spaces and we have a bunch of different Spaces within our Space. I don’t know how to- what they’re called. But anyway, in our main Space I asked for Gayest & Straightests and this one is from Brett. “Straightest: I rebuilt the ramp to my tool shed.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Ooo.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. Impressive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and “Gayest: I celebrated my third anniversary of being married to another dude.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw.
KYLE GETZ
Happy three year anniversary, Brett.
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy anniversary, mos.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That’s so sweet. Um, so, I think that is it.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s it! This has been Gayish. Buy your fuckin’ tickets, you dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Buy them please, [Mike laughs] lovely, lovely humans.
MIKE JOHNSON
And see you in New York in a couple of days.
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you to all the people who wear condoms. Good for you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Eh.
KYLE GETZ
Eh. Okay. [Mike laughs] Um, and thank you to our Super Gap Bridgers who I’m sure all use condoms: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.
MIKE JOHNSON
That is it. This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
See you in New York.
KYLE GETZ
See you in New York.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
MIKE JOHNSON
[airplane audible in the background] That plane, where’s it going? Do you think it’s going for condoms?
KYLE GETZ
It seems so close. Condom run.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 334 New York City
NYC has been gayer for longer than you realize. Then again, it’s not as gay as you’d expect. We cover George Chauncey, Liza Minnelli, Greenwich Village, sip-ins, and myths about gay New York.
In this episode: News- 1:39 || Main Topic (New York City)- 17:07 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:01:20
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour are available NOW for NYC, Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, and Houston. Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, Mike explains the sordid tale of how the Statue of Liberty might be a drag queen???? Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that would never debase itself by basing an entire episode on promoting its live show in New York City on June 4th at 7 pm at The Spot!
MIKE JOHNSON
…in Hell’s Kitchen. We would never!
KYLE GETZ
Never! [Mike chuckles] We would never.
MIKE JOHNSON
We would never!
KYLE GETZ
We genuinely are very excited to talk about New York City, not just for our own promotional gain.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, gayishpodcast.com/live. I’m Mike Johnson!
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, today…
KYLE GETZ
Today we’re gonna talk about [singing] New York.
MIKE JOHNSON
New York City?! …Get a rope, Kyle… [laughs] I love that face. When I can make you make that face, everything is amazing.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God! I need to stop rewarding your bad behavior with… with a n- It’s not- It’s just disappointed face, maybe. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
The beatings will continue until morale improves, just so you know.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Daddy-
KYLE GETZ
I’m excited.
MIKE JOHNSON
I gue- I don’t know. We’re gonna talk about New York City!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause, as you said…
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
…It’s just an attempt to sell more tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s a week and a half away.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a week and a half away! Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Y…es.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you sure?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, me neither.
KYLE GETZ
We will be. We’ll get ready by the time we show up there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first!
MIKE JOHNSON
…here’s the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Alright, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the first! [laughs] Uh, there’s data that was released by the Cultural Currents Institute, the CCI, and they claim to now know which state is the most closeted.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps]
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you have a guess?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, is it Utah? With all the Morm-
MIKE JOHNSON
It is Utah!
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god! Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! I win.
MIKE JOHNSON
Congratulations. Did you already know that?
KYLE GETZ
No, I didn’t. No! [Mike laughing] I guessed! Wh- Mike! I got it right, so you think I cheated.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
Mean.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t- I don’t know how to proces- I don’t-
KYLE GETZ
It’s okay, we can move on from that moment.
MIKE JOHNSON
I celebrate your success, Kyle. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I celebrate your success verbally and in accordance with law.
MIKE JOHNSON
They looked at Google search data from 2004 to 2023, and they tracked search terms such as “Am I gay?”, [laughs] “Am I lesbian?”, “Am I trans?”, “How to come out”, and “non-binary”. They looked at all 50 states and the District of Columbia, and Utah was number one in 3 out of those 5 terms that I just mentioned. The Republican-controlled state is home to the largest population of Mormons in the United States, has traditionally conservative social values, and apparently [chuckles] is very anxious about their sexual orientation. Um… So, the top 5 states for the search term “Am I gay?” were Utah, Iowa – where our lovely production assistant Derek is from – Indiana, West Virginia, and New Hampshire. Top 5 states for the search term “Am I lesbian?”: Utah, Connecticut, Kentucky, Washington…
KYLE GETZ
Hey!
MIKE JOHNSON
…and Colorado. Are there, like…
KYLE GETZ
We live in Washington.
MIKE JOHNSON
…tentative or unsure lesbians in Washington? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
I guess so!
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently so.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, I won’t go through the rest of them. But what I want to know is: what do you think about that as a methodology? Do you think, like, to- It seems, to me, a bridge too far to look at those search data and then say “most closeted”, like, that it means most closeted.
KYLE GETZ
I think I like this. I mean, I think search is like very- It’s like, “What personal things-” I mean, the other thing you could look at is porn habits.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
But, like, search is like a very personal…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god-
KYLE GETZ
…what you care about.
MIKE JOHNSON
I just got a horrible feeling in my stomach, of, like, if the universe could see my search term history… just from doing this show alone.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh! [Mike laughing] Yeah, you’d, like, be able to tell our topics every week, I think.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, yeah. So I- Yeah. I like this. I think it’s a smart tactic to use.
MIKE JOHNSON
They- The CCI explains that the data is relative, representing each term’s share of all Google searches for the region or time period being examined, and that the data does not simply reflect the reality that more people are using Google today than in 2024- or, in 2004. Don’t know how they’re corrected for that, but they claim to have. Anyway, yeah. News the second…
KYLE GETZ
…I was swallowing. So, yes, I’m prepared, actively listening to you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great! Excellent. Well, no, not excellent. This is really sad.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Saint Cloud, Florida had a Pride event that was scheduled for June the 10th and, last week, they cancelled it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah…
MIKE JOHNSON
They specifically said because of Florida legislation. They were afraid that the recent state laws passed, in the don’t-say-gay fuckface dickbag asshole DeSantis universe, might mean that their Pride festival would be illegal, that there would be harsh penalties imposed because they arguably are a venue that would permit children to view an “adult live performance” under the definitions in state law. And uh, so they just, like, canceled it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I really enjoy the comparisons that people make. Like, people will post pictures of a child at Hooters and be like… you think this is okay. Like, th- It is- There is no other reason other than “It is gay people doing this.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
When you, and other straight people, and people you’re attracted to do this, you don’t give a shit your kids are around it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, because we’re discussing perverts, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Exactly.
MIKE JOHNSON
And straight people are normal.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I would like to-
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] I don’t actually believe that, in case-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, no, no, no!
MIKE JOHNSON
In case this is somebody’s first episode. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, no, no that was the Mike sarcasm. Classic Mike sarcasm. I want to nominate to DeSantis as King Fuckface Dickbag Asshole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay. Are there other nominees? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I have none.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
He is my sole- the one person I’m pushing forward.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Okay. [spitefully] …Ron.
KYLE GETZ
Ron. Ron! [Mike laughs] Fuck you, Ron.
MIKE JOHNSON
God, fuck that guy.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, apparently there are other events in Florida that have been canceled recently. Um, there was a Pride-related festival in Tampa, Port Saint Lucie, and in Lake County. So, the thing is: they sort of implied, or said, even, that this wasn’t what they were going after, that they weren’t going to use this legislation, and everybody was like “Okay, we’ll take your word for it.” And that’s so fucking stupid because clearly they wanted to silence, and destroy, and hide gay people. And it’s working, and, like, it’s fucking fascism, Kyle. That’s what it is.
KYLE GETZ
Russia’s like “We’re just doing military drills on the border! We don’t want to do anything,” and everyone’s like “No you’re fucking not.” Like, we can see with our eyes what’s happening, and you can’t pretend that it’s not. We know what you’re gonna do next. You just- It’s- We’re in- We’re still in this new world of “What you say doesn’t matter,” and “Everything can be a lie,” and you have no repercussion for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It fuckin’ sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, fuckin’ sucks. Fuck you, Florida, and everywhere else that like that is happening.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, Tennessee, and Nebraska, and Texas, and you fucking name it. It’s happening.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dickbag fuckface assholes.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Ron!
MIKE JOHNSON
Ron. …News the last?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, news the last. We gotta get into this thing, Kyle. The Los Angeles Dodgers are in a world of shit now!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, if you’ve not been following it at all, the-
KYLE GETZ
The Dodgers played baseball.
MIKE JOHNSON
The LA Dodgers played baseball, and they have an annual Pride night, and they- It’s a rather popular Pride night, being in the Los Angeles area. There’s a lot of fuckin’ gays there.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. I have data on that, coming up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Excellent. Um, and they announced recently that they were going to be honoring the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence with their Community Heroes Award.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know that part of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So, when it was announced that they would be the recipients for all of the work that they do… And they do amazing work, in especially raising money for HIV/AIDS research and treatment and evangelizing things like PrEP. They just are really amazing. And if you’ve never seen them before or don’t know who they are, like, if you see a kabuki-faced bearded nun with a glitter beard, that’s more likely than not a Sister of Perpetual Indulgence.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, more on them later. But uh, so then a campaign started… not in California. [chuckles] The- Let’s see… what was the name of that? Catholic Vote started a call-in campaign saying that, quote, “The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are an anti-Catholic hate group which exists to desecrate and degrade the Catholic faith,” the idea being “You’re making fun of nuns by dressing up like women, you disgusting drag queens.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. When, actually, they’re raising money for charities and in the community and, like, doing more charity work than some actual Christians.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Again, this is more, quote, “For a revered, all-American institution like the Dodgers to bring the [Sisters] into the mainstream and honor them is reprehensible.” He went on and accused the Sisters of, quote, “taunting the women religious who serve the poor in Southern California and around the world.” Now, Sister Unity, who’s a founding member of the Los Angeles order, who was one of the people being honored at Dodger Stadium, she said, quote, “We are not anti-Catholic,” “Being anti-Catholic would be anti-people, and that’s not what we do.” Now, I don’t know if the Los Angeles Dodgers has a single fuckin’ gay person on their staff, because they announced last week that they were disinviting the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, not giving them this award, and they were no longer going to be part of the lineup for Pride night.
KYLE GETZ
That’s even bigger, knowing- I did not realize the award part. To, like, not only be like “Oh, you’re no longer invited,” but also “We were going to honor you with a community award that you earned from all the good work you do…” To go from that, to be like “Oh, no, you no longer get this award…” Like, they rec- They were goin- They thought they were great a second ago!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, yep. Yep, yep, yep. So, Senator Marco Rubio got involved. See? He could be another nominee…
KYLE GETZ
A second nominee!
MIKE JOHNSON
…for King Dickbag Fuckfaced Asshole. Also from Florida.
KYLE GETZ
Rubio… Ron. Hmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hmm. Ron Rubio?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I’m just noticing a pattern.
MIKE JOHNSON
Umm… He said, quote, “Do you believe that the Los Angeles Dodgers are being ‘inclusive and welcoming to everyone’ by giving an award to a group of gay and transgender drag performers that intentionally mocks and degrades Christians[?]” Thing is, you don’t fucking know. You don’t fucking understand. And the LA Dodgers fucking caved to this, like, brouhaha. So, then, the American Civil Liberties Union blasted the Dodgers on Twitter, saying that they would pull out of Pride Night if the club did not reverse course. LA County Supervisor Lindsey Horvath vowed to do the same. LA City Council Member Eunisses Hernandez, whose district includes Dodger Stadium, condemned the move. And then, on Thursday, the LA LGBT Center issued an ultimatum: readmit the Sisters or cancel Pride Night altogether. The Dodgers organization did not respond as quickly as they would have liked, so then the LA LGBT Center tweeted… on Friday night- no, Thursday night, this: “As a longstanding partner of the [LA] Dodgers, we are very disappointed in their decision to rescind their invitation to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence to be honored at the 10th annual LGBTQ+ Pride Night. As a result and in solidarity with our community, LA Pride will not be participating in this year’s Dodgers Pride [Event Night]…” “…Pride Night event.” “Pride is a fight for equality and inclusion for the entire LGBTQ+ community and we’re not going to stop now. Let’s make this year’s Pride celebration louder than ever.” I think that’s fucking magical.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, of course, now there’re all of these conversations about, like, “All they really wanted was our money, and our ticket sales, and for us to buy a bunch of beer at the game. They don’t actually give a fuck about gay rights because, if they did, they would know that this is not a good look…” [chuckles] “…and not a good move.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s the year- Like, I’m coming around a little bit on the value of corporate Pride. I think, like, someone mentioned, like, I live in a small city and when Target puts up its fucking rainbow gear it makes me happy, because I get to see it for the first time. So if they’re doing it for money, okay, but also, I get to see it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Um- God, what’s her name?
KYLE GETZ
Rachael?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
From the, uh, Queer Jews episode?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes. So I’m like “Okay, there is value in doing it,” but also, I think- I love this because it’s- It’s not just do that, and get our money. Like, let’s hold you accountable. And, especially right now, you have to include trans people, you have to include drag queens, that part is not negotiable.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
You don’t get to include part of our community and we- Because we are the more gay- Being gay white men, we are more accepted in the community, and we have to say “No, this won’t- We will not participate in this if you don’t include trans people.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely. Also, I just want to point out, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence do not consider themselves drag queens. Labeling them as drag queens is just flat fuckin’ wrong. And- Oh, God, where’d the-
KYLE GETZ
It does fall under this, like, attack on anyone doing anything gender-nonconforming these days.
MIKE JOHNSON
But apparently, like, it’s fine to, like- Everybody- Fuckin’ straight people loved Tootsie and fucking loved Mrs. Doubtfire, but apparently a dude with a beard dresses up like a nun and, like, raises money for AIDS and they’re the problem.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You fuckin’ dickbag asshole fuckfaces. Kyle, God dammit, now I’m pissed off! I’m so fucking pissed off I’m not even going to enjoy the rest of this episode.
KYLE GETZ
Ah, just do this episode angry.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, nah, I’m over it now. I’m good now. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Okay. I wrote down- Our nominees for dickbag fuckface assholes are: Ron…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…Rubio, and America. [chuckles] [Mike laughs] Those are the three we got so far, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Amerigo Vespucci?
KYLE GETZ
Yes! [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, I’m very interested to see where this goes because the campaign to get them to reverse that decision is escalating and it is this weird mixture of things that I just am fascinated by. What do you think is gonna happen? Are they gonna- Will the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence appear at next week’s Pride Night event?
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna be surprisingly optimistic for me. I’m gonna say “Yes, they’re gonna reverse their decision.” They’re gonna invite them and be like “Whoopsies!” because they want to do a Pride Night. What do you think?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think- I- I don’t know. I’m on the fence.
KYLE GETZ
You have to decide, yes or no. What do you say?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, I’m gonna- I’m gonna say “No.” I think, when you’ve made a decision like that, you have to double down, and you risk alienating your non-queer audience.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Which is their- [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is…
KYLE GETZ
I.e. their audience.
MIKE JOHNSON
…most of the audience. So I-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. I could see that.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’ll see. We’ll see.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, we’ll see.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news! Speaking of people we’ll see about… [both chuckle] we’ll see how we feel about these people. No, that’s mean. I support and love these new Patreon members. First, Kobie Gordon. “Kobie” is spelled with a K. I feel like that would be important to Kobie.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Kobe”?
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like “Kobe Bryant” or “Kobe beef”?
KYLE GETZ
K-O-B-I-E.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ohhh.
KYLE GETZ
No, sorry, Ko-bee-ee-ay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ko-bee-ay. That’s-
KYLE GETZ
Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, Gordon Myhr…
MIKE JOHNSON
“Gordon Meyer”?
KYLE GETZ
Bryan- What did I say?
MIKE JOHNSON
Sounds like an author, or a famous chef, or something.
KYLE GETZ
I was reading the wrong thing. Brian Myhr… [saying it like “my-ERR”] Myhr? [like “murr”] Meyer. Myhr. [like “ma-HUR”] Maheer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Marr?
KYLE GETZ
Maybe!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Hi Bryan! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Uh… Naresule? [like “nar-ESS-ewl”] …Naresule? No, there’s an accent. Naresule. [like “nar-ESS-ewl-ay”]
MIKE JOHNSON
Nailed it.
KYLE GETZ
Doing so good. …And Brad Shreve. [Mike laughs] And I know we’ve had him on. Uh, listen to Brad Shreve’s Spotlight. But, uh, thanks, Brad. I got at least one name right this week. Thank you so much to all our new Patreon members. If you want to get episodes a day early and ad free, they come out every Wednesday for Patreon members. And then, also, at different levels you get bonus episodes, content, merch, good shit. Go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
And half off your live show tickets, that you’re gonna buy right now, you fucker. And if you don’t want to be number 4 on our list of dickbag fuckface asshole nominees, buy your tickets now. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yes, absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayishpodcast.com/live.
KYLE GETZ
Do you wanna talk about New York?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about New York City, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Why did you say it with a bit of… sigh in your voice?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, partially, it’s because we are going to be live in New York City at The Spot, in Hell’s Kitchen, next weekend.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, weekend after next. In like 8 days after this posts, or whatever. I didn’t realize until right this very second talking to you about it, we might shit on New York and fuck something up real bad and be… hated.
KYLE GETZ
And then show up and be like “Hey…”
MIKE JOHNSON
And then [laughs] show up and say “Here we are!”
KYLE GETZ
Well, it’s better than, like- At least we’re not doing it in front of them. Like, that’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, that’s true.
KYLE GETZ
That’s my, like- To sit in front of people- I’m gonna try to talk about- We know our topic, we’re not gonna reveal it, per usual.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah, I almost just said it. God, keep me under control, Kyle. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Keep that shit in. Keep it cool. Um, but I’m gonna talk about shit that happened in New York, and New York people might be like “I know New York more than you.” So I don’t know, I’m glad at least we’re doing it a couple episodes [chuckles] out before our show. [Mike chuckles] Um, so I’m gonna start…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Why don’t you start, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
…by telling you about how gay New York is.
MIKE JOHNSON
How gay is New York?
KYLE GETZ
“How gay is New York?” That was the question I asked myself late one night-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-as I was prepping for this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And-
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you make up some answers?
KYLE GETZ
And [Mike laughs] I just guessed that- Sure. My answer was 7.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
It’s 7 gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
7 gays.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. [Mike chuckles] Umm, no, I actually looked at data. The Williams Institute, which I mentioned before, and I actually looked up-
MIKE JOHNSON
Serena?
KYLE GETZ
Serena Williams’ Institute that studies New York. [Mike laughs] It’s a really weird system she has set up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Venus loves LA. I don’t know. Coast v. Coast. No. Uh, Williams Institute is a public policy research institute based in the UCLA School of Law, focused on sexual orientation and gender identity issues. They’re ones that always show up with great data. So they’re, like, a reputable source.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, they released a brief called “LGBT Adults in Large US Metropolitan Areas” in March 2021. Their data was collected from 2012 to 2017, and they used data from the Gallup Daily Tracking survey where people would ask about people’s identities. And so, this is, in that survey, how many people – and then they figured out the math, percentage of people – that identify as gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay!
KYLE GETZ
Or, LGBT. Sorry. Um, so I have it based on pure, like, number of people and percentage of gays.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, number 1 gayest city in terms of size, actual si- the raaaaw size…
MIKE JOHNSON
Raw. New York City.
KYLE GETZ
…New York City.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because it’s, like, the biggest city in the United States by such a wide margin, any, like, normal statistical thing… it’s gonna be the most.
KYLE GETZ
It’s gonna be New York for sure. For sure. And these are also metro areas, so this includes New York, Newark, Jersey City… like, that broader metro area.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
All of these are the bigger metro area. So yep, New York. And yeah, it is- They estimate 700,000 gays there. LGBT people. I keep saying “gays” instead.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fine. Um, and the next one is…
MIKE JOHNSON
Los Angeles?
KYLE GETZ
Yep! LA is number 2. So, New York Ci-
MIKE JOHNSON
We see you, LA!
KYLE GETZ
Hey, you’re there too.
MIKE JOHNSON
How many of you could fit into Dodger Stadium? [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
All 520,000 of you? So New York’s 700, LA 520,000. That is quite a bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Creepin’ up there, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But, like, you’re right that New York is, like, far and away. So, by one measure, it’s the gayest place. Um, just going down the list, do you have guesses for 3, 4, and 5?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, Chicago-
KYLE GETZ
That’s 3.
MIKE JOHNSON
-Houston… Um…
KYLE GETZ
No Houston.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or Dallas? No. I don’t know. Oh, Atlanta! I said- I thought maybe Atlanta.
KYLE GETZ
No Atlanta. Um, 3 in Chicago, 4 is San Francisco, and 5 is Miami.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah. Fucking San Francisco.
KYLE GETZ
Fuckin’ San Francisco. I looked at where Houston was because that’s where I’m from. That is number 11.
MIKE JOHNSON
You basically just named our tour stops. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I did. Yep. And number 12 is Seattle.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s here.
KYLE GETZ
That’s where we live.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Which is why I threw that in. Okay, so by percentage though, this, I think, is the more accurate way to look at things, the percentage. It’s not just about volume of gays, [chuckles] it’s about the proportion of them. Um, and the highest, number 1 based on percentage, is…
MIKE JOHNSON
Salt Lake City, Utah!
KYLE GETZ
No…
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve heard that before though.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I don’t know if it’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently it’s not true!
KYLE GETZ
Well, according to this one at least, number 1 is San Francisco-
MIKE JOHNSON
Aww!
KYLE GETZ
-with 6.7%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why you gotta be a stereotype of yourself, San Francisco? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
San Francisco is one of two cities that shows up in the top 5 list for both of these.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, San Francisco is pretty fuckin’ gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, number 2 is Portland. Number 3-
MIKE JOHNSON
Portland, Oregon?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, I presumed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
It has to be.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because there’s two of ‘em.
KYLE GETZ
There is. It’s not gonna be the other one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
There’s no way.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s in Maine.
KYLE GETZ
It’s not gonna be that.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
There’s- [chuckles] There’s no way it’s that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I’ve been to Portland. I get it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That one’s super-duper gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, Austin is number 3.
MIKE JOHNSON
No… Alright, alright. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I’m reading you the data, Mike. You can’t say “No,” to data.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think that Austin- I believe that, actually, for the same reason that I keep saying “Atlanta” over and over again, is it has a reputation as being, like, where all of the fun people in Texas go to get away from the rest of Texas.
KYLE GETZ
Yyyes, yes, absolutely. That’s, like- I keep saying, like, if I ever move back to Texas, that’s the one place I would be comfortable living.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the only place I’d be comfortable living.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Great.
KYLE GETZ
Number 4 is Seattle!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yay!
KYLE GETZ
That’s us.
MIKE JOHNSON
That checks out. I mean, it’s- It’s 100%, in this room. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, they didn’t narrow it down to just this studio where we’re recording, [Mike laughs] otherwise we would have been number 1 at 100% gays. Um, and number 5 is LA.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, nowhere on that list did New York appear.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, New York is number 21-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wwwwow.
KYLE GETZ
-on the list, with 4.5%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is it all of the, like, finance bros? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s what- I was thinking, like- Like Austin, you were saying, like… queer people, and fun people, are like “I should move there,” whereas New York, like, a lot of people are like “I want to move to New York.” So I wondered if that was- it has a bigger- I mean, San Francisco, that’s like “Oh, I can deffo be gay there,” you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, Portland is like-
MIKE JOHNSON
In the immortal words of Liza Minnelli, “If I can make it there, [I can] make it anywhere.”
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
I also don’t think that she’s the one that wrote that song. She just…
KYLE GETZ
Oh. She just sang it?
MIKE JOHNSON
…sang it. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I always hate when you- like, we give characters on TV show the credit. Like, no, a writer wrote that. You don’t know which-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, anyway, so-
MIKE JOHNSON
Start spreadin’ the news.
KYLE GETZ
Start spreading your legs. Um, [Mike chuckles] New York is number 1 gay or number 21 gay. So, I mean, percentagewise, not as gay as I thought.
MIKE JOHNSON
Get your shit together, New York! No, I- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, get- No, no, no, you’re right. Double the people need to come out. No, not double, but at least- We need to increase conversion therapy, and by that I mean converting people to gay. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god, Kyle, before somebody flips the fuck out at us in the hate mail section…!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
…It was Liza Minnelli!
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
The theme from New York, New York is the theme song from the Martin Scorsese film “New York, New York” 1977.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was written for and performed in the film by Liza Minnelli!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, no way!
MIKE JOHNSON
I thought-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, good for her!
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause Sinatra also had a hit with it, didn’t he? Yeah, in ’79 Sinatra recorded it but- and it became associated with him, but he stole it from Liza Minnelli. Good thing he’s dead. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Fuck you, dead guy!
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright. Anyway, [Kyle chuckles] you know what song I’m talking about, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, I didn’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
I think that’s one of those songs like every fuckin’ person in the world knows it, or, better.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. Umm, I’m gonna talk to you about the history of gay people in New York, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Wow, I’m gonna buckle in and shut the fuck up. This is gonna be long.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright… Thank you. Um, I- [laughs] So I have, in the Gayish library, this book, and I’m so fucking excited to read the rest of it, but this book is “Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World” by George Chauncey.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I’m glad you physically picked it up and showed it to me. That helps, on this podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
I can’t help it, Kyle. [Kyle chuckles] I would do this if the microphone weren’t here.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I’m trying to be me.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Eh, have you tried being better? [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
This book was written in 1994, so it is almost 30 years old.
KYLE GETZ
Woooow.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it is a treasure trove of a bunch of shit about gay culture, not just in New York but in general, that I’m just- I’m fascinated. I’m gonna read the whole thing. I almost didn’t get the news done today because I was reading this book instead of- Anyway, fucking love it. I’m gonna start with a quote. Quote- And this is not- It’s in Chauncey book but it’s not Chaun- It’s not a quote of him, it’s a quote in the book.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Here we go. Quote, “These men… act effeminately; most of them are painted and powdered; they are called Princess this and Lady So and So and the Dutchess of Marlboro, and get up and sing as women, and dance; ape the female character; call each other sisters and take people out for immoral purposes. I have had these propositions made to me, and made repeatedly.” That was a visitor who- Sorry, that was an investigator visiting Columbia Hall, also known as “Paresis Hall”, at 5th and Bowery in New York City in what year?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, uh, 1965.
MIKE JOHNSON
1899.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, Columbia Hall, or Paresis Hall, was known as, quote, “The principal resort in New York for degenerates,” and-
KYLE GETZ
That would sh- I did a little bit of- I’ll tell you a little bit of history too, but “degenerates” showed up a lot.
MIKE JOHNSON
A loooot, yeah. Yeah. Also, I was very surprised at how early the word “fairy” was associated with gay men specifically in New York City.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but the thing is, 1899, there was, like… “That’s a known place for the gays.” Like, an entire fucking hall, an entire neighborhood. And that bucks a whole bunch of things that we think about Stonewall, which, I’m gonna talk about Stonewall later. Um, but it’s funny, in the 1870s there was a guide for Latin American businessman and it was published, uh, that showed different kinds of people that you’d run across in SoHo. Specifically, there’s a cartoon that I’ll show you and then we’ll post it to social media or whatever. And uh, it shows a dude at the intersection of Broadway and Houston and includes, in the upper right hand corner, a fairy. [Kyle chuckles] He’s wearing a tiny-ass hat, he’s delicately holding a cane, has a very distinctive limp wrist.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, look at that wrist, it’s so fucking gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But the thing is… that was a fairy, and that’s what they were called in 1870.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s a brochure, like, showing Latin American businessman what to look out for in that neighborhood, Broadway and Houston Street.
KYLE GETZ
“Look at that faggot.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
I’m reminded of the phrase “I would dial the-” “Would he dial a phone with a pencil?” [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
“Dial a phone with a pencil,” yes.
KYLE GETZ
That wrist would definitely use a pencil to dial a phone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely. It’s really interesting to me, I think, that the idea that gay is a new thing, that we sprung out of the ground at Stonewall and didn’t exist- And we’ve talked about that on the show a bajillion times, but nowhere is that more apparent and obvious than in New York City. Some of that is just a function of the size of the city, like we were saying earlier talking about statistics. Like, get any city of sufficient size and that’s where the shit happens, and that’s absolutely true when it comes to gay culture. So, the gayborhood, the original gayborhood in New York City, was- is a place called “Bowery”, and that has largely not- It’s the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and they don’t really call it that anymore, although there is Bowery Street. It’s “the Lower East Side”, is what it gets called, apparently. If I’m wrong, @ me. I would like to know. And then- But by the 1920s there were 3 gay villages in New York City. There was The Village – Greenwich Village – there was Harlem, and Time Square. All 3 were considered havens for homosexuals. There were bars that catered to them, they had these big balls for entering gay society. And I’m gonna talk more in the section about Stonewall about, like, myths about what life was like before Stonewall. But, uh, it’s- It’s, uh- There’s this huge history of pretty- what we would consider normal gay life, way fuckin’ back in the day. Right? 1870s, 1880s, 1890s, all happening there in New York City. And there’s a bunch of theories about, like, what happened with all of that history because it has been sort of erased. And he points out, George Chauncey points out, that really it was prohibition that really associated drinking culture with gay people as being, like, a thing that we need to stop them from hanging out. That’s when you see all of these laws start to pop up about “You can’t have gay bars.” That allows the mafia to then take over and start serving gay people to- They wanted our money. The Great Depression also had a big impact, but then also the Lavender Scare. So World War II ends, a bunch of gays come back from being in the military, settle in a few places, New York City and San Francisco being two really big examples of that, and then there is a backlash against that that leads to McCarthyism and the Lavender Scare in the 50s, and that really demonizes gay people and they become more explicitly the target of legal action and things like raids and, like, ruining people’s lives, etc. But New York City really was the sort of battleground for that. Yeah, any- I think I’ll pause there, I guess. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! Um, so you talked about one of the battlegrounds, like, in New York, being bars. So I’m gonna talk about a really specific example of that… uh, a protest, coming up, and that’s the gay sip-ins that happened in New York.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sip-ins!
KYLE GETZ
Sip-ins. Um… that pulls from the Civil Rights Movement-
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
-using inspiration from that to protest. So, most of this is from a history.com article by Thaddeus Morgan, came out in 2018. The subtitle for the article is: “In 1966, three men walked into a bar, stated they were gay and ordered drinks. When they were denied service, a movement began.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
And so, if this hadn’t happened, Stonewall might not have happened.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
And I’ll get there. So, like you said, gays were regularly refused service at bars. The New York State Liquor Authority based service requirements on what was called “orderly conduct”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And gays- Being gay was considered “disorderly conduct”. So if you-
MIKE JOHNSON
God, that’s such a tool- Like, a tool that gets used by oppressors all the time is just label something- Again, like, say that it’s “decency”, or say that it’s “normalcy”, or say that it’s… whatever vague fucking word you want to use, and then you can totally discriminate against people on the basis of torturing that word to mean whatever you want it to mean.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. See the news section that you just did.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, so-
MIKE JOHNSON
Dickbag fuckface assholes.
KYLE GETZ
Right?
MIKE JOHNSON
I told you I was gonna be mad the whole episode. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. See? Number 1, Ron.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ron.
KYLE GETZ
So- And that could include even just- I wrote it down. Intimate encounters between two men was considered “disorderly”. Anything that made you look gay, basically.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
This is partially because a lot of the things that you talked about with prohibition and there was also, specifically in New York, Mayor Robert F. Wagner Jr. We hate him. The World’s Fair was in 1964 so he wanted to clean up New York City for the visitors, and that meant getting rid of gays, shutting down gay establishments-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-increasing the police raids on gay bars… And so the sip-in was spring of 1966, and the members that- There were three people: Dick… Of course one of the first guys that did a sip-in was named “Dick”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, Dick Lick…? no, “Leitsch”… [Mike chuckles] was the leader of the New York chapter of the Mattachine Society.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. We know them.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, yep, yep. Uh, and two other members, which, in the history.com article, it said that was Craig Rodwell… Rodwell.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oo, my god.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus Christ, Craig. Um, and Randy Wicker. Wikipedia said Craig Rodwell and John Timmons.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm.
KYLE GETZ
I guess I believe history.com as a more reputable source? So I don’t know. But it’s weird that, like… a thing happened, it was a person, it was one person, it was one of them-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-but it’s written down as two different people. Like, how do we not- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Anyway, they drew from the civil rights movement. So they went into- They went bar to bar looking for a place that would deny them service.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, the first one-
MIKE JOHNSON
Good work. Good work, gays.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [Mike chuckles] …Because they wanted to specifically challenge this rule. So they went to one bar that, when reporters showed up, the bar closed down.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckling] Or maybe it was just an excuse to get fucked up. [Kyle laughs] Like, it’s a bar crawl, y’all.
KYLE GETZ
“Gimme shots!” [Mike laughs] Yeah, they did three shots at each bar and were like- [chuckles] Yeah, it was Craig Rodwell’s birthday. [Mike laughs] It wasn’t really real, yeah. No, so the first one, when they saw reporters, closed down. They just- Instead of not serving them they just closed. Uh, the next two served them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Even though they said they were gay.
KYLE GETZ
Um, the third one was Julius’ which was apparently a sure bet to get rejected because just a few days earlier it had been raided, so they were on particularly high alert. Apparently there is a sign in the window. Like, they showed signs in windows, I guess, when this happened. “This is a raided premises,” is what it said.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
And it says the NYPD, like- I don’t know. Maybe th- I didn’t read about that. Maybe they just, like, fuckin’ hung signs up after they raided it?
MIKE JOHNSON
So- Okay, more evidence this was just a birthday party bar crawl then, ‘cause, like, you should have started there.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. [Mike chuckles] I don’t know- Yeah, I don’t know why- I don’t know their thinking process. They were like “We want to get fucked up before we do this thing.” [Mike laughs] Yeah. I don’t know. Apparently the- Um, Julius’ has been raided- Julius’ was raided and a clergyman was arrested for soliciting sex. That’s what I wrote down. Who knows what’s actually true. Maybe they- You can invent charges when you raid shit, so…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
After they were denied service, that’s when the news covers. The New York Times and The Village Voice, which, Village Voice is like the prominent gay newspaper, like maybe historically the most famous gay newspaper of all time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Although, apparently they’re not doing it anymore.
KYLE GETZ
I heard that. Yeah, I thought it- Yeah. Anyway, The New York Times- The headline for the article was “3 DEVIATES INVITE EXCLUSION BY BARS”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Feels a little judgy, [chuckles] If I have to pinpoint one piece of criticism. Feels a little judgy.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Deviants”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. “Deviates”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, “deviates”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that a word?
KYLE GETZ
I- You know, New York Times… Probably, at that time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Probably, yeah. Okay. Alright.
KYLE GETZ
Um, the Commission on Human Rights got involved, they maybe went to court? I wasn’t clear on that part. But the State Liquor Authority, as a result of this, decided that they no longer viewed being gay as “disorderly”. And, apparently, there was an immediate change after that. Like, spring of ‘66, all of a sudden, things changed for gay people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh.
KYLE GETZ
There were less police raids-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s before Stonewall.
KYLE GETZ
That’s before Stonewall.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Alright, go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, and that’s part of why. So, as a result of this, and quite immediately, things got better for them. There were less police raids, bars were less likely to lose their license for serving gay people, and, because of that progress that gay people made during ‘66, they started then to expect that progress.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
If they were still in the times where they were getting raided all the time, maybe Stonewall wouldn’t have stood out as much but, because they had made this forward progress, then when Stonewall happened they were like “Fuck you, no. We’re not going- We’re not doing this.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And there are a lot of other… things that happened that caused Stonewall to happen. Um, but this is one of those contributing factors. Gay people were fuckin’ over it.
MIKE JOHNSON
It reminds me of all these companies that are trying to force their workers back into the office.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, the pandemic, I worked from home and it was fine. Fuck you!
KYLE GETZ
“You know how you were okay with me working from home when it was your only option? Look, I can keep doing it.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, nowadays, Julius’… [chuckles] Julius’ claims- its website claims that it’s New York’s oldest gay bar and Greenwich Village is oldest bar. And, it holds a monthly party called “Mattachine”. So, when I went to the website, it had, like, the promotion for the Mattachine event.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is it gonna be happening when we’re in town?
KYLE GETZ
That’s a great question, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
We should go.
KYLE GETZ
We should go, if it’s happening.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. We should also run down to Christopher Street and go to the Stonewall Inn, even though-
KYLE GETZ
We should-
MIKE JOHNSON
-I asked them if we could do our show there and they did not respond to me.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm. They were busy rioting.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Um, no, we sh- I have not been to Stonewall. We should definitely go there while we’re there.
MIKE JOHNSON
I went there with my ex. It was neat. It felt historic… ‘cause it is.
KYLE GETZ
It should be. [Mike laughs] Yeah, it should have! That’s it. That’s- [chuckles] Yeah. So those are the sip-ins.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks for- Thanks for [chuckling] that birthday party pub crawl that turned into a riot.
KYLE GETZ
…That turned litigious? [chuckles] Like most good booze crawls.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, you talk about that leading up to Stonewall, and this book by Chauncey… he… he has a lot of things to say about the myths of gay stuff before Stonewall. And he wants to explore a little bit, like, where this narrative, this idea – it’s not even a narrative, just this idea – comes from, that, like, we didn’t exist before Stonewall.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And he touches on three myths. Oh, I wrote in my notes “We think of Stonewall as being the start, but for New York it’s barely the middle.”
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, so the first is the myth of isolation, which he says is the myth that we have that anti-gay hostility – again, before Stonewall – anti-gay hostility prevented the development of an extensive gay subculture and forced gay men to lead solitary lives. This myth is basically “Gay men weren’t gathering together, so there was no ‘there’ there for developing culture,” and that’s absolutely not true. Like I said before, Bowery, and by the 1920s Greenwich Village, Harlem, Times Square… there were, in New York, big pockets of gays hanging out altogether. They had a culture, they had their own manner of dress and way of speaking, and a lot of that has been lost for reasons that I’m gonna go into in a little bit. But, like, that’s just not true. So if you have it in your head that, like, gay history doesn’t exist because we didn’t have community… we absolutely did in several places in New York City. Also, talking about, like, the different ways that they talked, “coming out” did not mean out of the closet. That’s a relatively new connotation of it. In New York slang in the 20s, it was about code-switching more than anything. Um, you would “come out” into gay society at a big ball. They would throw these big dances, and rent ballrooms, and they would have these ceremonies and, like, there were even certificates that I saw. There’s a certificate in here of, like, “Welcome to the gay world.”
KYLE GETZ
Aww.
MIKE JOHNSON
And like a graduation diploma for coming out.
KYLE GETZ
That’s cute!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Why don’t we have those today?
MIKE JOHNSON
We absolutely should, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But yeah, apparently in the 1930s it was totally a thing. But they didn’t say “come out of the closet”, they said “come out into society”. But one thing that they did say about, like, your status of outness was this whole thing about, again, code-switching. So you would “wear your hair up”, that’s what they would say, and that meant to like butch it up and be straight so that you could pass in straight society. And then you would “Let your hair down,” and that’s sort of- We know that phrase for other reasons but, to gays in New York in the 20s, that meant to let yourself be as gay as you want to. And then-
KYLE GETZ
You’re right, that is code-switching. That’s crazy that we just talked about that.
MIKE JOHNSON
And also slang in 20s gay New York was – to signal to other men that you were gay in public – was to drop hairpins. So, you would say, like, “Kyle, I was on the bus the other day and I was totally dropping hairpins,” and that was hair up, hair down. “Dropping hairpins” was to subtly hint to somebody that you are gay.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, anyway, so that’s the myth of isolation. The second is the myth of invisibility, and that’s the idea that even if a gay world did exist, it was kept invisible and thus remained difficult for isolated gay men to find. Not true in New York. Gay men were out and visible, they were known in the newspapers for wearing red ties and having bleached hair. And-
KYLE GETZ
Wow, bleached as a gay stereotype existed long before it did these modern times.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was around, uh, 1918.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, in fact, one New Yorker said in an interview in the New York Times in 1918, quote, “Our streets and beaches are overrun by . . . fairies.” [Kyle chuckles] We were not invisible, at least not in New York. That’s just a myth.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, I think of- Visibility then creates a backlash, which then creates our push for rights. Like, that’s the myth that I believe, that is not true. That’s interesting that that is not the process that it went through.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Last is the myth of internalization, this is the “internalized homophobia” internalization. The myth of internalization is that gay men – this is a quote – “Gay men uncritically internalize the dominant cultures view of them as sick, perverted, and immoral, and that their self-hatred led them to accept the policing of their lives rather than resist it?” At least in New York, absolutely untrue. As early as the 1890s, there were gay New Yorkers who wrote articles and books, sent letters to The New York Times, published their own newspapers in the gayborhoods, and urged jurists and doctors to change their views. They were actively fighting against the systems of oppression that were in place in those communities. And, just, the idea that gays just felt bad and hid in their shame… absolutely not true, at least not in New York, again as early as 1890-something.
KYLE GETZ
1890, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. So New York was just, like… is, has been, always will be for a long-ass time… gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] If you want to hear more about shame, listen to our bonus Patreon episode about shame where we talk about internalized homophobia.
MIKE JOHNSON
He also goes into this whole thing about that there’s this narrative that we especially fight against today – and we’ve talked about it a lot on the show – that gay culture is white middle class culture. Right? And the narrative, the theory, the myth, is that that is the only group that has the resources to make it happen. That- The idea is that, like, poor people are too busy working too hard to, like, go out and get fucked up and do coke or what- I don’t know. [Kyle chuckles] It kind of makes sense though, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That, like- And, largely, that is our view… Not in New York, not historically speaking. But a lot of this history has been lost because that’s what we look for. We look for middle class white gay culture which, in New York, didn’t really exist. A lot of this was working class, it was African American folks, it was Italian and Irish folks which were very much discriminated against in the time periods that we’re talking about because of the backlash against huge swathes of immigration that were happening. But uh, research up until he published this book was focused on The New York Times articles and mainstream white middle class sources instead of- He found a whole bunch of stuff in African American press, especially for the Harlem gayborhood tabloids. It was looking more at working class culture and looking at pop culture instead of just, like, medical and legal documents. And he points out there’s a reason that all of these gayborhoods that existed in New York in the 1890s, 1920s, those were all also historically black, Irish, and Italian neighborhoods, because it was not middle class whites, it was those places where gay culture could take root. And then – can’t leave this section here without pointing out – white middle class culture, even Stonewall for a long time, totally erase the involvement of trans women of color, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. There was like a actual white statue, [chuckles] a physical white statue that was placed outside, of, like, two white people or something, like, that commemorated Stonewall, instead of black people, trans people, black trans people, sex workers, like, all the people that went to Stonewall.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, absolutely. And it’s just not true.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just not true. That’s us whitewashing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s crazy how much- Who is telling you this story? Who is looking back on it, and where are they looking? I like that, like, “Oh, yeah, I’m gonna look at The New York Times.” Like, well there’s far more there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. There really is. I love this book, I’m gonna read it more, and I wish I had more, like, modern things to say about New York, it’s I’ve just been so steeped in this history stuff that, uh-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think it’s important though to also recognize New York as being like the forefront of the HIV/AIDS crisis. And a lot of, like, television and media is produced in New York, and there’s a lot of involvement in- of gays in those industries: Broadway of course, and musicals, and other kinds of theater are this huge draw. New York is just- it’s the place, man.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna talk about the Statue of Liberty for Patreon, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Is there- Is there a gay angle to this?
MIKE JOHNSON
A gayngle?
KYLE GETZ
A gayngle… [chuckles] as we never call it.
MIKE JOHNSON
There is a gayngle: there’s an excellent chance that the Statue of Liberty is a drag queen.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] [half-singing to the tune of “Empire State of Mind” by Jay-Z] New York! [Mike laughs] Something, something, dreams they can knead… pizza right. Then, the last thing I want to tell you…
MIKE JOHNSON
Tell me!
KYLE GETZ
These are current New York organizations, New York-based organizations that support LGBT people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
This list is from secretnyc.co. Couldn’t afford that “com”.
MIKE JOHNSON
The “m”, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, gimme that cum. [both chuckle] The Center is New York City’s LGBTQ community center that offers advocacy for New York health, wellness programs, arts, education, cultural programs, recovery, parenthood, families support… basically, supporting New York City’s LGBT center in any way imaginable.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
KYLE GETZ
Another local one is Audre Lorde Project, which is a community organizing for LGBT people of color in the New York City area. They work for community wellness and progressive social and economic justice. One of the ones that I’ve heard of – we actually put this on our help and resources page – is SAGE. This is a national organization, Services & Advocacy for LGBTQ Elders. [TN: Services & Advocacy for GLBT Elders] So, they- And I don’t see too many of these, so that, to me, is a really important one to know about that advocates for LGBT elders. And they have a hotline, so if you want the hotline it’s 877-360-LGBT, or 877-360-5428. Hotline if you need resources, help, whatever it is going on. That’s a support system.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know if I trust ‘em.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Why?
MIKE JOHNSON
They don’t know how letters work. Their name is “SAGE” but they should be ‘SALGBTE”.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Everything used to be-
MIKE JOHNSON
Gay.
KYLE GETZ
-Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual… and that’s- Like, you can tell an organization’s- When they still have “GLBT” it sounds weird to say these days but, like, I started an organization in my college that was the “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender…” Like, that’s just the order we did it in.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So anyway, yeah. SAGE. I do not fault SAGE. I personally love our LGBT elders, unlike Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know.
KYLE GETZ
Um. [chuckles] The-
MIKE JOHNSON
Because I’m closer to being one, I think is- [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Well it’s kind of cool. Like, we need more resources for LGBT elders as we have more LGBT elders these days, as people are living longer, happier, healthier lives, like… and not dying of AIDS.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, there’s this whole thing about, like, that white middle class gays sort of took over being the image of the culture because they’re the ones that had healthcare and lived.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, yeah. It’s terrible.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- I mean, I can understand- I can see that. Did I write down- There’s- No. There was- Fuck. I wish I- Ugh, it would have been the smoothest transition. I didn’t include- There’s one that, like, is the biggest LGBT provider of health care in the nation or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t write the name down. I don’t know, you’ll have to find it yourself. That’s a little mystery for you to solve yourself, dear listener.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, there’s the Sylvia Rivera Law Project which is a legal aid organization. I’ve heard of this before and I couldn’t pinpoint it. Have you heard of…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
A legal aid organization that serves low income people and people of color who are trans, intersex, and gender-nonconforming. This is particularly of importance these days. They provide social health and legal services. There have programs that support immigrants and prisoner’s rights. There’s a prisoner pen pal program. Another one is Immigration Equity, [TN: Immigration Equality] which is the nation’s leading LGBT and HIV-positive immigration rights organization. And it’s mostly through, like, legal and policy that they work.
MIKE JOHNSON
Isn’t Lambda Legal based in New York?
KYLE GETZ
Are they? I didn’t see them in, like, this list or whatever but that would be a good one to include if that’s true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, they are based in New York.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo, they’re- Okay, they’re the, like, law- Whenever I see, like, ACLU and Lambda Legal sue for something… Like, yeah, I see them show up a lot. They do a lot of great work.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And ACT UP, which I did not realize was still going.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fight AIDS!
KYLE GETZ
Like, I just think of that as, you know, back in the 90s…
MIKE JOHNSON
Actual reality! ACT UP! Fight AIDS! That’s from Rent.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay. [Mike laughs] I was trying to make it make sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] I took my medicine this morning, Kyle. I just want you to know that. But then I had like four cups of coffee, which I think undoes my meds.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Never take coffee right after medication. [Mike chuckles] No, I’m thinking of fiber. Is that true?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, if shit myself I’ll let you know. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Please don’t. You know, I don’t think I need to know that information. ACT UP: AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power. I also did not know that was an acronym. I mean, I knew it was in all caps but I thought that was just because we were so angry. And that is an historic organization that provides direct action to end the AIDS crisis. They were formed in response to the government neglect, the lack of response in the medical community, social neglect during the AIDS crisis during the 80s and 90s in particular. So yeah, that organization still exists. So a lot of really important LGBT organizations exist to this day in New York that fight for our rights. So…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeeaah!
KYLE GETZ
New York continues to be a beacon of hope, help, and heart.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you just come up with that?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Good work.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] You’re welcome, New York. You can have that one for free.
KYLE GETZ
You can have that one- No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Okay, we’re gonna talk about, like, our, like, personal experiences. You’ve been to New York.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve been to New York.
MIKE JOHNSON
You have a really good friend that lives there.
KYLE GETZ
Quite a few times, yep. Hi, Tessa. You don’t listen. Um, that’s okay. [chuckles] I actually-
MIKE JOHNSON
She’s busy.
KYLE GETZ
She’s busy, she has babies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
At least two that I know of.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are any of them yours? [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
If they were, it would have been through a hot- one of those hot tubs sperm babies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
When I originally got my offer from [censor beep], I could have selected Seattle, Chicago, or New York. And I picked Seattle because my friend Tessa, who now lives in New York, was in Seattle. That was a big reason. It was like “Oh, someone I know is already gonna be there.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-huh.
KYLE GETZ
So- And then she left me, and then moved away to New York.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus, Tessa, I didn’t even think about that!
MIKE JOHNSON
And then you didn’t follow her.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t follow her. Yeah. So I had the option. I always wanted to live in New York, and there’s still part of me that… I don’t think I could do a move city thing. Like, I have my- Like, I have kind of settled here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So there’s part of me that kind of wonders what would have happened, or what I- I don’t know. I could- My life would have been totally different if I had picked that option.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, you wouldn’t be here right now.
KYLE GETZ
No. We wouldn’t be doing this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Probably.
KYLE GETZ
Probably. I doubt it. And it was just so interesting. Like, our colleagues that worked in the New York office, they were they were, like- we made the same income and they were barely getting by.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It was, like- It was so interesting how different the- Like, the cost is so much higher.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [chuckles] Although I think Seattle’s closing the gap.
KYLE GETZ
I think we’re workin’ on it. If rent prices are any indication, we’re tryin’. We’re trying to fill that gap with San Francisco too. We’re workin’ on it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I also talked about my dream of one day living in New York with my- the first guy I dated, like, really, like, long term dated.
MIKE JOHNSON
Jay-Z?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And when we broke up he moved to New York.
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw, interesting.
KYLE GETZ
That was a- I have said before, I tend to cut off… exes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. He did that for you! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
So there was a- There was a benefit! I’m not gonna run into him.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I saw my latest ex…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, did you?
KYLE GETZ
…walking down the street.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Did you duck down an alley?
KYLE GETZ
No, I just- I kind of did a weird smile and kept going.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm. Interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Didn’t say anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Anyway, um-
MIKE JOHNSON
Stone cold bitch! I love it.
KYLE GETZ
That’s what they call me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
That’s my wrestler name. [Mike laughs] [doing a gruff raspy voice] Stone Cold Bitch, oh yeaaah! I’ll stone you out!
MIKE JOHNSON
“Stone you out”? Is that what you said?
KYLE GETZ
It is what I said. [Mike laughs] That is correct. That is what I said. But there’s part of it that was like a ssss…
MIKE JOHNSON
Slap in the face?
KYLE GETZ
We had talked about it together. Like, he would always dream to go to New York too. And so, when he moved, I was like… [sighs] Oooh, that was a lot to- That was part of, like, trying to process moving on. Like, it was that, that he did the thing that we had talked about doing together. It was some of the things he left behind in our apartment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like a note that I had written him that was, like, just sitting there on the counter. That was hard, but, um…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I have some weird mixed feelings, like, personally about New York, but I love being there and visiting there. I love big cities. Like, New York might be my favorite city in the world, and I’ve- You know, the other ones are the big cities… that I’ve been to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Have you done gay stuff in New York?
KYLE GETZ
Um-
KYLE GETZ
You haven’t been to the Stonewall but, like, have you done-
KYLE GETZ
No. I have not been to, like, gay bars and stuff.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s fuckin’ fix that!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Yeah, let’s fucking do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Hell’s Kitchen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hell’s Kitchen.
KYLE GETZ
Place to be.
MIKE JOHNSON
The baking’s and oven… somethin’.
KYLE GETZ
…Uh-huh. [both chuckle] We’re both getting some really good ones in, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god.
KYLE GETZ
“The baking something oven.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
How do you feel? What’s your personal experience with New York?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, I’ve only been a handful of times. The first time I ever went was with my ex-wife, and we saw Wicked on Broadway. And that- Those- That was the Idina Menzel and Kristin Chenoweth days.
KYLE GETZ
Nooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Got really great tickets too, it was amazing.
KYLE GETZ
And you were straight then.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I was straight then.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was magical. [Kyle chuckles] Um… let’s see… and then my ex-husband and I went.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, you covered that with [chuckles] both exes.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s when we went to Stonewall. And then I was just there for work in October and I also, except for going to Stonewall for that experience, haven’t done any gay stuff.
KYLE GETZ
You didn’t go… You didn’t go gay, when you went recently?
MIKE JOHNSON
No, uh-uh.
KYLE GETZ
Huh!
MIKE JOHNSON
No, I- Instead we went and sang karaoke, which is not not gay.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But-
KYLE GETZ
It could be gayer.
MIKE JOHNSON
A bunch of straight coworkers, you know?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah, could have been gayer.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it was such a quick trip, I was only there one night. Yeah. Anyway, I’m excited to, like- I want to gay it up this trip, and not just because we’re doing our show at The Spot in Hell’s Kitchen. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Gayishpodcast.com/live.
MIKE JOHNSON
June 4th at 7 pm. [laughs] Get your tickets, you fuckfaces.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s gonna be a lot of fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s gonna be a lot of fun. But yeah, I wanna do some gay stuff while we’re there, and we’re there two nights so we should have…
KYLE GETZ
Hopefully.
MIKE JOHNSON
…opportunity.
KYLE GETZ
Unless I’m- I might just be a nervous wreck and be in the hotel the whole time because I like prepping and just being nervous.
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw.
KYLE GETZ
And taking PrEP.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Just downing PrEP after PrEP.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, well, I don’t have that problem. So I’m gonna- [both laugh] I will invite you to-
KYLE GETZ
You will be- Yes. I have the option of joining you on New York gay outing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re staying in Times Square, I think.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Should we- Did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, we- I mean, we talked about New York a- Your stuff is really interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Thanks!
KYLE GETZ
I really liked that gay New York book.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I, like- I just love it. I’m so super excited to read about it too, because he keeps talking about, like, all of this stuff that’s, like, super important to the whole movement came out of New York.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And so it’s like, in a way, the cradle of gayness in the United States. And- So let’s go visit there and fuck it up.
KYLE GETZ
We didn’t talk about Stonewall at all. I mean, we did a tiny bit. Should w- Eh, well, we’ve talked about it on past episodes, like at the very beginning of the show, so yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Yeah! Then we did stuff.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. You want to take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, hey!
KYLE GETZ
Hey…
MIKE JOHNSON
Dirty fuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Beautiful people.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have a couple of announcements.
KYLE GETZ
Tour!
MIKE JOHNSON
The tour. We’re going on a tour, y’all. We’re gonna be in New York City next weekend.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah… if you’re listening to this in real time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, we will be- Do you want me to read them?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, do it!
KYLE GETZ
We will be in New York on June 4th. It is at 7 pm at The Spot. There’s still tickets. Go to gayishpodcast.com/live for these tickets and all your tickets, but we will also be in Seattle June 23rd, that’s a free show with Derek and Romaine. Chicago on July 29th, San Francisco on August 13th, Los Angeles on September 10th, and Houston on October 15th. Go get your tickets for all of those places, except for Seattle which is free. You get a drink with your tickets, so it’s fun and great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It’s basically- It’s basically free, it just comes with a- Like, you’re gonna drink anyway.
KYLE GETZ
You’re gonna drink anyway [Mike laughs] so let’s just get you started, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, our website is gayishpodcast.com
KYLE GETZ
We are on Instagram @gayishpodcast, and we also have a Facebook group, a Discord, Spaces, and you can find all that info at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109. Uh, really quickly, before we go into the Gayest & Straightest, I just wanted to do a quick shoutout to a local/not local drag event that’s happening. So, on July 1st, Saturday July 1st at 5 pm at the Snoqualmie Sno Valley Eagles, there is a drag show being put on by Calypso Frost, friend of the show, and it would be really great to support them because it’s outside of the city limits of Seattle and, like, drag is under fire everywhere, everybody, and if you want to support drag especially support it where it needs the most support.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Plus, go to a drag show, it’s fucking amazing. It’s always the best time you’ll have.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Doors are at 5, show is at 6. It will be a $10 cover for nonmembers, $5 for Eagles members, which, I don’t know how the Eagles in Snoqualmie, Washington rolls, but back home the Eagles Club- like, none of those people have seen a drag show before, so it’s [both chuckle] gonna be interesting. Anyway, go check them out.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’d be awesome.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, ready to do our Gayest & Straightest?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
My gayest is I wore some cute dress shoes for an interview and they cut up the back of my feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, they were, like, bleeding. I have scabs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So injuring myself on cute dress shoes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, my straightest is I injured myself a different way. I dropped a piece of plywood that I was using to set up my AC in my place. So dropping that on my shin.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s not great.
KYLE GETZ
Cut myself there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you okay?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I’m good.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you sure? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Just, you know, hurting myself on accident and, uh, just hurting them in gay and straight ways.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So that’s fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ouch.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m sorry.
KYLE GETZ
That’s okay!
MIKE JOHNSON
Ehh.
KYLE GETZ
You live and you learn, so says Ms. Morissette.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Gotta add that to the list.
KYLE GETZ
Gotta add that to the list. What about you?
MIKE JOHNSON
So the gayest thing about me this week: I went to CC’s to Funderwear night last night, [Kyle chuckles] which, I knew it was Funderwear night…
KYLE GETZ
I’ve not h- “Funderwear”. That’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fun underwear, Kyle. It’s “funderwear”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, make sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then, like- Okay, the gayest thing about me is this conversation that I had, which I didn’t know how to feel about at the time but it was very, very gay, and that was the dude said “Oh, you’re one of those guys that doesn’t know how hot he is,” and I didn’t know how to answer that, because if you say yes…
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] “Correct.” [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
And if you say “No,” like- I don’t- How do you- How are you supposed to respond to that? Anyway, I-
KYLE GETZ
I would reply sarcastically, because that’s how I reply to everything.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s like the only option, really, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Try to make a joke out of it or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god.
KYLE GETZ
What did you say?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t remember.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was very drunk.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Were you in your underwear?
MIKE JOHNSON
Also- No, I didn’t. I didn’t get down in my underwear, which, maybe I should, because then that was a topic of conversation that I just- I ran into Chris Haigy, which, I always run into him at those kinds of events, and he just goes- He came around the corner because had just gotten done checking in, and he just looked at me and he goes “Every time.” [both laugh] Um, and then I, while I was there, hung out with Reverend Sister Burna Bush of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. There were a couple of them there. It was great to sort of catch up and get a little bit of inside info about this whole thing with the Dodgers.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the straightest thing about me this week was, after I got home – and, again, I was drunk – I took my shoes off and I rammed my pinky toe into the wall on the corner here and then I ended up, like, fucking up my toenail and I pulled my pinky toenail off-
KYLE GETZ
Eugghhh!
MIKE JOHNSON
-and bled all over everything. That’s the straightest thing about me this week. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Wow, we need a trigger warning for this episode just for that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, sorry. [laughs] Do you want to see it?
KYLE GETZ
No!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
…Yeah, there should be something there and there is not. [Mike laughs] There’s just dried up blood instead.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
We’re hurting ourselves.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know.
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna show up bruised and beaten up to New York City. [in a sultry voice] That’s how I like it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Goodness. Yeah. Um…
KYLE GETZ
A listener’s Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Listener’s Gayest & Straightest. This week’s come to us from Discord, and it wasn’t in the #canadians-only channel but probably should have been. [Kyle laughs] This is from Psychmurse, and says “Gayest and straightest with the one, the only @Hidden”. So Psychmurse and Hidden, two of our most active Canadian Discord folks. “Straightest, setting up a bar, running electrical cables hither and yon and carrying heavy things”, “Gayest: it was for a bear event ([called] bearachhus) and the costumes got more revealing as the night went on!” Their pics as proof, if you want to see them, join our Discord and go to the #gayest-and-straightest channel. “(Also yes I have a staff with multiple glowing gems while dressed as an orc-mage and @Hidden is rocking a harness and jock! – I am also wearing a jock under my flaps but it’s much harder to see)”
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Go check it out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Go check it out.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, we’re doing a lot of good promo in this episode, just left and right. Maybe we are good at this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Pew pew.
KYLE GETZ
Pew pew. That that’s it?
MIKE JOHNSON
That is it! See you in New York, you dirty fuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I hope everyone comes out. It’s gonna be a lot of fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and I would like to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.
MIKE JOHNSON
That is it! This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Until next week.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
MIKE JOHNSON
Buy your goddamn tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Buy your fucking tickets. [Mike chuckles] If we haven’t, did we mention New York, June 4th, 7 pm, The Spot? [Mike laughs] Check it out. Hope you… come.
MIKE JOHNSON
Spell “come”. [Kyle chuckles]
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 333 Masking (w/ Minoritea Report)
Masking and code-switching are extra burdens placed on minoritized communities, including queer, Black, brown, and disabled communities, to fit in with the expectations of a straight, white, neurotypical society. The aunties from the podcast Minoritea Report join us to talk about their experiences.
In this episode: News- 1:52 || Main Topic (Masking)- 14:53 || Guests (Minoritea Report)- 24:10 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:14:31
We love Minoritea Report! You can find their podcast, follow them on socials, and get merch here: https://linktr.ee/MinoriteaReport.
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour are on pre-sale NOW (except NYC, where tickets are regular price). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, we play a fun game of XXX with Minoritea Report and answer some dirty questions. Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that’s holding a lot of water in its butt. [Mike chuckles] I guess that makes it anal-retentive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God. [laughs] It’s the worst when you douche and it doesn’t all come out and you’re like “Where did it go?” [Kyle laughs] “Do I have, like, a secret compartment?”
KYLE GETZ
It’s like half a cup of water still sloshing around?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah, and it won’t come out, like, dammit.
KYLE GETZ
A secret compartment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality and, today…
KYLE GETZ
Ms. Frizzle and the kids find the secret water butt compartment. [Mike laughs] When you wheel out the science cart to watch a TV instead of actually do learning.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the episode I want to watch.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, yeah. I’m old enough to remember, like, reel-to-reel, like, films.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, we showed movie movies because I don’t think VCRs were a thing yet. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Wow. We at least- We moved from VHSs to DVDs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is a great episode so far, Kyle. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
This is a good episode on Ms. Frizzle. [chuckle] I love this episode so far. Um, no, we are talking about masking.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about masking. Uh, yeah, which, you know, we’ll- we’ll get into it after some stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But it was a Gap Bridger request, which I’m super excited about.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, thanks, Harry Shaw.
MIKE JOHNSON
Especially because we’re gonna have some of our favorite collaborators on today. Minoritea Report is joining us.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And- So- They’re magical.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I heart them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. I’m excited to talk to them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the first: the United States Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, just last week has once again changed the blood donation recommendations, blood donation policies, in the United States. And it’s not better for me, personally, but it’s better in general I think. So, they are going to ask people who want to donate blood the same set of questions regardless of their sex or sexual orientation.
KYLE GETZ
That already sounds like an improvement.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, not- We’ve talked about it on the show a million times, but I think it’s worth going over because a lot of people just are unaware, it was just a few years ago that gay and bisexual men had a lifetime ban on donating blood. So, if you had ever banged a dude, as a dude, you were done. And then the most recent policy, which has been in effect for a couple of years now, said that men who have sex with men, or women who have sex with men who have sex with men, needed to wait three months after sexual contact with other men before they could donate blood. But they were looking at other countries like the UK and Canada who have implemented what they call “risk-based rules” and determined that it was safe to not make it about orientation or even gender identity, but to make it about behavior. So-
KYLE GETZ
Which, that makes way more sense to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, yep. Exactly. Now, the reason that I still can’t donate blood is because if you are on PrEP you still can’t donate blood.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, um, that’s partially because PrEP, and medications like PrEP that are that are used for HIV treatment, can make it so that there- it is an undetectable amount of viral load in the blood supply, which, undetectable is untransmissible- untransmittable. “U=U”, on your dating apps, that’s a person saying that “I am pos but I don’t have any measurable amount of viral load in my blood,” you cannot get HIV sexually from a person. But it turns out that it is possible for you to have an undetectable amount of viral load in your blood. But blood-to-blood, like directly going in your veins, not via sex, is still a risk, it’s still possible to transmit.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, because PrEP is part of the equation that can lower the detectability- Um, and so it’s just an overabundance of caution. But, under the new questions, anyone who had a new sexual partner and anal sex, or who had multiple sexual partners and anal sex, would be asked to wait three months from their most recent sexual contact to donate blood. And then, again, if you’re on PrEP, you still- you can’t. And the FDA is saying they advise against stopping PrEP to donate blood. Don’t. If you’re on PrEP, be on PrEP.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t go off PrEP so you can donate get blood.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that would be the most, like, kindhearted person in the world that I can imagine, [chuckles] to go off PrEP just to donate blood. Like, that’s so sweet of you but, like, no, take care of you first.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and, then I was thinking, like… I don’t know, why am I on PrEP? The last load I took was January so, like, there’s been plenty of time.
KYLE GETZ
But, like, did you plan for that? Would you have wrapped it up? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
You know? It’s not about a- It’s not about frequency it’s also about, when it happens, what do you do? So, you know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Anyway, thanks, FDA, for doing your best to take the “Are you gay?” part out and just focus on the dangerous part, which is the butt sex part.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and especially when you’re already doing a pre-screening with every person. This is not like we have to make mass decisions based on no information other than “Oh, we know some people are gay.” It’s, like, you’re doing a pre-screening where you control what questions you ask a person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
And so, rather than asking them if they’re gay and making some assumptions, you can just ask what you really need to know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
So it’s not that we’re, like, being more PC, it’s just we’re following the trail of what actually- what actual information causes the risk and what do we need to know from people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
So, that’s awesome.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uhh, okay, news the second. So… [sighs] there’s this dude-
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s this dude named Bob Huggins, and Bob Huggins is the West Virginia men’s basketball head coach. Are you- Have you been following this story at all?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m mostly just throwing it in here because I like the fact that there are consequences. So [Kyle laughs] he went on a Cincinnati radio show a couple of weeks ago, towards the beginning of May here, and heeee said a bunch of nasty shit about Xavier, which is another school, I guess it’s like their rival. And- I haven’t found the clip to listen to it, and most of the articles dance around what exactly he said, which, that’s interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But he was on a Cincinnati radio show and they asked him if he’d ever poached any Xavier players to transfer to West Virginia. And he said, quote, “Catholics don’t do that. Any school that can throw rubber penises on the floor and then say they didn’t do it, [my] god they can get away with anything,” and then the show host mentions that it was transgender night at the game that Huggins was referencing while he was a coach at the University of Cincinnati. It is unclear if the school ever held a transgender night or if the incident Huggins described ever happened, but he followed up with an anti-gay comment. Quote, “what it was, was all those fags, those Catholic fags, I think,” “[I think] they were envious they didn’t have one.” A transgender night, I guess. Anyway-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, so, blah, blah, blah, he made a big ole apology and said that he understood that it was “abhorrent”, and, um, he said a bunch of very, like, I don’t know… PC bullshit. Quote, “I deeply regret my actions,” “I also regret the embarrassment and disappointment it has caused our Athletics family”. This is- Like, you’re reading this, you fuckin’ dickbag.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, he gave a PR person, like, “I need a publicist to draft me feelings.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, but this- He also was given a three game suspension, is going to be required to participate in sensitivity training, his contract has been changed from a six-year contract – or, multi-year contract – to a year-to-year deal, and, this is the big one, his salary was reduced by $1 million.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus Christ.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, he was supposed to be getting $4.1 million and they reduced his salary to 3, over this comment that he made.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I mean, on one hand, that’s great, and can you imagine making- still making $3 million?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like… ugh, jeez, that’s insane. But, I mean, yeah, that’s great. Those seem like real, tangible consequences and not just-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep, yep. Absolutely. So, West Virginia University, good for you for, like, I don’t know, like actually doing something about it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It wasn’t just a slap on the wrist, it wasn’t just, like, an apology tour, it was, like, fuckin’ paycheck, dickbag.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. And, hopefully, if it happens again, there’s something that, like- Okay, that’s why it’s year-to-year, so they can, like- If something like this happens again, if he shows a pattern of behavior, then you let him go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Because that’s, like- One of those interviews, it’s like… that came out of your mouth because that’s who you are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
By nature.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you had to do the fake apology “Oh, I’m so sorry.” Like, you’re not- Like, you’re sorry you got caught but, like, that’s the kind of shit you know he says all the time at home.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely, yeah. I don’t think straight people throw around the F word very much unless they’re, like, throwing it around a lot.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, much less on the radio.
KYLE GETZ
I completely- Yeah. Like, yeah. If you’re saying “fag” on the radio- Like, that would be a time you… I don’t know, I think you’d kind of hide the F word to, like, just- I-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t get it.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know why you’d think that would be- Yeah. That’s wild, that he even thought that was an acceptable thing to throw around.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. He also says that- The school says that Huggins and all athletic department people will, quote, “partner with WVU’s LGBTQ+ Center to develop annual training sessions that will address all aspects of inequality including homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ableism and more.” I don’t understand why every educational institute in the country isn’t already doing this kind of shit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. As a base- As a baseline.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, day one of “You work here now,” should probably be “Here’s how to not be a dickbag.” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh, man, can you imagine the poor fag that has to lead that training?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, my god. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
It’d be like “Let’s talk about…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Let’s talk about what it means to be gay.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Butt sex!” “Shut up.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Don’t say words yet.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. Exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Oh man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and the ignorant but probably well-meaning questions that he’s gonna get.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. And those are times you kind of have to, like, be able to accept the ignorant but well-meaning questions because this is a safe place of learning where you’re allowed to, like- I wonder what- Ugh, I would, like, pay to hear what questions you get asked at those kinds of sessions.
MIKE JOHNSON
I absolutely would too.
KYLE GETZ
Oh man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, news the last.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, uh, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson wrote the court’s opinion in Santos-Zacaria v. Garland. It was a unanimous decision, which, that’s interesting because even Clarence Thomas apparently isn’t a big enough fuckface asshole dickbag [Kyle chuckles] to fight this. But, uh, the decision is historic not just because of the impact that it had on the law, but because it is inclusive in transgender people noncitizens that live in the United States and does so in a way that uses proper pronouns to describe a trans woman who fled Guatemala after being assaulted and persecuted on the basis of her gender identity and sexual orientation. She, um- Oh, also, a, uh- They- It’s noteworthy that the opinion uses the term “noncitizen” rather than “illegal alien”-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-which has appeared in court documents before, but Justice Jackson chose to use “noncitizen” as part of the language, which I think is great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but Estrella Santos-Zacaria, who’s a trans refugee, came to the United States illegally and was deported, so then she came to the United States again, because she was being accosted for being trans in Guatemala. And, apparently, there’s some sort of technicality in how she was deported that’s just, like- There doesn’t need to be an opinion, it just- They fucked up the deportation process, so she needs to go through the right channels to be deported. But yeah, the fact that they use she/her pronouns and refer to her as a “noncitizen” is pretty cool.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Pretty new. And, of course, Justice Jackson is one of the liberal ones, and a badass.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s it.
KYLE GETZ
That’s awesome.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Um, speaking of badasses…
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
Okay! [both laugh] Speaking of badi, uh, I would like to think the following-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the plural, now?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Badi”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. Uh, I would like to thank the following Patreon members: Kevin Kelly-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s two first names.
KYLE GETZ
That’s two first names, Kevin… and/or Kelly. Uh, Hunter Silver… that’s the name of an X-Man.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a color.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, right. [chuckles] I’m thinking of redoing my wall, I’m gonna do a deep shade of hunter silver.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hunter green, hunter orange, and hunter silver highlights.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both chuckle] Uh, Charles Benton…
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Do you have any comments?
MIKE JOHNSON
That sounds fancy, actually.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, sorry. [in a shrill unfancy voice] Charles Benton! [Mike laughs] Uh, Klyde…
MIKE JOHNSON
“Klyde”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Uniname.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Klyde”… sounds like a horse.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, “Clydesdale”.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think my grandpa had a horse named “Clyde”.
KYLE GETZ
“Clyde the Clydesdale”? That’s a little- That’s a little much. That’s a little too much.
MIKE JOHNSON
I bet the Bestiality episode got Klyde. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, sorry, Klyde. We only knew you- Thanks for joining, bye, see you later.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Later!
KYLE GETZ
It’s been fun having you. Um, and Jeff Tollett… or “Tollett”, [said like “tow-LAY”] but there’re two t’s, so “Tollett”. [like “tow-LET”] “Tollett” [like “TOY-ett”] “Tollett”. [like “toll-ee-ETT-uh”]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Jeff.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks, Jeff. I would like to thank all of our new Patreon members. If you want to get episodes a day early, get them ad-free, or even get bonus content, episodes, bonus segments, you can join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeeah! And 50% off live show tickets. You should buy those, you dirty fuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! You beautiful, dirty fuckers. [Mike laughs] We love you so… get your live show tickets. Gayishpodcast.com/live, see all the dates.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay, you want to talk about masking?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Masc masking.
KYLE GETZ
Masc4mascing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, there’s masking involved in a lot of masc-
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh yeah, dude. There is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah brah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do this whole thing as if we’re, like, dudes.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] So, we had sort of kicked around this idea. First, Harry Shaw, one of our Gap Bridgers, selected this. We take our Gap Bridgers and we have- we sit down and have, like, a face-to-face chat with them.
KYLE GETZ
We steal them [chuckles] for a brief-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
-a brief night.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then, uh, we- Yeah, we talk through ideas and what interests are, and we settled on this. But we were sort of… not unsure, but we were kicking around this, like, “What is masking, versus what is code-switching?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because they are quite related. And I was telling you, right before we went on the air, that I think that this episode is the Masking episode, if only because a lot of the stuff that I read about code-switching makes it sound like that’s specifically about being multilingual.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
That code-switching, in, like, the stuff that I was reading is, like, “When do you speak your native language, versus when do you speak English in English spaces?”
KYLE GETZ
I’m guessing- I’m guessing that’s one of the definitions, because I saw that too but then I also saw other things that were like… when you are speaking in the language that you use within your minority group. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I saw kind of both options.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. But still about language, right?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s see. I have definitions, and my “code-switching”- definition on “code-switching” says “It involves adjusting one’s speech, appearance, behavior, and mannerisms…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
“…that will increase the comfort of others in exchange for fair treatment.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
So, I think there are- I think the more, like, literal or maybe, like, the non-psychological definition, like, might be, you know, I’m guessing that’s where it started. Code-switching is, like, about language but has then moved on to… There is more that you have to- When you’re adjusting for kind of the dominant kind of behaviors, mannerisms…. ways that are found acceptable to be treated that you… you have to adjust all that, including your language.
MIKE JOHNSON
So maybe- Maybe it is masking, maybe masking is code-switching. Because-
KYLE GETZ
What’s the- Yeah, what did you- Did you find, like, the difference between the two?
MIKE JOHNSON
Masking is psychology and sociology. It says it’s “the process in which an individual camouflages their natural personality or behavior to conform to social pressures, abuse, or harassment.” So yeah, it’s about- It’s about passing as something other than who you really are, in societ- to conform to societal expectations.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So that’s why we were kicking around this idea of, like… sure, we get it from a queer perspective, but there’s a lot of intersectionality when it comes to these things and it would be great to talk to people who have more than one interesting thing about them. [both chuckles] So we got ahold of Minoritea Report, which, fuckin’ love those guys, and they’re all Black queer men, so there’s at least- We can talk about the compounding influences of those things, because I know that Black people are under a lot of pressure in White society, and queer people are under [chuckles] a lot of pressure in straight society, and they are under a lot of pressure for both reasons.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I want to get into it with them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, what I’m coming to understand is that I think “code-switching” and “masking” can be used sometimes synonymously. To me, “code-switching” often refers to… um, race comes up a lot, using AAVE and language that you’re used to around other Black people, versus what White society expects your, you know, words, and sentences, and grammar to sound like. But it-
MIKE JOHNSON
By the way, everybody, AAVE is Ebonics. Don’t say “Ebonics” anymore, say “AAVE”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
African American Vernacular English.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which is- This something I’ve only learned recently. Like, it is an actual language. So if you’re correcting someone because you’re a grammar- you’re the grammar police and think that “Oh, you’re speaking incorrectly,” it’s a correct, totally acceptable form of English.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So you’re the asshole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So… I think- This is a sidenote, but just, like, focusing on someone’s meaning, especially in an argument- Like, in an argument where you start to, like, say, like, “You used the wrong ‘their’ or ‘there’,” like… you’re not, like, directly addressing their argument. You’re not, like, directly addressing or having the conversation. So then you kind of look-
MIKE JOHNSON
And, if somebody says “Your an idiot,” “[Y-O-U-R] an idiot,” on Facebook, they will get a something from me every single time.
KYLE GETZ
That’s funny though. [Mike laughs] That’s to be like “Oh-” That is kind of addressing, directly addressing, their issue though. [chuckles] Anyway, so “code-switching” seem to mostly talk about racism and race-related, like, code-switching, but there’s, you know, far broader things that that applies to. “Masking” seems to be like… When code-switching, you have to mask some of your traits.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And masking seemed explicitly only like hiding behaviors, let’s see… “hides or suppresses behaviors or difficulties they’re experiencing.” It particularly came up when I looked at, like, people with disabilities, people with autism. That seem to be, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Like hiding certain traits or behaviors because they know that they’ve either gotten negative feedback from those behaviors or they know it’s not acceptable, consciously or subconsciously. Like, either way, trying to hide traits that they naturally have in order to conform.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah! I saw high-functioning autism as being- There’s a lot of stuff out there in this space too, and it’s a slightly different- because they’re, uh… sure they’re trying to mask the fact that they have autism, but a lot of it is by adopting, like, behaviors of neurotypical people that they have observed and/or have been taught or- There are, um- There’s like blogs and YouTube videos on, like, how to pass as neurotypical, which I think is super interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely. Should I talk a little bit about…
MIKE JOHNSON
Whatever the fuck you want to, because this is your show?
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely! [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, I’ll just spend a few minutes and talk about, like, for code-switching and masking, a couple of the challenges that come along with this. Both these, I think, we’re mainly gonna be talking about kind of the negative effects of having to do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Code-switching, the pressure to conform to dominant culture, can lead to burnout or emotional exhaustion. Which, like, to try to, like- Even, let’s just do the language thing. To try to speak in a different language than your native language all day, every day, is a lot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- I did that when I studied abroad in Spain. It was- It was tiring.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It was exhausting just speaking. And you’re like- Every interaction, you’re like… [sighing] “Okay.”
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a lot just to get through a podcast with you, I think.
KYLE GETZ
I know. [both chuckle] Is there, like, a code-switching- a pod- We do a little bit of code-switching podcasting, because we, like, turn on different podcasting qualities and turn off others.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. [in a very podcaster-type voice] I definitely don’t talk like this to you in real life, Kyle. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] [in a similarly podcast-y voice] Well that’s interesting, Mike, sometimes I do talk to you like this… but it’s real weird for both of us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Um, code-switching can cause people to not be fully present in the moment because they’re monitoring every word that comes out of their mouth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck, that is- That resonates.
KYLE GETZ
With… With gay? Being gay and not-
MIKE JOHNSON
Being in the closet for 30 years feels just like that.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and it can create tension between an individual and members of the cultural group with which they most strongly identify.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, when you’re- If you code-switch and someone that hears you in both scenarios hears you trying to present more, like, favorably to White people, or they’re like, “What the fuck is your-?” like “Why do you sound like that? What are you doing?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I can- I can even imagine a, you know, a scene in a TV show where someone is like “Wait, why do you- Why are you talking like that to them?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, for masking, some of the side effects: increased stress, depression, and anxiety are some of the potential side effects, sense of loss of your overall identity, and long-term… it says “masking may cause autistic people the most harm,” according to some research. And signs that someone may be masking includes mirroring other’s facial expressions or social behaviors, rehearsing or preparing scripted responses to comments, or imitating gestures such as handshakes or initiating eye contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
So it’s like looking at other people and mirroring what they’re doing, because that’s where you’re picking up your clues and your cues from.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, that’s so interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Alright, well, do you want to take a little break and then talk more about both of these with the boys from Minoritea Report?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! We’re gonna take a break! When we get back we will have Kerel, Jerrell, and Dawon from Minoritea Report on and we’re gonna… have a kiki? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, you wanna take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break!
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back. We are here with Auntie Kerel, Auntie Jerrell, and Auntie Dawon from Minoritea Report. Ladies, welcome to Gayish. Welcome back.
DAWON
Thank you!
KEREL
Thanks for having us back.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, first, uh, it’s been a while since we had you on, but not your first rodeo. What have y’all been up to since the last time you were in front of us?
KEREL
Oh, lord. [laughs]
JERRELL
That’s a loaded question.
DAWON
Survived the pandemic? Uh, where do we start? [all chuckle] It’s been so much time.
KEREL
Eating too much… uh, [chuckles] what else?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
I don’t know, just- I mean, celebrating more podcasts, victories, and we just celebrated 4 years on the podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
That was fun.
KYLE GETZ
Four years…
MIKE JOHNSON
Congratulations.
KYLE GETZ
Congrats!
KEREL
Was wearin’ wigs…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That was a fun episode, that was a lot of fun to watch.
KEREL
That was fun.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
Yeah, and thank you for hopping on there, by the way.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, no problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you think you’d make it four years, when you started? Is that- Was that, like, your vision?
KEREL
Uh… I guess I don’t know if I ever thought of- And, maybe, Dawon and Jerrell, if you had a number on it?
DAWON
Oh yeah.
KEREL
I don’t know if we had, like, a num- [chuckles] Dawon’s like “Yes, 1 year.” [Dawon, Kyle, and Mike laugh] Uh, I don’t know if I ever thought of a number but… did I think we’d still be here? I thought so, at least. Yeah.
KEREL
I agree.
JERRELL
I just didn’t think it would come this quick. Like, I don’t- I didn’t think 4 years would pass that fast. It honestly feels like we’re, like, in the terrible twos. Like, in my mind, like, those original first episodes where we were trying to figure things out still live rent-free in my head, that the community and the world still will never see. [all chuckle]
KEREL
Girl, those episodes are in the vault.
JERRELL
Because the lighting was bad, the mics were bad… [Dawon chuckles] It was… Girl, it was like baby drag. It was not cute. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s a requirement for everyone’s first few podcast episodes, you have to do it on bad mics, it has to sound horrible, and you have to- never want to listen to them again.
JERRELL
Ever.
KYLE GETZ
Ever.
JERRELL
Ever.
DAWON
I have to say- I have to say though, we put a lot of thought and energy into, like, that formative year. So, you know, it’s not like we just decided to turn the cameras on and the mics on and said “Let’s see how she goes!”
KEREL
That’s true. [laughs]
DAWON
Like, we literally put a- We had so many production calls, we were really thoughtful and intentional about what we wanted the voice to be, how we wanted to interact with one another, and how we wanted to use the platform. So, you know, when you think about four years ago and making it to where we are today, I’m just so grateful, you know, that what it is that we’re doing, and the message that we’re sending around representation and that every voice matters, especially those that go unheard and unsung and, you know, don’t have the platform…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
…that that’s resonating with people. That’s what continues to give a lot of us hope. And we are some silly hoes. [all laugh] We like to have fun. This is- You all are getting, like, a snippet of what our regular conversations are like on the daily. So, did we expect to be here four years from now? Yeah, I think so. And I think we’ll probably be here for quite a while.
KEREL
Aw hell, that’s right! Y’all ain’t getting rid of us yet!
DAWON
Maybe some different things- [Mike and Dawon chuckle] Maybe some different things and, you know, having some different people on and, you know, continuing to evolve like we all are doing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome.
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing. Let us into behind the scenes a little bit. Like, what kind of things were most important to you, when putting together this podcast?
JERRELL
Can’t let you behind the scenes too much, because that means we gotta tell you about the text thread, and the text thread don’t make it to the podcast all the time. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Read me one message where it’s all in caps. [chuckles]
KEREL
And the behind the scenes means we don’t know if Jerrell has pants on or not half the time.
DAWON
That part.
JERRELL
She got shorts on today. I thought about it, ‘cause it’s hot, but this chair is- And my ass- My bare ass won’t mesh well too much, so…
KEREL
So that’s the behind scenes stuff. [chuckles]
DAWON
Look, we started this before the pandemic so we were still using, like- We were all, like, having our regular day jobs, we were still, like, sending messages to each other while we were actually physically going into the office. And, like, that’s when you had to, like- Because when you got a text message of something scandalous, you had the ability to, like, make it invisible [chuckles] so that you weren’t in some kind of meeting with your work colleagues that you have so- Just any old thing thingin’ and thingin’ on your phone in the middle of a conversation.
KEREL
That part.
DAWON
So, yeah, it’s been an adventure. [Jerrell and Kyle chuckle]
KEREL
But, I guess, maybe even just to kind of go back to that question though: it’s just, like, we just wanted really to show the spectrum of what it was to be Black and queer and really be- give a voice, or at least a part of a voice because we’re not a monolith at all. But at least sharing our perspective and bringing on folks to share their perspective, what it is to be Black and brown in the queer space. But I would say the one thing, maybe, in the four years that I didn’t… foresee, for just, like, feedback that we get, is that a lot of folks are like “It’s awesome to see three queer Black friends and that dynamic.” For us that was like the norm, we we’re like “Of course we’re friends,” you know, and things like that. But that is a lot of the feedback we get, that they’ve just never been- folks have not been… privy, maybe, to the inside conversations of three queer Black friends, or, that they like seeing the conversations between three queer Black folks because they’re also having those conversations.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
And so that was maybe, like, a given that, like, we didn’t even really discuss at the beginning. But it’s kind of cool, that “Oh, yeah, duh, we’re friends!” [laughs] you know, kind of thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
And that’s been great. And just the vulnerability of just, like, obviously doing, you know, your “Ask Your Aunties” questions and things like that. Just the continued vulnerability, that people are willing to share questions and they might get read by us, it might be a shady answer, and things like that, but that’s just part of the camaraderie we have with the community. That’s been really cool.
KYLE GETZ
And I think that leads very well, actually, into this conversation about code-switching and masking, of kind of the expectations when you’re speaking with your friends versus… I don’t know, I’m trying to think of, like, professionally or- Can you tell me just a little bit about your experience? I’m more thinking like, either younger versions of you or maybe versions of you that had to struggle with this. Like, how have you- What are the challenges in having to code-switch or mask your behaviors or the way you’re used to speaking for kind of mass appeal?
KEREL
How long we got? [all laugh]
JERRELL
I feel like the HR director of Minoritea Report should take this question please. Ms. Auntie Dawon, you’re up. [all laugh]
DAWON
I think one of the things that a lot of your listeners who are people of color, and more specifically Black, would appreciate is just the acknowledgement that we grew up like this. So, the notion of code-switching and masking is ingrained within Black culture, because that’s the way that we have to exist in a world that subjugates us, and the way that it does specifically here in the United States.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
DAWON
Right? So it’s not- It’s not entirely a different experience. Now, that doesn’t mean that it’s not difficult, and it doesn’t feel good and, you know, that we aspire for environments that are vastly different, and that it’s not a struggle, but we do it because we’ve been doing it ever since we’ve been born. We’ve been taught, you know, how to speak in predominantly White spaces. We’ve been taught, like, what professionalism is supposed to look like, you know, which emulates certain ideologies that come from, you know, straight White men, essentially.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
Women go through this as well. So, the notion of code-switching, whether it’s using a vernacular, a style, a tonality, or a lack thereof – right? – in predominantly White spaces, is the modus operandi and is the expectation, right? And then, covering and masking aspects of our identities… Again, you know, you think about how many Black women have straightened their hair – right? – to fit in, or have- when they’ve chosen to wear their hair natural or they’ve chosen to wear braids and have had people coming over to them saying “Can I touch your hair?” or not even saying that, just coming over and having the audacity to put their hands on someone to touch their hair because they’re curious. Like, this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon, you know, and there’s been a lot of education about how to combat this. And I appreciate allies like you all, you know, to our community – when I say “our community”, the Black queer community – for raising the conversation, because this is not something that is- Part of- Let me take one step back and just say that privilege is the ability to not have to care about something that impacts somebody else.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely.
DAWON
So let’s be clear. So, when we talk about masking, and code-switching, and covering, and these concepts that are predominantly impacting people of color, a lot of White people – and I say “White people” just generally, right? – not everyone, but a lot of White people, don’t have a real understanding of what that is like for someone who is Black.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
And we don’t really have an understanding of what it’s like for somebody who is Hispanic. And, you know, the list goes on. So that’s the privilege, right? But you all using the platform that you have, to have conversations about this particular topic in the spirit of raising awareness so that we can all be better and do better, I think that’s a really great first step.
JERRELL
And I would absolutely agree. It’s- I love having the conversation, because the truth of the fact is, like Dwane said, like, as being Black and brown is part of just our culture and how we grew up. You know, like my mom would say, “When you leave this house, you better act like you got some sense,” what meant, you know, “How we act in the house is how we act because that’s how we communicate, but when you leave this house you communicate in a way where other people understand who you are and what you’re trying to say.” And that’s where, for me, code-switching really began as far as understanding, you know, there is in your home, and there’s the outside world. But the truth is, a lot of Black folks are also tired of having to code-switch. It’s like a job inside another job. Like, we go to work and then we have to clock in again to make sure that we don’t say something that may have other people look at us like “Oh, that’s not how we say things around here,” or “You’re not educated,” or, just, even the communication and how I may say something, it may not be how they’re used to having that type of conversation. So it’s- It’s- [chuckles] In my mind, I think if I had like a bra on and I came home and I take it off, like, that’s what code-switching would feel like to me. [everyone else laughs] You know? Like, I’ll leave work and I’m just like-
DAWON
Let these titties out, girl!
JERRELL
Girl, let ‘em out. Because it is- It’s weight. Because, like, it’s- One of the things that I love about my relationship, my partner is an immigrant, he migrated here, and so English isn’t his first language and he often would have conversations about, like, how he would feel embarrassed about his English, and he would constantly ask me for the first few years, like, “Did I say that okay? Do I sound like I’m not from here?” like always thinking about that. And then he would tell me, like, “I would have to say it in Albanian first before I said it in English, to make sure you understood what I was saying,” and I was like “Bitch, that’s code-switchin’.” I have to say it how I would want to say it normally, and then I have to say it in a way that non-Black folks, non-Black and brown folks, would be able to understand it. And I’m like “See, I love you even more because you understand something that a lot of other people don’t understand,” you know? So I do, like Dawon, appreciate having these conversations, because it’s the only way we’re gonna feel comfortable to be our most authentic selves and actually allow for us to not be able to code-switch, the more allies understand the importance of us being able to truly be our authentic selves. Because, often, workspaces are like “Hey, you know, we really accept you for who you are,” but it doesn’t feel like that quite often.
KYLE GETZ
With a big asterisk, maybe? Like- [chuckles]
JERRELL
Yes, exactly. Mhm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I wanted to ask you: you talk about your mom saying, you know, things to you as you were leaving the house…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know that, like, Black parents, with their kids, have the talk about cops – right? – and that’s something that White parents don’t do, and talking to my Black friends and learning, like, every single Black person in my life had their parent, at some point in time, sit them down and talk about interacting with cops… I’m curious-
KEREL
And still do! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and still do. And rightly so, right? They absolutely, like- Keep ‘em safe, because it’s not safe, right? Um, but I’m curious: how explicit, like- like, would you get lessons on code-switching? Like, is it really, like, specific things that were said out loud to you as lessons, or is it sort of more, like, implied or influenced? You know what I’m saying? Like, how explicit are the, like… uh, ideas that you got?
KEREL
I think it’s a little bit both?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah?
KEREL
I feel like it kind of depends on the situation. Like, especially like, say, like professional life, like in corporate America and things like that. Like, I remember, when I got into corporate America, there was a conversation with my family and friends. They were like “Oh, you’re gonna-” So, I had cornrows throughout college, and came into corporate America and I specifically [chuckles] kept them because I knew that it might rub people the wrong way but I wanted to show “It doesn’t matter what my hair looks like, I’m gonna still kick ass in this job,”-kind of thing. So there’s been comments, conversations, very maybe specific in that regard, saying “Oh, you might want to think twice about that because of X, Y, Z.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure, yeah.
KEREL
But then there’s other instances that it’s just, like, implied on a day-to-day thing, you know? And, like Dawon said, it was something that’s just so there your entire life, a lot of times you don’t even know or remember when you learned it, but you know it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
And so, some of that is just, like- The sucky part is just like it’s almost forced upon you, and it’s just like you don’t even know if it’s a nature or nurture thing because it’s so engrained because it’s been around forever. So I feel like it’s so situational-based that it’s like “Ooh, hold on… you know you can’t do that,” or “You know, we say it like this in the crib but, when we get out there, make it- elevate your voice and put the-” what we call, like, “the White voice”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
JERRELL
Mhm.
KEREL
And, you know, especially when it even comes down to, like, your name, because, like, “Kerel”, “Jerrell”, and “Dawon”, I mean, is not the quote unquote “cis White” name out there.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
And so, knowing that already, and seeing your email come through in an inbox, there’s already gonna be some bias, potentially, that’s already out there. So you already know, the second you answer that phone, “Let me at least maybe soften my Blackness so it doesn’t make someone else feel uncomfortable.” And that’s just conversations, at least in my family, that we’ve had here and there throughout the years. But, as I’ve gotten older and kind of, like, grown, at least in my professional career and things like that- And what I really love about our podcast is really showing that we can just- we can be successful in our authentic selves and being. But, as I grow my corporate career, I’ve kind of been like “You know what?” [chuckles] “You gon’ kinda get what you gon’ get at this point,” because you have seen, habitually, how good I am at what I do. So, if you still have issues by my tone, by the way I express something, and deem it “not professional”, then guess what? I’m gonna have to ask you to go do some other professional stuff, go to an AfroTech, to see how we talk professionally and things like that. Because, for your whole career, you’re taught to do the other side. Eh, you gon’ have to come on this side now, a little bit, to get maybe a little diverse view of how we say and do things as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JERRELL
If I could add to your question too as well: as a third parent who is helping raise three young Black men and a young Black woman, I have to- I’ve actually had this conversation with my nephew who just turned 13 this year. And he’s starting to get a bass in his voice, and he’s starting to get facial hair, and I had to tell him… I was like “You are a kid to me, but there are some other people who will see you as a threat, and it has nothing to do with who you are.” And so, for there, there are things that you are taught as mannerisms to soften the unknown that someone could possibly place on you because you are a Black person. For instance, you know, your body language, making sure that your hands aren’t in your pocket – you know? – making sure you’re not wearing baggy clothes, making sure… And I have to have this conversation. They are kids, but even when they were 4 or 5 years old, had to have the conversation. We gotta stop buying them Nerf guns because they will see them, as they get older, playing with these toy guns and then, again, there are people out there who put two and two together, that is arm Black man, although that is a child playing with a Nerf gun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
JERRELL
But them, being young Black kids, they don’t get that privilege of being able to be a kid because of the color of their skin.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JERRELL
Like, my nephew wanted for Christmas these, like, little toy butterfly knives. They’re literally, like, aluminum little butterfly- little knives. They can’t cut nothing, they don’t cut anything, they’re just called it, right? But I told him, I was like “But someone will see you doing that, and it looks like you have a weapon.” So, guess what, you could be perceived some kind of way. And so then you follow that up with… at the end of the day, it’s about coming home. You do whatever it is that you need to do to make sure that you’re able to come home, and we figure out how to support you, we figure out what to do next as long as you- after you get home first. So those are kind of some of the conversations that we have with our young Black children because there are some things that people will- You know, or there are some people who would judge them just off the color of the skin, and doesn’t matter the age… at all.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Jerrell, you menti- I think you were the one that mentioned, and I just wrote it down, “It’s weight.” I’m curious if, now that you’re older, maybe can unpack it? Like, what- What kind of additional weight or- How does this affect your… either mental health or, I don’t know, ability to navigate the world? Like, what weight has this added?
JERRELL
I mean, now that I weigh 220, I’m carrying this weight well. [all chuckle] But…
KEREL
He said with a Q, baby.
JERRELL
Look, um- Honestly- But, like, the weight is almost like… it’s almost like when you have to yawn but you can’t get it out and, the moment you do yawn, you’re like “Ugh, woohf.” It honestly- It’s something that I, being in corporate America, when I am there, I feel like I have to be playing a game of chess and I have to be thinking two steps ahead. “If I move this pawn, then my next move’s gonna be this and my next move’s gonna be this if they do this but, if not, then I’m gonna do this, this, this and this if they decide to do that.” It’s really taxing because it’s- Like I said before, it’s a game inside of a game. And, quite often, if you aren’t around other people like yourselves to give you that chance to actually clock out, you typically stay on all the time. Because it’s not until your around community that you really truly get to clock out of having to code-switch. Like, even in my own relationship, even with my partner – him being, you know, White, European – there are still some things I can’t say because it’s gonna go “Woop,” right over his head. So, even within my relationship, I still have to quite often code-switch so that way, for communication purposes, he understands what I’m trying to say.
DAWON
Let’s just be clear, this is not just a Black thing.
KEREL
That’s what I was gonna say too, yeah.
DAWON
Like, we can talk about examples from personal experience but, like, you know, think about how many, you know, White individuals that are out there that are coopting our language, our vernacular, our mannerisms, etc., in the gay community.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
Right? That are bastardizing the ball scene, right? You know. And, you know, who are, in effect, when they’re around their Black friends they put on their Black voice – right? – and they say all the, you know, the hyggery things that they would- they think is appropriate to say within those environments, right? But then, when they’re around their White friends, it’s, you know, Taylor Swift and bubblegum. [all chuckle] You know, it’s not- It’s not a one-way street. It’s not a one-way street, and it’s- And, you know, code-switching can be, you know, can have, you know, many positive impacts, but largely what we see within our community is the negative, the negative components of it, because it is a system of oppression. And this is a modality that we’ve had to leverage in order to survive an environment that has oppressed us and continues to oppress, you know, us. And when I say- And I’m using this more broadly, like, as a queer community, right? So, when we think about these terms, you know, I don’t want people to come away from this podcast thinking that this is a Black or White thing, right? Everybody code-switch? Well, let me rephrase: most people code-switch – right? – in some way, shape, or form. And their intention could be “I just want to survive.” We think about, you know, our beautiful trans brothers, and sisters, and those in between, and having to live a life in a way where their body is betraying who they are, who they really are, and having to code-switch in order to just exist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
Right? You know, it is something that we all experience, and I long for the day where these conversations are extinct, because we are operating from a mindset that… Let people show up who they are, and judge them for who they are, not what we want them to be.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
DAWON
And, until we can get to that place, we’re gonna continue to have these kinds of conversations.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and I’ll add… Yeah, I think everyone does to some degree. You walk into corporate America, you probably won’t – even if you’re White and straight – you’re probably going to speak a little bit differently than usual. And the privilege though is not to have the extra burden of additional work to do, like, mostly the way that you speak is deemed acceptable but you don’t have a too much of an extra burden placed on you, so you still- Even though everyone code-switches a little, there’s still that privilege that comes along with being White, with being straight, with fitting into the mainstream culture’s expectations of what you look like, that means that we won’t totally understand what it’s like to be Black, to be queer, to be brown, to walk into a space that they have to do work on top of that.
KEREL
And even just even within the queer community. I mean, we’ve all been in those situations where it’s, like, the straight bro, and you feel like you gotta bro it up a little bit and things like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Mike and Dawon chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
KEREL
I feel like, a lot of times, people say “Oh, it’s a hard concept to grasp.” I’m like “No, you do this shit all the time. You get it, but you just choose not to get it.” [laughs]
DAWON
All day every day.
JERRELL
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
DAWON
Look, you put somebody- If you go to the corporate scenario, like- or any work scenario, and you have the opportunity to get a promotion, you know how to code-switch real fast. You figure it out. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KEREL
Real quick. You tryna get that coin! [Jerrell and Mike laugh]
DAWON
You figure it out.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
DAWON
You figure it out. You’re like “My boss talks this way? I’mma talk this way. My boss likes golf and… whatever?”-
KEREL
Tiger Tiger Woods, y’all. [all laughing]
DAWON
[holding back laughter] -“I’m gonna figure it out.” [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, goodness.
KYLE GETZ
What about, like, queer- Like, to me, the thing that I can most identify with this is: I remember growing up and, if I let any kind of – it’s more of the behavioral, but – if I let anything slip, of things I liked, things- like, certain ways of talking that would reveal that I might be gay, I-
DAWON
Girl.
KYLE GETZ
That- I hid that-
DAWON
Don’t sit in that “s” a little too long. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Well, I think my voice changed when I stopped having to monitor it and just started talking like I talk. It, like- I think there’s so- I think everyone is like- Even my brother was like “Well, you don’t have to change or act like a different person just because you’re, like, gay now. You can s-” and it was like “Oh, you didn’t know that, all this time, was a fake version of me.”
DAWON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like “You didn’t know that who I am now is the more authentic version.” [Jerrell laughs] So yeah, I’m curious, including, like, how the, like, being in the closet kind of affected your masking or code-swit- When you’re in the closet it’s mostly masking, because you’re not- there’s no code-switching. Like, maybe online, I don’t know, on Craigslist, when I was asking to get, like, fucked, maybe there was some- [Jerrell laughs] maybe that’s when I could be authentically gay, but, like, I don’t know when else I had, to be myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
The, like- The “fake me” versus “real me” thing is, like, it’s, I think, a question that I’ll never have an answer to, right? Like, I am pretty- Like, not gross “masc4masc” way, but I think I’m pretty masculine, I present pretty masculine, and I will never know “Is that-?” And it feels natural, I don’t feel like it’s something that I’m putting on, but I don’t think I’ll ever know whether… Like, would I still be exactly like this if I had come out as a teenager instead of at age 30 and had permission to… not be this way? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Well, you’ve talked about seeing your wrist on a home movie once.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What happened there?
MIKE JOHNSON
It was a family reunion and we were doin’- My family’s weird as hell and we do, like, parades and shit, and we had a 4th of July parade, and there’s this, like, camcorder video and I’m like, 11, 12 years old and I’m holding an American flag and, like, waving this flag walking around in this parade, and I remember just being absolutely fucking mortified at how faggy my wrist looked in this video. [Dawon chuckles] Yeah! Yeah!
DAWON
Yes, queen! [all laugh] Wave that flag, bitch! Yass!
KYLE GETZ
To your credit, you were in a parade.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. That’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Which, [Jerrell laughs] you know… they set you up for gayness there.
JERRELL
It’s kind of gay.
KYLE GETZ
It’s kind of gay already. [chuckles]
KEREL
And that baton and everything. [Karel and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to ask you guys… Like, the corporate world is the White straight dude world for the most part, which is, like, super unfair and shitty but it’s true, and so you talked a lot about code-switching and masking in the context of race, but do you also go to the office and act straighter? Can you compare and contrast those functions?
DAWON
Not anymore.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not anymore?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, “Not anymore,” I love that answer.
DAWON
No. Yeah. I feel like one of the benefits of getting a little longer in the tooth is being able to step into who you are authentically and not give as much of a damn in terms of what other people think about you, because you know not only what your worth is as an individual, but you also know what your worth is, and what you bring to an organization, and that you also know that you have options. I think, earlier in one’s career, I can only speak for myself, but I also mentor a lot of other people and this seems to be a common thread. There’s a lot of insecurity, you know, because you’re doing this- this is your first rodeo, you’re building your career, you’re learning how the ropes work, how to navigate those waters, who to network with, how to deliver your work in such a way that it speaks not only highly of your team but also you and advances your career. Like, there are a lot of things that you’re learning on the fly but, once you’ve learned those lessons, you’re able to lean on that level of expertise and you’re able to navigate those waters and move a little bit differently. So, you know, for somebody who’s a little bit further along in their career, and a little bit more settled, certainly a lot more settled into the person that I am, there is no masking. I “girl” all day. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] You could be the CEO, you can be the investors, you can be the person on the street, and you can be my subordinate, we girl, and we kiki, and we talkin’ but we gon’ get this shit done, because I know how to navigate these waters. But not everybody can say that. And even that is a privilege.
KEREL
Yeah, I was just thinking, it’s just, like, when it kind of comes to masking and code-switching, for the longest there was almost this pressure and this force of having to do it. I think one thing, now, that kind of maybe takes your power back is “No, I get to decide how to play this game, you don’t get to decide how I play this game,” and determining when I need to girl it up and when I don’t need to girl it up. And it’s not because I feel some pressure from you, it’s “I am in charge of the game now,” [chuckles] and I know when it’s gonna better my hand and my situation. And I think that’s something that, similar to what Dawon was just saying, that you kind of just learn and hopefully grow into as you get a little more comfortable in your skin. And I feel like, even though I was somewhat comfortable in my skin before, it’s a whole nother level now. And… And it may be too a privilege of me having been successful and things like that. So, like, some of that comes with success, like, proving that you can do the job, proving that, you know, what you’re doing is bringing money to the company at the end of the day. But, again, me choosing how I play this game now is something that I’ve had to learn over time that, if I feel like code-switching today to get what I need to get done, guess what, I’mma do it. But it’s not because I feel some weird pressure anymore from whatever they- them is.
JERRELL
Yeah. And I consider myself a bro gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
A “bro gay”? [all chuckle]
JERRELL
Yeah. Like, I mean- And the aunties will tell you, like, I play sports all damn day. I played three games of softball yesterday, had two today, got volleyball leagues, flag football, kickball, dodgeball, did- I did all the sports. So, at work, I fit in a lot with the bros because of the fact that I love sports so much. So I don’t necessarily have to, because I already have almost a connection to that kind of- some of that bro-ism when it comes to sports. So, for me, it’s almost a privilege where I kind of get accepted because of that, and I still bring all my queerness though because I also like to use it in the moment to make sure that when I’m hanging around these straight men, that they’re also getting that diversity of queer people being just as into sports, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JERRELL
And a gay Black man can go out there and hoop with you and still dunk at the age of 35. And we’ll get out here and win a 100, you know, in less than 11 seconds with you, bitch. Or we’ll get out here and intercept your ball, or whatever the case is, in any God damn sport, right?
KEREL
He didn’t put that cheerleader outfit on [???] tomorrow.
JERRELL
[everyone else laughs] Look, [???], right? Stare you down. Like, that’s one of the things that I love about sports because, growing up when I hadn’t come out yet, that was one of the hard parts for me, was I was good at sports but I wasn’t able to share a part of me, which was my queerness, because there’s so much of that toxicity in sports. And now, being an adult, I’m like “Oh, no, bitch, I’m gonna play these sports and you’re gonna get this side of me too so that y’all know we can be just as good as y’all.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. A tiny bit of a pivot, but, I know it’s not a competition by any means and I’m very, very curious about code-switching and masking considering where you live, right? Like, Kerel and Dawon, you live in much more racially diverse cities than Jerrell who’s in Seattle, and, let’s face it, it’s cracker White here. I’m wondering if you think that that makes it easier or harder, from, like, a code-switching perspective.
DAWON
I would say that the company that I worked for is predominantly San Francisco/Seattle-based.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Ahh.
DAWON
So, from that perspective, no. [all chuckle] You know. Like, where I spend- Where I spend the majority of my week is in those spaces. So, for me, it’s less about the environment, it’s more about- I think, Kerel, you said it really well, it’s the notion of using code-switching and masking as a survival technique, versus using it as a point of leverage in order to get what I want or accomplish what I need to get accomplished, right? It’s a different of a mindset, and I’d be curious to hear what the other aunties have to say, but, for me, it’s less about, you know, the city that I’m in. Let me take that a step back: I aspire to be in a city like New York because of its diversity. You know, when I moved to New York I lived in Hell’s Kitchen first and… that’s where all the gay bars are. Gay, gay, gay all day, day. But what it was missing was flavor. Not Flavor Magazine, for those that know that. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KEREL
[???]
DAWON
But it was missing flavor from the neighborhood. And so now I live in Harlem, and I live in Harlem because I wanted an environment- Two reasons. One, because my best friend and his partner live up here and I wanted to be closer to him. Two, because the neighborhood that they that they lived in, you know, was incredibly racially diverse, predominantly Black and Latino. And so, you know, I wanted to be- When I walk out of my house, I want to hear multiple languages. I want- I love that melting pot of diversity, and so you’ll be hard pressed to find me ever wanting to move to – and, sorry about it, but – like Montana, or Utah, or, you know, potentially even Seattle. Why? Because the opportunity to be surrounded by people that look different than me, other than just Whiteness, you know, is important to me and the quality of life that I want to live. It is very, very possible to be a Black person and thriving in a predominantly-White space. I don’t aspire to do that. [all laugh]
JERRELL
And so, to Dawon’s point, I would say then to Mike’s question that it is a privilege, because living in Seattle, where I don’t have what you have, Dawon, in Harlem. You know, I get my Blackness, a sense of community, by going to the Safeway that I live above, because that’s where the Black and brown folks work at. Or, because I live near a central district, there are a couple of Black-owned restaurants I can go to and get some flavor. Okay? [Mike and Kyle chuckle] But, for the most part, I don’t get to see, you know, those who look like us. And so, to my question, I would say “Yes, the city does play a role in how often you get to clock out of having to code-switch,” because when I’m in Seattle I have to think about those same things I think about even when I’m clocked in at work. I walked down the street and I have to think about those same mannerisms that I think about when I’m at work. I have to think about how do I communicate when I’m ordering a drink or going to a restaurant that is not diverse, you know? Those same questions that I think about with code-switching at work exist in the city as well. So yes, Mike, it is a difference when you live in a city that isn’t as diverse.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m wondering: in Seattle, do you ever experience, like, pressure to be extra Black?
JERRELL
Honestly yeah, I really do. But here’s the thing: I think the pressure comes from within our community because we go so long without seeing each other. So, the pressure is more so to create a space for each other and let you know “Hey, I see you, you can be yourself with me,” you know? Like, in Seattle, in the last… probably like two or three years, there has been a shift of Black folks being more intentional about having spaces, you know, that allow us to kind of check out and be ourselves, whether it’s a brunch, or it’s an R&B, you know, like, you know, evening party, or whatever the case is. So there is a little bit of a pressure. But there’s also a pressure to also make sure that I hold allies accountable by making sure that they get to see Black folks in spaces that they predominantly operate in as well too, because you don’t know what you don’t know. And if I don’t bring my authentic self to those primarily White spaces, I personally feel I’m not allowing or helping my allies understand that we are a monolith, and there are different shades of Black, and Black people can come in different forms and ideas, etc.
KEREL
And we’re not a monolith, yeah.
JERRELL
Yeah, yeah. So that’s the kind of the pressure that I get here in Seattle.
KEREL
Yeah, it’s a- That’s an interesting question because I’ve said that since- So, I’ve moved all over this country it feels like, but when I moved to Atlanta it was the first time in my life that a city had to adapt to Black culture. Like, if you weren’t Black in that city you might be the one might need to do some code-switching and things like that. And it was incredible to see just the wide range of Blackness. Moving to Philadelphia last year, people were like “Oh, yeah, you know, it’s a Black city. You know.” I’m like “Okay, whatever, it is what it is. We’ll see when I get there,” and it’s still palpable the difference. And Atlanta’s just like its own thing in this world, I’m finding out. Like, it’s just a different city and it’s incredible. But the comeback to Philadelphia, I’m like “Oh, yeah. Ohh, yeah, this is what it feels like to actually be in reality,” quite frankly. Because you do find yourself potentially second guessing. And I’m glad I’m in this city at the age I’m at now because, again, I’m picking and choosing how I play the game, not feeling forced to do so. But I told Cory, my husband, when we moved here, I was like “It’s different. This is back to what it was before Atlanta.” So there definitely is something about potential more racially-diverse cities, living in, compared to, like, growing up in small-town Michigan. It’s definitely a true factor, but I would say there are- there is diversity, you gotta seek it out and you gotta want to find it and find those mentors, find those communities to tap into so you can just feel sane.
DAWON
But, you know what? Can we kick the question back to you all? Like, we’ve been talking a lot about our experiences in terms of masking and code-switching. You know, when you think about your queerness and you think about your own personal experience, I’d be curious, you know, what are some examples from your own personal lives where you felt perhaps a pressure to code-switch? I know a lot of- You know, Mike, you mentioned this notion of, you know, being very kind of masc-presenting, you know, and when you think about your circle of friends, have you ever felt the pressure to fem it up and maybe even leaned into that even though it might not have felt natural to you but for the space that you’re in and you’re like “I’m gonna put on some lipstick and a wig and I’mma, you know, shift my shoulders a little sissily,”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] I feel that at work, actually. So, I did a bunch of stuff last year to make myself the head gay on my team. And so, I do find myself being a little extra just to remind people, like, “We work really closely together but you-” like, “I want you to know I’m super gay.” But I also work at Salesforce which is, like, you know, a San Francisco-based company that is, you know-
JERRELL
Girl.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know. [all laugh]
KEREL
Period.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then the opposite is true when I go home. I grew up in Trump country and I, like, I butch it up, and I dress more conservatively, baggier clothes, and, you know, I really do monitor a lot more what I say and do, and that’s just- Especially now. Shit is so, like, toxic in large swathes of the country, like, for drag queens and trans people and it just feels like they’re coming for the whole community and I have the privilege of flying under the radar for the most part. And… I don’t know, it- Yeah, that’s- I’m just rambling. [Jerrell chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
You had recently sat down and had dinner with me and my parents.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m curious if you remember/noticed if I was acting differently around them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, you… You’re an enigma around your parents. [Kyle chuckles] Like, you give the shortest possible answer that answers question without, like, elaborating.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, man, maybe you sat down when I was already frustrated with them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, maybe. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
So maybe you got frustrated-me instead of, uh… Yeah. Yeah, I definitely still think about this, and it’s getting better as, like- My dad has started listening to the podcast and I’ve had to tell him to stop it, like, so at least he knows that, like, he’s heard me when I’m just authentically talking to a friend. So, I’m not- I’m still not gonna talk completely like this. I’ve, like- Every now and then I’ll drop a curse word and then, you know, look around. It’ll be like- more like a joke that I’m, like, saying a curse word, and see how they react or whatever. Like, yeah, I’m much different around family, for sure.
DAWON
I recently had this conversation with my mom, very same conversation. She’s been listening since- I don’t want to say “since day one”, but shortly after day one she started listening. And she and I were talking and she was like “Yeah, you know, you talk really differently with your friends than you do with me,” and I’d say “Yeah, mom, because we talking about dicks, and fucking, and all that stuff,” [all chuckle] “I’m not gonna talk about that stuff with you.” So the context of the conversation is gonna be completely different. Um, but it’s interesting when your parents have insight into-
KEREL
Mhm.
DAWON
Your parents know you through a certain lens, and one of the things that a podcast does is it gives you addit- it gives others additional insight into not only who you are as a person, but how you think and how you move and navigate and, you know, it might be something counter to what their experience of you may be, and so I can totally relate to your experience and having this kind of like come to Jesus moment with, [Kyle chuckles] you know, a parent about what they learned about us [chuckles] through the podcast.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! Yeah-
KEREL
Like “He was really sucking dick in that back room like that?” [all laughing]
JERRELL
[doing a mom voice] I raised you better than that!
DAWON
[mom voice] I thought I raised you better than that!
JERRELL
[mom voice] [slaps] Get some doggone brains!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I have to tell my dad everything is a lie. Oh, no, no, no, that was a lie. That was just a lie. [everyone else laughs] Everything I say on the podcast is a lie. I think it’s made me think a little bit more about what I want my relationship with my dad to be, and I want to be able to tell him some things but he doesn’t need to know the same level of detail as my friends.
KEREL
Right.
KYLE GETZ
So I’ve become more thoughtful about, like… I can. He’s listened to it so he’s open to more of me, so what do I want to share with him? What do I want to not share with him? And I don’t need him to know how many guys I fucked one weekend. Like, he doesn’t need to know that, but it’s okay for him to know that I’m-
DAWON
Yeah, I do the rest.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] But it’s okay if he knows that I’m dating, you know? Like, there- So it helped me establish a lot.
DAWON
“Dating”! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
[Mike laughs] “Dating” is the word we use. [all chuckle] I dated like 7 guys this weekend.
KEREL
Okay, “dating” is code-switching for “fucking”. Got it. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. The other piece that resonated with me, because masking talked a little bit more about, like, disabilities and people, like, hiding certain traits they have… Being depressed, a lot of – I think, similar to the discussion of gayness – like, a lot of it is pretending that you’re not feeling what you’re feeling. Like, how do I- When I interact with people, how do I bring a version of me that is happy, upbeat, lighthearted, that’s fun, that you want to hang out with, instead of what I may authentically be feeling? Which is, like… I don’t want to bring depressed-me to a party and just be like, [mopingly] “Hey, buddy. I’m gonna go sit in the corner and just look at the ground.” Like, I don’t- You know, I feel like there is a part of me that, with depression, I have to show a different part of me to people I’m around.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s fair. Yeah.
KEREL
Yeah. That’s an interesting thought, because it’s just like… What is that- What’s the terminology or the communication set that we can maybe evolve to say “Okay, I’m not okay, but I’m fine for now,”? And it’s like, “I don’t want to bring it down.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
You know, it’s like how do we evolve to saying how we really feel, but then still allowing everyone to still, if they’re in a jovial mode or mood and things like that, to still kind of live that that life and that space. So, no, I think that’s a huge conversation we need to have and I don’t know what the answer quite is.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JERRELL
That was one of the things that I had to learn with battling depression, especially the episode I had back in 2019, was I had to stop faking it. Because the moment that I was faking it for other people, I was harming myself. And I had to start saying… The only way I can show up for the people that I care about, to the best of my ability, is by being honest with them and letting them know “I can’t pour into you today,” don’t mean “I don’t love you,” I just don’t have that to give. “So, I just want you to know, I’ll see you tomorrow. [chuckles] We’ll try again on a new day.” And, if the people love you, they are going to respect that and understand “Hey, today is just not a day that you can do that.” But I had to understand that it’s okay to put yourself first, and to make sure that you put the life jacket on you first, then help the person on the plane next to you, right? Like, that saying is actually real, and especially when you apply it to your life when you’re going through depression. Because, also, I take meds as well too, but a lot of the work has to be done individually. And the only way I can truly do that work is by letting people know that that’s where my focus is.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, I think the- Like, even on days- I’m lucky, in the friend group that I have, that I have been able to be more honest with my group. So, sometimes, when I would be able to show up but I wouldn’t be able to show up as a happy, friendly, bouncing off the wall kind of person, they would be okay with me showing up and I’m just gonna sit here quietly, not talk, I’m just- I’m gonna look like I’m having a terrible time but you know I’m just in a bad place and it helps me to be here around you and not say anything and not do anything, and you all keep doing what you’re doing, keep acting- keep having fun. And me just being able to know that I don’t have to- that that lowers the barrier of me hanging out with people because I don’t have to do a ton of more work in order to be there, and they’re aware of what’s going on for me so they don’t have- they’re not gonna just sit there and be like “Let’s check in, what’s going on?” Like, they know that the check in is- it’s bad. [chuckles] Like, you know, like, you already know the answer. It’s bad. So then you can know that just me sitting here being with you, even if doesn’t look like it, is useful and helpful. And I think that’s one way- Like, letting- I think, whoever said, like, “Letting people show up the way they are, how they are, whatever they’re feeling, whatever-” like, and just being accepting of that, has been extremely useful.
JERRELL
You’re about to make me boohoo like Kerel. [Kerel and Kyle chuckle] I normally don’t boohoo. But, like, I totally understand that feeling, Kyle, and it’s… it is such a loving feeling. It feels really good when your friends just let you just be. And it’s not like… They’re not making you feel like you’re bringing the party down or you’re bringing them down. They’re like “No. I see you, you’re good, all right. Just let us know if you need anything,” and you can just process it without that extra added guilt of “Damn, I’m fuckin’ up my life, am I fuckin’ up theirs too?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JERRELL
That just- That level of love when your friends do that for you is just… it feels so good. And these two do this for me all the time, so, I just-
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
JERRELL
That’s why I was gonna boohoo, because I see the two faces that show up for me like that all the time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Tears really are good for episodes, so tell me more about that feeling. [everyone else laughs] And if you could, really get into it deep. [laughs] No, no, no, I-
DAWON
But isn’t that the power- Isn’t that the power of discussion and disclosure? Right? Because if you think about 10 years ago, or even right before the pandemic nearly 5 years ago – right? – there was not nearly the amount of open discussion about mental health, personal wellness, and, you know, seeking help, professional help, having conversations with, you know, with your doctor, your therapist, your friends, your rabbi, your whomever, you know, to unpack these things, and disclosing these things when one feels that that’s appropriate for them to disclose, and that’s a decision that they make individually. But, like, disclosing that, it- There is so much power in being able to say out loud, and being vulnerable, and expressing what you’re going through. And I think, again, this is why having a platform like this is so impactful, because we are able to openly discuss these kinds of conversations and so many people are gonna be listening to this podcast right now saying “I feel that too, what Jerrell is feeling, what Kerel is feeling-” Like, what we’re feeling, what you’re talking about, is something I’ve felt, and I haven’t heard that anywhere else. And this becomes a catalyst for them being seen and realizing that they’re not alone in their experience.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Go listen to Minoritea Report, everyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] That’s a good time to plug your show-
KEREL
New episodes every Monday.
KYLE GETZ
-for people bringing their authentic selves to a conversation. Well, is there anything else?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think we’ll- We’ll probably take a break. While we’re on break, you guys, would you mind playing a game for Patreon?
JERRELL, KEREL, and DAWON
Yeah.
DAWON
Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, we’ll play a little game and then, uh- But yeah, we’ll take a break. When we come back, we’ll do our Gayest & Straightest and all of that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Alright, let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, aunties, tell us all about Minoritea Report, what’re you up to, where people can find you… tell us all the things.
KEREL
Yeah! Minoritea Report, new episodes every single Monday wherever you listen to podcast. So, obviously, you know, the Apples, Spotifys, the Googles, all that stuff. But also, every episode’s on YouTube as well. So, if you prefer to see us visually, and see all this gorgeousness, and all this melanation on the screen, check us out on YouTube as well. We put the full episodes up there. And then, also, if you like merch, “Wash your hands, wash your legs, wash your ass,” you can get that at minoriteareport.com. So check out the merch over there as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaah! So awesome. Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
Our socials: we are on Facebook Groups, we have a Discord, we have Spaces, @gayishpodcast for everything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
And one note: we will be on Minoritea Report, so our episode comes out May 29th. So, if you want a good way to insert yourself into the listening process, [Dawon chuckles] you can get inserted at- [chuckles] on May 29th. Go take a listen and then go back to their full back catalogue. You got a lot of podcast you gotta catch up, 4 years. So, if you’re like me-
KEREL
Over 220-somethin’ episodes.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. That’s impressive. If you’re like me, that’s a good thing. It’s like “Okay, I need my thing now that I’m gonna be binging,” so you’ve got your brand new binge right here.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh, in just two weeks from now we will be at The Spot in Hell’s Kitchen on the island of Manhattan in New York City. You can see tickets for that show and all the rest of our upcoming tour stops at gayishpodcast.com/live.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I will go first.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. The straightest thing about me this week is I went to a, like- it’s my sister-in-law’s niece’s law school graduation party. Ended up talking to her dad, at length, about tailgating techniques, meaning, like, partying in a parking lot of a sports event.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know there’re techniques other than, like, get a cooler with beer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, well, like, [Jerrell laughs] you want a grill and you need, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, you got to have like a certain kind of, like, the briquettes or whatever. And, like, just had a whole spiel. Tailgating is very straight.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and then the gayest thing about me this week was, uh, I was at the bar last week and the Kraken game was on, which, that should have been my straightest, but I got super hit on by this woman who was like all decked out in Kraken gear too. And, um, I let her know that she was barking up the wrong tree by loudly mentioning my ex-husband to the bartender Barrett, who’s a friend of mine. Uh, and she got the hint.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Did she disappear very quickly after that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. And talk about code-switching, I just was like- I just, like, super gayed it up and talked about my ex, and, like, made it clear.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Nice. Uh, how ‘bout you, Kyle?
KEREL
What is “Kraken”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, the Seattle Kraken? That’s our hockey team.
KEREL
Oh, okay. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
A Kraken is like a octopus monster, kinda.
JERRELL
But it’s a troll as a mascot.
KYLE GETZ
But the troll is a mascot, it’s so dumb.
JERRELL
It’s- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It doesn’t make any sense to me.
JERRELL
Yeah. None.
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is I hosted our D&D group wearing these cute pink shorts that I busted out for summer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, they’re very pink.
KYLE GETZ
Very bright pink.
JERRELL
Cute!
KYLE GETZ
And they, like, kind of fit me because I’ve lost a little weight and so I can actually put them on. So they were still a little tight though. And my straightest are the board shorts that I’m wearing today. [Mike and Jerrell chuckle] I have both kinds of shorts, I have straight and gay shorts available for the summer.
JERRELL
[laughs] Still cute.
KYLE GETZ
Still cute, yeah! Who wants to go next?
DAWON
Yeah, so the gayest thing that I did: I had my headphones in listening to Beyoncé because I’m gonna be seeing her soon and, as one does when listening to Beyoncé, I started model walking [Mike and Kyle chuckle] in the subway thinking that I was there by myself but there was a person that was right behind me that was watching the entire thing, and I only noticed it when I did a pirouette and turned around and saw her! [all laugh] And we locked eyes.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s magical.
DAWON
She gave me the nod of approval.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, nice! There you go.
JERRELL
Yeah, yeah.
DAWON
Yeah, yeah, and then the straightest thing was I put together a grill today.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh!
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
JERRELL
Okay, butch queen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow!
KYLE GETZ
That’s impressive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like a- Like a Weber, we’re talkin’? Propane?
DAWON
A Char-Broil electric grill but it’s, like, double barrel. I had to put all the pieces together. It’s like 100 pounds. It’s-
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
DAWON
It was pretty- pretty task worthy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, good work. [chuckles]
JERRELL
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
That’s impressive.
KEREL
I would say my straightest moment of the week was… So, Dawon and I went and saw Janet Jackson in New York City. So, the opener was Ludacris and I was so- I, like, remember their damn lyric from [laughs] rappin’ the shit out of Ludacris. I was like “Okay, I’m over here extra broing up right now,” and I was over here [singing] “Got a nice package alright, guess I’m gonna have to ride it tonight.” [Mike laughs] So my straightest and gayest occurred literally in the same evening. [everyone else laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Love it.
JERRELL
Um, my Gayish is I- We’re going to see Beyoncé in a couple of weeks and I’m wearing heels with my outfit. So I actually went out on Friday night to break ‘em in. So I walked like probably five miles in these heels to break ‘em in, to get used to it, and then also dancing and everything. So that was probably the gayest thing I’ve done this week.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
JERRELL
The straightest thing I did was ask my friend for golfing lessons for a straight bachelor party that I’m going to back in Minnesota in the middle of nowhere [Kyle chuckles] in August. And so, really straight.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, somebody seems surprised. We said that golf was really straight and somebody was surprised by that and, like, how are you surprised by that?
KYLE GETZ
Golf is so straight. [Mike chuckles]
DAWON
The outfits are horrible. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah!
JERRELL
Horrible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, Kerel, Jerrell, and Dawon, thank you so, so, so much for being here. It was lovely as always to see your beautiful faces, and, uh, really appreciate the chat.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Everyone, go check out Minoritea Report.
KEREL
Well, thanks for having us, boys. Appreciate it.
JERRELL
Yeah, thanks for having us, ladies. Yass!
DAWON
Thank you!
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you to Harry Shaw for requesting this episode topic, we really appreciate it. Hope everyone learned a little something. Um, and I want to thank all of our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that is it!
KYLE GETZ
Whew!
DAWON
Woohoo!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, right? Uh, this has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
See ya next week.
KYLE GETZ
See ya.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bye aunties!
KEREL
Bye boo.
DAWON
Later y’all.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
JERRELL
[door shuts] Sorry, my friend just, uh, mooned me. [all laugh]
KEREL
Move the camera over! [all chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Pan camera left.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 332 Ketamine
Mike and Kyle talk about ketamine’s use as an anesthetic, as a recreational drug, and as a treatment for depression. Plus, Azealia Banks?!
In this episode: News- 2:57 || Main Topic (Ketamine)- 19:00 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:10:15
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour go on pre-sale starting May 1 (except NYC, which is already in pre-sale). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, Mike talks about k-holes, plus loads more on ketamine we didn’t get to on the main episode. Join Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
MIKE JOHNSON
Before we start, this episode of Gayish features frank discussion about illegal drug use. If that is something you’d prefer not to hear, or if there’s any possibility that will be a trigger for you in any way, we suggest you please skip this week’s episode. If you or anyone you know is struggling with drugs or alcohol, there are addiction and recovery resources listed on our website at gayishpodcast.com/help. And now, enjoy Gayish.
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The first direct-to-VHS podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] God. I would take that!
KYLE GETZ
Starring Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god.
KYLE GETZ
…as Lil Shrievenrickle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you a Mary-Kate or an Ashley?
KYLE GETZ
Um, whichever one was in Weeds.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and today…
KYLE GETZ
Today…
MIKE JOHNSON
Whew. Whew, yeah, gonna talk about ketamine…
KYLE GETZ
Ketamine.
MIKE JOHNSON
…on the heels of Bestiality, which everyone loved. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
This was voted on by our Patreon Gap Bridgers though, so y’all wanted us to talk about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. And, again, the Gap Bridgers and everyone else voted very differently.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, everyone else in our tiebreaker vote voted on shame so we are going to do that for our bonus episode this month for Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure are.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Uh, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
…uh, a correction.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
This one comes from Mike… Royce? I’m gonna say “Royce”. Mike Royce. “Hi, Mike and Kyle. Just a minor correction regarding AI and cows,” which at first I thought was Chat GPT but, no, he means “artificial insemination”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Just a minor correction regarding AI in cows, although not sure if it makes it sound any better than shoving an arm up the vajayjay. The lubed plastic sleeve up to the shoulder is actually inserted into the rectum of the cow and used to grab and stabilize the cervix which lies just below the rectum, then a long pipette/breeding gun containing the bull semen is inserted into the vagina and through the cervix with the other hand. Learned how to do this in college. Good times. Happy Thursday! – Mike.” [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
“Breeding gun” is what I’m gonna call my dick from now on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Watch out, fellas, here comes the breeding gun! Open up your vaginas.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
I mean rectum.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- Yeah. Rectum? Damn near killed ‘em. I, um- I didn’t- I didn’t know. Like, I grew up around cows. I had no idea that that’s like- The whole time, I thought that they were like reachin’ right up in there and ticklin’ those ovaries, but no.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know we talked about it on the episode, so I didn’t [chuckle] even know there was a correction to be made.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I for sure- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I for sure talked about it.
KYLE GETZ
I mostly listened to you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [chuckles] And now the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckling] Speaking of listening to me…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah? I have to do that for a bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the first. Okay, we’re gonna talk about South Korea.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, for a long time, South Korea’s biggest annual LGBTQ pride celebration has been held in the same place in the middle of Seoul. And there’s performers and rainbow costu- like, everything you would expect out of a Pride festival.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, this year, the Seoul Queer Culture Festival has been turned away from the venue. And, instead, it’s going to be hosting a Christian Youth Concert. And, uh, the festival organizers are crying foul. They say that this is discrimination and-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Plus, you don’t want a cult there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [Kyle chuckles] Right. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
What’s the difference between religion and a cult? Time.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, what happened was the organizers for both the festival and the concert applied to use the plaza venue from June 30th to July 1st – this is according to the government of Seoul – and both groups were informed of this and offered to change dates. Like “Would you consider changing dates?”
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] “Do you want to change Pride?” [chuckles] Like, that’s not-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right. And because neither of them said yes to changing dates, it went to a civic committee. So their- The government said “Okay, well, then this committee of people is gonna have to choose which one”…
KYLE GETZ
Uh-oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
…and they sided with the Christian concert. The civic committee prioritizes, quote, “events related to children or teenagers or those that have other value in the ‘public interest.’” So it’s- It gets worse. So it’s not like it’s a, like- I don’t know. It’s not like a Taylor Swift concert in disguise or something. This is Christian broadcaster CTS which vocally opposes homosexuality, vocally opposes Pride festivals in general, according to Reuters. So, they’re saying that the concert was specifically organized and specifically targeted that date to accomplish exactly what they accomplished, which was displacing Pride.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s fucked up. Especially, like, it’s- Like, the decision in and of itself is clear and direct homophobia, because it believes that religion is more important than, like, you know, gay kids feelin’ cool about themselves. And then you add to that the intentionality of this…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. And, I mean, things aren’t super-duper great in Korea anyway. Like, they’re- You know… Asia in general has sort of a long ways to go when it comes to LGBTQ stuff and policies, and Korea’s no exception. But uh, there are no comprehensive anti-discrimination laws, for instance, in South Korea. And, at least according to The Advocate, things are worse there for gay people than in Japan or Taiwan, um, in terms of acceptance. So, anyway, sorry about it, Korea.
KYLE GETZ
That really sucks. Especially when it’s, like, an event – you know, an annual event – that like they should just be given priority every year to be like first right of refusal or something, because it’s Pride. It’s fucking Pride.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fucking Pride.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that happens every year at the same time. Like, it’s always then.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I keep thinking about like the Pride parade here in Seattle, for how long now, has ended at the Space Needle at Seattle Center for PrideFest. Can you imagine, like, you just get so used to it…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…rolling in there on Sunday of Pride and here’s a [chuckles] bunch of fuckin’ Christians singing about Jesus hating gay people.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. It’d be like opposite world. [Mike laughs] We’re like “Wait, this is exact opposite of what we expect here.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ugh. Anyway- And just the whole, like, “It’s not us, it’s this random group of people that we picked from a whole pool of generally homophobic people,” [chuckles] right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, ugh. Just the “Sorry. It’s not us, it’s these people.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s just- I hate that.
KYLE GETZ
That sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That really sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, news the second. Before I do news the second, I wrote down here a thing that I just had a quick thought. And I’ve been having a lot of anxiety lately that, like, it’s uncomfortable for people to hear what’s going on in the news, and especially trans people because things are particularly fucked for them right now, and, like, is- is it okay to just, like, week after week after week, keep saying this like horrible shit that’s going on? But, um- And then I keep thinking about this thing that happened at work last week that I’m gonna talk about more later, I think. But, uh, we had a team in my org that launched this whole thing based around “Which Harry Potter house are you a member of?” and I, like, I lost my shit. I talked about it in the happy hour. I, like, lost my shit and they pulled it down, and they stopped doing this thing and issued this big apology, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the person that was behind that is actually the head of our LGBT group in Israel, which is where the team is based. So it made me realize that, like, I don’t know- I don’t know if he’s an ally or a member of the community but, either way, he’s heading the queer resource group in that country and doesn’t know better, had never heard of JK Rowling being transphobic, had no idea that Harry Potter could be triggering for trans people and that it is inappropriate in a work context. Anyway, so I- I keep thinking about that and how, like, we’re sort of in a bubble, and I don’t know if everybody even fucking knows what’s going on. And the need to let people know overrides whatever potential discomfort there is in having to hear how fucked up shit is another week in a row.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Well, I mean, especially, like, our audience is a lot of people that are similar to us because that’s just naturally who, like, listens to shows, is people that feel like you can relate to. So I think, amongst our audience as well, like, it’s helpful to keep people up to date on what’s going on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Okay. Alright. Well, um-
KYLE GETZ
And you also bring in positive trans stories as well. So you- It’s not that it’s only the doom and gloom. There’s also good things that happen in the trans world, in the trans community, in the LGBT community, and I think you bring in both news stories from time to time. So-
MIKE JOHNSON
But, man, some weeks is fuckin’ hard. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Some weeks- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which makes sense. Like, and- Like, there’s something about, like, you don’t want to, like, just pretend like “Oh, let me give equal – you know – time to good and bad,” like, because that’s not- that would feel just wrong to try to pretend like it’s equally good and bad out there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But there’s like a little bit of “You gotta give ‘em hope,” you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know, I think you do a good job balancing, and this is what the news segment is. And you can kind of expect that, so…
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and you do a good job of putting in the timestamps. In the description of every episode there’s timestamps and if, like- If you find news is just triggering, or too depressing, or you just, like-
KYLE GETZ
Or you’re listening to back episodes and you don’t need to hear what happened in like August of 2021. Like, I don’t know. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, yeah. Skip forward. Just skip forward.
KYLE GETZ
Just skip to the main topic, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, so, news the second. So, there is the Church at Ponce & Highland in Georgia – it’s an Atlanta – which is, in general, is an LGBTQ-supportive church. They changed their reader board sign outside the church to say “GOD LOVES TRANS KIDS”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Cool, except that-
KYLE GETZ
Uh-oh. Except for what’s gonna happen next.
MIKE JOHNSON
-when people showed up for church on Sunday morning, somebody had spray painted-out “God” and substituted “PEDOS”. So it said “PEDOS LOVES TRANS KIDS”, which, that’s not even grammatically correct, you fuckin’ dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Gotcha! [both chuckle] Grammar. Technicality.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but yeah, TV station WAGA reported that the sign was defaced. Reverend Mimi Walker, who’s the senior pastor, told the station, quote, it’s “Sad that this is a part of the conversation in our culture that people feel the need to react with such ugly messages,” “It’s offensive.” “We believe god loves all people,” “In particular, God loves the LGBTQ community and trans community who are not seeing that love in all places in our culture.” So the church, you know, they band together and they went and fixed the sign and reported the matter to police. This is the first time that they’ve had their sign vandalized, even though they have posted pro-gay messaging before, pro-LGBTQ messaging before. They have had their pride flag stolen several years… Um-
KYLE GETZ
Maybe it’s just a kid who needed a pride flag.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, maybe.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks church. Free pride flag! Ooo! [both chuckle] Yoink!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s kind of a good idea, to hand out pride flags.
KYLE GETZ
Right? Yeah, just a free- [chuckles] “Hey, they’re waving a free pride flag for me.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but she said, quote, “We’ll continue to keep putting out our message of love for all people. That power that we have is to keep putting out the positive messages that here is a safe [space]-” “place” “…here is a safe place,” “We are going to stay true to our commitment to care for those around us. There are people in communities who support them and love them and know that god loves them as well.” And we talk about religion a lot on the show and-
KYLE GETZ
Sorry. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, it is-
KYLE GETZ
…For my jokes about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not- It’s not all religions. There are- There are queer-affirming churches out there who are doing their best, and they are, I think, you know, in this very contentious friction point in culture. So I- I just want to catch a church winning.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, even though this shitty thing happened to them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. The religious people that I respect are the ones that, I think, say that like “If you’re not getting any kind of discomfort or pushback, then you’re not pushing the message of God’s love and what that means hard enough.” Like, if everyone’s just kind of like “Sure, okay,” then you’re doing whatever the easy version of… you know, God and what he actually meant. You know, when he said “Love everyone,” he didn’t give a little asterisk and say “except LGBT kids,” or “except trans kids.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
He just said “everyone.” So, like, I respect the people that are trying to put the real message of what God meant out there and… and then take the flack for it and do- and then, when that comes up, then keep pushing it and not let up. So, I res- I very much respect that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Good. Good. Me too, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re on the same page.
KYLE GETZ
Yay, religion!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yay, religion! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Wow, 180! We love religion! It’s only good, always.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] …Well, I don’t know. [both chuckle] Uh, news the last. So, known bisexual actress Drew Barrymore has announced that she’s-
KYLE GETZ
She’s bisexual!?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s what The Advocate says.
KYLE GETZ
Not known t- Advocate?! You make assumptions of me. I did not known that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Cool!
MIKE JOHNSON
But she’s no longer going to be hosting the MTV Movie & TV Awards on Sunday night because she is, uh- she’s stepping down in solidarity with writers who are on strike.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
She had an interview in Variety and she said, quote, “I have listened to the writers, and in order to truly respect them, I will pivot from hosting the MTV Movie & TV Awards live in solidarity with the strike,” “Everything we celebrate and honor about movies and television is born out of their creation. And until a solution is reached, I am choosing to wait but I’ll be watching from home and hope you will join me.” And then you already- You reacted the way that I reacted: “Drew Barrymore’s bisexual?” [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Wow. I know. And- Well, I mean, the fact that Advocate says “known”, like, clearly this isn’t a brand new revelation or anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] She also hosts The Drew Barrymore Show, [laughing] which, did you know that, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
So much I’m learning about Drew Barry- What else about Drew Barrymore, Mike? She’s a Capricorn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um-
KYLE GETZ
She loves… daffodils.
MIKE JOHNSON
…I have nothin’.
KYLE GETZ
That’s all there is to know about her. That’s fine.
MIKE JOHNSON
She- Well- What was that? She showed David Letterman her tits once.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
At least once.
KYLE GETZ
At least once. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
On national television.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, but who- who among us hasn’t, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
She did say that she’s still on good terms with MTV, that she will be back for the 2024 Movie & TV Awards, assuming that they want to have her. She said, quote, “I thank MTV, who has truly been some of the best partners I have ever worked with. And I can’t wait to be a part of this next year, when I can truly celebrate everything that MTV has created, which is a show that allows fans to choose who the awards go to and is truly inclusive.” So, Drew Barrymore. She-
KYLE GETZ
Bisexual. Just killin’ it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bisexual. So we’re doing our part, the opposite of bi erasure.
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
She’s bi bi bi bi bi bi bi bi. Bi bi bi! Anyway-
KYLE GETZ
What just happened to you right then? [both chuckle] Were you doing NSYNC or a different thing that I didn’t understand?
MIKE JOHNSON
All of them.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, great!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I have- [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
You sounded like a clip of every time NSYNC said “bye”, but done yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah. I-
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was magical.
KYLE GETZ
Speaking of magical things…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
…I want to thank the following Patreon members.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks!
KYLE GETZ
Thank you to- Thanks! [Mike chuckles] Later. Uh, thank you to Brian M. …I’m going to take a swing and say “Mor…neilten”. Morneilten!
MIKE JOHNSON
Morneilten!
KYLE GETZ
I’m takin- Man, if I get that right…
MIKE JOHNSON
Of the Cleveland Morneiltens?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Oh, yes. North Cleveland, obvi. [Mike chuckles] Uh, Vegard? Vaygard? Veegard?
MIKE JOHNSON
Vegard.
KYLE GETZ
Vegard. That sounds like the leader of a cult if I’ve ever seen one. Um, Ember Keeler. Ooo, I love that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
I like that.
KYLE GETZ
That rolls off the- Hey, Ember.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Ember Keeler”, that sounds like maybe a drag queen’s name?
KYLE GETZ
Oh! That would be a good drag name. Um, and… mynameisnotric. [Mike chuckles] All one word. mynameisnotric.
MIKE JOHNSON
Another “Wehadababyitsaboy”.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. Thank you, ric. Fuck! Dammit! The one-
MIKE JOHNSON
Not ric.
KYLE GETZ
The one thing!
MIKE JOHNSON
Not ric!
KYLE GETZ
Damn, fuck! Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Thank you, not ric.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you, not ric. If you want to, join Patreon. You get bonus episodes, episodes a day early, no ads, and you can join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast. And, we are doing a new thing that is available to anyone, not just Patreon members, but it’s available on the Patreon site or in the Patreon app. It is this spotlight where we just recently interviewed Brad Shreve from the Queer We Are podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
He had a really personal and intimate interview that I really appreciated. And, before that, we had done an interview with Queers in Your Ears, another podcast. So, both of those are available publicly. You don’t have to join, you can just listen to our interviews of podcasts. And maybe we’ll do more of these where we interview other podcasts and learn about them and what they do, um, available to everyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. We have some pretty great people in our lives now who we can interview and get some interesting stuff but, like, doesn’t make a whole episode or necessarily fit into something that we have on the schedule. So, this is a way for us to still, like, put that content out there and get them the spotlight.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s why we’re calling it “spotlight”, Kyle. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah. And I don’t know what- I don’t know. I think we’re in this weird spot where we are big enough that people notice us, but still a small- Like, it is still three people trying to run this entire thing. We’re not like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, some people are like “To the assistant’s assistant…” It’s like… no.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s not- Like, we’re j- So, we get a ton of requests for, you know, interviews and people that wanna- will do things. So this is another avenue to kind of get content out there.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] It’s funny when people write in, and then I write back, and then they write back and they say “I can’t believe you wrote me back!”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m like-
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
As opposed to, like… my army of secretaries?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both chuckle] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But yeah, join Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Join Patreon. You also get 50% off live show tickets, Patreon folks, so fuckin’ do that!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The code’s in the app.
KYLE GETZ
Or on the website.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Do you wanna…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about ketamine, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I’m nervous about this one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you? Can you say more about that?
KYLE GETZ
It’s- It’s just a really big issue right now in the queer community, and so it’s one that, like… if we fuck up, like, farmers… I don’t know. [chuckles] Like, it just feels like it’s a different- Which, I think we got some nice comments from actual gay farmers on that episode. I don’t know why that- But, like, if we fuck up a different thing, if we fuck up talking about like… I don’t know, whatever- If we fuck up talking about balls, like, it’s not, you know, gonna mess somethin’ up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Whereas-
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, I have a couple of those.
KYLE GETZ
Balls?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Kyle chuckles] So, like, I’m at least that way.
KYLE GETZ
You have the experi- Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s currently zero ketamine in my home, but I do have balls.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, you know.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know. This one… I don’t know, feels a little bit heavier and more important to get right, so we’ll do our best.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’ll do our best. Well, I was gonna start with, like, “What the fuck is ketamine?”
KYLE GETZ
Sure!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Um, so, ketamine, if y’all don’t know, is a dissociative anesthetic. So, it was actually invented to put people out for surgery, like propofol which is also known as milk of amnesia. And they were- They were trying to find a way to make a different anesthetic which is phin- phenc- Fuck. …Phencyclidine, but also known as PCP which is the street drug “angel dust”. It was causing too many, like, complications. It was doing the job of, like, putting people under so that they could have surgery done on them but there were too many hallucinogenic effects to PCP and it wasn’t necessarily always safe. So they were tweaking that and that’s how they came up with ketamine. So, ketamine is just a couple of atoms different than PCP. So it’s the same class of drugs-
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
-does basically the same shit to your body. That’s- That’s the thing. So, it was… first synthesized in 1962 by Calvin Stevens. He was a professor of chemistry at Wayne State University and a consultant for a company called “Parke-Davis”. And they- He first started doing preclinical research in animals, and that’s how ketamine came to be used in a veterinary setting, which is gonna come up in a weird way later.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But uh, it works quite effectively on most mammals as a way to put them out. So horses, dogs, cats, it was being used by veterinarians. So we got a bunch of data that way, and then this is a thing that- This sentence, they just threw this sentence out there and, like, left it there. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, “ketamine was tested in human prisoners in 1964.” So-
KYLE GETZ
That feels… [Mike chuckles] like something that happened in the 60s. Like “Hey, prisoners, we don’t care about you! You don’t count,” like, “Let’s test shit on you.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
I- Clearly- I don’t know. I don’t know anything more than you do, but, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
I read a 2010 paper [Kyle gasps] from the Journal of Anesthesiology called “Taming the Ketamine Tiger” and it talked about how they- they did this. And, at least according to this, they say that they asked for volunteers. They got 20 volunteers, [chuckles] in prison, to take ketamine and monitor them and see how it worked out. So, like I don’t- I don’t know. Like-
KYLE GETZ
That feels- The power dynamic there-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah exactly! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
-feel very odd. Like, okay, what? Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly right. Yeah. So, like, um-
KYLE GETZ
Or maybe they fuckin’ loved it. I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the thing: if you’re in prison… shit’s probably pretty boring.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, what would you do to spice up your day? [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I guess if someone was like “Hey, do you want to try drugs?” I- No… I- Yeah, I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Uh, so- But we got a lot of data about ketamine just out of that study asking for um, uh… volunteers. So then, uh… initially they were- they wanted to call ketamine anesthetic- people experiencing ketamine anesthesia, they wanted to use the verb “dreaming”. They were saying that that’s how they wanted to describe the state that it put people in. Um, but Parke-Davis, the company that was behind all of this stuff, did not approve of the name. And, uh, so, Mrs. Edward F. Domino, [TN: Mrs. Toni Domino] who was the wife of one of the pharmacologists, suggested “dissociative anesthesia” and that stuck. So, apparently, if you’re married to a pharmacologist you can just, like, throw shit out there and they’re like “Yeah, that sounds good.”
KYLE GETZ
Are you sure she’s not married to a pizza delivery company?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Right, yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
I’m skeptical of that. I thought you were gonna say “the wife of Mr. Domino”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Like “the wife of Fred Domino”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. Edward. Ed Domino, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Ed Domino. Um, so, after all of this stuff, then- Uh, yeah, “dissociative anesthesia” is the is the thing, and it is now classified as a “dissociative anesthetic” along with a bunch of other stuff.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a smart name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, so FDA approved it for use in humans for anesthetic purposes in 1970 and it was first rolled out by the government and given to American soldiers during Vietnam.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, some of the reason is, a lot of other substances that we used to put people under for surgery slow the heart rate down, lowers the blood pressure, and, depending on what else is going on for that person, that can be super dangerous.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it turns out that ketamine doesn’t do that.
KYLE GETZ
Doesn’t it do the opposite.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ketamine actually can make your heart rate and/or blood pressure go up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So it’s especially useful in like a field hospital trauma situation.
KYLE GETZ
Whew.
MIKE JOHNSON
And so they started using it on American soldiers during the Vietnam War and it went on from there. The thing is: the FDA approved it in 1970, and by 1971 it was being used recreationally enough-
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that it made it into- This blew me away, this is crazy. There was an underground comic about a fictional trio of stoner characters who would go around, and hijinks would ensue, and their whole dynamic was to see how many different kinds of drugs they could get their hands on and then do all of these drugs together. The name of it was “The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers”.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I thought you were gonna call it- it would be like “K-marmaduke”, or “K-maduke”, or somethin’.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not- Well…
KYLE GETZ
Beavis and Butt-Head and their friend Ketamine Joe.
MIKE JOHNSON
[both chuckle] Ketamine Joe.
KYLE GETZ
[in a goofy voice] “I’m Ketamine Joe.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god. Or, like, “Ketamine” as the name of a pet.
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
Or “Katamine”. Oh, it’s “Katamine”!
KYLE GETZ
Katamine!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Sure. Um-
KYLE GETZ
Meow.
MIKE JOHNSON
But yeah, The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers was- it started in Austin, Texas in an underground newspaper called “The Rag” in 1968 and then eventually got big enough that it was being published as its own thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But yeah, that- They got on that quick, both, like, the recreational use and it just appearing in, like, pop culture. That’s a quick turnaround.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So-
KYLE GETZ
And I didn’t realize it had been around that long. Like, we’ll talk more about, like, recently it’s become even more of an issue in the queer community, but, like, that-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s been around for a long time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
It really- It really, really has. So, like a lot of drugs, ketamine sort of flew under the radar as far as, like, the law was concerned and regulatory concerns. So it took a while for it then to get illegal, or at least reg- you know, put on the different schedules, like the FDA’s Schedule II – it’s now Schedule III, I think – and the equivalent in other countries. But part of it is, it got popular in the 1990s within rave and club scenes all over the world. Of course, in the United States, which you’re gonna talk about recreational stuff a little bit later, but apparently adult film star Joey Stefano died in 1994 from an overdose. He was in some gay porn, I understand. I might have gotten that wrong, but I think that he was a gay porn actor. So he- Yeah, he died in ‘94 from an overdose of ketamine, and that sort of kicks off a renewed “Oh, maybe we should- Maybe we should lock this shit down,” wave, you know, of legislation. So, in Australia, it’s a controlled drug under the Poisons Standard. In Canada it’s a Schedule I narcotic since 2005, which seems kind of late to me. It took India until 2013 to add it, and that was only after there was a string of date rape that was tied to ketamine. In the UK they regulate it as a Class B drug – that means something, I guess – in 2014. But uh, it’s been controlled in the United States as a Schedule III drug since 1999. So, weirdly, we were ahead of the curve on- [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Wow! Since when does that happen [chuckles] in the US?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, I’m gonna talk about k-holes in the Patreon segment.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But uh, do you- Let’s- Do you know- Can you name some names, some street names for ketamine?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t know any of ‘em?
KYLE GETZ
“Special K”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Special K! “Special K” is number one, and the most common that’s used. When it first started becoming recreational in the late 60s and early 70s, it was called “mean green” or “rockmesc”.
KYLE GETZ
“Rockmesc”?
MIKE JOHNSON
R-O-C-K-M-E-S-C.
KYLE GETZ
Huh! That’s like a good wrestler name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, “Special K” or just “K”, “kitty”, “ket”, “K2”, “vitamin K”, “super K”, “honey oil”.
KYLE GETZ
Aw! [chuckles] That sounds like a- like a vegan… I don’t know. That’s sounds too adorable to be this, like…
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
…dangerous drug.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “jet”, “super acid”, “mauve”, “special LA Coke,” “purple”, “wacky dust”, “rhino benzo”, “wonk”, “cat Valium”, “knod-off”, “Skittles”, “blind squid”-
KYLE GETZ
Skittles…
MIKE JOHNSON
-“Keller”, Kelly’s Day”, “new ecstasy”, “psychedelic heroin”, “bump”, or “majestic”. Also there’s a mixture of ketamine and cocaine that gets called “Calvin Klein” or “CK1”.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, in Hong Kong, they call it “kai-jai”. But yeah, that’s sort of the history of ketamine where it comes from, but I was surprised to learn that there’s, like – well, not surprised, I guess – there’s nothing natural about it. It is 100% created in a lab. So they, like, use test tubes, and bubbling, and churning [Kyle chuckles] to make to make PCP and then they take PCP and they further refine it and it becomes ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting. Yeah, wow. Um, yeah, so I’m gonna to tell you more about the recreational use.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
Before I do though, I will mention: I will also be talking about the medicinal uses there are. So, like, I’m gonna talk about kind of the negative and harmful types of uses, and there are also very promising therapeutic…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…especially to treat major depressive disorder, things that I have personally considered because of my depression and the same clinic offers them. So there are both good and bad so I’m starting with the bad, but just know there’s more to it than just this one thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, like you talked about, it’s an anesthetic. So, like, there’s lots of other uses. But, for recreational use, the one study- There’s- I couldn’t find a study that specifically narrowed it down to gay men, except for one that focused on, like, gay men at clubs. Like, this really specific thing that was going to then say, like, you know, “97% of gay men use it,” or something that, like, just felt like it- It wasn’t the one that I wanted to just grab.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Like, did it feel like, you know, Seattle has Hempfest so they, like, “Turns out 98% of people do marijuana!” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
It felt- Yeah, very, like, misleading and not gonna give us a good general overview. So, what I grabbed is this study called “Past-Year Ketamine Use: Evidence from a United States Population, 2015-2019” that was published in 2022 by Dr. Andrew Yockey in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Dr. Yockey” sounds like a dealer. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
“Hey, hit up my friend Dr. Yockey. He’s gotcha covered.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] This is recent, it’s new. This is fresh off the presses, sort of.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, just published. Like, everything- You know, it was collected from 2015 to 2019 but then it takes time to, like, assemble it and publish. And this is one I could not get access to all the details, but it doesn’t matter. I’ll just tell you what the- what they found. They estimated that .13% of adults have used ketamine in the past year in the US.
MIKE JOHNSON
Point-one-three?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Which is interesting because a different study showed that, in 2019, which is included in this but not- But, you know, that .13 includes, you know, more years. Just in 2019, about 1% of US people 18 and up reported using ketamine recreationally in the past year. So, the latest data that I have is from 2019. What did I say? Did I say “1%”?
MIKE JOHNSON
.13%.
KYLE GETZ
.13%. In 2019 it was 1%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t- That’s the latest data I have so it’s possible – my guess, based on what I read – is it is increasing in usage.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s like 3 million people.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe 2019 was just a wild year. I don’t know. But it seems like usage is increasing.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We should time and tell them to wait until 2020. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Well… Okay, so, actually, I will jump to this: Rachael Bennett, [TN: Raquel Bennett] a psychologist who had studied the drug since 20- 2002, said in a Rolling Stones article that I read “I spent the first 16 years of my career trying to convince people to use this tool,” because it’s- you know, there’re good effects that I’m going to talk about later, “I spent the last four telling people to stop and exercise restraint.” And she said that there was a big spike of reports in ketamine addiction since the pandemic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
So I think people did resort to drugs, including ketamine, during the pandemic, which makes sense. Like, shit was hard and we were all coping doing whatever we could, and that included…
MIKE JOHNSON
Wine.
KYLE GETZ
Wine- [Mike chuckles] That included box wine for me for sure, that included weed, that included drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that, was part of it. Um- I mean, and for me as well. So- And others. So… Back to the study though. So yes, it does say that it does seem to be increasing. In the pandemic, people did get the note and start, you know, goin’ for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But, um, at least back to this study, the people that are more likely to use- men are more likely to use it. Other risk factors that indicate, that can- or, you know, tied to increased use, are past-year drug use – so, if you use any drugs, that make sense – and, this is where we come in, sexual minority status. Um, the highest-risk people they found were sexual minority males who had reported using more than one substance.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Yeah, I mean, that- Here it is, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But that, like, checks out…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…with what I know of the scene.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I read something else that was not just ketamine, that was about any kind of these either party or sex drugs that people use, and it- there were other people other than gay men. Like, we tend to be the ones that get focused on in this conversation, and it was saying, like, there are other people that use drugs during sex. And so it’s not just gay men, but it did confirm that it- But gay men are among the most likely to do it, so the targeted message towards them is fair-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-and is warranted, and it is useful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So it seems like this is- it is the right- this stereotype at least is correct. It is the right- targeting the right callout, the right thing that we as a community need to watch out for.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-huh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I’m gonna talk about some of the risks and harm-reduction ideas. So, risks: you talked about, um, just the dissociative state and what people call a “k-hole”. Like, that is because you get side effects like delusions, like visions. You can get into these – if you use too much – dissociative states that can, it said, for some people, feel euphoric and, for other people, are like terrifying, and scary, and like you’re not in your body, and- Um, so that’s one of the risks. There’s a risk – you know, it’s a drug – high tolerance and dependency. There’s- Other side effects could be cramps or permanent bladder damage. So, in harm reduction, if you feel like you have to pee a lot more or if you see blood in your pee, that’s when you know you should see a doctor, because it can cause bladder damage.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow. I’ve never heard of that even a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s insane. Okay, go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. There’s also, and we’re hearing about this a lot in Seattle and a few of the- the, uh, fentanyl.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, it’s a story everywhere but I- but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m hearing about that a lot here. Just, there’s a risk of fentanyl combination. So, fentanyl is a painkiller that is found in hospitals, also manufactured for the black market, and it is very potent, 25 to 50 times more potent than heroin.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So it is, like- I’ve seen the comparison of the size of dose or whatever, and it is a tiny dose of fentanyl. So that’s the risk.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, some people use fentanyl on its own, sometimes it’s found in other drugs. It can be mixed into drugs like heroin or oxycodone because it’s a cheap alternative, offers a sedentary high, so it can be cut-in…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…you know, potentially to help, like, with the profits of people selling drugs. It’s also found in cocaine, which, they didn’t know what the- Um, you even mentioned it on your list, of “CK” as one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There- So it sound- If there’s a- They said there are two- People disagree on why it’s found in cocaine, either intentionally mixed in to create its own drug- It has a different name, that seems like that’s a realistic possibility.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But this article didn’t say for sure. Or, accidental. If you’re- This is where I don’t know the details of drug dealing or how it works. If you’re doin’ your drug stuff with fentanyl, they don’t- you’re not, like, going to sterilize all your equipment or wipe it down, and a little bit of fentanyl, if that gets into cocaine, could be accidental.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Sure. Sure, sure, sure. There’re even, like, anecdotal reports of, like, accidental overdose because people just, like, handle something that has fentanyl in it-
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and didn’t know that it had it in it and then, like, I don’t know, touched their eye or something.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. So, one of the harm reduction ideas is testing your drugs, is making sure. If you’re going to do it, test it to make sure that it is pure and not- does not contain any fentanyl.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t even know how I would do that. Like, can I run to the drugstore and get, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, go to the police. [chuckles] Ask about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. “Could you test this for me, please? Thank you.”
KYLE GETZ
There are devices you can use to test.
MIKE JOHNSON
Cool.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know any more than that, but yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, anyway, that was a lot about fentanyl, but that is the risk, that there could be, you know, fentanyl is included in this, that there’s- that could be deadly. And overdose on ketamine alone – death from overdose on ketamine alone – is rare.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
So let’s not say it doesn’t happen, let’s just say that that part is very rare. The risk though, the big risk, is whe- And studies say that most ketamine emergency room visits and deaths involve mixture with other drugs like alcohol, like opioids, or other stimulants. So, I mentioned some of the harm reduction ideas but other things that came up when looking this up- And the idea being I’m, like, a big proponent of harm reduction, but we haven’t just, like, mention- in all aspects of life, not just drugs, but the idea being, like… people will continue doing drugs. For some people they don’t even have a choice, they don’t want to, it just is part of it, or people may make the decision that they’re gonna keep doing it, whatever. People are gonna do drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I would rather you know how to be safe while doing that, if you are going to choose to, and stay alive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Rather than us not- like, pretending like abstinence is the only way to do it and then you’re like “Okay, then I don’t- then I’m just gonna do whatever,” and then not know and you accidentally mess up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, some harm reduction suggestions: eat at least two hours before you use, stay hydrated, so drink water or electrolyte drinks. This can help with the bladder damage that I mentioned. The idea that mixing ketamine is more the cause of emergency room visits or overdose… either avoid or try to reduce mixing ketamine with other substances. So, mixing ketamine with depressants can contribute to an overdose, mixing ketamine with stimulants can increase your heart rate and blood pressure so put pressure on your heart. Leave at least 30 minutes before doses if you’re going to, especially if you don’t know how it affects you, how much it affects you. That gives you enough time to feel it out and decide if you do want to do more. Do it with people you know, one of the risks- because the risk is becoming disoriented or disassociated. It talked about- And this is, again, what I really like about just acknowledging what happens. So, if you’re using it during sex work, if you’re using it around people you don’t know, if you’re using it around strangers, if you’re using- Like, those- that becomes a little bit more- Just be aware that you may not be in full control when you do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, it does make it a little bit riskier, so be around people that you know and trust. And one article suggested provide psychological support in party spaces, which, like, that, I was like “Really?” Like, I’ve never heard- I’ve never heard- Like, that would be very cool if you could have like a doctor on hand at places you know- Or, I don’t even know. Psychologically, you could have like a… I don’t know, a therapist to talk through if you’re dissoc-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know what that means, [Mike chuckles] like, or how we would do that exactly, but it was like-
MIKE JOHNSON
The next rave I throw, I’m gonna have, you know, somebody show up. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yes, exactly. But that was like a- That’s like a smart- Like, it just hit me as like “Oh, no one would ever do that,” and I was like “Oh, wait, but that’d be a really smart-” Like, you know, a volunteer healthcare worker. I don’t know, someone that could just be like “Look, I know…” Let’s just have someone on hand. So I- Again, I’d rather reduce- I’d rather a harm-reduction approach. Anyway, I thought that was an interesting suggestion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
But those are risks and harm-reduc- There are other harm reduction ideas, especially depending on the type you use, if you do, like, you know, snorting, or booty bump, or, you know, do various types. There are other suggestions, so make sure to read up on-
MIKE JOHNSON
…”Booty bump”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s where you put it in your butt.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Neat.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [Mike chuckles] Yeah, all of the drugs you can go through you can go rectally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah. I mean, you can butt chug booze, apparently. We learned that, so…
KYLE GETZ
You can put a lot of stuff up your butt if you really want to. [Mike chuckles] But that creates, like- I think when- It was like when- That can damage, like- That puts you at high- If you do a booty bump and then having sex, like, that can put you at higher risk for STIs because then it’s more likely to, you know, like, kinda… I don’t know the word.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It, like, makes surfaces more, like, open to getting the STI in there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the least medical way that I could describe that, that’s the risk, so it’s suggested, if you’re gonna booty bump, have someone do- wear a condom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Huh! Well, thanks for that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
I agree with you on the harm-reduction shit, by the way. Like, I think, you know, abstinence-only is such a puritanical, horseshit, Christian thing, like, about all kinds of stuff: sex, booze, rock’n’roll, dancing… I don’t know. But-
KYLE GETZ
And, with drugs, it makes you feel- Like, if you do- To just say “Stop cold turkey…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…that’s a lot for some people, and, um, it…
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s a lot of shit that you can’t stop cold turkey, like it will kill you to stop cold turkey.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes. And it’s- It makes you then- If you, like, ever use again, or relapse, or- It doesn’t- Like, you- It doesn’t- You can’t quit the first time. It, you know, usually takes multiple times to try quitting something before you can, then it makes you just feel like a failure if you do it again.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So it, like- It helps say, like, “Okay, let’s make this safer. Let’s reduce the amount of times. Let’s make su-” you know? Like, it’s- I absolutely think it’s a much better approach to all things, including drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah! For sure. Yes. Yes!
KYLE GETZ
Yesss.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, well, I’m gonna- I’m gonna tell you about Elijah McClain.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you know that name?
KYLE GETZ
Nope!
MIKE JOHNSON
We should. And, like- Like a lot of folks that fit this situation, we just- there’s too many of them to count. Anyway, he’s a 23-year-old African American from Aurora, Colorado who died six days after a violent police encounter. And so- So, on August 24th-
KYLE GETZ
Okay, yes. I’ve heard the name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Yeah- Uh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But that’s about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and because of the timing of it also… Like, George Floyd was sort of the big flashpoint that really got, you know, “Say his name.” We said his name a lot while we were marching, right? Like- And this is roughly the same time period, right? So, um, uh… anyway. So, August 24th, 2019, there were three Aurora police officers and they made contact with Elijah McClain because an Aurora civilian had called in a tip that said that there was an unarmed person wearing a ski mask that looked sketchy. And all three of the officers that responded said that their body cameras were “knocked off” in the struggle with McClain and that’s why there’s no video – or, clear video – of all of this stuff.
KYLE GETZ
That should be automatic firing. Like, if your bod- Body cameras are such a useful tool that we need for police, like- Ugh. Talk about harm-reduction…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So, the caller- The caller definitely said that he did not believe that the person was armed, and that did not believe that anyone was in immediate danger, but wanted to call it in anyway. All he had done was go to the convenience store to get an iced tea for his brother. So, he was forcibly held to the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back…
KYLE GETZ
So there’s clearly a step where they assumed it was him as the dangerous person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, yeah, so- So, they approached him, they made contact with him. So, then, he seemed to have been- Well, he’s believed to have been listening to music at the time because he didn’t immediately respond, he didn’t immediately comply to police instructions-
KYLE GETZ
Aw, jeez.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and was kind of flailing around his arms, waving his arms around. And, um, his family-
KYLE GETZ
Which could just be, like, walking and moving or… what if you’re skipping? What if you’re, like- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
His family says that they think he was just dancing.
KYLE GETZ
Or dancing. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But the family also says that he would wear a ski mask from time to time because he had a blood circulation disorder that caused him to chill easily. He would get cold easy, so he would do that. So, the police report says that he “resisted when confronted by police officers.” One of the officers shouted “He’s going for your gun,” so they slammed him into a wall and then they wrestled him to the ground and handcuffed him. Then they did a- what’s called a “carotid hold”, where they tried to choke him out, because he was “resisting arrest.”
KYLE GETZ
Quote, unquote.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, uh, it’s… One of the officers said that he would have the police dog bite him if he didn’t settle down. Anyway, so- So- There’s a whole bunch of stuff, but, uh, then, because of the protocol involved, they called the paramedics. And they said to the paramedics that he was “acting crazy” and that he was “definitely on something” because he had “incredible, crazy strengths” when they tried to restrain him. And, uh, so the paramedics showed up and injected him with 500 milligrams of ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, apparently, is how they roll in Colorado, and is not the only jurisdiction in the country where, like, you might have an encounter with police and get fucking injected with ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
That’s wild that you can use that in that situation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Without consent, without- Like, just… The police said “Yeah, he’s a crazy person, calm him down,” and that’s the paramedics’ go-to.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, also, the medic at the scene estimated that McClain weighed 220 lbs. and that was why they gave him 500 mg of ketamine. Uh, dude was 5’6”, only weighed 140.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, should not have received more than about 320 mg of ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, if any.
MIKE JOHNSON
If any. There’s a neuroscientist named Carl Hart, who’s the chair of Columbia University’s psych department, he said, quote, “Why anyone would be giving [anyone] ketamine in that circumstance is beyond me.” “The major problem here is we should never be ordering any medication, and no one should be taking or given it against their will.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
About seven minutes after he received the ketamine he had no pulse in the ambulance, went into cardiac arrest, he was revived but was later declared brain dead, and was taken off of life support less than a week later. So- But this idea that, like, a- you can have a contact with police and be deemed “out of control” and they inject ketamine into your system to, like, put a stop to it, especially when it’s not exactly a safe drug, that people, especially with cardiac conditions, can react to…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And if you can- Like, if someone lets- Police I’m not gonna give any benefit of the doubt, they don’t deserve it, they haven’t earned that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
A paramedic, if they just – benefit of the doubt – completely misjudged… Like, if you can be that off by just eyeballing someone, that-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You don’t want to be in like “Oh, I eyeballed this person and I accidentally was off by 200 milligrams.” Like, that’s- You shouldn’t be able- Like, a mistake shouldn’t be able to be that catastrophic in this situation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I totally agree. And, you know, how much of that was amped up by, like, you know, three big white police offi- I don’t know, I assume they’re white.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was an assumption.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Eh. Good one.
MIKE JOHNSON
But three police officers are telling you, like, “Yeah, this guy’s crazy strong. He’s out of control.” Like, do you kind of, like- Does your mental math then- Like, are you biased by that report and so you, like, you know, kick it up a notch?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And, I mean, in general, black kids are seen as older, as more threatening as more violent, just by the way they look, not by doing anything else there. It’s like the adultification of young, black- especially young, black, boys. Like, I could see that, just by the virtue of him being black, people assume he might be bigger, stronger, fighting back, when none of that is actually true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Now- I looked, and I looked, and I looked, and nobody said Elijah – he went by Eli – nobody said Eli was gay. But he was definitely queer in that, like, an interesting dude kind of way. And I don’t- I don’t know, he seemed- He seemed kinda gay, to me.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Why?
MIKE JOHNSON
First, he’s really handsome, which is great. Like, that means you’re gay- or, in my opinion. But, as a teenager he taught himself guitar and violin, graduated with a technical degree from a college in Denver, got a job as a massage therapist, he was a vegetarian and known as a pacifist… his sister said, quote, “He was a really good person. He didn’t argue with anybody. If you tried to argue with him, he would just say ‘I love you’ and walk away.” His colleagues at Massage Envy, where he worked as a therapist, said that he always followed the model- or, he followed the motto “always with gratitude.” He would draw pictures for colleagues, perform headstands in the corridors, would wear barefoot running-style toe shoes so that he could feel closer to the ground, he would regularly sing or dance for colleagues or for clients, and he also took regular trips to a local pet store where he would play the violin for kittens who didn’t have homes.
KYLE GETZ
Aww, that’s adorable.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, his ear piercings, just his general- Like, his vibe… I- I don’t know. He seems pretty gay.
KYLE GETZ
But isn’t that, like, literally what we talk about doing the opposite of? Like, you just described a bunch of stereotypes that- none of which say he’s actually gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Is it- Is it because those are less masculine things, that make you assume he might be gay?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
Eh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, the segment about- The segment that I wanted to bring was just all of the different ways that ketamine can be used. Apparently “injected against your will by paramedics who got called there by cops that were freaking out” is on the list.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which… that seems so fucked up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So fucked up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. That’s- I had no idea that they could even do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Well, another use…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Let’s turn it around.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s turn it around.
KYLE GETZ
Another use is, uh, for treatment for depression. And what I used in my- Previous, I mentioned the Rolling Stones, but now the credit. Rolling Stones article by Delilah Friedlander which came out this year, 2013- 2023.
MIKE JOHNSON
2023.
KYLE GETZ
Um, I used my clinic that I went to, because they offer both the brain magnets that I got and ketamine treatments. So I use their info, and Wikipedia, to tell you a little bit more about this as a device for treatment. It seems like a- Especially for people with major depression, it seems like a very promising option and that’s one of the things I mentioned up front, that there’s good to it as well because, for people with major depression, oftentimes, if you’ve been get to the point of going to therapy or taking medication, we have a lot of stigma around those things. But if those things don’t work, some- I didn’t know that there are lots of other options available. I didn’t know about TMS, which is the brain magnets, what I lovingly call “brain magnets”, which is the option that I did. That was one of the many options that I didn’t know were available to continue treating. And so, just knowing there are additional options past- You know, especially people with medication-resistant depression, like me, like, to know that there are more things beyond that, that isn’t the last kind of option to help, is very comforting. Or- I don’t know. At least you know you can keep trying.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s fairly new, right?
KYLE GETZ
And it’s new.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, all of that was new. I went through this with someone in my life, not too long back and, at that time, it was ECT, electroconvulsive therapy, or TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation. So it was either seizures or brain magnets, were the two things for treatment-resistant depression. And uh, ketamine was not yet an option, not on the list. And I guess psilocybin mushrooms is also on the list now, of, like, now there might be four options.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that one- At least at the clinic I- It is not an option there. I know they’re testing it in Portland, they’ve got some studies going and there’s potential for there to be additional testing going on, so- So, right now actually, ketamine is ahead of psilocybin in- at least in this one clinic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And so that’s part of what I want to say, is, like, I’m gonna give some specifics about treatments and this is very specific to one treatment. So I’m not promising that this is everything, I just want to give examples of what a ketamine treatment could look like.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
So there’re- From this Rolling Stones article, the author said, quote, “Many associate ketamine with escapism, and the drug is classified as a ‘dissociative.’ Yet while K distances me from my feelings, often what follows the high is a re-association: I return to sobriety with the dots of my mind and body connected differently, helping me adapt to an ever-changing world.” And I thought that was a good personal account of what is the value of this. That’s what I felt on shrooms. Like, there- After, like- After having done that I had realizations that I could not have gotten without them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, one 2018 paper said that ketamine was, quote, “arguably the greatest breakthrough in the field of depression in over 60 years.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Whoa, that’s a…
KYLE GETZ
That’s a bold statement.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a bold statement.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. So, three options that I will go through, one is IV ketamine. This is where, compared to the others, you tend to receive a larger, non-psychedelic dose of the drug intravenously under clinical supervision. And, in the Rolling Stones article, they said “often while reclined in cushy chairs, listening to curated playlists”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw!
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
I wonder what goes on the playlist.
KYLE GETZ
I wonder what goes on the playlist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Would they ask me “Do you want Taylor Swift on there?”
KYLE GETZ
In which case…
MIKE JOHNSON
And I have to figure out: do I?
KYLE GETZ
Do- Do you want, maybe- If you could dissociate a little bit and kinda reconnect the dots, maybe you would finally get it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe the dots would connect and you’d be like Taylor Swift.
MIKE JOHNSON
One treatment away from being Swiftie, who knew?
KYLE GETZ
Artist of a generation, [Mike laughs] I didn’t know it until this moment. Maybe they’d put Britney on there for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it’d be like [in a wobbly voice] “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” [Mike chuckles] Um, anyway, they do- They do all of this to relieve symptoms of depression. Effects are experienced right away. And that was a common thing that I saw even in the recreational use of, the effects tend to be experienced right away, which is very different than other drugs or treatment options.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Even with TMS it took weeks to start to feel- of daily appointments to start to feel the effects.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Like, when I went on Lexapro a million years ago it was like 6, 8, 10 weeks to feel better.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Jesus.
KYLE GETZ
Some medication takes time to build up. Yep, yep. So, research has shown that treatment- that a treatment course of IV ketamin- ketamine could be up to 70% effective in alleviating depression symptoms, including the reduction of suicidal ideation. What that might look like, the clinic that I went to, they do 60 minute sessions two times a week for six treatments, followed by maintenance treatment if you have good results. So, they kind of figure out first does it work for you and, if so, then come up with a plan. The results tend to last seven to 10 days, although for, it said, “a significant minority”, the improvement may last for 30 days and longer. So, you know, there’s a kind of a window of effects. And, for some people, it could last longer than a week or longer than a month.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, unfortunately, insurance does not cover IV ketamine treatment. Again, that’s a generality, I would presume most of these newer things…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, insurance doesn’t want to fuckin’ cover anything, so-
KYLE GETZ
Right, yeah. [Mike chuckles] If they have any excuse not to, yeah. The second one is ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, that’s taking a smaller amount by either lozenge or nasal spray and then- What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Nasal spray?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, ‘cause, like, you’re not gonna, like, “Oh, here, do a line of ketamine,” you know? [Mike laughs] Like, you gotta do it another way that’s more, like, medicinal, so nasal spray is the other.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I just- I never considered, like, you know, hav- Like-
KYLE GETZ
Can you imagine your therapist just, like, getting together- [Mike laughs] getting her credit card out and just like making you a little line, giving you a straw? Like, “Alright, sniff up.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, on a harm-reduction thing it mentioned not sharing, like if you use something like a straw to, like, do a bump of it, like, not sharing that. Which, I didn’t know that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t know either.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know not to share. Whoops. So, ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Uh, so what- You take it and then you engage in talk therapy, which helps rewrite thought patterns while your mind is more receptive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm, mhm, mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, it creates a dissociative experience then that can help patients access emotional and psychological material that otherwise would be challenging to discuss during therapy. And it helps you get new insights on your depression while talking to a therapist. The plan at the clinic that I go to propose a series of preparatory sessions then a series of two hour medicine-assisted therapy sessions in the clinic, each followed in the days after by a one hour integration session. Uh, and they recommended an initial course might look like five to eight sessions.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay, an “integration session”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, it’s like after- So, like, after you’ve had the experience and to kind of help process it. I think it’s- I think, recreationally, it can do similar things, but the value of having- This is why that recommendation was to have a person there. Like, if someone can help actually, like, “Let’s talk about this and process this,” just like with anything in life, it helps to have a professional help you do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it’s also- Like, you’re dosing responsibly, you know, with kind of safeguards in place or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And, actually, safeguards in place I mention- When I- I don’t know if it changed, it’s been a while since I’ve talked to them about this option. The requirement though would have been for me to go get the nasal spray myself, and have that on hand, and bring that to my therapy sessions. They weren’t allowed to do it for you, and I didn’t like that risk of, like, “Let’s have ketamine sitting around.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So that’s one of the reasons I didn’t pursue that anymore. The IV… eh, no that’s too- I don’t have good enough insurance to pursue the IV. Like, some of these, unfortunately, are cost-prohibitive, which sucks when you’re depressed, to, like, have that be another thing to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, like, the other one, insurance generally does not cover ketamine-assisted psychotherapy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm.
KYLE GETZ
The last- Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm! I’d hang on to it for you, if you wanted me to.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’s a good idea.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, continue on. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh. No, I’ll have to- I’ll have to think about that and figure out if that’s a- would be a workaround.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
There’s also esketamine, which is- there’s the brand name-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s the Italian version. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
[doing an Italian accent] Esketamine-a! Aye, ma mia! [speaking normally] Um, the brand name is “Spravato”. At first I thought that was a tennis player. No, Spravato. Um, Sparatova. It is not ketamine, it is chemically related to ketamine and administered as a nasal spray. So, even though it’s not ketamine, it falls into this kind of category. It’s a new antidepressant. Unlike- Again, unlike other antidepressants, most people feel better after the first or second treatment. It works in 50 to 70% of patients with treatment-resistant depression.
MIKE JOHNSON
Whew!
KYLE GETZ
And it is the first FDA approved therapy to work for treatment resistant-depression with almost immediate effect.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, wow.
KYLE GETZ
So those are just some of the options that are out there, some of the uses for- and promising uses for treatment-resistant depression.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow… We live in the future, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
But we also live in the, like, in the stone ages because, like, there are these options that then either insurance won’t cover or they- We still have to, like, convince people to let us test, like, you know, psilocybin. Like, it’s- It sucks that it’s like…
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and in this country, there’s the whole, like, largely Christian horseshit of, like, “Mental health isn’t a thing.”
KYLE GETZ
Right? Yep
MIKE JOHNSON
Like “Just do better.”
KYLE GETZ
Yes, and our, like, kind of abstinence view of drugs in general. So, like, it’s harder to get something like this approved to be tested.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, it’s just- Yeah. It’s- Yeah. It’s advanced and feels, like, behind the times at the same time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I get that. Yeah, for sure. [someone briefly blows a raspberry] Alright, well, I’m gonna talk you about Azealia Banks.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both chuckle] Whenever anyone brings up Azealia Banks it’s like “What did she say this time?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that true? I-
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t really follow her.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I don’t know that much about her. So-
KYLE GETZ
The song “212” is one of the best songs maybe ever in the world. Um, uh, that’s hers. I don’t know any of her other music, but yeah, she’s known for saying bullshit and she’s always just caught in these- Like, she says shit and then gets in trouble, or gets in feuds, or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, um… yeah, apparently she got in trouble with Swedish people once.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Like, literally there’s probably a li- You could list the people she hasn’t gotten in trouble with, and that would be shorter.
MIKE JOHNSON
She made fun of the potato famine and pissed off the Irish… she, like- It just- Anyway, it’s really, really, really interesting to me. I don’t know anything about her at all. But, uh, she is bi. She’s bisexual. And she told the New York Times in an interview, she said, quote, “I’m not trying to be, like, the bisexual, lesbian rapper. I don’t live on other people’s terms.” Anyway, so she posted to her Facebook page a picture of herself with what appeared to be blood running down her face and head, and then people freaked out about that, and were making fun of the picture, and making fun of her choice to post that online. Which, they- She then came back and she said that the picture was of a religious practice, that she worships the goddess Yemayá. There’s an emphasis- There’s a tick mark over the last “a”, so it’s- I would say “Yemaya” [like “yuhm-EYE-uh”] but, because it’s on the end, like, it might be “Yemayá”. [like “yuhm-eye-AAH”] Anyway, the patron spirit of motherhood and rivers, of the Yoruba religion. So yeah, she was claiming “This is just my religion, you’re making fun of my religion. You’re, like- You’re being terrible people.” And I don’t understand how she made the leap from that to posting a meme that said that gays are appropriating horse culture because they wear harnesses, use J-Lube, and do ketamine [Kyle chuckles] because that’s a that’s a veterinary thing. It’s used extensively by veterinary science to put horses out so that they can do- perform surgery on them. But yeah, she said, quote, “Mainstream gay culture in a nutshell, yet y’all have the nerve to tell ME — THE HERBAL PLANT BASED GODDESS — that I need medication for believing in my goddess. THE HILARITY,” “Don’t fuck with me bitches. We can do this culture war all day and I promise you that I will win. Goodnight.” And it’s just, like, gays are “appropriating horse culture”, “harnesses, ketamine, obstetrical lube”… that’s- That was her choice. [chuckling] That was-
KYLE GETZ
That’s kinda funny. Oh, were people mad at her?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It said it was queerphobic, that it was, um, uh… One person, like, did that whole “announcing their departure” thing on her social media. Quote, “Stopped following today,” “Girl if you believe in what you claim to believe you wouldn’t act this way.” Um, one fan said, quote, “Clearly you are not a gay man and are misrepresenting a subculture. As a gay man, I find this absolutely offensive. But I don’t hold hate for you, it indicates to me that you are upset and are in pain. I’m sorry you feel that way.”
KYLE GETZ
God, I fu- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
I fucking hate this- There’s this whole new wave of, like, when responding to trolls being like “I see you’re hurting.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I- It’s just so disingenuous. Like, I’m f- I don’t know, I just hate that, like, “I can tell you’re- from your comment that you yourself are hurting, and I hope that you learn to love yourself because I’ve learned to love myself.” Like, people post these whole diatribes to someone and I’m just like… I don’t know, barf. I just- I fucking hate it so much. [Mike laughs] It’s just- But you get to respond- If I support Azealia Banks for saying we’re appropriating horse culture, I support the person too saying that “You must be in pain,” and “Love yourself,” or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I just-
KYLE GETZ
It’s weird that that one got more of the reaction from me than the horse one, but I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, if a gay man had made that joke would that be different? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just the, um- I think it’s the deflection of it all that is most interesting.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a weird- Like, has nothing to do with this image you posted or your religion at all. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, was it mostly gays that were giving you shit about the- the religion thing? Also, I mean, the picture with blood all over her is a little disturbing, but, um, it’s not, like, jumping her shit about it. Like, if that’s her religion then go for it, right? And, um-
KYLE GETZ
Or is it, like, trying to use gays as a s- Like, this this part I don’t like. You’re right, if that was a joke someone – especially a gay man – made, that horse th- I think that would be funny. It’s- Like, the part that I dislike is, like, “Oh, you’re coming at me? Let me throw gays under the bus.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Like, why? Yeah, you’re right, the weird dis- not connectedness of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, well, Pink News said that the meme- they traced it back, and that it came from a gay meme Tumblr blog. So, it- We were making fun of ourselves when we put together this idea.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then she jumped on it and- I’ll end with this. Pink News, man. Sometimes the way that they write their articles is just fucking fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
Said “Yes, this really happened. No, she’s not horsing around here, and really did post that meme on mane,” M-A-N-E. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
Pink News… I can tell you’re really hurting. I can feel it from here, and just because you don’t love yourself doesn’t mean you have to lash out like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, Kyle. Did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did we talk about ketamine?
KYLE GETZ
We did.
MIKE JOHNSON
We did.
KYLE GETZ
We did.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, a whole bunch.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and we’re gonna talk more about-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we’re gonna talk about K-holes and-
KYLE GETZ
K-holes and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna tell you why, like, Murray Bartlett is probably super into ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know who that is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah you do.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Umm… I have a couple of other things that I can tell you about.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. More ketamine in the Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I gotta be- I gotta- You’re- I’m on the edge.
MIKE JOHNSON
Of glory.
KYLE GETZ
You’re edging me for when we’re coming back.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back! [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
You motherfuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Hello, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayishpodcast.com/live. We’re doing a live tour. We’re probably coming somewhere near you, unless you’re in the south. Houston’s the best we can do.
KYLE GETZ
We are coming big, we’re coming hard, six times, somewhere near you. Look up where we’re going. We’d be excited to see you. Live shows are always so much fun. You’ll get a drink with it… min’s one, let’s be honest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, and yeah, take a look at the schedule. Gayishpodcast.com/live.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, bring your Gayest & Straightest and you’ll walk away with some merch maybe, if you want to share.
KYLE GETZ
Oohh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’ll be fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ummm… Also, Local Gay Bar Review.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo. What can follow the 5 out of 5 dildo review?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s find out.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about the balcony club in Boise, Idaho.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhhh!
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re gonna do it together, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve been there! Twice.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’ve been there with me, even.
KYLE GETZ
With you, when we did our live shows at Treefort.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So, we were just in Boise for the Treefort music festival-
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and we went to The Balcony Club for Dragfort-
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and, um-
KYLE GETZ
Dragfort pulled talent, they did both years that we’ve been, but they pull some really great talent. They have some really great artists perform. So that, the show part, I will give overwhelmingly positive reviews.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I agree. I absolutely agree. It’s a really big space. Like, a surprising massive space with a cool, like, wraparound balcony outside.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, when the weather is warmer, is a good place to like hang out.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Or when you’re, like, warm or have social anxiety like me, you could just go stand out there and be like “I’m probably doing something.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And compared to big city bars it’s pretty affordable, um, if you ignore the fact that, like, the cover, if you weren’t- if you didn’t have a Treefort pass, was like super expensive.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but, uh- But, uh, yeah. I really- I think Boise is lucky to have that space. Now, don’t know if it’s true, but uh, apparently straight people own it, and there’s a lot of feelings about that.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So- It also was, I don’t know, pretty packed and I didn’t see a lot of, like, different kinds of people.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m inclined to give it three and a half dildos.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! that’s great. I, uh, did not get laid, and a lot of people were there their boyfriends. So I felt a little bit of- just that night, a little bit of… You know, that’s fine. Everyone can show up with their boyfriends if they want to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah! Great. Our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] We are- We have a Facebook group, we have a Discord, we have Spaces, we’re on Instagram. You can find all of our social media info at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Uhhh, Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, do it!
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is: I went to the Mariners game.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, you did. How was it, by the way?
KYLE GETZ
It was- You know what? It was a lot- So, what we did, instead of going to our seats, we went to a bar that was near our seats so we could stand up. We- I, like- I always hate- I’m a large person that is too wide for most seats, so I don’t fit, so I got to, like, actually just stand up and have some room to move around. So I loved that. I went with our favorite fag stag, Doug Antkowiak, whose birthday it was.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
Happy birthday, Doug.
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy Birthday, Doug.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and his wife’s birthday too. Happy birthday, Britt. But that part was fun. Hung out, drank, like that. There was a game going on… Sometimes I looked over and was like “Oh, interesting.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you have garlic fries?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
No. I’m disappointed. Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
I just had large drinks. [chuckles] Um, and, when- There was somethin’ real ex- Like, in the 8th inning, everyone started screaming and got really excited and someone made me give them a high five and I was like “What happened?” and everyone was, like, laughing around me because we, like, tied it up in the 8th inning or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, my gayest is: I was like “Oh, it’s the 8th inning, people are excited and they’re gonna stay. I’m gonna take this opportunity,” so I left, like, right when it got tied up and everyone was like real exci- We were losing to the Astros the whole time. Right when it got tied up I was like “Cool. I’m leaving now so I can get a bus and I will be, like, too packed with people trying to escape.” So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Lots of people leave at the 7th inning stretch, regardless of what’s going on. [chuckles] Just like “Fuck this, I’m out.”
KYLE GETZ
I stuck around a littl- Yeah, I stuck around. So, I at least got to be there for an exciting moment. I don’t know if they won or loss at the end of it. I didn’t- That’s also part of the gayness. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Great.
KYLE GETZ
They probably lost. That’s how thing-
MIKE JOHNSON
Gay.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] What about you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the straightest thing about me this week was: I went to- There’s a bar here called “CC’s” and the first Saturday of every month is fetish night and I went early. I – like, for years I’ve been doing this – go, and not wear gear, and just, like, go early, and get a spot at the bar, and drink, and then, like-
KYLE GETZ
Because, after a certain time, they only let people with gear in, and so you- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, but I think showing up to fetish night not in fetish gear is my straightest.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then, much to my disappointment, they were like “You have to leave,” [Kyle gasps] “If you don’t have gear, you have to leave at 8.”
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, at some point that changed. My, like, just go and enjoy, is, like- that’s not allowed no more.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, um, yeah. Anyway, so, the gayest thing about me, besides, like, wanting to throw a hissy fit when they said that I had to go… [Kyle chuckles] because, like, there’s definitely a screaming, like, queer inside of me that just wanted to, like, go off.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t, by the way.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the gayest thing about me this week is, um- is, uh, weighing myself every day because Pride.
KYLE GETZ
Oh no, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know.
KYLE GETZ
Do we need to talk about that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm, eh. We can talk about that in our Patreon bonus episode about shame.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, boy. That’s- Yeah, unfortch. Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, this week we have a listener’s Gayest & Straightest, in voicemail!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
RICHARD [voicemail]
Hi Mike and Kyle. My name is Richard, I’m from South Africa. I have spent the last 4 months catching up on 6 years of Gayish and I absolutely love its [???], the candidness you guys approach the show with, I love the humor, I love the seriousness, everything. Uh, my Gayest & Straightest for this week: my straightest is organizing a golf day for work, and my gayest is organizing a Pride Outside hike for the community that I live in. So, thank you, keep up the good work.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you, Richard from South Africa.
KYLE GETZ
I love when Gayests & Straightests are mostly compliments for us. [Mike laughs] That’s my gayest: I prefer compliments over your actual- No, those were great ones. And, also, people-
MIKE JOHNSON
Golf is super straight.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. One of the straightest options.
MIKE JOHNSON
And “Pride Outside”? I love the idea of Pride Outside, that makes me happy.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s a really cute idea.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, plus, like- [chuckles] They’ll hear this in… another four years once they’re all caught up with, like, [both chuckle] all of our episodes So, like, at some day you’ll hear it.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s it!
KYLE GETZ
That’s it!
MIKE JOHNSON
We did an episode on ketamine, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
We did, as voted on by y’all. So thanks for voting, and join Patreon to help vote on our topics.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, do it. Thanks, Patreon?
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you- This is me. [clears throat] A-he-hem. Also, thank you to our Super Gap Bridgers. I’d like to thank Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañ…ez… [Mike chuckles] Wow, I don’t know what happened there. …Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for your support.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you very much for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it.
KYLE GETZ
See you next week.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bye.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
KYLE GETZ
[singing to the tune of “The Edge of Glory” by Lady Gaga] I’m on the edge whorey, and I’m bangin’ everyone that’s a duuuude. I’m on the edge of whorey, and I probably will bang youuu tooooo. I’m on the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge. I’m on the edge of whorey and, holes? Well, I have two.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 331 Bestiality
Homophobes often include bestiality in their slippery slope arguments as to why LGBTQ people don’t deserve equal rights. Well, let’s talk about it.
In this episode: News- 3:27 || Main Topic (Bestiality)- 13:18 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:12:08
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour go on pre-sale starting May 1 (except NYC, which is already in pre-sale). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
Join Patreon! Available benefits include getting ad-free episodes a day early, weekly bonus segments, monthly bonus episodes, and lots more! See all the cool perks at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that was recently cast as Holding Cockfield in the upcoming intercrural porn “Catch ‘er the Thigh”.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] You said “cock” and I immediately thought rooster because today’s gonna be a clucksterfuck. [Kyle chuckles] I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and-
KYLE GETZ
And, boy, a clucksterfuck it is gonna be.
MIKE JOHNSON
Boy, yeah. Hey, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Hey, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
This one’s gonna be ruff! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Can I leave yet, or do I have to do this episode with you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, yeah, we’re gonna talk about bestiality.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about bestiality.
KYLE GETZ
Or “bestiality” [saying it like “best” rather than “beast”] as the British lady I listened to said a whole bunch in her podcast. But, um, yeah, we’re talking about bestiality and-
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about bestiality.
KYLE GETZ
-there’s good reason. It’s been- I just want to say this in the episode: it’s often connected to gay shit as, like, the slippery slope argument. So, like, this is why we’ve done topics like incest, like pedophilia. We talk about them because they are things that are thrown in our face as to why we don’t deserve rights.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, it’s interesting. People- Someone in the past- On Twitter, someone, like, you know, that sent, like, in our DMs a MAGA flag and was like “You fuckin’ suck. You’re a pedophile,” because of… Jeffrey Epstein, and was like- because of him, and it was like “You mean that straight guy, that’s a pedophile?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like, “That’s a bad example.” Anyway, they- He, like, pointed out like “You talked about pedophiles,” and it was like… Yeah, we’re allowed to talk about the insults that are thrown at us. There’s danger in it, because then people can say “Look, you talked about it and that’s proof of something. I don’t know what, but-”
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, r- Okay, really, we talk about whatever the fuck we want to because it’s our fucking show.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. That’s true. [Mike chuckles] So, yeah, if you’re- If this offends you, fuck off. But, anyway, that’s- We’re not there yet. Don’t fuck off yet.
MIKE JOHNSON
But first?
KYLE GETZ
But first.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s some feedback.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, feedback in the form of an iTunes review.
KYLE GETZ
Uh-oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
The title is “SASHA COLBY” in all caps. “Not caring about the finale and don’t even care to ask!? Haha whaaaaaaaaack We get you don’t care for dragrace but put some respect on Sasha Colby!” One star. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Damn, alright. Hey, if you’re okay with the fact that we don’t care about Drag Race, go rate, review, and rubscribe because that helps us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Please- Please help us undo that one star review, y’all, just ‘cause… just ‘cause.
KYLE GETZ
Speaking of “We can talk about whatever we want to our podcast…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I guess- But then, people get to rate however they want too, so I support your one star review. It’s- This is w- I don’t feel bad about one star reviews that accurately, like, say like “Here’s a thing about your show.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And they’re like “Oh, yeah, you’re right.” And if you wanted a big Drag Race review this is not the place to get it, so you correctly assessed that we are not the people for that. So, I-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like the dude that got pissed that we shit on Cleveland! [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I just don’t care about you, Cleveland. [Mike laughs] Anyway.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, now the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the first: dickbag fuckface assholes in Montana, Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mkay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright. Yeah, sorry, we gotta talk about Montana again.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Two weeks in a row. Um, Montana Governor Greg Gianforte has signed into law a bill banning gender-affirming care for trans minors. So, it will take effect October the 1st and it has been called, quote, “draconian” by the Human Rights Campaign.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
But really what I want to talk about- It’s not significantly different from the, like, shitload of other states that are doing very similar things, right? Like-
KYLE GETZ
So equally horrifying, then.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it’s- [chuckles] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, it is interesting that he did that despite the fact that he has a gay nonbinary son.
KYLE GETZ
Damn!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
“Fuck you…” I guess “…my son.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. David Gianforte, who is 32 years old and is the son of Republican Montana Governor Greg Gianforte, came out as nonbinary and is lobbying his father to veto anti-LGBTQ legislation. He spoke with the Montana Free Press a few weeks ago, and he uses he/they pronouns, and came out to his family as gay in 2021. And he set up a formal meeting and read a statement that he also provided to the newspaper. Quote, “Hey Dad. Thanks for setting aside time to meet with me, it means a lot to me,” “There are a lot of important issues passing through the legislature right now. For my own sake I’ve chosen to focus primarily on transgender rights, as that would significantly directly affect a number of my friends … I would like to make the argument that these bills are immoral, unjust, and frankly a violation of human rights.” They asked him about it later, he said “I do have a family relationship with my father that I’m trying to preserve,” “I felt that the best way to go about this would be to reach out to him in a more formal manner. And he was very willing to meet with me,” but apparently not do a fuckin’ thing different. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Can you imagine, like, having your son and being like “Oh, wow, I’m gonna directly hurt my son,” and still passing something like-? That’s- Man, some people’s love is not unconditional.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And that sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
He said, quote, “It’s bizarre to me to read the press release that my father put out,” “He talks about compassion toward children, the youth of Montana, while simultaneously taking away health care from the youth in Montana. It’s basically a contradiction in my mind.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And he publicly supported Representative Zooey Zephyr, who’s the trans woman that they ousted now from the house.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh, anyway. So, just, Montana, get your shit together!
KYLE GETZ
Fuck you.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] And like 17 other states in the last 2 weeks.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Most of the United- Fuck off, most of the United States, I guess.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the second. So, in the United Kingdom, there has been a push by a organization called “Turning Point UK” or “TPUK” and they have been protesting a pub called “Honor Oak Pub” who has been hosting family-friendly drag events. So, they’ve been going and protesting trying to prevent people from going to these drag shows. Turns out that TPUK is actually an offshoot of an American far-right group. So we’re exporting this bullshit, apparently.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Sorry, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, at their latest attempt here just yesterday – so, over the weekend – apparently counter-protesters showed up and they outnumbered the protesters and drowned out all of their chanting with George Michael songs.
KYLE GETZ
[both laugh] I love- That’s beautiful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. It’s in- This is in southeast London in a, uh, I think neighborhood, called “Lewisham”. Um, which I hope that I pronounced right, because seems like a lot of really old British names, like-
KYLE GETZ
We’ll get some emails that are like “It’s pronounced ‘LEWSH-a-MEE’!”
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
And I’m like “Thanks, wouldn’t have guessed.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So, it’s a drag story time and brunch and the host is called “THAT GIRL” and she-
KYLE GETZ
That’s a great name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. She put out the call and said, you know, “It has come to our attention that there are plans to protest another of our events … I would like to thank you all for your support at the previous two … we cannot do this alone … we are calling on you again to stand with us against this bigotry.” And so I guess the police kept the two groups separated from each other, and it just- I don’t- It’s literal fuckin’ Nazis, Kyle. That’s what’s happening.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, when you’re standing there and you look around and you see like a Nazi symbol, you’re in the wrong spot. It doesn’t matter where you are, get- Leave. You’re not- That’s the wrong place to be. You’re on the wrong literal side of, [chuckles] like- You got- Get the fuck out of there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Literal Nazis are agreeing with you, get out. And it’s- I think- I’ve seen so many times that the counter-protesters outnumber the protesters. This is such a vocal minority, and it sucks that they’re the ones that are controlling… uh, our, like, government and like the conversation in the country. It is a minority.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
It is a minority of people. This is not everyone who wants this. This is not even- #NotAllRepublicans. It’s not all Republicans that want this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Polls are consistently showing, at least in this country, that over half of the US is pissed about all of this anti-trans horseshit, so.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, 57% was the latest one that I saw, I think was USA Today.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but yeah. Yeah. Sorry, UK, for us giving you our horseshit. Although, to be fair, y’all have JK Rowling so, like, maybe- Maybe- You know.
KYLE GETZ
They exported some shit our way too, you know? Like, [chuckles] take a little give a little.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it’s a little… tits for tats, I guess. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, okay, news the last. So, Bernie Wagenblast, who is the voice that you hear on New York subways…
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
…has come out as a trans woman.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah. So, Bernie Wagenblast began living full-time as a woman at the start of 2023, took to social media to make the announcement.
KYLE GETZ
Vaccines, man. They’ll do that to you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles] Right. Oh my god. Uh, she had known since childhood that her true gender was not the one she was assigned at birth. On the WNYC podcast “Death, Sex & Money”, Wagenblast, who’s now 66, said she recalled first feeling like a girl at age 4. Quote, “I remember clearly being at my grandmother’s house, sitting in front of her vanity, putting on some of her necklaces, and I think she had powder at her vanity and putting that on my face,” “It felt good. It felt natural. It felt like, why can’t I do this?” “I’m not sure when I first came across the impression that this wasn’t OK, but I think fairly soon I realized that this was not OK.” She was on a podcast, it was WNYC’s podcast “Death, Sex & Money”, and I have a clip of her from that podcast where she sort of makes fun of herself and the voice that she recorded that’s now ubiquitous in New York City.
BERNIE WAGENBLAST [voice clip]
It’s a computer putting together all these little words and phrases that I recorded, and trying to make a sentence. So, it would sound something like “The next… downtown… number one… will arrive in… one… minute.”
ANNA SALE [voice clip] [TN: “Death, Sex & Money” host]
[Anna and Bernie chuckle] I know that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I recognize that voice, 100%.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, and she said she’s decided not to change her name, which is something that trans people do sometimes. She said, Bernie Wagenblast, “I prefer to be called ‘Bernie’, and that that still fits my gender. ‘Bernie’ can be short for ‘Bernadette’.”
KYLE GETZ
Oh! I love that.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I- Also, it’s really important to see people of all ages coming out as trans or just being trans, because so many people say it’s like “Oh, this is a Tumblr generation. This is a Gen Z thing. This is-” because- Like, no, it’s not. People of all ages are trans.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
You just don’t know about them. And, there are not more left handed people. Like, it’s just- When we start to be more open about identities, and people learn more about them, and people feel more comfortable coming out, then that’s what happens.
MIKE JOHNSON
I really just sort of love the idea that the proud boys wouldn’t ride the subway anymore because it’s a trans voice or something. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I feel like trans people are wriggling their little fingers all over. You know, we got Bud Light. Like, there’s so many things. It’s just, like… just have a lil finger in everything and, pretty much, they won’t be allowed- they won’t be able to be in the country because too much of it will be trans.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s trans the water! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s trans- We’re dumping some glitter into Hudson Bay. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Dumpin’ glitter, trans the water, and then you can’t live here. You gotta move.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, right. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the ideal.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, that’s the news.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, that was like an official- You’ve never done that before, Mike. [Mike laughs] Why did that sound like an official thing we always do? Um, speaking of drinkin’ the water, these people have been drinking our Kool Aid, our new Patreon members. Thank you to… Eliman? or Eli-man?
MIKE JOHNSON
Eli-man!
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
L-M-N-O?
KYLE GETZ
No. L-M-N-NO. [both chuckle] Um, uh… Stefan Wickli.
MIKE JOHNSON
Stefan?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not “Stephen”? [saying the “ph” like an f] “Stephen”?
KYLE GETZ
Mike, okay, I know I read some things wrong but I do know the word “Stephen”. [chuckles] I do- I’ve read that- I’ve read that name a couple times in my life. Um, and Nathan Olsen. Nailed it. Nailed Nathan. So if you want to join Patreon you can go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast to get bonus content, episodes, and lots of- get episodes a day early, ad-free. It’s great. You should do it. You’ll love it.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’ll love it.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Kyle sighs] [laughs] You wanna talk about bestiality, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
I’m so excited, Mike. Okay, okay, why are we talk- You were the one that suggested this topic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
I think it’s good, I like and support it, but why did you suggest this? Why- Why this? Why now? Why us?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, wh- And now, why now? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know either. You didn’t have to answer any of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sometimes we have a production meeting and I’m like “Fuck it. This is the mood I’m in right now, everybody. Enjoy.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, no, I mean- I think, at the end of the day, there is this, like, cluster of shit that dickbag fuckface assholes always mention in a row like they’re somehow related: homosexuality, pedophilia, bestiality.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re like a package deal, and we’ve covered a lot of gay stuff, and we did an episode about pedophilia, and I thought “Well, you know, we got an unholy trinity.” [Kyle chuckles] Like, we need to complete the- [chuckles] complete the circuit or whatever-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-so that our Triforces can combine and we can rise up into the sky and… slay the dragon. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
I am gay Captain Planet. [Mike laughs] When your jewelry spits out rainbow lights- Sorry, Captain Planet was already gay. I just- That just clicked for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Gay Captain Planet is Captain Planet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Especially- Especially the green one.
KYLE GETZ
Espec- [both chuckle] Oh, one of them is animals, is heart. Remember, he could talk to animals?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
This is our heart episode. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
It really is our heart episode.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Okay. And I actually have examples of what you’re talking about. I’m pretty sure I did this in other, similar episodes of- Some of us- Sometimes when I think about this, like “Oh, connecting bestiality and gay shit? Like, that’s old news.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, “People don’t do that anymore,” and, [makes a buzzer sound] wrong.
MIKE JOHNSON
They do. All the time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And, I have just a few examples that I wanted to share with you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Did you just make a goose sound?
KYLE GETZ
[makes a buzzer (or maybe goose) sound] [both laugh] Yeah. I say- I disagree with bestiality except geese.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah. Oh.
KYLE GETZ
They’re so pretty.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
[makes a goose sound]
MIKE JOHNSON
Geese are assholes, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I know, I fucking hate them. Never mind. [Mike chuckles] Um, the geese lovers are gonna send me an email to be like “Mmm, geese aren’t assholes, you’re just not petting it right,” and I’m like “I’ll pet geese however I want.” …Ben Carson.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God!
KYLE GETZ
Remember? [chuckles] Uh, 2016 Republican presidential candidate.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not dead. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Not dead. Loves Pokémon or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Really?
KYLE GETZ
Or mentioned- There was something in the news about Pokémon, I forget.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s interesting. No, it was-
KYLE GETZ
Are you looking it up? Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, it was Herman Cain that died, and then everybody thought [chuckles] Ben Carson was dead because, apparently, all black assholes are the same.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t remember that. Whoops! [Mike chuckles] Okay, in- Anyway, in 2013- There’s a quote on Fox Nation and I’m gonna read it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Well, my thoughts are that marriage is between a man and a woman.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
“It’s a-” Right. We’re already in it. “It’s a well-established, fundamental pillar of society and no group, be they gays, be they NAMBLA, be they people who believe in bestiality. It doesn’t matter what they are. They don’t get to change the definition.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Exactly like you said, it appears in a row, always with this kind of slippery slope argument.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, I know NAMBLA is a thing, and sometimes I wonder- If I were going to invent an organization to help push a narrative, it would be them. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Why? Oh- Oh, like, the right would crea- They’ve done this. They’ve created- They’ve started- Like, there was a bigger push at one point but, like, on 4chan people said, like, “Put P – as in “pedophile” – in “LGBT”, like, “P”, or whatever, and pretend like it’s part of the community,” when it’s really not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, they do these misinformation or disinformation campaigns to potentially try to connect them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And it work sometimes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, these words have- These words matter. People hear this and then- So, part of the reason I included this one is because he tried to clarify, and I’m gonna read you this- He clarifi- Like, there was all the different clarifications he tried to do on different news sources but I’m gonna read you the one he did on New York Magazine. “I wasn’t equating those things, I don’t think they’re equal. Just, you know, if you ask me for apple and I give you an orange you would say, well that’s not an orange. And then I say, that’s a banana, that’s not an apple either. And there’s a peach, that’s not an apple, either.” [laughs] [Mike chuckles] “But…” [laughs] Where are we, Ben Carson? What are we doing? “But it doesn’t mean that I’m equating the banana and the orange and the peach. And in the same way I’m not equating those things. My point was that once we start changing the definitions, then where do we stop?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Like, so not only did you make us a delicious fruit salad…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
…we- you stuck with “Where does it stop?” which is the original issue, which is the point.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That word salad was delicious. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I would love a orange, peach, banana, apple, little fruits mixture. So now I’m hungry and angry… The Kyle Getz Story.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, another person: Lynn Hutchings, a member of the Wyoming State Senate, representing Cheyenne.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is gonna be a good one.
KYLE GETZ
Um, In 2019 a high school Gay-Straight Alliance went to Cheyenne, the capital.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
They were asking people- They were talking about a bill that would help ban workplace discrimination against LGBTQ people. So, back in 2019, that was making the rounds and they were asking people to support it. So, they ran into her apparently and they asked her to support it and, in the conversation – she denies this, but, allegedly – said “If my sexual orientation was to have sex with all of the men in there and I had sex with all of the women in there and then they brought their children and I had sex with all of them and then brought their dogs in and I had sex with them, [would] I be protected for my sexual orientation?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Good lord.
KYLE GETZ
You’re talking to fucking high schoolers! Like, Jesus Christ! I get, as adults, sometimes Trump says shit and you’re like “Holy shit,” but, like, you’re talking to high schoolers! And that’s your- Anyway- Again, she said she- And then, best part, she attempted to fist bump the students before leaving.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god. Well, okay.
KYLE GETZ
“Later, bro!” like, walk off.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Again, she denies she said that.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then she totally blew a cat in the alley before she went home. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Right, because apparently that’s what she’s having sex with: men, and women, and dogs, and children I guess. I don’t know what s- Anyway, that bill, House Bill 230, the sponsor: Dan Zwonitzer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw!
KYLE GETZ
We know that bitch.
MIKE JOHNSON
We know that bitch!
KYLE GETZ
I only know that because I actually looked it up on their, like, on the website to see like whatever happened to that bill. It said “H Did Not Consider in CoW”, Committee of the Whole. So my guess is it did not proceed to get voted on or anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well…
KYLE GETZ
Um, no surprise.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks- Thanks, Representative Zwonitzer.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. The last one: in January 2023, which is the present year we’re in-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s now.
KYLE GETZ
-if you’re listen to this later, in Florida at the Florida Atlantic University-
MIKE JOHNSON
Gonna be great.
KYLE GETZ
-Interim Provost Michele Hawkins was having a conversation during a faculty meeting where they were- One of the discussion points was the university was collecting info to provide to Florida Republicans. They had requested information about DEI initiatives-
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
-because-
MIKE JOHNSON
Because we gotta have a list of them so we can shut them down. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
To make- Yes. Because they had legislation that was prohibiting spending funds on DEI, CRT, other – they called them “discriminatory” – initiatives.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, sure. [blows a raspberry]
KYLE GETZ
And, you know, they were talking about, like, “Well, you know, why are you complying? This list kind of highlights black and LGBTQ faculty members unnecessarily?” So Hawkins, the interim provost – at least at the time, I don’t know – said “We did not do that. We did not know what color—if they were purple, if they had sex with animals. I mean, we had no, no idea of what we were doing. We did not put anyone under the bus.” And then the person that was having this conversation or in conversation, whatever, during this faculty meeting said, “Please don’t equate being LGBT with having sex with animals,” and Hawkins said “Oh, are you kidding, Allan?” and this person said “No, I am not kidding.” Later, their conversation continued a little bit where this person tried to, like, steer the conversation back to, like, the black and LGBT employees that they were worried about and Hawkins said “I doubt that they do have sex with animals. I don’t know, not many people do.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] He’s incorrect.
KYLE GETZ
Um, Michele Hawkins. She is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, “she”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
She’s incorrect, lots of people have sex with animals.
KYLE GETZ
Will we get to that?
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna get to that.
KYLE GETZ
[both chuckle] Oh boy. Anyway, so- And this was actually- The person that was having this conversation-
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
As awful and fucking terrible as that whole thing is, and she’s clearly like doing the thing, I just can’t get over saying that she was going to “put them” under a bus. You don’t place someone under a bus, you throw them under a bus.
KYLE GETZ
As I was reading that I was like “That’s very weird.” Yeah, like, [Mike chuckles] “I will gingerly place you under the bus,” and then we… wave the bus on or something. [Mike laughs] I don’t- No. You throw them. I mean, don’t. But don’t do that. Anyway, yes. And so the person that had this conversation, that was- that called her out during it to be like “Don’t do that,” also said, later, he doesn’t think her intent was to do this and he thinks this is one of those, like- He was like “I think this is a moment where you get to teach someone, like, here’s how you’re-” So I won’t say that- Unlike Ben Carson, I won’t, like, just universally shit on her for-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know how she actually feels. Hopefully she learned and understood that, like, that joke isn’t funny. And, like, even going to, like, the “purple” like thing for like race…
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just gonna say that. Why do people, when they’re trying to say how not racist they are, suddenly call people fuckin’ purple? Or- [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
It’s like “No, I don’t care if you’re…” and then you just have to list colors because, like, all of a sudden you don’t care if they’re green! Which is, like- That was- We’re not- I don’t know, that is very much like a “I’m not racist but…” kind of thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
And if you run into a green person, take them to the hospital.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] They have jaundice.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that purple person can’t breathe. [both chuckle] You should do the Heimlich.
KYLE GETZ
Or… place them under a bus.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Um, so this stuff still happens to this day. This is not a old school long gone comparison. These comparisons happen today.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. They sure do. And, they happened yesterday so let’s talk about the history of bestiality!
KYLE GETZ
Oooh…
MIKE JOHNSON
God, I’m just nailing my segues today, Kyle. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Um, where does this come from, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, well, first of all, first of all, first of all… bestiality is also called “zoophilia” and it’s probably “ZO-O-O-philia”, “ZO-O-philia”.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] But, then we get confused with people that love Zooey Deschanel.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, exactly.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s so difficult.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly, exactly. So, I’m just- I’m gonna say “zoo” as consistently as I can. If it comes out “zo” at some point, fuckin’ deal with it and don’t @ me. I don’t care. Zoophilia, so that’s when a person experiences a sexual fixation on nonhuman animals, and I love that because people are animals. You can’t just say “into animals”, because humans are animals. That’s a fact. So-
KYLE GETZ
Yes. And also, we generally agree when we talk about animals we are talking about nonhuman animals, so we clarified it once and you don’t have to say it now every time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. I won’t… except, I do think it’s important that we say that as often as possible because the Christian fuckface assholes that are using that word against our community also don’t think people are animals.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh. Oh! Boy. Because we’re better than them, or something? Like “We’re not animals, we’re better.”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. ‘Cause God said so. Right? He created all the beasts on whatever day it was and he created people later because we’re better, and newer, and different.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! Well, if I had had this information- I’m gonna throw out my research. I didn’t know God created beasts a different day.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Who knew I just needed religion this whole time?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, you never know. [chuckle] Anyway, so the- But the thing is, “zoophilia” really is, like, a love for animals or a sexual interest in animals and is not necessarily the act of having sex with animals, and that’s where “bestiality”, when we say that, usually means some kind of sexual activity with animals.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Now, um, there is some medical research about it. And medical research suggests that some zoophiles- [said “ZO-O-philes”] zoophiles- [“ZOO-philes”] Zoophiles. I just did it. Fuck my ass, Kyle. Some zoophiles only become aroused by specific species. Some are only into horses. Some zoophiles become aroused by multiple species, which may or may not include humans, and some zoophiles are not attracted to humans at all, just aminals. As far as the history is concerned, there are prehistoric caves that have paintings of people bangin’ animals and, uh, so it’s clearly been going on for at least that long. And doesn’t seem to be much shame about it when they’re like, you know, “Here’s a picture of me spearing an ox and here’s one of me fucking it.” Like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I thought spearing was the fucking.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah. But, like, you know, there’s no great shame or evil if you’re just, like, you know, keeping a diary for everyone to read your cave wall.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, there are some references in Hindu scriptures to religious figures that engage in symbolic sexual activity with animals. There are explicit depictions of people having sex with animals that are on the 1000s of sculptures of life events on the exterior of the temple at Khaju…raho. Khajuraho. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Are you okay? That- [Mike laughs] During that, you sounded like you [chuckles] were fading or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, I was trying to say it like a cat. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Kharaoraoraorao.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but uh… So, in some Hindu traditions apparently, having sex with an animal was believed to be a human having sex with a God incarnated in the form of an animal.
KYLE GETZ
That sounds like a rumor that, like, whatever- like cats spread. They were like “No, no, no, no, no. Definitely have sex with us.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“We love it.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] No, don’t fuck your cat, everybody. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, but in some Hindu scriptures like the Bhagavata Purana and the Devi Bhagavata Purana, having sex with animals, especially cows because they sacred, leads you to hell.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh- Oh. That’s a weird- Okay, not that I want to defend having sex with cows but, like, that’s a weird- Not only, like, about bestiality, but that’s also about the view of sex.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, sex is ab- It’s not about- It’s a violation. Any sex is a violation, or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like- I don’t know. There’s- I didn’t expect- I thought you’re gonna say- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve- I’m- Okay, Kyle, I know that we are on lists. [Kyle chuckles] Like, the government keeps lists on search histories and we’re for sure on all of them.
KYLE GETZ
Because of our weird shit that we look up for this show?
MIKE JOHNSON
Whatever was left… definitely filled it today. You know?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yep. Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
I read so much about bestiality and, uh, there’s a whole thing about how, like, some people defend bestiality when it’s with bigger animals because, uh, you’re “less likely to hurt them” so that makes it okay.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, they’re like “Go ahead and fuck cows. It’s not gonna hurt the cow. They’re huge.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, well, it’s like- Just like with gay men, it’s like- It’s less harm- It’s less hurtful the bigger their anus is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
So I could see that. Like, a rat’s butt is probably real tiny.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right.
KYLE GETZ
Versus, a cow’s butt is huge. I could fit- I could fit a bunch of dicks in there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I actually see the logic, unfortu-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We see the logic in that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. I- Yes.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] What are we doing?
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Okay- I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know. I don’t know. Okay, so the Western tradition, like, this is where- this is where shit, like, gets real. So, bestiality was mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, and it was mentioned in the Book of Leviticus right next to the gay stuff, right? So, it’s “Man do not lay with man,” is right next to “Do not lay with beasts,” so there is, at least by proximity, a certain amount of familiarity [both chuckles] between the two concepts in the Bible. But they didn’t- They weren’t equated. They weren’t, like- They weren’t hooked together as being like the same kind of sin or, like, even like weighed against each other. They just were near each other in Leviticus. And for most of the early Christian Era, bestiality was basically no worse than masturbation. It got a little worse over time, but not by much. So, do you know what a penitential is?
KYLE GETZ
Mm-mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
A penitential?
KYLE GETZ
When I’m about to fuck a Pentecostal person?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They’re my penitential?
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Also, [Kyle chuckles] it’s the name of a of a book that clergy would write to sort of provide guidelines for what the punishment should be for different kinds of sins.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, you would go and you would confess and, at the confession then, you know, the priest would say “Hey, you know, you did this- these bad things so here’s your punishment for these crimes.”
KYLE GETZ
Hail Marys, for some reason, is in my mind of what people say at confessionals. Like, always do- Like, apparently if you do 10 Hail Marys you’re mostly forgiven for anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, there’s, like, praying the rosary, and Hail Marys, and shit like that, but it could get more, like fasting, or self-exile, or other kinds of ascetic treatments like needing to whip yourself or- Like, there’s a whole bunch of different ways that it can take but the most common one, especially in media is – right – like the Hail Mary. Anyway, the Penitential of Cummean, which is super, super old, that’s like… fourth century?
KYLE GETZ
Mm. Before I was born.
Anyway- Yeah. Same, girl. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, says- So, dude-on-dude sex is 7 years of penance.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is more than banging your own mom, which is only 3 years, unpremeditated murder, which is only 3 years, and bestiality was only 1 year. So, at least at that time-
KYLE GETZ
Woowww.
MIKE JOHNSON
-in the, like, hierarchy of shit, bestiality was like way down the list in terms of badness, and also, gay shit the very top.
KYLE GETZ
And also, I’m no, like, proponent of mom fucking, but the same as murder?!
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah, right. Well, unpremeditated murder. I guess premeditated murder, like, that’s the death penalty, right?
KYLE GETZ
Still. I mean- Yeah, okay. That’s wild. Wow, being gay was very bad!
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you know, that’s- That’s what they thought.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, so then there’s another penitential, the Paenitentiale Theodori, which, you sent me a big study about that.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it was- That’s 8th century. There was an Anglo-Latin penitential collection of Archbishop Theodore of Canterbury, his judgments about stuff, and that’s the first time, in writing, that bestiality and sex between men are compared. So, in it, he says that “He who often commits fornication with a man or with a beast should do penance for 10 years.”
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
So that’s- They are the same, and the penal- the punishment is 10 years.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, there’s- Usually, when people write about this, they say that the two sins were put together to dehumanize men who have sex with men but, at least according to this author that you sent me the paper from, it suggests the opposite, that bestiality was elevated to a serious sin because it was put on the same pedestal as gay shit.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. Hm. Because the thing before that actually said it was only one year.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
And now they’re like “No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s bad.”
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s 10 years. They’re both 10 years, and it’s real bad. And so, basically, the association- The association wasn’t bringing gayness down, it was bringing bestiality down to the level of the gays.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So that’s- You know.
KYLE GETZ
Weird. That’s- [sighs] That reflects how poorly we viewed gay people. That, more, is like what I take away from that. That sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. Now, this- This paper that you sent me was super interesting because it also mentions that some of this is probably a cultural shift that, in England, people started thinking of animals as not just objects. They started thinking of them as having personalities and anthropomorphizing them, and so that’s when the sin of bestiality starts getting worse in the eyes of people. Because if you’re just- If it’s just masturbation, if you’re just, like- If that clucking chicken is just a Fleshjack then, you know, that’s- [chuckles] that’s not as bad as like, you know, mother hen who, like, cares about her babies. Like, you violating her, you know? [Kyle chuckles] What?
KYLE GETZ
You just… gave me a lot of imagery that is overwhelming. [Mike laughs] I just got so overwhelmed. I shut down. I didn’t know what to do with what you just said to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
It’s fine. That’s- I need to get over it, because that’s gonna be this entire episode.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, the whole episode. Uh- [Kyle lets out a deep breath] So, at some point, the death penalty became the punishment for both gay sex and for bestiality and that was all the way up until 18th century in Western Europe, and colonial America by extension. So, apparently, between six and seven hundred people were executed for bestiality in 17th and 18th century Sweden. [saying it goofily] Sweden!
KYLE GETZ
[also saying it goofily] Sweden!
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and in one bestiality in the case in the United States, in colonial Plymouth, 16 year old Thomas Grazer was forced to point out the sheep he’d had sex with from a lineup [Kyle chuckles] and then had to watch them be killed before he was executed.
KYLE GETZ
From a- Could I- Can he- Can you pick a sheep out of a lineup? Is that sheep-racist?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m guessing it’s the ones that were smoking but- [Kyle laughs] [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Or fur is matted down because there was just the load shot on it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God.
KYLE GETZ
That’s hard to get- You need some warm water and maybe some detergent to get that out of your sheep.
MIKE JOHNSON
[sung] Goin’ to watch that cum right out of my sheep. [speaking] I don’t know, man.
KYLE GETZ
What’s that?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know, man. Okay, so apparently some witches were accused of having sex with the devil as an animal.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, he would turn into an animal and they could- they could then, you know, bang- bang- bang the devil.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
But uh, even though they were accused of that and confessed of that- Read The Crucible, y’all, some crazy witch trial bullshit happened. I guess, in some places, bestiality laws were based on the belief that sex with an animal could result in babies.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, we didn’t understand how pregnancy and sex worked so it was like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that seems like that’s not true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t- Don’t fuck that dog, because you’re gonna have a dog baby… person.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
For sure.
KYLE GETZ
I guess I could see, like, before we knew stuff, to be like “Oo, that’s gonna make a weird dog-human hybrid monster.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that’s why that bestiality- that death was prescribed to both the humans and the animals.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
So-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, so it couldn’t- If it got accidentally pregnant during that time.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s right. That’s right. So you had to- You had to kill them both. Let’s see… You said you had some stuff about bestiality law also-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. A little bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
-but uh, the last few things about bestiality law. Apparently, bestiality is still legal in two states. Do you want to guess which ones?
KYLE GETZ
Arkansas?
MIKE JOHNSON
Nope! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Um, California?
MIKE JOHNSON
Nope! [chuckles] It’s West Virginia – that checks out – and New Mexico.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. But the reason bestiality is legal in some places is because by- when we went through the process of decriminalizing, like, sodomy and stuff, sometimes those were already like paired together, so they accidentally decriminalized bestiality as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
So then they had to recriminalize bestiality as a separate kind of law, and it’s state by state. So, I don’t think there’s actually a federal law that criminalizes this.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s fucking interesting.
KYLE GETZ
And- God, I’m gonna fact check that before I post that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Eh.
KYLE GETZ
Or- Or I won’t, who knows. And so it had- It’s, like, been state by state and- Am I just stealing your thunder? Do you have more?
MIKE JOHNSON
No, you’re doin’ great!
KYLE GETZ
One of the challenges that we have in criminalizing bestiality, like kind of getting it back on the books, is that how do you differentiate it from things that farmers do? Some farmers inseminate animals-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, animal husbandry.
KYLE GETZ
-or do, like, get them horny and stuff so that helps. Like, so how do you- You gotta try to find a way we can talk about that separately, of, like, what part of that- I don’t know. But, like, no one- For some reason farmers are the untouchable people that you can never make a law against. They’re “America’s backbone” or wh- I don’t know, whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, they had to try to make laws that criminalize it but in a way that didn’t criminalize farming.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Which is interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Have you ever seen, like, a bull, like-
KYLE GETZ
Whatever you’re about to say: no. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Wait, but what- What- Have you- What have you seen?
MIKE JOHNSON
I said “bull” and I shouldn’t have. A cow. …Artificial insemination? You literally wear, like, a shoulder high glove.
KYLE GETZ
No- Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And J-Lube up like your entire arm so that you can shove a vial full of semen like all the way up in there.
KYLE GETZ
When you- Okay, when you started saying “you have to wear”, in my mind, I thought you’re gonna say like “…a white and black spotted, like, outfit” [Mike laughs] or like “a cow mask” or something. That’s where I thought you were going.
MIKE JOHNSON
You have to do the sexy cow dance.
KYLE GETZ
MooOoo! MooOoo! MooOooOooOoOo!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yoohoo.
KYLE GETZ
Yoohoo! Y- Moohoo!
MIKE JOHNSON
Moohoo. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Oh no. Oh, boy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Um- [Kyle chuckles] It’s just- It’s- It’s a- It’s a lot, and if it weren’t for, like, to make baby cows happen, it would definitely be… problematic.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Weird.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, my two, like, random things, and we can get more about it-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
In Hungary, apparently, there are no legal limitations to pornography that involve animals. So, uh, there’s a rather large industry – kind of underground but not really – that produces a number of films and magazines particularly for Dutch companies such as “Topscore” and “Book & Film International”. And, apparently, there’re even non-human porn stars like a Great Dane named “Hector” who starred in several films. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I mean-
MIKE JOHNSON
Good for you, Hector.
KYLE GETZ
I guess so, but couldn’t we get a better porn name?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t-
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s not the best porn name, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
But for a dog?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I don’t know. “Champ”? [both laugh] What do you want to name him?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, alright.
KYLE GETZ
I’m trying to think of one but I’m not coming up with them. My- Animal porn names are not at the tip of my brain, unfortunately.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, I would encourage you, later, if it comes into mind, just yell it out.
KYLE GETZ
Just yell? [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, and then last: apparently, in Japan, they have serious censorship laws around pornography but, because of a quirk of Japanese law, if the penis isn’t a human penis it’s okay. So they use animal pornography to bypass censorship laws. So, often there will be models that perform fellatio on animals because oral penetration of a non-human penis is not in the scope of their pixilation censorship law. Um, while primarily underground, there are a number of animal pornography actresses who specialize in bestiality movies.
KYLE GETZ
[sighs] Did you- Okay, I was- I also read a bunch of stuff about bestiality and got- found my way onto weird forums that, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I, like, got up. It was upsetting to do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Did you- How did you- Did you?
MIKE JOHNSON
I, multiple times, had the, like, “I don’t want to yuck anybody’s yum,” but, like… yuck. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know?
KYLE GETZ
Well that’s- Part of this conversation is like, is- We talk about yucking people’s yums when it’s, like, doing something consensual between…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…humans, is usually our discussion.
MIKE JOHNSON
I read a bunch of forums of people who were like “I’m sure my dog is into it,” and I’m like “Oh, that is a lot to unpack.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yes, I agree. I think we should get there. I think we should go through this info and then kind of like have that conversation, because we need to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But, um, speaking of… This actually segues. In the DSM, zoophilia is listed – in the latest version, the DSM-IV – under “other specified paraphilic disorder”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, “paraphilia” is an experience or intense sexual arousal to atypical objects, situations, fantasies, or behaviors. So, it’s not just that it’s paraphilic, it has to be a disorder, which means- So, for it to count – for zoophilia to count in the DSM as a disorder – the interest must be recurring and intense, it must be present for at least 6 months, and it must cause marked distress or impairment in important areas of functioning. That’s what makes it the “disorder” part of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Which is interesting because, like… why are we limiting it? Like, isn’t anything that causes- that is intense, lasts a long time, and causes distress to you- Aren’t- That could be anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
That can be drinking water. If I get so obsessed with drinking water, a normally good thing, and I do it all the time, and it interferes with my ability to get stuff done because I always have to be around my fridge to get water, like- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, anything could- If it interrupts your day to day life and is intense, anything could be categorized under this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and there’s also the opposite – or the corollary – right? Like, just because you’re not distressed by it doesn’t mean it’s good for you, right? [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Right, right. Yes. Yes. Okay, so, interestingly, there are paraphilias that are listed, and this is “other specified paraphilic disorder”. So, examples they give are: zoophilia, necrophilia, coprophilia, which is-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, that’s eatin’ poop, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
-into scat. Um, there’s “klismaphilia” which is sexual arousal from enemas.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh!
KYLE GETZ
There’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, a really good poop… pretty great.
KYLE GETZ
Right?
MIKE JOHNSON
So maybe.
KYLE GETZ
No- No, wait! Maybe what? You could see being into it?
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe an enema would be one.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Get that shit movin’.
KYLE GETZ
Um- Yeah. Um, “urophilia” which is urination.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
The sight or thought- Like, urination. …And “telephone scatologia” which is not what it sounds like. It’s arousal for exposing unexpecting victims to sexual or obscene things over the phone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, great.
KYLE GETZ
So, I think that’s a weird collection of examples that they have provided for this, because some I could see, like necrophilia, others like being into enemas… like, what the fuck do I care?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I- Again, this is, like, if it causes disorder or if it causes prolonged issues with your life. So, to me, yeah, again, that can be anything. But, like, why these examples? Some of those feel like- Okay, necrophilia, that feels like a violation. That’s a problem whether or- Yeah, like you said, like, whether or not you have an issue with this, like, that seems like a problem you gotta work on, versus like being into like urine.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s so…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…common. Why would that be in the same list?
MIKE JOHNSON
If you spend like a prohibitive amount of time doing- like, with enemas, you might just be a bottom.
KYLE GETZ
You might be Dan Garlington. [both laugh] You might be a Dan. That’s my new stand-up bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
But hardly seems to be- Like, nobody’s getting harmed.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Same with watersports, really, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, then why- why care? Why-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why put that in a list of things to… be disordered? I don’t know. It’s odd.
KYLE GETZ
I agree. I think there’s a weird- Like, gayness was in the DSM in the past and it eventually was moved to, like, “only if it causes you distress”. Like, so it seems like this is- The, like, “only if it causes distress” is the out that they add on to something that maybe might not be an issue.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which, I think it still sucks when something is in there, because, regardless, that demonizes that even if you have- with all the proper clarifications and like “only if it harms you”, like, I think you’re still giving a negative slant to this thing and saying it’s poss- Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Like- Yeah, “Why include it at all?” is the question.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Well, maybe it’s worth talking about why, why it happens.
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, before I go into the “why it happens”, I do want to talk about this article that I found in The Independent that was “Why would anyone want to have sex with an animal?” [TN: “Why would anyone want to have sex with an animal? The psychology of bestiality”] And, uh, Dr. Anil Aggrawal published a comprehensive typology of zoophilia in the Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine and, in that, claims that there are 10 different types of zoophile based on scientific and clinical literature. So, they are “human-animal role-players”, and those are people who never have sex with animals but become sexually aroused through wanting to have sex with humans who are pretending to be animals.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that furries? I-
KYLE GETZ
That seems very different than furries. I think furries very int- Or, a lot of them, very intentionally separate this out like “I am not trying to have sex with an animal,” like “I am having sex with- in this costume.” And- Okay, we did a whole episode. It’s not even about sex for some people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
For most people it’s not about sex at all. So I think it- I think it’s different… but there’s gotta be like a small overlap, like more than the general population because- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
As it’s written, it’s like “sexually aroused through wanting to have sex with humans who pretend to be animals.” Like, knowing that it’s pretend is part of there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Romantic zoophiles” are those who keep animals as pets as a way to get psychosexually stimulated without actually having any kind of sexual contact with them. “Zoophilic fantasizers”, those who fantasize about having sexual intercourse with animals but never actually do. There’re “tactile zoophiles”, those who get sexual excitement from touching, stroking or fondling animals or their genitals but do not actually have sexual intercourse with animals. Uh, there are “fetishistic zoophiles”, and those are those who keep various animal parts, especially fur, that are used as erotic stimuli as a crucial part of their sexual activity, typically masturbation.
KYLE GETZ
Why, out of all of this, is like you just find someone with a collection of fur?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh, why did that gross me out more than other things?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. That’s like… [doing a nasally creep voice] “I kept a cool lump of your hair.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] “I have a box of cat hair and it’s hot!”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yes, I see.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, “sadistic bestials”, those who derive sexual arousal from the torturing of animals, known as “zoosadism”, but does not involve sexual intercourse with the animal. There are “opportunistic zoosexuals”, those who have normal sexual encounters but would have sexual intercourse with animals if the opportunity arose. Uh, “regular zoosexuals”, those who prefer sex with animals over sex with humans but are capable of having sex with both. They will engage in a wide range of sexual activities with animals and love animals on an emotional level. There are “homicidal bestials”, those who need to kill animals in order to have sex with them.
KYLE GETZ
Hoo, boy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Although capable of having sex with live animals, there is an insatiable desire to have sex with dead animals. And, last, “exclusive zoosexuals”, those who only have sex with animals to the exclusion of human sexual partners. I- So- I don’t know. There’s a big, wide array of different ways that somebody might be wired this way and- or why. But one thing that’s interesting that led to a bunch of research being done on is those violent ones, like homicidal bestials that I was just talking about, for sure, along with like setting things on fire and bedwetting are part of a cluster of things that occur around childhood to people who end up being serial killers or other otherwise sociopathic.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I read about that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And they called it “the Link” between- There’s this- There are- Like, more recently, this has been the big concern in bestiality. Like, you know, there’s moral rights, and animal rights, and that but, more recently, a concern about the relationship between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence, known as “the Link”, capital l “Link”. Sorry, Zelda-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
-this is the new Link. And-
MIKE JOHNSON
The Triforce! Why is the Triforce gonna keep coming up in this episode? [Kyle chuckles] Homosexuality, bestiality, and pedophilia. Yay!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah, we need a- Maybe we need to not connect- I don’t know. Other people already connect it. But, like, they said that studies that are done on this are done on prisoners…
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
…not the general population.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, while… Recent- Okay, I read something that said, quote, “the research suggests that individuals with interest in bestiality likely have a host of atypical sexual interests, some of which may lead to interpersonal offending or … use of problematic pornography,” end quote. The downside though is that there’s no direct scientific evidence that’s like the clear- the Link. Like, clear- Like, done – you know – done on the general population that confirms absolutely that these two things are related.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And so it may be more likely to cause this, but I don’t think we’re- I don’t think the science is totally there yet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there are some things that the science is there on.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
There are some medical conditions that do account for zoophilic behavior. So, if- There are sometimes cerebral tumors located in the frontal lobe, or in the limbic system, or the hypothalamus, can lead people to become zoophilic when they weren’t before they had the tumors.
KYLE GETZ
Hm! Weird.
MIKE JOHNSON
A very recent case in the journal “Romanian Neurosurgery” described the late onset of zoophilia in a 42 year old man who suddenly started engaging in zoophilic behavior following an aneurysm in the posterior cerebral artery. More specifically, he developed a sexual interest towards the hens in his garden, and his wife found him several times having sex with the hens. Unfortunately, he died a few weeks later because the aneurysm burst. Another report that was in the Annals of Pharmacotherapy highlighted the case of a 74 year old man who developed zoophilic tendencies five days after he started dopaminergic therapy for Parkinson’s disease. He was diagnosed with Parkinson’s, they put them on a medication, and he immediately started having- like, bestiality was part of his life. So there’s like- It’s- There’s clearly some, like, brain chemistry things that can be true for people that are engaging this kind of behavior. Also, zoophilia has been studied as an early sign of psychosis. So, um, it’s something that people can experience right before, like in the prodrome stage, of a psychotic break. In the 1970s, there was this dude who was a sexologist named John Money. [Kyle chuckles] Yeeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
Nice.
MIKE JOHNSON
But uh, he did a study and concluded that zoophilic behaviors were transitory – or, sometimes transitory – when it occurred because of no other sexual outlet being available. So, that it was like a- like a projection.
KYLE GETZ
Almost like a situational thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So that leads to the bestiality- a connection to gayness, that there are lots of gays who may seek out animals as a sexual outlet because they either can’t or won’t let themselves give into their natural sexual orientation of being a homosexual. So, like “I’m just so deeply closeted and I can’t,” but, so then, like, something about that, their brain then imprints on animals.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. That’s a dangerous kind of thing because, like, if there is some connection and if there is scientific connection, people could use that and very easily misconstrue that to say “all” when it’s actually the shame that people give gayness because, by making these connections, is part of the root issue, not the- It’s not a critique of what’s actually happening.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
It’s a weird chicken and the egg. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. 100%. Although, I mean- Same thing with the pedophilia episode, right? Like, if it’s true, I- I don’t want to hide from that, right?
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, so- Anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, yeah. But those are some of the reasons why, that apparently, you know, have something to do or might have something to do with brain chemistry or the awful horrific nature of society and making gay people closeted.
KYLE GETZ
Some of the, like- Of the 10 types, some of them were violent and clearly bad. Like, there’s n- We don’t even have to discuss the moral implications of like killing an animal and having sex with it. But others that are more about, like- I don’t know. There’s just a variety of types. Some of this clearly can be caused by external situations. Some- Like, I read something that said- Like, some- One of the researchers believed that this was an inborn characteristic, so it could be that too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. Did you read anything definitive on whether-?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and people making- Um, yes. And people making the claim that it’s the same as homosexuality, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That, like, another- Another “They can’t help themselves,” or “It’s not a choice,” like that somehow justifies the behavior, which is something that we also saw in the Pedophilia episode.
KYLE GETZ
Right. Yes. I do believe that pedophilic people were born that way, and also we need to remember that that- just because you were born with something does not make it okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s not why- That’s not why gayness is okay,
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, I agree.
KYLE GETZ
Should I say some numbers?
MIKE JOHNSON
Say some numbers, Kyle. You have gayta?
KYLE GETZ
A little bit. There- These are the num- If you look up- Like, anyone will come across these same numbers because we have such limited data on this. So, one of the numbers I came across was from a 2021 review of 13 different papers that estimated it was prevalent in 2% of the populations, zoophilia was. That was a study by-
MIKE JOHNSON
That seems like a lot. Like, 2% of everyone is a lot of fuckin’ people.
KYLE GETZ
Hold on to your chickens because here comes- Um, back in the 40s and 50s, Kinsey, famous for the Kinsey scale, who did a lot of research, he was- like, had the more accurate number of gay people: account for like 10%. He- This was one of the questions, one of the things he studied, and he said men who have some form of sexual contact with an animal, across their lifespan, was at 8%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Whew! Yeah! Get it.
KYLE GETZ
And-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t- [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
And he said, when looking at people that were raised on farms, it’s closer to 40-50%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
That seems- To be like almost half of people, that seems…
MIKE JOHNSON
[makes a confused sound like “I dunno”]
KYLE GETZ
Mrrr?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Mmmoooo!
KYLE GETZ
Uh, for women, it was- I don’t know why it was separated out for preadolescents and adolescents, but 1.5 reported bestiality in preadolescents and 3.6 in adolescence. So, both 2%, seems like a big number, like a big percentage. And Kinsey, who- I don’t know if I have those numbers also. Kinsey’s numbers seem high. He was also right about some of the stuff that he said for his time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
But something I read said that- [chuckles] I’ll read. Quote, “Considering that humanity has been aware of and legislated bestiality for over 3000 years, it is remarkable how little scientific knowledge exists on the topic.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I think this is something that, like, we run across. There are topics like this that are just taboo to even talk about, to have our episode name this. And, like, I don’t like the idea of it being taboo to talk about because I think there- We’re not gonna get anywhere by not studying it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
We’re not gonna get anywhere by not researching it and, in fact, I think directly the opposite. It was going to directly harm our understanding and knowledge of what to do about this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
If we- If we- The more we know about it and understand it, the more we can decide “Do we need to legislate this? Are people born this way and we need to help?” Like, that would train- And, clearly, you told me other examples so it’s not just that but, you know, maybe some set is born like this and we need to help those people differently and we need to make it okay- I’d rather them talk about it than fucking do this thing in secret, like, to kill and fuck animal in secret.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I’d rather make it a little bit more okay to talk about so that we can deal with the problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t want to do. They just think talking about it as bad.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and the dehumanizing effect of it all – right? – too. Like, who wants to be the person that’s gonna help a pedophile?
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know?
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is so heartless and cruel.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, like, very non-Christian actually. UnChristian. Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, Christians should be all over this. So, okay, are we to the point where we talk about what do we think about it? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Or do you wanna play a game first?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s play game! That’ll be a fun- I think- I think I would- I would- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great! Kyle, you’re gonna play a game called “Bestiality or Neigh!” [both chuckle] Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Okay, can you tell me the rules?
MIKE JOHNSON
The rules are: I’m gonna tell you a -philia of some kind, which is a sexual interest or act of having sex with… something, and I want you to tell me if that is bestiality or not.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. There are various types of -philias under the bestiality umbrella?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeep. Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, God- I thought we were gonna have a fun lighthearted like “Remember Toucan Sam?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Mm.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you ready?
KYLE GETZ
Ye- Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here we go! “Ornithophilia”.
KYLE GETZ
Bestiality is that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct, that’s sex with birds!
KYLE GETZ
Birds- Okay, look, birds seem like the worst ones to have sex with! [Mike laughs] They’re little, they have beaks, they can fly a- They can literally fly away from you! Like, that just- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s 20 of these, so…
KYLE GETZ
Sorry! [Mike laughs] Okay, yeah. I also don’t have to critique each animal and tell you how fuckable they are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uhh, I- So, if you want to take a stab, if you want to guess what you think it is too, that could be maybe funny.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Dacryphilia”?
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna say neigh. That’s sex with Dax Shepard.
MIKE JOHNSON
That- I’m gonna give you the point for the necrophilia- or- Necrophilia? Whew.
KYLE GETZ
Whew!
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe that was a Freudian slip of the dead tongue. Uh, you get a point for Bestiality or Neigh. The- Like, your guess doesn’t matter. Like- Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Right, right. Well, it matters to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
But you said neigh, which is correct. That’s turned on by tears or crying.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay. Uh-
KYLE GETZ
Hey, if you’re into that hit, me up. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “hoplophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, I’m gonna say… bestiality. I don’t- I have no i- Oh, into rabbits!
MIKE JOHNSON
It is not. It is turned on by guns.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh. Ehh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, all of Florida.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] America.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “lactophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna say neigh. I’m gonna say that’s into, like, milk or milking.
MIKE JOHNSON
Turned on by breast milk, that’s correct. Uh, “gerontophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
I’m gonna say neigh. That’s into… giants.
MIKE JOHNSON
Neigh, that’s turned on by elderly people.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, let’s see. Next, “kleptophilia”.
KYLE GETZ
Neigh. Are you sexually excited by stealing things?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s correct, turned on by stealing things. “Podophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, yes? Just because I haven’t said “yes” in a bit and I don’t know what that would be. But-
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it is not. It’s being turned on by feet.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, I should have- [sighs quickly] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Melissophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
…Neigh. That’s being turned on by Melissa Joan Hart.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Uh, it is. It’s sex with or arousal from bees.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I said birds were one of the worst ones to sex with… [Mike laughs] Bees? Oh my god… they jizzed over Bee Movie.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, probably.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or they… honeyed their pants…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…or whatever. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Uh, let’s see… “Dendrophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, no, that’s into De… Dharma & Greg.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- [chuckles] That’s- No, that’s turned on by trees.
KYLE GETZ
Ohohoh! Trees, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Batrachophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. You’re into bats?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s yes, but it’s sex with or arousal from frogs.
KYLE GETZ
Again, not the best… You know? There’s some- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ribbit. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, “herpetophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
At least they can puff up their chest, and that’s sexy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Bold, confident. Um, no. That-
MIKE JOHNSON
Their bulgy throats?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Um, their long tongues.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
From across the room. Um, uh- No, wait. What’d you say?
MIKE JOHNSON
“Herpetophilia”.
KYLE GETZ
No. Something about grass?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it is. That’s sex with arousal from lizards.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Brontophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. I’m gonna say yes, because that sounds like a dinosaur.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, no, that is being turned on by thunder.
KYLE GETZ
Ohoho!
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Boy, that sucks. That time- You gotta work out that timing so specifically.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, you’re just like chasing the storm all the way across the plains just so you can get off.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh that’s what the- That’s what the movie “Twister” was about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, “delphinophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Dolphins. Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. That’s sex with dolphins. Uh, “cynophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
No. Into sinuses.
MIKE JOHNSON
[both chuckle] That is, uh- That is yes. That’s sex with or arousal from dogs. “Forniphilia”?
KYLE GETZ
No. I don’t know what that is.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, and it is getting turned on by using humans as furniture.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! I’ve seen that in dom/sub videos. Yeah. [Mike chuckles] Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “equinophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Into horses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, into horses! “Arachnophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Into spiders?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, into spiders.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, sorry, new worst one.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Uh, “formicophilia”?
KYLE GETZ
No, because you’re into Formica?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, yes.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
That is sex with or arousal from insects crawling on you.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Eugh. Ew. Eugh! Whew.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And, last one, “emys-” “emys-” “Emysphilia”?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, no. It’s arousal to being skinny.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, that is- That is yes. That is sex with or arousal from turtles. [Kyle chuckles] So, out of 20, you got 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9. So-
KYLE GETZ
Ugh, that means I lost.
MIKE JOHNSON
That means you lost, but-
KYLE GETZ
You know what? Losing at a bestiality game… I might be okay with that.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] But I did want to talk briefly about- I don’t know how many of those are actually real. So emysphilia, I put it last on purpose because it’s apparently- it was discovered by Dr. Daniel Schechner of the University of Hawaiʻi in 1959. He dedicated a brief portion of his monograph “The Varieties of Sexual Experience” to this fetish. In the book, he mentions a native Hawaiian islander, known to the reader as “Mr. Gor”, who confesses a strong sexual attraction to creatures belonging to the order Testudines. The thing is, it was all- it was all made up. It was absolutely fake. It was totally, totally made up. There was an article on the topic, written by June Torbati in a 2007 issue of the Yale Daily News, and she provided the background to the fake paraphilia. And, apparently, “Johan Behan” [TN: actually John Behan] is the name of somebody who, on purpose, made fake Wikipedia articles that sounded as real as possible in order to try to, uh, disrupt the system. So, he said- He created many fake articles for Wikipedia, the most successful of which was the entry on turtle fucking. To ensure others would find the article believable, he had to do more than just write one entry on emysphilia. He created several others relating to the fake fetish and linked them. Quote, “It’s an art of creating a web of phoniness,” he said. Additionally, striking an academic tone was important to creating an air of legitimacy. You need to write it in a way that makes it sound like it’s something possible. If you write it like an authoritative pronouncement, it tends to work better. Anyway, so, like- It’s like that “sex with tractors” thing that took off that’s not actually real. Like, that totally is fuckin’ made up.
KYLE GETZ
Or that birds aren’t real.
MIKE JOHNSON
Birds aren’t real. Uh, there was a case in Australia of a man that supposedly died banging a crocodile. Did not happen. It’s interesting, people love to lie about fuckin’ animals, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Dog the Booty Hunter!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] “Dog the Booty Hunter”?
KYLE GETZ
That’s a good porn name, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Sorry. [chuckles] Sorry, you were still saying stuff.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m glad you did it. No, no, that’s it. Just, like- Like- I think that it’s so taboo that people want to believe things about it.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Well, why would someone make up this weird thing if it’s not… if it’s not real? Like, it’s so absurd it seems like then it would have to be true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I could see that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I will say though, for sure, dogs and horses are real. That’s typically, in some studies, what the top of the list is.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. Top indeed. Um, so, what are your views on, like, should it be more accepted? How- What do you think about bestiality, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think that the crux of the situation is consent.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Animals can’t consent. Maybe some gorillas can, I don’t know. [Kyle chuckles] But, like- And maybe some dolphins can, when we get that, like, secret decoder ring figured out? But, to me, it’s about consent more than anything else, right? And no, your dog can’t consent. Like, it can look lovingly into your eyes as you rail it but that doesn’t mean, like, it’s actually into it. Like- Um, so- I mean, I think that, like other paraphilias, everything, we need to approach people with their humanity in mind and with compassion. And it’s, I don’t think, a victimless crime. I think- I think animals can’t consent and making them do sexy stuff with you is a violation so, therefore, not great. I don’t know. How about you?
KYLE GETZ
I listened to this lecture on the podcast called “Gresham College Lectures”, an episode from 2020 called “Loving Animals” by Joanna Bourke. And she talked about, like, some of the things that, like- I was really trying to think about this and trying to not have my judgmental attitude, and really think about it. And you’re right. Like, consent is absolutely one of those big things. She talked about, like, there are a lot of things we do with animals. We cuddle them, they lay in bed with us, we kiss them, we pet them lovingly, we treat them as our own family. Like, there are a lot of ways we treat animals and-
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, don’t fuck your family, everybody. Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
Depends. [Mike laughs] Step- [chuckles] That seems to be every porn, is your step-whoever. And, she also talked about the fact that animals- we often view animals and bestiality through the lens of violence, like something negative or bad has happened to them, and don’t view animals as having their own independent lifeworld. They have sex drives, they have- they, um, have desires and libidos, and they masturbate for pleasure, and they have sex with other animals for pleasure. They have sex with other animals outside of their species for pleasure, sometimes consensually sometimes not. Like, they- They have their own world and they deserve to be valued. So, I guess- She didn’t really say it directly but I guess she was arguing that there is a kind of love for animals that can be acceptable or something. She didn’t get me all- She didn’t get me there yet. I still agree that, like- I think- I do start to, like, “Let’s pick the extreme example of, like, ‘can a gorilla consent?’” but, like, I don’t- I don’t think that, like, animals can truly understand what is happening even if they can sign the word “yes” or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm, mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Can they, like, truly understand what is happening here? And- I don’t know. Yeah, so, your dog can look like he’s into it but I- Yeah, I still have an issue with, like, the consent and, even if they seem into it, how much do they understand about what- like, what’s happening, what pleasure you’re getting from this, and what you’re kinda doing to them?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think the view was interesting, reminding, like, animals have their own agency and deserve to, like, live, basically, and have their own sex drives. That was an interesting reminder that was like someone trying to view it from a different angle, but yeah, it didn’t- didn’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Didn’t convince me that that’s okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I remain unconvinced as well.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Well, that’s the verdict I guess.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
We didn’t talk about horse dicks even once.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Well, now we did!
MIKE JOHNSON
Now we did.
KYLE GETZ
What-
MIKE JOHNSON
I think is really interesting that we talked about, like, dudes with big penises are “hung like a horse”, “hung like a mule”, “hung like a donkey”, “hung like a rhino”, “hung like an animal.” Like, it’s-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re talking about fuckin’ bestiality!
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s an inhumanly large penis. It’s a- It’s an animal dick. Like, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
And that’s, like, sexy and okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes! Isn’t that- Like, what the fuck?
KYLE GETZ
So, okay, if you judge people-
MIKE JOHNSON
Show me your horse cocks, everybody. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
There’s no such thing as 10-inch horse dicks. That’s not true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, horse dicks for sure. Like, actual horses, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But if you judge people that, like, do the – again, like, the consensual – thing of either- Not all furries. It’s- For most of them, it’s not about sex. But for those where it is, that yiff, go- like, go for it. Or, like, you know, having sex with people pretending to be animals. All of that is like… no, like, that part is cool. Like, you’re consenting, you’re adults, you know what’s happening, and if you feel like it’s gross, like, yeah, just- You’re- That’s a good entry point, in my mind, of, like, we talk about “horse hung” and that’s okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So there’s something there to comparing to animals that we’ve all kind of just said is acceptable socially.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Okay, well, great. Uh, in the Patreon I’m gonna talk about 10 countries where bestiality is a thing.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. Okay. I’m interested and scared.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, me too. Where.
KYLE GETZ
And US is amongst them. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We should make sure that we are- we are no… scapegoat? Wait. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
[like a goat] Maaaaa. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest-
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re [baaing like a sheep] Baaaaack. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first… you motherfuckers, tickets are on sale now.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
For our live show.
KYLE GETZ
They went on sale May 1st.
MIKE JOHNSON
They went on sale May 1st. Uh, there is a promo code in the Patreon app that will get you 50% off, so be sure to use that.
KYLE GETZ
If you’re a Patreon member.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh, yeah. Go to gayishpodcast.com/live. All of the links to the tickets can be found in there. Sunday June 4th in New York, Friday June 23rd in Seattle, Saturday July 29th in Chicago, Sunday August 13th in San Francisco, Sunday September 10th in L.A., and Sunday October 15th in Houston. We would love to see you beautiful little faces.
KYLE GETZ
And, wonderful fuckers…
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
…m’fuckers, if you think you’re gonna go, please- I mean, both buy a ticket now because you get a discount because they’re on presale right now. So buy a ticket-
MIKE JOHNSON
Except New York, but yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Except New York. Um, buy a ticket now, for you and also for us. It helps us to know that people are gonna show up, because if no one shows up we’re not gonna do a show there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
So, like, please make sure you buy tickets now and bring your friends, and it’ll be a lovely time and you’ll get a drink with your ticket.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And that’ll be great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Also, everyone…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
…we’ve been doing a Gayish spotlight segment and putting it on the Patreon app.
KYLE GETZ
“We’ve been doing it” meaning we’ve done one so far.
MIKE JOHNSON
Two! We did two!
KYLE GETZ
It’s not up yet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
We will- We will publish the second soon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. Uh, but yeah, we had Queers in Your Ears which is a podcast. We did an interview with them and we did an interview with Brad Shreve from the podcast “Queer We Are”. And, even though it’s on the Patreon app, they’re public posts so anybody can go and listen to them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I’ve really liked both of the conversations we’ve had. Go listen to both of those podcasts. Yeah, I think they’re really interesting conversations about the people that make these LGBT podcasts, why they make them, what the podcasts are about. Brad’s was really interesting. He shared a lot about his story so, whenever that comes out, look out for it. And we’ll post about it on our socials, so- So yeah, keep an eye out for that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
Just a fun extra thing that we want to do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeeaah!
KYLE GETZ
And hopefully we’ll do more, like, interviews and discussions with LGBT podcasters and others that we think are interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Business owners… I dunno.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, important people…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not important people… whatever.
KYLE GETZ
Regular people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Animals.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, okay, it’s time for the Local Gay Bar Review!
KYLE GETZ
Ooo!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, this time I’m gonna talk to you about Boston, Massachusetts, and the bar is called “The Alley”, which is in an alley.
KYLE GETZ
Good name, good name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, yeah. Okay, so first of all, went there, it’s an adorable space. There’s like an upstairs, not like a- not like another floor but like a loft kind of area, a big wraparound bar, lots of booths, and saw lots of different kinds of people there, which, you know, is always a big thing for me. But, on this particular evening, the upstairs loft was taken over by, like, a pup/leather event of some kind.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
So there were a bunch of pup hoods and, like, a boy in full latex running around. And there was a tour guide up there, he was- “Pup Sticks” was his name.
KYLE GETZ
A tour guide?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. We went up the stairs and we definitely looked tentative like we weren’t sure that we belong. [Kyle chuckles] And so they, like, gave us a tour guide.
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
His name was “Pup Sticks” and he, like, took us around.
KYLE GETZ
That’s such a good idea. Like, I bet they see that on people’s faces and they’re like “You don’t know what’s happening, do you?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [both chuckle] Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was great. It was really, really great.
KYLE GETZ
That’s cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then I got recognized twice-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-there, independently.
KYLE GETZ
Because you’re so famous.
MIKE JOHNSON
It wasn’t the same- It wasn’t the same people. It was one person that was one booth over that was like “Are you Mike from Gayish?” and I was like “Yeah.” And then Tito Burrito.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, hi Tito!
MIKE JOHNSON
Ran into Tito Burrito that evening. And then, Kyle…! [Kyle gasps] I got laid.
KYLE GETZ
Oooh.
MIKE JOHNSON
5 dildos.
KYLE GETZ
Whooooooooaaaaaaaaaa! [Mike laughs] Baow baow baow baow! Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo! Confetti, confetti, confetti.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, but, you know, at least a half of one of those dildos is just to spite you. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I’m so happy. We made it happen together, everyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
They said- All the haters said it could never happen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Herem we are.
KYLE GETZ
Herem we are. I have two things.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
If you are a Patreon member and you’re listening to this the day before, and it’s Wednesday still, our happy hour’s tonight.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah!
KYLE GETZ
So come hang out with us. If you’re not a Patreon member, it already happened because you didn’t- you don’t have access to this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. There’s always next time.
KYLE GETZ
But, um, there’s always next time. So, it is Wednesday 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. The details will be posted to Patreon. So check Patreon for that info. Um, and we’re really excited. This year we’re gonna be sponsors of Trans Pride Seattle so-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeeah!
KYLE GETZ
Now, more than ever, it’s super important to have positive trans visibility, trans celebrations, trans pride, trans joy. There’s an organization that puts on Trans Pride and has before, so it’s- If you’re in the Seattle area, you can check them out. It’s on the same day that we’re doing a show separately so, you know, go to one and then the other. Um, but yeah. We’re excited to be sponsors this year.
MIKE JOHNSON
Everybody’s like doing all this hand wringing, appropriately so, about all the anti-trans legislation that’s going on in this country right now. If you want to do something about it, get your goddamn checkbook out and give some money to some trans people.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We are on social @gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, especially if it’s your Gayest & Straightest, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply. Oh and Momsplaining! Get your Momsplaining questions in.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo, yep. If you want to join our Discord, or our Facebook group, or our Spaces, we have all those links there at gayishpodcast.com/contacts. So you can find all that. And then, if you want to email, us our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
USA! [both chuckle] Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, I’ll go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is: when you and I went out for drinks, we pretended to be on a date to get someone to stop talking to us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we did!
KYLE GETZ
Um, he did drop a little bit of knowledge on us where he said “There’s no shame in the game if there’s a little Hershey’s kiss.” [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Which I wrote- I immediately wrote down because I was like “That’s hilarious.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You know, if you’re havin’ sex with someone and there’s a little Hershey’s kiss…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…it’s okay. It happens.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and- Uh, not our first rodeo with that particular gentleman either. He had hit on Marty.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. [Mike laughs] He was there with your [chuckles] brothers and he didn’t remember that we had already talked to him before, I don’t think.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It was great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, my straightest is: yesterday watched the movie “Dude, Where’s My Car?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh! Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Do you remember that movie at all?
MIKE JOHNSON
I just remember the “Dude” and “Bro” being written on their backs.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. “Sweet” and “Dude”.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Sweet” and “Dude”. Yeah, there you go.
KYLE GETZ
That movie was about aliens.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, great.
KYLE GETZ
The entire time it was, like, aliens were on Earth trying to find something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I just completely forgot. Like, my friend asked me and he was like “Do you remember what that was about?” I was like “Yeah, finding a car,” and he was like “No, it was about aliens.” It was also transphobic, which sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
Um, came out in like 2000 or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was a different time, I hope?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, not different enough. It’s kind of like- A lot of things were transphobic around that time and didn’t even- Yeah. Anyway, that’s my straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Uh, well, so the gayest thing about me this week… I apologize in advance because technically it’s two weeks in a row of exactly the same thing.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I’ve done that with Kraken.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dakota, the hot trainer…
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…this morning, in an even skimpier tank top.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
I had to train with him.
KYLE GETZ
Oohhh!
MIKE JOHNSON
So it wasn’t just from across the room. It was like- He was, like, touching me [Kyle chuckles] and moving me to do things different. And, like, I could see the- Like, the- His cleavage was kind of poppin’ out at the top of it and he smelled amazing. [Kyle chuckles] Like, whatever body wash or, like, deodorant, like, was- It was- Here- I’m- Oh man. Okay. [Kyle chuckles] Dakota. Dakota is the gayest thing about me this week. [Kyle laughs] But then the straightest thing about me this week was to throw him off the trail, I guess. I don’t know. I started talking to him about hockey. Which, the sum total of my hockey knowledge comes from being at the bar with you when we were on a date.
KYLE GETZ
Oh our date, yep!
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause the Kraken- or, you know, the Stanley Cup playoffs and the Seattle Kraken. But uh, yeah. So I was like [in a deep voice] “Do- Do you follow hockey?” [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
But now you know that-
MIKE JOHNSON
“Please touch me more.” [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
You know about the playoffs. That’s some good hockey knowledge that seems-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. You know.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I forgot, in addition to watching “Dude, Where’s My Car?”, we stopped it so my friend could turn it on to the hockey game where the L.A…. I’m gonna say “Hawkeyes”… were playing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Kings?
KYLE GETZ
Yea, that sounds more right. …Were playing against the Edmonton Oilers, and Edmonton won.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. They have a big mall there.
KYLE GETZ
That’s cool. That’s gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey, Canada, I see you.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- [laughs] I know what’s up. Oh, hey, Canadian Discord.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles] Uh, a listener’s Gayest & Straightest. This time, my favorite kind comes from a voicemail.
KYLE [listener, voicemail]
Hey there, gentlemen. This is Kyle calling. And yes, another Kyle, but I’m older than Kyle and so I came first, and so I think that means I win, right?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yes, it does.
KYLE [listener, voicemail]
That’s how that works.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
KYLE [listener, voicemail]
So, I’m calling in with my Gayest & Straightest. Uhh, my straightest is that I fell through a- Well, I fell through a hole in the floor at my dad’s house and scraped up my shin, uh, really bad. And there was no antibiotics or anything to treat it and so I just poured vodka over the open wound to disinfect it. And, uh, my gayest is that when I met the contractor over there to fix the hole in the floor he was asking me if my shin was healing up nicely, and I told him the story of pouring the vodka on my shin, and then I proceeded to tell him that it was the butchest thing I’ve done in a while, which made him tilt his head slightly at why I would say it that way. So, anyways, very much enjoy the show. Appreciate you both, have a great night. Bye.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks, first Kyle. Kyle I. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, original Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
I definitely think that using anything that’s not antibiotic ointment as an antibiotic is, like, that’s straight.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Yep. Like, they- Archer did that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Just put dirt on it or whatever. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
And also, it was very early on that- I think it was your brother Murph that said to us, like, “Calling stuff ‘Butch’ is gay.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Like, dudes don’t talk about how butch they are by doing stuff. Like, that- Yeah. So, absolutely. That was a great one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, thanks. Send ‘em in, folks. Uhhh, that’s it. We did it!
KYLE GETZ
That’s it!
MIKE JOHNSON
We talked about [chuckles] bestiality.
KYLE GETZ
We talked about bestiality a bunch. I- Yeah. Um, I want to thank… and pray that you continue [both chuckle] after this episode… our Super Gap Bridgers [takes a deep breath]: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.
MIKE JOHNSON
Good work, Kyle! You did it.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
You made it all the way through in one breath.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm!
MIKE JOHNSON
And not just because of editing.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. Alright-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s it!
KYLE GETZ
But that made it sound like I didn’t make it through, because-
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Ha ha!
KYLE GETZ
No, I didn’t- I really did it! Okay, here I go again.
MIKE JOHNSON
No! God! No no no! That’s it. This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be ewe!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s spelled e-w-e… in this episode only. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Quit. I’m out. I’m done.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
KYLE GETZ
We talked about how we feel about bestiality as a whole. I dislike-
MIKE JOHNSON
Just hole? [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Jesus. I dislike people’s connection of it to gay shit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think if- Let’s pretend there’s a world in which I’m just missing out on some part of it and, in the future, we’re like “Oh, there’s some- Like, everyone was just looking down on this thing. There should be some version of this that’s acceptable to society. We just didn’t know all that stuff.” You gotta make a case for that on your own. You have to make a separate case for bestiality if that’s what you think should be legal or okay. Like, you gotta push for that as an independent thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I really dislike trying to grab on to gay rights and that movement as why you think it should be your- it should make the same progress as gay stuff?
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
I think you need to work hard to find- get people to research this, find the science that says it. You need to make a independent separate case, and I think it’s- because I think it often harms the progress that we make by people trying to attach themselves to it. I think a lot of people see a lot of good progress in gay shit and want to attach to it and there’s- Some of that is good. There’s racism within the gay community, we should be connecting those and talking about those two things. I don’t need bestiality being attached to it, You need to go make your own case for this issue.
MIKE JOHNSON
…A lot of TERFs say that about trans stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. That just, like- But there is a history that connects, um, trans and gay issues together. They are intertwined through history, through people’s judgment and associations with gender, gender norms, gender stereotypes, and gay shit. Like, those- Like, I can look back and find why they’re connected through history, and time, and judgment. And I- Like, you don’t- We don’t see the, like, “Originally the gay and bestiality movements were connected.” Like, that’s just not the case.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s not true, so-
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t say they were right.
KYLE GETZ
No, no, I know. [Mike laughs] I know. It’s a fair argument and I had a real smart response.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] But do you agree? Do you, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay. Alright.
MIKE JOHNSON
Totally.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. That’s all.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 330 Transgender II (w/ Ezra Michel)
Ezra Michel (@ezramichelmusic) joins us to talk about everything: the word “pussyboy,” bisexuality, Grindr, male privilege, chasers, HRT, addiction, gender dysphoria, self-harm, big clits, t4t, and more.
In this episode: News- 4:30 || Main Topic (Transgender)- 15:37 || Guest (Ezra Michel)- 21:21 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:01:37
Follow Ezra on:
– @ezramichelmusic on IG & TikTok
– @p_ssyboyapparel on IG, or visit pussyboyapparel.com
– @welcomehomehair on IG
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour go on pre-sale starting May 1 (except NYC, which is already in pre-sale). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
The next Patreon happy hour is on May 3 @ 6pm Pacific / 9pm Eastern. Anyone at any level of support is welcome, so join today at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that must have three strikes, because we are out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs] And so many balls before that. [Kyle chuckles] I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…
KYLE GETZ
Today…
MIKE JOHNSON
…We’re gonna talk about trans stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We are doing our long-requested, long-awaited interview with a transmasc person. We’ve talked to a transfem person, we’ve talked to a nonbinary person, we- I mean, we’ve had other trans people on in general, but this is that kind of, like, let’s just ask all the questions you’re not supposed to, so you don’t do it. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. That’s exactly right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, boy, my list of questions is juicy.
KYLE GETZ
Ooooo, interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. He’s in for a wild ride.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
Quick correction. [Kyle gasps] At the risk of being church racist and saying that they all are alike, I messed up the story last week when I said that the church in Zillah that hosted the Romeo and Juliet play that had everybody upset because of the trans rights thing and the potentially gender-nonconforming person that was cast as Romeo, it was not the Church of Godzilla. It was the Church of the Nazarene. Those are different churches. They’re not all the same.
KYLE GETZ
You’re welcome, Zillah, for that correction.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You were on pins and needles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. That’s it! It’s a different church, Kyle. They have more than one church in Zillah, believe it or not.
KYLE GETZ
Oo, good for them!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Well, or, bad for us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you know. Okay. Hey, everybody!
KYLE GETZ
Hey, buddies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ listen up.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, hi.
MIKE JOHNSON
You dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Hi, friends.
MIKE JOHNSON
We are going on a tour this year. It’s a six city stop, not to be confused with the three-hour tour in Gilligan’s Island. Tickets are on sale May the 1st, and our production assistant Derek reminded me that this is the last episode before that.
KYLE GETZ
I did, but thanks. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
No, no! Let- Give- Let’s give Derek credit where he doesn’t deserve it. Uh, yeah, tickets are on sale May the 1st. Please buy the tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Those are presale tickets, so they are gonna be discounted for now. So now’s your chance to swoop in and get your tickets.
MIKE JOHNSON
Except for New York City, because those were- have already been in presale and will stay in presale until May 1st and then they will go up in price unless you’re a Patreon person. Also, I’ll be posting to Patreon the discount code, which gets you 50% off. That will also happen May the 1st, so check the app before you buy your tickets so that you can get- you can get, you know, cash money back.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And, Patreon, you get your discount no matter when you buy it. That’s one of your- the benefits that we’re doing this time around. But please, if you’re gonna come, please buy tickets so we know. It’s really helpful to, like, have numbers and stuff.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So even though you don’t have- there’s no rush because your discount is permanent-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-it’ll help us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it sooner rather than later because it helps my blood pressure.
KYLE GETZ
[sighing] Yeah, yeah. Samesies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, everybody, I just want- I don’t- I want everybody to know we’re not even gonna break even on this tour.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, one way to talk all of these fuckin’ bars into letting us do our gay-ass podcast was saying that we were gonna buy you all a drink. [Kyle chuckles] So, like, at least half of your ticket is just a drink ticket, like, so that you can, you know, have a cocktail with us. So-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We’re doin’ this for the love of the game.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Just- Just- Just- Just keep that in mind, that, like, your ticket price includes a beverage. That’s all.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Come out. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. We’re gonna- We’re excited to- Like Mike said, we’re doing these shows not to make money or anything – because we won’t – but just because we love doing them, and people have wanted for us to start doing live shows, and it’s great to see people. So, come out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Yep, absolutely. It’s gayishpodcast.com/live, is where all of the details are. But uh, that’s June 4th in New York, June 23rd here in Seattle, July 29th in Chicago, August 13th in San Francisco, September 10th in Los Angeles, and October 15th in Houston, right in Kyle’s back… hole.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah. So, do it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it. Now the news?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the first: Barry Humphries, known for his drag persona Dame Edna Everage, is dead at the age of 89. Now, I mention him because I don’t want people to give me the “I can’t believe you didn’t,” bullshit. And-
KYLE GETZ
Mm. And a good reason to- A good motivator for anything! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And I- But I want to- I want to be clear that he’s problematic.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I don’t necessarily want to, like, gloss over that. Like, it’s okay to be sad. He was a big deal… and kind of problematic. So, he was hilarious, a genius, um, and for sure like a pioneer in bringing drag into the mainstream like well before RuPaul was even fuckin’ born, right? He’s been doing drag as mainstream comedy things since the 50s and 60s, but he did say some pretty heinous shit about trans people in 2016. He was wholly unapologetic about it and then doubled down to talk about political correctness as being a disease and that cancel culture is ruining comedy. Um, he was also maybe racist? At least told a racist joke that Salma Hayek got involved in and was super pissed about. So, anyway, just, like, he’s a big deal and funny, and it’s okay to be sad. He was an almost 90, product of his time, blah, blah, blah, but also kind of a problematic dude. Also, he was straight and married, so whatever.
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Weird.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What a weird guy. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, weird dude.
KYLE GETZ
Huh. I mean, we talked about him at a party. Like, it was big enough that, like, this came up in our friend group, so, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Exactly right.
KYLE GETZ
It’s, like- I don’t really know why I know him, but I know him. Like, he’s just kind of that ubiquitous.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, that’s what an icon is, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, not A-list. Okay, uh, [Kyle laughs] news the second. So, the United States House of Representatives, which I will remind you is controlled by the dickbag asshole fuckface party the Republican GOP party, has passed the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act-
KYLE GETZ
Oh no.
MIKE JOHNSON
-which prohibits those assigned male at birth from competing on female sports teams in K-12 schools and universities that receive federal funding.
KYLE GETZ
Not, like, working on making sure they get equal pay, or opportunities, or access, or any of the actual issues that affect women’s sports.
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct. [Kyle chuckles] Correct, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Cool, let’s protect those women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or anything else that matters, right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it was along party lines 219 to 203. There were 13 people who didn’t vote, which, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, way to stay on the fence for that one. But it’s also just theater. It’s all theater. It is dead on arrival in the Democrat-controlled Senate so this will not pass into law, but they just are totally, you know, creating a situation where they can say “We tried to save women and the Democrats fucked it up!” because it’s- this is their wedge issue. Like, abortion is our wedge issue, their issue is trans stuff. Anyway, so-
KYLE GETZ
We shouldn’t downplay, like, that they are then directly negatively impacting trans people’s lives. So, although they’re using that for political game, then they’re like shitting on a giant part of our community, which sucks to be the recipient of that dump.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, that was not my best metaphor.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, which- But so- It’s not working in the federal level, because the Democrats control the White House and the Senate. But at the state level, shit is fucked and is getting worse. So this is news to be.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is that a trans lawmaker in the state of Montana has been denied the opportunity to speak until she apologizes for saying lawmakers would have, quote, “blood on their hands” if they supported a bill that bans gender-affirming medical care for trans youth.
KYLE GETZ
Well, stop killing trans people then – you know? – and then you won’t have blood on your hands anymore.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That seems like a you problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is her first term in the state house and- Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
The party that loves free speech is not letting her speak. Like- [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. For sure. For sure. Also- Well, okay, so there’s a couple of things. She also references the small government thing, that, like, quote, “It’s hypocritical, but it’s coming from a caucus who talks about limited government as their goal, and then the very same caucus is pushing to take away medical care [that] is accepted by every major medical association from people like me.” “I think there’s inherently a hypocritical nature there, but I’m not surprised that they would stoop so low as to misgender me.” In all of the press releases released by the Republicans, they repeatedly referred to her using male pronouns. And just- It’s disgusting. It’s absolutely disgusting. What she actually said: “The only thing I will say is, if you vote yes on this bill and yes on these amendments, I hope the next time there’s an invocation when you bow your heads in prayer, you see the blood on your hands.”
KYLE GETZ
Oooh, that’s great.
MIKE JOHNSON
So they say that she is being uncivil. The speaker of the house, Matt Regier [said “reh-GEAR”] – Regier? [“reh-JEE-ER”] Regier? [“reh-JEE-ay”] I dunno, he’s a fucker – says, quote, “It’s up to me to maintain decorum here on the house floor, to protect dignity and integrity, and any representative that I don’t think can do that will not be recognized.” She posted a picture of her microphone with her “I want to talk” light on it’s been like that.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
She has said “My light is on, and I am ready to speak on behalf of the constituents who elected me to do so.” It’s really interesting to me that it’s like, I don’t know, legal to, like, just like ignore an elected representative. Like, you just don’t get to participate in… what’s in the constitution? It just is fuckin’ crazy to me.
KYLE GETZ
And one person gets to be like “Do I call on you or not?” Like, this isn’t like Mrs. Hampton’s 3rd grade class where, like, “Billy, you’ve talked too much. Like, let’s keep it quiet for a second,” this is, like, someone that was elected to speak.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Oh, Montana, why do you have to be like this? Oh, everywhere else that’s red or even purple?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, America.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why are you like this? This is why we can’t have nice things.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, she said “I am going to continue to do what I was sent here to do. I will punch in on every bill that I feel like I have things to say about things to speak on. And I will punch in, ask, and demand to be recognized.” “Where that goes from here depends largely on the Speaker and the body — if they are going to see fit to allow me to partake in debate as is my right as a duly elected representative of the state of Montana.” Good luck. Uhh, news the last.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
My favorite news story of the week.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, Lizzo.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Oh, yea yea yea yea yea yea yea.
MIKE JOHNSON
Lizzo was in Knoxville, Tennessee at Thompson-Boling Arena and invited a bunch of drag queens to join her on stage, which is… not yet illegal? But, um, the state of Tennessee-
KYLE GETZ
It’s trying to be.
MIKE JOHNSON
About a month ago, Republican Governor Bill Lee signed into law a bill that criminalizes public drag performances but that bill has been temporarily halted after a Memphis-based theatre group sued. So, it’s legal for now on a court technicality kind of a thing. So- But Lizzo’s definitely, like, flaunting “I brought drag queens with me, here we go. Fuckin’ deal with it.”
KYLE GETZ
That’s how you do it. That was amazing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s how you use your platform and your- Like, there are certain people that have the ability to make a statement, and make a big splash, and make a show, and it’s a very small number of people that can do things like that and she’s one of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. During the show she said, quote, “In light of recent and tragic events and current events, I was told by people on the internet, ‘Cancel your shows in Tennessee,’ ‘Don’t go to Tennessee.’” “Their reason was valid, but why would I not come to the people who need to hear this message the most?”
KYLE GETZ
Mm. That’s kind of a consistent thing, like you hear people say “Well, like, we’re not going to this state,” and that- You know, for whatever reason. Like, I remember this happening around bathroom bills.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And people would be like “Oh, well we’re not gonna go to your state then because of that bill,” and I can see that being a useful tactic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you don’t get our money and people are- But then, I also see people going and- But, if you’re gonna go, do something like make a donation, or make a statement, or make a point out of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I think both can be true, and they don’t cancel each other out at all, that a business who has nothing to do with queer shit can say “Change your shit or we’re pulling our business out.” Like the NCAA or, like, fuckin’ Salesforce did that in Indiana during the RFRA stuff. That is totally valid. I also think queer people – queer content makers – can and totally should go to those places and give them the giant middle finger in person, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, saying “Be nicer to gay people or we’re out”: valid. Gay people going to a place of saying “Here we are, we’re fuckin’ gay, deal with us”: valid.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, the drag queens that were featured included Asia O’Hara, Aquaria, Kandy Muse, and Vanessa Vanjie from RuPaul drag race. There’s a fuck ton of them, and my favorite part is that, even with all that fabulousness, Lizzo still is like- stands out in this picture. [Kyle laughs] She’s like- Lizzo might be my favorite drag queen now. [Kyle laughs] Anyway, fuck you, Tennessee, and the horse you rode in on.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Thanks, Lizzo. Um, I would like to spea-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, right. [Mike laughs] I was already on to- I was moving this ship forward.
MIKE JOHNSON
Crack that whip.
KYLE GETZ
Someone’s got to, and it’s not-
MIKE JOHNSON
Crack that whip! Devo. Now we gotta add that to the list.
KYLE GETZ
Licorice whip. That’s the Simpsons. Um, I would like to thank [chuckles] both licorice whips and the following new Patreon members- one new Patreon member: Philip and Gilbert.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that really two?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, Philip and Gilbert, are we being honest about how many people are signing up for this account?
MIKE JOHNSON
Why does that sound like Bert and Ernie to me?
KYLE GETZ
It sounded like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern [both chuckle] or something, to me. I’m gonna just- Instead, this is Philbert.
MIKE JOHNSON
Philbert?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Welcome.
KYLE GETZ
Because you’re only allowed to have one name, sorry.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You can’t have two people. Thank you, Philbert- or Gillip? Nope, Philbert.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Philbert” is better.
KYLE GETZ
Um, if you want to join Patreon, get bonus content, have me try to say your name-
MIKE JOHNSON
Get 50% off your live show tickets!
KYLE GETZ
50% of your live show ticket… we have a happy hour coming up, so now’s a great time to join, on May the 3rd at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. We all get together, have drinks, chat. It’s a lot of fun. So, you can join for just $2 and everyone is invited. So look out for the details that’ll be posted on May the 3rd to the Patreon app. There’s a lot to check Patreon for.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. You should, like, make sure that your Patreon account works and that your shit is up to date.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Because that’s- We use it for talking to you about stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, so make sure you join, and see us there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. You wanna talk about trans stuff?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do it. Um, so, I wanted to start off with- We are, of course- I think maybe I could have, or we could have, done a better job of this in previous discussions where this is like the topic and what we’re doing, is, like, we are interviewing one person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And there are a variety of experiences.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, I think, partially, one of the reason that we got requests for transmasc is both it’s another experience that is important showcase, and transfem people do get a lot more kind of visibility in like in actors, and models, and people you think of tend to be trans women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, want to make sure we give the spotlight to everyone. But then, of course, in doing so we will- There’s plenty of other people and experiences out there, but I just wanted to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, it feels- It feels like, these days, there’s more focus on trans women like because of sports, because of like bathroom bills and stuff. Like- Like, I’m not gonna say “Trans men have it easier,” because they clearly don’t, but they don’t seem to be the target as much lately.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. It’s interesting, and maybe we’ll ask- We’re gonna have Ezra on, who I saw on Instagram…
MIKE JOHNSON
Pussyboy!
KYLE GETZ
Pussyboy. [both chuckle] Um, so we’ll talk him more about just his experience and all that. But, just for now, I wanted to give an overview from Pew Research-
MIKE JOHNSON
Pew, Pew.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. [Mike laughs] …Uh, from 2022 that said-
MIKE JOHNSON
I love the look on your face. You paused and you- Like, you-
KYLE GETZ
It was like “This was happening,” and w- [Mike laughs] I thought we were gonna breeze past it real quick, but we’re hovering in this area. That’s fine.
MIKE JOHNSON
One of these days I won’t be able to control myself, and surprise you.
KYLE GETZ
I- You’re- You’re right, I would be very surprised.
MIKE JOHNSON
I did not today. Go ahead. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
So, 1.6% of people in the US say that their gender is different than that assigned to them at birth, which, I like that question that it’s not just like “Are you a trans man or woman? Or are-” You know, it’s not limiting it. It’s just “Is your gender different than that assigned to you at birth?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Of those- And this is where we will- Like, they will not give us this full spectrum of all possible identities but at least the data they have is, of that 1.6%, the .6 are trans men or women and 1% is nonbinary.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Of course, there are other identities that could be- Like, we could discuss in here genderfluid people, genderqueer, two-spirit. Like, there are a lot of different identities beyond just these, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And then also, what I was surprised by, I didn’t realize this, for the people ages 18 to 29 that number is 5%. 5% say they are not their gender assigned at birth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, wow.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So this is one of those things where we don’t know the true number of trans people, because they are so discriminated against. Go see our episode on left-handedness. It’s not that there’re more left-handed people, we just stopped being shitty to them. Like, there are not more trans people in the world, it’s just becoming more well known. People now can put a word to their experience.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or, counterpoint: remember when we said the glitter was transiting the fish?
KYLE GETZ
Or-
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe drag queen’s sequins are transing our kids.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, drag queen’s sequins are the new… fish glitter. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
You all knew it was coming. You could have predicted that sentence from a mile away. Um, yeah, so I think we’ll get to see the real number, you know, as it becomes more talked about and hopefully more-
MIKE JOHNSON
You like to bring up the left-handed thing pretty regularly, right? That, like, left-handedness, there’s this huge rise and left-handedness that is not because people are more left-handed, it’s that we stopped being shitty to them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Exactly. So, another just interesting data point: 44% of people, again in the US, say they know a trans person personally.
MIKE JOHNSON
How many percent?
KYLE GETZ
44.
MIKE JOHNSON
That seems high to me.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s going to be one of the ways that there’s a difference, is, as you know- And this- Same is true of gay people. Like, the more you like get to know actual humans and not think of people as identities-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-then the more you treat them with respect. Unless you’re Republican.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is easy to hate an idea, it is hard to hate a person.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Visibility matters.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
#ComeOut. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That’s beautiful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
You almost- You- Maybe a little bit more, uh, selling at the end next time, but-
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I didn’t know where I was going with it when I started the sentence, so. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Podcasting. That’s what podcasting is, it’s starting something you don’t know how to finish? That’s also like sex with me. [Mike chuckles] Um, anything else before we…?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m sure- Well, we may or may not reiterate this with him when he when he when he joins us. And I just want to be clear to everybody…
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re going to ask questions because we have been given explicit permission to ask these questions. This is shit that you should not just casually ask a trans person. You just- Just don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We get to because this is our show.
KYLE GETZ
And this is what we’re doing, and we’re like- And It’s okay to be curious about things. Also, what- Where do you- How do you channel your curiosity? Like, listen to this or you can look things up online. Plenty of people are willing to share their stories. But yeah, this is all shit- Don’t ask a trans person any of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Just don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Just don’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t. Um, okay, great. So, we’re gonna take a break and when we get back we’re gonna have Ezra with us, Pussyboy, and we’re gonna have a big ole chat.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, um, should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We’re back.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and we want to welcome Ezra Michel to the show! Thank you so much for being here.
EZRA MICHEL
Thanks for having me.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, so, I discovered you through Instagram and then I quickly discovered your use of the word “pussyboy”. [chuckles] So there’s-
EZRA MICHEL
Mm, yes.
KYLE GETZ
We want to ask you about a lot of things, but I thought that might be a place to start. Like, tell me a little bit about the word “pussyboy”.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s not just a thing that we called you at the top of the show, that’s, like, your-
KYLE GETZ
We did reference it, but you- [Mike laughs] Yes, you use that word when- [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
Yes, yes, I use that word. I love that word. It’s, uh- It started because I was making a Reel on Instagram about having a UTI, and it was like a vulnerable Reel. I just, like, started talking and I just posted it. It was like… I said the word “pussy” in reference to my own body, and it was the first time that I had ever said it publicly. Like, I used it in like personal life, like, for a while, but it was the first time- And I knew when I posted it, I was like “Wow, I said the word ‘pussy’ like three times in this video.” [Mike and Kyle laugh] “I wonder- Like, I wonder what’s gonna happen. I wonder if people will, like, notice.” And, of course, tran- binary trans guys noticed. And some of the binary trans guys that had been following me decided to publicly announce they’re unfollowing me because of that word. And I noti- I was just like “Wow, that is so incredible, that one word has that effect on us as a community.” And I remember being really triggered by that word myself at one point in my transition. And, um- I don’t know, it just sort of like made me think about, like, how I healed from it. And it was just from exposure to it, and starting to use it playfully, and getting comfortable with my body, and getting comfortable with that word. And it just sort of like dawned on me like “Oh, I could make a funny phrase out of this, like ‘pussyboy’,” and as like a reclamation or like a way to expose myself to it in a way that was fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I was just gonna ask if that feels like reclamation, if that’s like empowerment-through-taking-it-back kind of a thing.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, it was a way that- A lot of times, I felt- I felt emasculated.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
You know? Like, I’d be on Grindr and like people would message me telling me that I was hot or whatever and that they didn’t mind that I had a pussy, as opposed to, like, you know, being excited by it. It was like “Oh, like, I don’t mind, even, that you have one. Like, it’s okay with me,” and I’m like “That’s not… [chuckles] If you think that that’s a way into my pants, that’s not.” [all chuckle] You know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you mentioned Grindr, so first- Right out of the gate, like, what is your sexual orientation, gender identity, pronouns, all of that?
EZRA MICHEL
I use he/him pronouns primarily, but all pronouns are fine with me. I identify as bisexual because I think it’s a cute word. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve never heard that explanation for why someone identifies as bisexual, but I love it.
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, it’s like cute, it’s historic. Like, there’s more history to it. I think it’s like… mm, bi! [Mike and Kyle laugh] Um, and uh, “queer” is fine. I guess, like, “pansexual” is a word that probably encompasses my sexuality the best but I don’t like that word. It’s just, like, annoying to me, so-
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And then, I identify as a trans man, a nonbinary trans man.
KYLE GETZ
Talk to me about- Like, some people may be confused at the idea of, like… “man”, the fact that “man” is in there feels binary but you’re saying “nonbinary trans man”. Can you tell me about those two words working together?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I mean, I like identifying as a man. I think it’s a fun like little “Haha, me too.” Like, I’m in this club as well.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
EZRA MICHEL
Like… I don’t know, like, there’s a part of me that just feels like it’s important to take up space in that category to diversify [chuckles] what it means to be a man, you know? And I do walk through the world as a man, so I have a lot of male privilege. I know what it feels like to not have male privilege and then have male privilege, and there is a- There’s such a thing as male privilege and it does exist. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I can definitely confirm. I love the way I’m treated now, it’s awesome compared to what it was like before.
KYLE GETZ
I should have mentioned up top: you are a musician, a model, you created- You’re locked into- You created PUSSYBOY APPAREL. That word is big in your presence. You’re a barber. So, you are- You do a lot of things, so I should have mentioned that. But, okay- I- It’s interesting, so few people can have the experience of gaining male privilege in a way that you’re describing. What don’t people that have just lived their lives as men having that privilege and not recognizing it- Like, what- How did that change? What did that change for you?
EZRA MICHEL
I guess it just made me more confident, like more certain that people would listen to me when I started speaking. When my voice dropped, the way that I could grab people’s attention was different. The way that I could keep people’s attention was different. And I’m somebody who, like, you know, even though I have like a- Like, my voice registers as male most of the time. I still sometimes get misgendered on the phone, because I- like, I sound like a faggot, [Mike and Kyle laugh] and we know that.
KYLE GETZ
For those that can’t see, there’s a little bit of a hand- a wrist motion that accompanied that.
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, we all know- Like, yeah, it’s kind of like- I talked like this before my voice dropped, and then once my voice dropped I was like getting- like, people were receiving me as a gay man, a cis gay man. And I was like “Why does everyone think I’m gay?” I just really didn’t think to myself “Oh, like, the way that I speak is gonna stay the same, it’s just- it’s gonna be in a lower register,” so I still sound very effeminate in the way that I speak. That didn’t change from testosterone.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
EZRA MICHEL
I guess, like, why I said that is because, like, I have male privilege but I have the male privilege of like an effeminate gay man. So there’s still, like, you know, I still like people disregarding what I’m saying. You know, mechanics, and construction workers, and things like that. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Do you- Are you good with like things like cars, or construction, or like home stuff? Like, I am not good at- Someone should disregard me absolutely, because I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. Do you- Are you good at-
EZRA MICHEL
I actually do.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
My dad is a plumbing contractor and I worked for him for two years, so I know plumbing-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
-and I know a lot of construction. I built my barber shop, actually. I made that barber shop.
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
Very cool.
KYLE GETZ
That’s really impressive. Good for you, damn, I wish I knew stuff like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m really thankful that when the zombie apocalypse happens there will still be people that can get shit done in the world [Mike and Kyle chuckle] in the world, so.
EZRA MICHEL
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, me and my partner watch Survivor and I’m always like “I could do that. I could do that.” I could eat a worm.
KYLE GETZ
I’m like- They like show up and get off the plane and I’m like… I would be outskies. Like, right now is about when I would quit. They’re like “Welcome,” and I’d be like “Okay, thank you. Bye.” Like, I- [Mike and Ezra chuckle] Yeah. I’m really curious, you talked a little bit about your experience on Grindr, like, man, what’s- Grindr I already think of- I got kicked off Grindr, so I don’t know what it’s- I don’t- Who knows what it’s been like.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not gotten better, how ‘bout that. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I just think of it as a really toxic place already, so yeah, what’s being on Grindr or what has it been like?
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, I used to use it. I don’t use it anymore. Me and my partner are monogamous. But when I was out there, you know, for the most part it was unsolicited dick pics and people trying to get my nudes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Mm.
EZRA MICHEL
And I hooked up with, like, probably I would say like under 10 people from Grindr and none of them were incredibly like life changing or anything. It was just always like “Oh, you came, and now we’re done. Awesome.” [Kyle chuckles] ‘Cause like, gay- Like, cis gay men often are like really turned on by the fact that I- Like, I guess the people that are like reaching out to me and like actually making an effort, they’re turned on by my juxtaposition of parts. They’re like “This is hot,” “You’re hot,” whatever. And then, once we like get together and actually we’re like meeting up in person, they seem to get like little nervous. Like, they’re like all talk. They’re like “I’m gonna eat your pussy and you’re gonna cum like 10 times,” and I’m like “Ugh, I doubt it,” but, like… [Mike and Kyle laugh] if you say so. Like, if you really s- And then they’ll go down on me for like two minutes and then feel like, you know, whatever, like they didn’t achieve what they thought they’d achieve in two minutes. And then they’re like, “Did you cum?” and I’m like “Bitch, no.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Girl, no, [chuckles] I didn’t. You’d know.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Would give you an A for effort, but you don’t deserve it,” right?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, you don’t deserve it. And then- Yeah. I mean, it- That was like how- That was like a very consistent experience for me. So, I kind of gave up on the hookup thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
A lot of trans guys I’m aware of on social media or dating apps feel- They talk about trans chasers as being a thing. Um, I would assume that that’s most interactions. Is that true?
EZRA MICHEL
I don’t know. I have a hard time with that because it’s, like, I prefer people who, like, are transamorous – people who, like, like trans people or are attracted to trans people – because there’s a higher chance that they’re like experienced with us. Yeah, so it’s like- It’s, like, a fine line between people who are just genuinely attracted to trans people versus people who fetishize us. And I feel like the chasers are the ones who just dehumanize us and see us as like sexual objects, as opposed to human beings with a really rich history, and like an interesting past, and like an interesting story. Because, like, that can be a really attractive quality in somebody, to, like- You know, I’m attracted to trans people because we’re like fascinating and cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
EZRA MICHEL
You know? In a human way, not just like “Oh, like, hot. That guy has a pussy. Like, holes,” you know? “Boy with holes.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
EZRA MICHEL
Which is like- You know, I get it, but also, like, it’s not nice…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
…to be seen as a boy with just some holes.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve seen a lot of dudes – cis dudes – who have on their profile that they are “trans competent”. That’s a- That’s a identifier I’ve seen.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you have a reaction to that, as like a thing to put in a profile?
EZRA MICHEL
[chuckles] I mean, that’s a little cocky. [Mike and Kyle laugh] I think that I wouldn’t- I wouldn’t pursue somebody who’s, like, boasting about that. I’d probably be like “Eugh, cringe,” personally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I just- You know, don’t be weird about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, that’s the thing. Like, don’t be all weird. Like… it’s not- It’s not attractive. Like- But maybe some trans people would be like “Oh, that’s a safe person,” you know? I just think that’s cringe as hell.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Makes sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, you talked a little bit about being on testosterone. How- Tell me about your HRT journey. Like, what was that like?
EZRA MICHEL
Well, I was 18 when I started. I’m 27 now, turning 28 soon so I’m like 9 years as of March 3rd. 9 years on T… which makes me like a grandpa in the community. [Mike laughs] Like, quite frankly, like, I am a seasoned old man. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
EZRA MICHEL
But I look like a twink still, so that’s my superpower [Mike and Kyle chuckle] is that I actually have like quite a- quite a- I don’t know. I have a lot of history. I know a lot about the community and what it’s been like for the past nine years. It’s changed so much, so- But being on T, you know, it’s just been life-saving for me. When I started T I was in heavy drug addiction and alcoholism, like in active use. I was 18 and I was really close to killing myself, and even in the haze of addiction, and all of it, and not knowing anything about the medical system, or insurance, or anything like that, and living all by myself, I still managed to make my way over to a free clinic in San Francisco and start hormones. And that, I think, really saved my life. Um, and eventually, like, gave me the clarity and the comfort to get sober. So, I think it really did save my life.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I appreciate you like talking about that and sharing all of that. And it sounds like a lot, and I’m curious. Like, I hear that phrase, like “It’s life-saving,” and I’m curious to know, like, can you like maybe tell me a little bit more about that phrase? Like, what- What does it do or give you? Or, in what ways is it life-saving?
EZRA MICHEL
That’s a really good question. Uh, [chuckles] well, for me, I grew up like- Like, I was a really “troubled teen”, quote unquote. Like I didn’t go to school, I dropped out a bunch, I was really- I was just like rebellious in a lot of ways and it’s- I think that, for me, my discomfort gave me the sense of, like, “It doesn’t really matter what I do to myself because it’s not my body.”
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I didn’t know how to identify with my body. So, like, when you look at your body you’re like “Oh, this is my body. Like, whatever,” not even a question. But for me it was like these parts literally felt like they weren’t… mine. Um, and so I didn’t care what happened to them. So it wasn’t this, like, natural, like “Oh, I just- Like, I need to protect myself.” It was like “I don’t give a fuck about what happens to me,” so I tossed myself into a lot of dangerous situations. I- I just was always putting my life on the line because I needed like an adrenaline rush in order to feel alive, and in order to feel like I existed. I needed to go to extremes all the time. So, it was like- That’s how the alcoholism and stuff just really like skyrocketed at such a young age, because I was just like “Oh, at least I can feel something and not feel the discomfort of being in my skin…” you know, “…while I’m high,” or whatever. So, in a lot of ways, it’s like- it’s life-saving because it’s like… it allowed me to recognize myself in the mirror and be able to recognize my body as mine so that I could want to keep it alive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
You know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
That’s the best way to explain it, I think.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that- When we when we talk about gender dysphoria, is that what you’re describing? Is that- Is that the experience? What I guess I’m asking is, like, what you’re talking about is very existential to me. It’s like, you know, your lived experience versus the truth. And, uh- But sometimes I hear gender dysphoria as being something that sounds more acute, right? Like, it’s sensations in your body or like a physical discomfort. Is that true? I- Can you say more about gender dysphoria for me?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. Yeah! I think- Well, I mean, obviously, like, everybody’s description of it is gonna be different because they have their own, you know, perspective on their own experience, right? But for me it’s a lot- like, it was very emotional. It was very, like, existential like you said. Like, it was like “This isn’t mine! Like, what- What is mine? What is a body? What is a mind?” Like, what makes something feel like mine versus not?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And, like, how can I live in this reality knowing that this is my body but then, like, act like it’s not? Like, how- Like, I was having these thoughts at like age 8.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I was like trippin’ out on this shit while other kids were just like playing in the sandbox. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] I’m just, like, sitting in the grass just like trippin’ out. [Mike chuckles] Uh, so, that for me is the main aspect of dysphoria, but then also there was a discomfort. There was like a physical sensation. There was a- I kept- When I was younger, I would try to explain to my therapist “I just want to unzip my skin and walk out of it.” I just wanted- I felt, like, claustrophobic and I would, like, grab at my skin and try to like pull on it to like get ou- Like, it was like- It was like a horror movie for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Did people understand that?
EZRA MICHEL
Hah! No. [Kyle chuckles] No. And I was- I was one of those kids that wasn’t trying to hide anything. I wasn’t like sneaking around. Like, I was really out loud “Hey, I’m in pain. I need help. I’m cutting myself. Here’s my scars. Like, give me help please, please, please,” and my parents were really under the impression that it was- it was all gonna pass and that I was gonna- You know, it was a “phase” and whatever, and they loved me but they just- They were so in their own world that they couldn’t really see me. So- But I really tried. I mean, I took myself to therapy when I was in like high school. I just started going by myself.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. For me, my self-harm has often been about trying to pro- Like, one, to just like stop the feeling – stop, like, the swirling – and then also to be able to show to people. Like, to describe depression or how things feel is really difficult but to show someone a cut is much easier. I’m curious what kind of yours was for you?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I think that the cutting thing was such a cry for help. I mean, I was even aware of it when I was doing it. I was like “This will show them.” I needed to show them like a physical depiction of the pain that I was in.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Um, and even that- Like, I thought “Oh, like, and because it’s so dramatic it’ll really get them to notice.” But it was like- The language wasn’t around at that time when I was in high school. Like, we weren’t saying “transgender,” we were- I was out as a lesbian. I was, like, out at a young age. I was 15 when I came out as a lesbian. And uh, and that didn’t fix everything, you know? It allowed me to justify wearing boys clothes [Mike and Kyle chuckle] which was good, and cutting my hair short which is, like, you know. That was the reason why I said I was a lesbian, because I just wanted to… cut my hair.
KYLE GETZ
To cut your hair. That’s- [chuckles] That’s, like, creative thinking. That’s, like, creative problem solving. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
EZRA MICHEL
That’s a common thing, actually, for a lot of transmascs. A lot of their stories, it’s like “Oh, I just wanted a reason to cut my hair so I said I was a lesbian.” But, like, a lot of us, you know, after we start transitioning, realize that we are actually into men and we, you know, we like denied ourselves the ability to like really go after having crushes on men before we started feeling comfortable in our bodies and, you know, a lot of us starting hormones. And I- Like, people always say “Oh, testosterone makes people gay.” Like, have you ever heard that?
KYLE GETZ
I have not.
EZRA MICHEL
I think it- Honestly, it just gives us like the freedom to be able to see men as options, whereas before it was like I was too… like, I was too, like, in my jealousy and whatever. I couldn’t- I couldn’t let myself be attracted to men before, because I was like too uncomfortable in myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, I do want to- I do want to ask: testosterone and going on T, did that affect your libido? And, can you say- Like, I’ve heard things like psychological changes, or changes to libido, or changes to even, like, how your orgasms feel. Like, how much of that did you experience, or what was it like?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, well, I started out- Before I started T, I had a really big clit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-huh.
EZRA MICHEL
I always did, and I thought I was really like weird because of it. When I was, like- When I was like showering with my friends or whatever, when I was like at sleepovers and, like, we’d all like get naked- But not, like- Not to like be like, you know, sexy or anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
It was just, like- It was like we would just- We’d be changing. I’d like notice the other people’s, like, pussies and be like “Wow, everything’s like really tucked in.” And I’d be like- Like- [Ezra and Kyle chuckle] It wasn’t like that for me. So, when I started T everything grew a lot, and what used to be like a source of shame ended up being like a source of… like, I have like big clit energy. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
So, like, a big reason why I think I talked about it all the time is because I do feel, like, quite confident about my- the stuff that I’ve got. So, not only did it grow but it also- Yeah, my libido, I got like way hornier. And I was 18 when I started so, like, I was already horny.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
But then… Yeah. I- Like, I remember like not even being able to get through the day without jerking off like at least five times.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I was really going through it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
And it was, like, annoying actually. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like, I was like “Ugh, this again?” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] But back in the early days, like, I could cum in like 2 seconds. I was- It was like wild. And, I mean, it was like- It was awesome. And also, like, I remember like walking around, like my boxers would like chafe and, like, it would like be uncomfortable because it was like newly-sensitive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And it was like the first thing that I noticed when I started T.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You’ve talked in some of your Instagram videos about your connection and relationship to masculinity, and especially you’ve mentioned feeling, like, more feminine masculinity. I’m curious, especially thinking about T but just in general, like what your relation to masculinity is.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I- Well, I think… I think the definition- The definitions of masculinity and femininity are so, like, subjective and stupid, [Kyle chuckles] and I also think it’s like fun to play with. So, at this point in my like evolution, my life, my whatever, maturity, I really only use them as a way to play and to speak lightheartedly about myself and my mannerisms, but nothing is concrete and nothing is like- I would never use those words to, like, beat myself up anymore, and I used to a lot. So I feel like, you know, I- The way that I’ve like navigated healing masculinity and stuff within myself, and, like, toxic traits, is just by acknowledging… you know, the pressures of, you know, identifying as a man and, like, what comes with that, and trying to trying to like get honest about, you know, what that’s like. Like, it’s wild to feel insecure when I’m like shaking someone’s hand and not knowing like how firm to shake it. And, like- Like, that’s so stupid. [Kyle chuckles] Like, that’s so silly. There’s so many like things that are just fake, that’s like silly little constructs. So I feel like the way that I’ve navigated it is just by being, like, honest about how silly it all feels and not taking things so seriously. Because, I mean, when I was first starting, like, to come out and stuff I would watch videos on like how to pass as a man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, “Change your walk, change the way you talk.” Like, [in a deeper voice] “Okay, so- So, guys, they wear snapbacks. So, buy yourself a snapback. Like, you gotta wear your hat backwards. Like, don’t wear shirts that are too tight because you’ll- your tits will show, so.” Like- It was like- I remember the video. It was like two guys – there were two trans guys – and they were like wearing like baggy clothes and they were just like [in a deeper voice] “Yeah, this is how you do it, so… fucking do it.” [Mike and Kyle laugh] And I’m like- And I remember I was like taking notes, like I was like “Okay! Because this is the way you have to do it!” So, after 9 years, I’m fuckin’ tired. Like, I don’t want to pretend. The reason why I came out was so that I could feel more comfortable in myself, not so that I could put myself in another box to like figure out how to- You know, I was trying to be a girl for so long and now, like, I’m trying to be a guy? Like, I don’t want to try, you know? Like, that’s the whole point.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s interesting, I would expect – and probably still do expect – that a lot of the toxic masculine traits come from the outside world, but you’re also describing some of these traits coming from within the trans community, of “Here are these norms, here these things to do.” I’m curious, do you still- Has that changed, or do you still get-? No? Okay. [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
No!
KYLE GETZ
Do you still get that within the trans community?
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, the guys that unfollowed me because I said the word “pussy”, that’s one blatant example of toxic masculinity, misogyny within our community. And it’s like they felt completely justified in their anger towards me. Like, they f- They were like- One of the comments was like [in an indignant tone] “I thought this was a safe space for trans men and it’s clearly not, because you said the word ‘pussy’ and that is a triggering word for me.” And I was like… I mean, when did I ever say this was a safe space, first of all? Like, I- [Kyle chuckles] I didn’t say that. Like, nowhere is safe for us. Are you kidding me? Like, not even- Not anywhere on the internet. Like, especially, you know? But nowhere is safe for any- Like, nowhere is 100% safe for anybody. We all have different triggers. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and it’s your pussy, don’t you get to call it what you want to? Right? Like- [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
Exactly! That’s- You know, and a lot of folks- I will say, like, I don’t want to just paint this picture like it was just that. It was mostly people being like “Thank you so much for using that word! Thank you.” Like, I get those DMs like daily from folks saying “Thank you so much for normalizing this word. ‘Pussyboy’ has helped me with…” you know “…being comfortable in my skin. It makes me feel sexy. My partner calls me a pussyboy during sex and now I feel hot.” Like, that is the overwhelming feedback that I get from folks, so I want that to be very clear.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Go buy PUSSYBOY merch, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [all chuckle]
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, it’s all hand screen printed by me at a trans-owned screen printing shop here in L.A., so…
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Very cool.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, it’s interesting, you’re- It seems like you’re describing like a playfulness, and a levity, and a use of words in a fun way as like one of your ways that you kind of deal with some of these traits, or norms, or expectations. What- Where do you think you got that ability to be lighthearted and joke about some of these and play with some of these words?
EZRA MICHEL
You got some good questions. [Kyle chuckles] I’m really impressed. I’m really impressed.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, thanks!
EZRA MICHEL
I love that you said “levity”, that’s one of my favorite words. Uh, that’s like what I try to do, is bring levity to these topics that have felt so heavy and so, like, just, like, life or death for so long. I think that, you know, I think that it honestly- Like, my like trauma response that I, like, developed over the years has just been like to find the humor in situations, and I think that’s, you know, a common thing a lot of us do. And um, I noticed that like a lot of times with trans stuff, specifically transmasc stuff, like, everything just seems so serious, and so like solemn, and like poetic but like in a really heavy way. And it’s just like, so, like, augh. And I love sad shit. I’m like so pro-sad shit. [Mike chuckles] Like, I listen to sad music, I write sad songs, I love it. And I think that it’s important to show multiple sides of the story. And if I can bring some humor to something that has felt super hard to deal with, then I will, you know? And that has been, like, the way that I’ve healed the most, is by like being able to laugh and not take myself so seriously either. Like, I think celebrity culture, and like influencer culture, and social media, like there’s this, like, this really intense pressure to seem like- almost like apathetic and like chill. You know, like just like unfazed? Like “Oh, like, I didn’t know this was recording.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like “I post, like, a blurry photo because I don’t give a fuck.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like… you know? And uh, I just think that’s honestly kind of lame. I like caring about stuff, and I think it’s cool to, you know, to show that and not take myself so seriously; not be so contrived.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Something else you’ve mentioned in one of your videos is your journey with, like, religion and spirituality. And it did kind of surprise me that, like, the fact that you described like kind of coming back to it. So I’m curious if you can talk a little bit about that journey.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. I was raised like really spiritual. My mom’s a minister, I went to church camp, but it was like- it wasn’t like typical Christian church camp. It was like, you know, “God is love and we are love, so we all have God within us and running in and through us and we’re made up of a body, mind, and spirit,” and, like, it was very, um… you know, woo-woo. [Kyle chuckles] Manifesting, law of attraction, like all of that stuff was just, like, embedded in my upbringing. And meditation and whatever. So, that stuff really like held a lot of weight for me, especially as a teenager going through, like, what I mentioned earlier and then coupled with having to go to church camp while I’m dealing with, like, all this other shit. It, like- It was like a- It just made everything really confusing, I think, for the most part. I wasn’t really able to, like, comprehend spirituality at the time. I was just sort of like going through the motions trying to make my mom happy. And then, when I got sober, I realized that all the tools that I had been brought up with would come in handy for me, because in 12-step they say, like, you need to find a higher power. And a lot of folks come in with spiritual trauma – religious trauma – that that actually stopped them from wanting to progress in 12-step, because they’re like “Oh, ‘God of my understanding’? Well, the god of my understanding was like a really punishing god that sucks.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And for me it was like “Oh, ‘God is love’? I could do that.” So it was actually a lot easier for me to, like, welcome that aspect of the program and then it worked for me and I, like, really got more comfortable with my spirituality. But then, I started dating somebody who was like a really strict atheist and we had a lot of conversations about spirituality, and atheism, and all this stuff. And, over time, I just- I, like, had this epiphany where I was just like “What if it all is just… stupid? And what if, like- What if there is nothing but what I can see in front of me?” And I, like, had this amazing awakening where I was just like “Fuck it, God is dead,” like “I’m just gonna focus on what I can see and touch, and that’s it,” and that was really important for me but then, over time, I started to soften again to the idea of, like, you know, at least, like, being more in the agnostic realm of just like “I don’t fuckin’ know!” Like, it’s kind of arrogant to think that I know. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
You know? So I think- I prefer humility over everything, so I’m like… What’s the most humble approach to spirituality? Okay, it’s probably that I just can say “I don’t know.” So might as well do what feels the best, you know?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And uh, that’s kind of like what helps me move through the world is, like, okay, checking in with myself, like, what feels good. And that’s what I- That’s my spirituality, is just, like, tuning into myself.
KYLE GETZ
What else has been feeling good for you lately? What feels good for you these days?
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, I live in the most beautiful home right now, and it’s new. We- Me and my partner just moved into this place in late December., so it still feels- it feels new. But, like, we’re in Laurel Canyon, so I like have this view of the city. I’m like looking at it right now and uh, and it’s where Joni Mitchell lived when she was writing her music and I feel like- I just feel so connected, I feel inspired, I have a barbershop in the backyard that I can take clients and, you know, create this really amazing space. I love doing hair, I love- Like, I love the feeling of connecting with people and helping them feel like themselves. And, you know, it’s- I don’t know, I just- I think I’ve created a life where I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to do. And that’s just been based on, like, gravitating towards what feels good. And um, this feels good. I love talking to you guys! [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Aw! Thanks. It’s very nice to hear all of these, like, experiences and I really appreciate you sharing everything. What else do you got, Mike?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to ask about the whole “T4T” thing, which I also see on dating apps a lot, and what’s your dating experience been? Have you dated cis people, have you dated trans people, all of the above? Can you compare and contrast what those experiences are like?
EZRA MICHEL
[chuckles] Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’m a ho, I’ve been around. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I’m like a romance-ho, though. Like, I love- Like, I love falling in love. So I’ve fallen in love a lot in my life, and uh, I’ve dated cis people. The last cis person I dated was a hot mom I grew up, like, thinking was really hot and then, like, later on she like came to visit L.A. and was like “Do you wanna get dinner?” and I was like “Yeah! Like, I’m fuckin’ 26 now,” and then we, like, ended up dating. So that was exciting. And she was great. She was, like, really queer, and, like, affirming, and she liked effeminate guys so that felt really good because I was, like- I was with this, like, older woman who was, like, really into like effeminate guys. So it was fun. Like, there were certain things that were challenging because, like, you can never like know- You know, even if you’re tra- like, in a T4T relationship, you’re never going to know exactly each other’s experience. But I will say that, like, being with a trans person- I’m with a transfem person now, and we have been dating for 10 months now, and the experience of, like, just knowing, like… That- It’s- It’s just like one layer of comfortability that you just can’t get to with a cis person. It’s just, like, this- Like, even though the cis woman that I was dating was like incredible and exceptional in so many ways, there was still this, like, “You’re never gonna really know me,” kind of feeling. And with my current partner, it’s like I can relax more than I’ve ever been able to relax with a partner before. And I think there’s a lot of factors that go into that, I don’t think it’s just ‘cause they’re trans. I think they’re also my soulmate, but, you know, the trans thing really helps a lot. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure, yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And have y’all- Remind me, have y’all posted videos of giving each other, like, T and E? Have y’all posted- Have I-
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Haven’t I seen videos like that? Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
Just one. Just one, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
One. One! Okay. Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was a cute one. We did that. Um, people were super sweet about the, you know, whatever. They commented nice things and then a lot of people were like “Wait, what are you doing? Are you giving each other your own hormones? Like, what?” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like, it was- Yeah. The internet is so funny. I just- I just came out with a new shirt that says “nuance is hot” [Mike chuckles] because I was just thinking about how, like, the internet just does not leave any room for nuance at all and, like, everyone just jumps to such black and white conclusions. And it’s just so- Like, if you scroll on comment sections it is, like- it’s just amazing to watch humanity interact with each other.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
EZRA MICHEL
It’s astounding.
MIKE JOHNSON
And depressing as fuck sometimes too. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Completely, completely. I mean, I follow like a lot of, like, Christian mom meme pages on Facebook- [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
-just to read the comments. It’s incredible. It’s, like- It’s better than anything. It’s better than any reality show.
KYLE GETZ
I have lately been addicted to, like, podcasts that have been going on for so long that the hosts don’t give a shit anymore and the show’s mediocre but people still listen, and I go onto Reddit and I read all the people commenting on all the new episodes, and that is my reality TV. That is my real housewives. [chuckles] That is my, like, fill of drama. And I’m, like, a little bit embarrassed but also still I’m so excited to do it every single week. I’m like “What’s-”
EZRA MICHEL
That’s so funny.
KYLE GETZ
I- Yeah, it’s a weird life.
EZRA MICHEL
I get that. I also, like, go on “mom hacks” on TikTok or Instagram – like, “momhacks” – and then read those comments because it’s like… like “Put your baby in a blowup kiddie pool in the living room and put toys and blankets and it’ll, like, it’ll be so fun.” And then like a few comments are like “Oh my god, this is a genius idea!” and then the next like 2000 comments are just like [in a harsh voice] “Your baby’s gonna die!!!” [all laugh] and It’s so funny. Ugh, I love it. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, Ezra Michel, before we go to a break I want to ask you real quick: we have a lot of listeners who are younger and just getting started and we know that a lot of them are trans, and do you have any advice to share with that audience who’s just getting started on this journey for themselves?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I think that my advice is to remember that the thing inside you that told you that you were queer, or trans, or whatever, is the thing that’s going to guide you through all of it. So remember to listen to that primarily, before any other any other external voice, or advice, or anything. Like, you have- You have the compass inside you. If I could do it – and I was like in my, you know, druggie haze – then you could do it too. [chuckles] Like, it’s always there and it’s always available to you if you just- If you get quiet and listen it’ll tell you what to do next, you know? So, you have the answers within you, child. [all chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
I love that.
KYLE GETZ
That’s wonderful, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like, I don’t know, Yoda or something. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
EZRA MICHEL
Probably. If I’ve ever- I mean, yeah, that’s the little one, right? [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I’m him, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, well- Then… you want to take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
We are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest but, first, Ezra Michel, where can people find out more about you, what you’re up to, where they can buy your Pussyboy shirts? Like, tell us all the things!
EZRA MICHEL
So, you can follow me on Instagram, “ezramichelmusic”, and then you can follow my PUSSYBOY APPAREL account, that’s “p_ssyboyapparel” with a underscore for the u because “pussy”… they’re not- I couldn’t- I couldn’t put “pussy” as my handle, unfortunately. And then “welcomehomehair” for my barber shop account. And uh- And that’s “ezramichelmusic” on TikTok as well. And um, yeah, I think that’s- And then pussyboyapparel.com is where you can buy my merch but it’s also linked to my Instagram, so you can go to my IG shop if that’s easier for you.
KYLE GETZ
Follow Ezra. Highly recommend. Great music, great content, great shit-
EZRA MICHEL
Aww.
KYLE GETZ
-so absolutely go follow Ezra.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
EZRA MICHEL
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I appreciate that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We are on all the socials, except TikTok, @gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply. By the way, we’ve gotten some great Gayests & Straightests in voicemail that we will play in future episodes. Please keep sending those in, we love them.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Two reminders.
MIKE JOHNSON
Two reminders. Patreon happy hour, Wednesday May the 3rd at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Everyone at any level of Patreon can join us for that Zoom call and we’re posting the Zoom link in the Patreon app, so look there.
KYLE GETZ
And tickets for our six-city tour are available May 1st. Gayishpodcast.com/live to look for those tickets.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, please buy tickets and please come so we don’t cry.
KYLE GETZ
Please come.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Boy, have I said that line before.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Umm, okay, [chuckles] Gayest &- [laughs] Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Time for Gayest & Straightest. You want me to go first?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, go for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great! Uh, so the straightest thing about me this week was: last night, when I- you and I rode home from that birthday party, I was driving the Jeep and another friend joined us who was climbing into the Jeep and goes “Oh, do you have a dog?”
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] I haven’t had a dog in- When was the “Dogs” episode?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, boy.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like 4 or 5 years now. I just am that disgusting that there’s still dog hair [laughs] in my Jeep years later.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We need to just take a quick vacuum to- Or- You know? Or not. Or live your life.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, I do-
KYLE GETZ
You do.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- Yeah. Uh, and then the gayest thing about me this week: I think that I’ve talked about the hot trainer, Dakota, at the gym before. He usually is wearing like really baggy clothes. Like, he’s still hot despite like wearing these like shapeless, formless clothing. Whew, Dakota was in a tank top yesterda- or, a couple of days ago, and I totally got called out for like not paying attention because I was-
KYLE GETZ
By Dakota!?
MIKE JOHNSON
Not by Dakota-
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-but by John, who was the trainer that I was assigned that day.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, he’s like [clapping at each word] “Are you even paying attention?” [Kyle laughs] And I was like “Oh, no, I’m sorry,” and then I turned bright red because, like, I was clearly- I didn’t know that hot Dakota has, like… Everything that I thought about his body was absolutely true, and had a full, like, tattoo sleeve and, like…
KYLE GETZ
Ooo. Dakota.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was drooling. It was bad. [Kyle chuckles] Um, how about you, Kyle? Go!
KYLE GETZ
Uh, my gayest is: I was just at my appointment for my PrEP, every three months get STI and HIV testing, and when we were scheduling my next follow up one I was like “Can we do that for the week after Pride?” [Mike and Kyle laugh] Just- I don’t know, maybe I might want some STI and HIV screening the week after Pride. Just- And she was super chill. The PrEP nurse was like “Absolutely, let’s do it then.” The other thing is, I feel like I’m pretty medically competent on a lot of these topics but I did not know about- So, I learned about Doxy-PEP, which, I will now tell everyone about Doxy-PEP. Have you heard of- Do you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Doxycycline?
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, it’s post-exposure for potential exposure to chlamydia or gonorrhea. There is a pill that you can have on hand and take if you are exposed to either those or worried that you are. It’s one pill that you can take afterwards. So I was like “Oh, I’m generally slutty. Like, that would be nice,” so I’m gonna talk to my doctor about maybe getting Doxy-PEP.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh!
KYLE GETZ
So- But yeah, had no idea that that was even a thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just gonna make the joke that at Pride they should hand out Z-Paks to everybody. Apparently, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, they are! [Mike laughs] Well, not for free, because obviously, but you know. [chuckles] Yeah. Um, Ezra, what about you? What is your Gayest & Straightest?
EZRA MICHEL
Wait, did you do straightest? That was my straightest, is not knowing, uh, about the medication for chlamydia. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
EZRA MICHEL
Oh, okay, okay, okay. That’s pretty straight. [Kyle and Ezra chuckle] Uh, gayest was: me and my partner were gonna have sex and then I noticed that I had a lot of butt hair [Mike laughs] and I went to the shower and I shaved my butt hair. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] And they didn’t know that I did that but I, like, secretly ran to the shower and did that. [Kyle chuckles] Um, that’s pretty gay, I think.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yes.
EZRA MICHEL
Um, and then straightest: I started lifting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Ooh.
EZRA MICHEL
If you can see, my muscles are really muscling right now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
EZRA MICHEL
So, I’m like a generally pretty small guy and uh, I’m like starting to like learn how to actually eat food, and bulk, and lift things. So, that’s pretty str- I feel very straight whe- And now my entire For You page is just a bunch of bodybuilding people because it’s like… I think I, like- They’re hot.
MIKE JOHNSON
You are on the road to gym bro now.
EZRA MICHEL
I know! I know. [Mike chuckles] Like, I mean- Yeah. I’m excited. We’ll see. I want to be able to, like, lift my partner up like really easily, so that’s the goal.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, nice. We’ll follow-
EZRA MICHEL
That’s pretty straight!
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
EZRA MICHEL
That’s very straight.
KYLE GETZ
That’s very straight, perhaps the straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Follow Ezra’s TikTok and Instagram for more. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. Yeah, there’s plenty of that… slutty shit.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Plenty of that slutty shit. You know our audience already.
EZRA MICHEL
I do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, Ezra Michel, thank you so, so, so much for being here today. What a wonderful conversation.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been incredible. You guys are great.
KYLE GETZ
We really appreciate it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
That is it! Oh, you’re looking at me because I’m supposed to say things now.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re supposed to thank people that gives us money.
KYLE GETZ
Um, that’s- Yes. [Mike laughs] Um, uh, I’m ready and prepared. I would like to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, [Kyle gasps for air] DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. One of these days I will get it in one breath.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that is it. This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. Bye.
MIKE JOHNSON
See you next week. “Bi”, that’s a cute word, I hear. [all chuckle]
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, your questions were, like, not invasive at all.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! We should have- [Mike and Kyle chuckle] We should have tried harder then, or something.
EZRA MICHEL
I know, I was like “Wow, this is, uh- This is good, it was easy.”
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]
Gayish: 329 420
Bro. It’s 4/20. We’re high. You can find out what this is about by listening, probably. Have fun. Party on.
In this episode: News- 1:35 || Main Topic (4/20)- 13:18 || Gayest & Straightest- 55:32
Donate to the Last Prisoner Project by visiting https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/donate. It’s a non-profit working to free the tens of thousands of individuals still unjustly imprisoned for cannabis.
See our 6th anniversary live show tour dates, venues and tickets at www.gayishpodcast.com/live.
On the weekly bonus Patreon segment, we ask each other questions from the internet you should ask your friends while high Get bonus audio, video, and other great benefits by joining our Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that’s created by humans, for humans.
MIKE JOHNSON
But only the gay ones.
KYLE GETZ
Only gay humans. [Mike laughs] Sorry, straights, if you’re listening, you get outta here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Get out. Go on, get!
MIKE JOHNSON
What’s up, you cool straight person? [Kyle chuckles] Um, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, today…
KYLE GETZ
Today, what are we talking about, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] 420!
KYLE GETZ
420!
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy 4/20!
KYLE GETZ
Happy 4/20!
MIKE JOHNSON
…Or 4/19, if you’re not cool and in Patreon. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, [chuckles] that’s true. Some people are getting this episode on 4/19, which, don’t get high yet. Hang on to it for a day. Um, yeah, fortuitously, this episode comes out on 4/20 and we decided to celebrate that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. How…?
KYLE GETZ
Howm?
MIKE JOHNSON
…You’re gonna find out.
KYLE GETZ
We… [Mike laughs] took edibles, I think we should just go ahead and say.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, so, yeah, starting to- We’ll see how this goes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. We were recording our Patreon episode about prison and had to get high to get through it.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or at least start, like, the getting high process.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes, so we’re a little bit into our edible, where… you know… Um, but first?
MIKE JOHNSON
But first, here’s the news.
KYLE GETZ
This is gonna go great.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is gonna go great, I can tell.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the first: San Diego County has settled with a transgender woman who was beaten by a fellow inmate after being placed in a cell with three men at a men’s prison in 2020.
KYLE GETZ
Ugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, Kristina Frost was put in jail and, despite the fact that she uses she/her pronouns and has “Female” on her driver’s license-
KYLE GETZ
Mm. So, legally, she is female.
MIKE JOHNSON
-she was put into a cell with men in it, and they- they beat her up. So, without- While admitting no guilt or liability in the case, San Diego County agreed [Kyle scoffs] to pay $275,000 for the incident that took place on November 20th, 2020, at the Central Jail in downtown San Diego. Frost said she had been arrested for a book and release crime, where suspects are immediately released on the condition that they appear at a later time to be officially booked, fingerprinted, and photographed. Instead, she was housed with three male suspects in the men’s facility, in violation of county policy, even though she presented as female at the time of her arrest and her driver’s license listened to her gender as female. “Sadly — and foreseeably — one of the men in the cell viciously attacked Ms. Frost,” The lawsuit said. “His closed-fist punches to Ms. Frost’s face resulted in serious bodily injuries, including a broken jaw, so far requiring two surgeries to repair,” and-
KYLE GETZ
Wow. That’s horrible.
MIKE JOHNSON
The sheriff’s department, of course, said that she was making part of it up. Uh, quote-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
-“The person who allegedly assaulted Miss Frost stated he was assaulted by Miss Frost first and stated that he acted in self-defense,”-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, fuck that. That’s- That sounds like a trans panic defense.
MIKE JOHNSON
-spokesperson Lt. Amber Baggs said at the time. “Additionally, Miss Frost declined to press charges.”
KYLE GETZ
That’s not an admission of guilt.
MIKE JOHNSON
She claims she was denied medical treatment when deputies further detained her for 12 hours before taking her to a hospital. She also alleged that she was repeatedly misgendered by deputies.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh- Yeah, it’s interesting. Like, this is the kind of shit that happens all of the time, and shit that, like, Republicans apparently fuckin’ think that we should be doing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and, uh, it’s- I don’t know. Like, I feel awful for her that that situation happened, obviously, and it’s nice for there to be some kind of repercussions for-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-like, being dickbag fuckface assholes about it.
KYLE GETZ
Seems like not enough, but…
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, also…
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
I was gonna say something else…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, you’re high, it’s great.
KYLE GETZ
No I’m not. [chuckles] [Mike laughs] I’m regular. It sucks that the idea- Like, we’ve been making progress by allowing legal gender changes, and it also sucks that that didn’t protect her in this case. That should be- That’s part of the point of that, is to be- And maybe, hopefully, why she won her case. Like, that- Part of the point is to be like “No, look. Like, legally, I am a female. What do you want from me? Like, you-”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
“You have to put me in the female side.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
That sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, I agree. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
[sighs] If you want to learn more about prison, check out our Patreon [chuckles] $5+/month level and you can hear our bonus episode about prison.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s magical.
KYLE GETZ
This was heavy.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay, news the second. So, Emmy award-winning Pose star Billy Porter is going to be playing renowned writer and activist James Baldwin in an upcoming feature. He also helped write the script with Dan McCabe. But James Baldwin, outspoken gay black writer born in Harlem in 1924, and wrote a lot about black identity, sexuality, race issues, he wrote books called “Go Tell It on the Mountain”, “Notes of a Native Son”, “Another Country”, and “The Fire Next Time”. But uh, yeah, so, Billy Porter, who- When you see their pictures side by side, like… I see it. This is a good casting, I think.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, an actual queer person playing a historical queer, uh, you know, person. So-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Billy Porter, like, he’s one of the people that can make that happen, because of how big his name is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. And, uh- And- Who knows? Maybe, you know, maybe this- Maybe this’ll get him his Oscar.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo…
MIKE JOHNSON
He’s won an Emmy, a Tony, and Grammy [Kyle gasps] so he only needs the Oscar to EGOT.
KYLE GETZ
No way! Damn! Alright, we’ll be watching that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. I- You know, if Billy Porter EGOTs… can we just- can we do a whole episode about that?
KYLE GETZ
Yes! We could do a Billy Porter episode. That would be cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay. Alright. Quote, “As a Black queer man on this planet with relative consciousness I find myself, like James Baldwin said, ‘in a rage all the time.’ I am because James was. I stand on James Baldwin’s shoulders, and I intend to expand his legacy for generations to come,” Billy Porter said in a statement.
KYLE GETZ
Aw. That’s beautiful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. News the last?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, so, Zillah Washington…
KYLE GETZ
What?! This is- Hold on. [Mike laughs] I’ve been there.
MIKE JOHNSON
The principal of Zillah Middle School has sent out an apology email to parents over a, quote, “modernized” version of Romeo and Juliet that was performed at an eighth grade field trip on Thursday. This made local news. It made Yakima news, KIMA-TV news covered it.
KYLE GETZ
Are you telling- gonna tell people?
MIKE JOHNSON
Tell people what?
KYLE GETZ
That you’re from there?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m from there. I’m from- Like, I-
KYLE GETZ
That’s- That was- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I went to Zillah Middle School, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Right, right, right. [Mike laughs] You gotta tell people!
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean- The play was performed by a traveling company from the Seattle Shakespeare Company at Zillah Nazarene Church, also known as “The Church of Godzilla”, I believe.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm, I’ve driven past that with you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Uh, and the field trip flyer stated that, quote, “The group will present a slightly modernized version of the play,” and then…
KYLE GETZ
Gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, apparently people- Some of the kids told some of the parents some of the things and they all freaked out, wrote-in to the news, wrote-in to the principal. The principal, um- Uh- God. They give his last name: Torres. I wonder if I know that kid. Hold on.
KYLE GETZ
I’m sorry, are you Facebooking the principal?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah, you gotta do your conflict of interest disclosures.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, Mike Torres. I know him but he’s not who I was thinking of. Mike Torres, the principal, sent out an email and said, basically, quote, “There were some scenes and back-drop art depictions that may have caused the students to feel uncomfortable,” the play was “not done in a manner that we anticipated,” and he apologized for any students that were negatively impacted. Here’s the thing: I’ve dug and dug and dug to try to figure out what was so fucking egregious that it required the news to get involved and for the principal to have to send out a letter. The two things that I had found were: number one, apparently part of the modern, like, ghetto citified like backdrop it says “trans rights”. Like, it’s a big piece of graffiti art and then, like, in one place it says “trans rights”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, in the bottom corner where, [Mike chuckles] like, you really have to squint.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, apparently, the actor that was playing Romeo was a gender-nonconforming and appeared to be either nonbinary or perhaps trans. The reports are conflicting, possibly because nobody that’s from there knows how to talk about this stuff.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but yeah. So, the actor that played Romeo was assigned female at birth and is gender-nonconforming in some way.
KYLE GETZ
Do they know, like, Shakespeare at all? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
No, they don’t! That’s the thing, right?
KYLE GETZ
[scoffs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, they just absolutely don’t understand it. Lots of people on Facebook were saying lots of really hilarious things about the whole thing, like “Do you even know Shakespeare? All of the actors would have been men back in the day.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, what the fuck is the problem?
KYLE GETZ
You would have freaked out about that! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh, one of- One of them said, quote, “God forbid the eighth graders see something regarding trans rights in the play about *checks notes* teenagers committing suicide”. [both laugh] Right?
KYLE GETZ
That’s so true.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s absolutely true. Just absolute insanity. Much ado about nothing. [Kyle chuckles] But it was- It’s interesting. Being from there, I’m not surprised.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, the number of, like, parental rights things that people are hiding their bigotry behind.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like “I just- I should have been informed before knowing whether to send my kid to go be indoctrinated by transgenderism.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s ‘cause you- You hate- It’s not because you wanted to be informed, it’s because you hate trans people.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Like, if- You didn’t bitch about the fact that we took your eighth grader to a fuckin’ church. That’s indoctrinization- indoctrination, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, and parents have a right to opt their kid out of that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Um, anyway, it’s just- It really- It really pisses me off that it’s just that you think trans people are icky. And they did not add trans content to the play. The play was done exactly as written. The changes were only casting and only what was in the backdrop, and costuming.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And uh, there was nothing overtly trans about it. Not pushing a trans agenda, just merely the existence of a trans person on that stage and “trans rights” written on the backdrop in graffiti was enough to, like, people lose their goddamn minds. What the fuck is wrong with this country, Kyle? Also, you’d think that the church would kick them out if it was like…
KYLE GETZ
Mm. Oh, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
What I mean is… it was subtle enough that the church didn’t freak out. I’m sure that if, when they got there, they found out that it was like… Romeo, like, gets bottom surgery or something…
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, that would- You know, they would freak out and say “No, you can’t do your fuckin’ gay-ass play here.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But they didn’t, because it wasn’t egregious at all.
KYLE GETZ
Wasn’t even overt? Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, anyway… fuck you, Zillah!
KYLE GETZ
[sighs] The place you grew- I mean, I- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, reading through the people that were on the side of-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god.
MIKE JOHNSON
-trans rights.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, there’s way more of them than I ever thought possible. I think that, like, that town has changed some and that was very heartwarming to read, to read through some of the things. Yeah. And also, like, one of the, like, people on Facebook that was most angry is a guy who was an upperclassman when I was- when I was- when I was there.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
He’s hoooot.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Oh no.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, it’s the worst.
KYLE GETZ
Still that, like, trope of the bully that’s hot?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Who claims to have a gay son, which, like, so therefore he gets to say whatever bigoted shit about trans people that he wants to?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, yeah. I was like “I bet that appeared at the beginning of a sentence where he said something homophobic or transphobic.”
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news! Um, people that we would… celebrate in a church [chuckles] are the following Patreon members: David Clement…
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Or “Clement”, if it rhymes with “cement”. Uh… Keith Whisenhunt.
MIKE JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
Um… hut. [chuckles] What? Hut. Um, and… squagle.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Is there a question mark in there or is that just-
KYLE GETZ
Nope, [in a questioning tone] that’s my inflection! [Mike laughs] And it’s a lowercase s if that matters. squagle, [said like “SKWAUH-gull”] squagle, [like “SKWAA-gull”] squagle, [like “SKWAY-gull”] squagle, [“SKWAUH-gull” again] squawkle… Joan of Arc.
MIKE JOHNSON
Keep going. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, if you want a bonus episode segments, content, if you want to have me try to say your name, join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast. We also have our Patreon happy hour coming up soon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah we do.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, that is May the 3rd at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. So, if you- Anyone, at any level, gets to join that. So, either if you’re already a member get to hang out with us, or join for just two bucks and you get to join in on the happy hours. They’re a lot of fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. The link gets posted to the Patreon app, so if you were wondering, like, how you get access: that’s how.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, um- Yeah, use the Patreon app, people. Fill in your address so I can send you a Christmas card.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Patreon, do it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it. You wanna talk about 420?
KYLE GETZ
[sighing] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I feel like we’ve been talking for forever. [laughs] So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It’s been 17 minutes and 57 seconds, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
This feels like the l- Okay, I’m ready.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are ya high?
KYLE GETZ
Nnn…
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Nooooooo…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no. Okay, well, [clears throat] um, you know what?
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re right it does feel like we’ve been talking forever, because the planning about who was gonna say what and in what order is so far long ago I’ve forgotten all of it.
KYLE GETZ
You start!
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna start.
KYLE GETZ
Yes! [chuckles] I do remember that part.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, well, I’m going to start… like, exactly like we planned…
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Poof! No plans.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] …with the history of 420!
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, back in the Weed episode, which, that was season one, um, uh, we got similarly high- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and I talked more about, like, the history of marijuana because that episode was called “Weed” but I don’t believe I covered 420. Like, why is 420 marijuana time, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, why is 420? I actually started to, like, accidentally run into descriptions of why, and I had to keep avoiding it because I knew you were gonna do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
I love how predictable I am.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] I mean… As am I. But I don’t know why. Something about teenagers? I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, some of the ideas that are not true but persist as like urban legend are that 420 was the police officer code for marijuana smoking in progress.
KYLE GETZ!
Mmm. Hm!
MIKE JOHNSON
Not true, in any jurisdiction.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
At least, not at the time that 420 got this meaning.
KYLE GETZ
I wonder if that has then- Like, it’s the other way around. I wonder if that has become a code anywhere.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it might be. I didn’t look it up. Feel free to follow up, Kyle, if you want to.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] No, I was just- I was just talking. Just a general wonderment.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, on your own time. I don’t want to hear it.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Uh, number two: some people say that there’s a connection to April 20th being Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler’s birthday.
KYLE GETZ
What?!
MIKE JOHNSON
It- No.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s- That is not why. Why? What do you think? Do you have any theories of your own?
KYLE GETZ
[sighs] No. I mean, I kind of ran into general-
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that it’s a good time to smoke. Like, right after school.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, that’s true. Um, the timing of it is basically- It’s because of teenagers and because of high schoolers, and I’m gonna talk about that but uh, the reasons for meeting at that time, it turns out, aren’t super complicated. School ends around 3 o’clock, then come sports practice, and it would be about 4:20 that you could be done with practice, and changed, and ready to get high.
KYLE GETZ
I forgot about, like, after school we had band practice and we had football practice. God, I forgot about that being a thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Ah, childhood.
MIKE JOHNSON
I love it when shit like this happens, especially something that’s such a cultural touchstone, right? Like, 420 is fuckin’ famous.
KYLE GETZ
Everyone knows that, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Every-
KYLE GETZ
A-list! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
At least in the English speaking world, it is an A-list phrase. [Kyle laughs] But, normally-
KYLE GETZ
Finally, we can agree!
MIKE JOHNSON
Normally, those things – because internet, because printing or whatever – we don’t actually know like where it started or why.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is five high school students in 1971 made this shit happen.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. Can you imagine being, like, the creator of 420. That would be, like, very cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, Steve Capper, Dave Reddix, Jeffrey Noel, Larry Schwartz, and Mark Gravich absolutely can! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Thank you to our following Patreon members.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, they know because they did it.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, they would get together at 4:20 p.m. to smoke marijuana by a statue of chemist Louis Pasteur at San Rafael High School in Marin County, California. So, it was actually- Initially, they would say “4:20 Louis” and that was the time, 4:20, and the place, at the Louis Pasteur statue.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The “Louis” part got dropped over time, but, um, yeah. So, they would say “4:20 Louis” and that was the, like, “Who’s down- Who wants to have that be a thing that we do today?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And people would, like, nod their head and they would do it. They called themselves the “Waldos”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I kept seeing “Waldo” show up and that’s when I had to stop reading about…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Don’t know why.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe- Maybe this-
KYLE GETZ
Because they’re like hiding in plain sight?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] I don’t think “Where’s Waldo?” was the thing in 1971.
KYLE GETZ
It wasn’t?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Derek!
MIKE JOHNSON
When was- When was “Where’s Waldo?”?
KYLE GETZ
When did “Where’s Waldo?” start? [chuckles] Urgent.
MIKE JOHNSON
Now, none of those people are named Waldo, but High Times Magazine-
KYLE GETZ
…Started in 1987.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Alright.
MIKE JOHNSON
High Times magazine incorrectly reported that Steve Waldo formed the Waldos, which, that would be kind of a dick move to like gather a bunch of friends and being like “We’re called the ‘Johnsons’ now, enjoy,” right?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I mean, that’s like presidential campaigns.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that’s true. Is that true?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, it’s like the Trump campaign. That’s a ton of people…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, okay.
KYLE GETZ
…that are all centered around one person’s name.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, they started doing this in high school and “4:20 Louis” was how they would say “We’re gonna go get high after school” blah, blah, blah. And Dave Reddix, who was one of the Waldos, had a brother who was working for the Grateful Dead and he got his brother a job as a roadie for bassist Phil Lesh, and he brought with him this “4:20 Louis” thing. The Grateful Dead picked up, and so then- The Grateful Dead is sort of- The Grateful Dead and High Times magazine are how it got distributed then to the world and became this cultural phenomenon that it is. It went far enough that, on- By the time 1990 rolls around, Deadheads in Oakland had flyers inviting people to smoke 420 on 4/20 at 4:20 [Kyle chuckles] and, uh, that made sense. And then that’s when High Times magazine picked it up. Steve Bloom, who was a reporter for them, published the flyer and continued to reference the number. And then, ultimately, that’s how it became this thing. The Waldos are all still alive, they all still live in Northern California in Marin County or Sonoma County, they’re still good friends. There’s a whole documentary that Time did. And yeah, he said, quote, “We got tired of the Friday-night football scene with all of the jocks. We were the guys sitting under the stands smoking a doobie, wondering what we were doing there.” [Kyle chuckles] And then they had, like, adventures.
KYLE GETZ
That’s kind of weird how, like- I mean, it’s getting more- It’s getting less and less counterculture, but it still is counterculture 30 years later, it’s still something we’re fighting about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. 50 years later, man.
KYLE GETZ
50 years later. Fuck!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep, for sure. And people still have the most fucked up ideas about marijuana and what it does to you.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We forgot to say, at the top of the episode, “Kyle and I are high,” [Kyle chuckles] “and it’s legal for us to do that here in the state of Washington.”
KYLE GETZ
We’re a little high, so we forgot to say something. [Mike laughs] Go figure. Yes, it is legal. I purchased this from a store where I could order online-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-and then pick up in store like I was ordering a fuckin’… takeout noodles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mmm, noodles.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo, I want noodles. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
That sounds good. Um, yeah, uh-
KYLE GETZ
That’s cool you can trace back so directly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, you can trace it back direc- Now, there are- [chuckles] There’s another group of people that claims that they were the ones that invented it…
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
…who also went to San Rafael High School in Marin County, California. They were like a rival gang- Not a rival gang, they were just another- like, another lunch table.
KYLE GETZ
Another clique. Yeah, like one table over were like-
MIKE JOHNSON
That claims that they said at first and that the Waldos stole it from them.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] Drama!
MIKE JOHNSON
To which a journalist was like “What fuckin’ difference does it make? None of you are getting paid.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Like- [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Well, you just said a documentary was made about them or somethin’. I want a documentary made about me.
MIKE JOHNSON
You have one.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, I made it.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Fuck.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I want a better one. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, did I have anything more to say about them? Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Oh what?
MIKE JOHNSON
Just, this is-
KYLE GETZ
Just you’re high?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Hi.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hiiii. Uh-
KYLE GETZ
Should I go?
MIKE JOHNSON
Why did I want to talk about Hot Tub Time Machine, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Ooo! You have to be high to enjoy it?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It was made by high people?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You use it to hold your… spliff?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm. Go ahead, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s your turn.
KYLE GETZ
Um, High Times magazine showed up bunch.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Uhh, do gay people smoke weed more than- or do marijuana more than straight people?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna guess absolutely, 100%, yes.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a good guess. We’ll find out if it’s- We’ll find out that it’s true, very soon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
Survey says!
KYLE GETZ
Hold on to your- What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Hold onto your butts?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay… [quiet sound of movement] I did it. [Kyle chuckles] Um, no- Yeah, okay.
KYLE GETZ
What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Gay people- I assume gay people, if it’s like, you know, risky, or illegal, or…
KYLE GETZ
A drug?
MIKE JOHNSON
…a drug, are like supes totes more on board than straight people, who have, like, scared themselves into a boring life.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, or like don’t have to numb out so much of the pain.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Great. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Um- I mean, that’s why.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
We live, like, harder lives then numb it out with shit. Umm… So, there was an article in High Times by Benjamin M. Adams that I found that references these two studies that I’m gonna mention. So, there was a 2009 study where respondents were asked about their marijuana use, and the answers were- turned into then either they’ve never- Oh, in the past year never used it, or- have not used it or have used it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
And they also asked-
MIKE JOHNSON
Have. Did. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Have. Gay people said “have”. Oh, you. Your answer is “have”.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m a gay people, it’s fine.
KYLE GETZ
You’re a gay people. Um, you’re one of the best gay people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem. Sexual orientation was also a question. They asked them both to self-identify and state their behaviors recently, so they know a little bit of both. That’ll- That’ll come up.
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Kay.
KYLE GETZ
Um… the results is that-
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, if somebody came and they’re like “I’m straight,” then, like, I had to also hear all of the straight shit that they did last week?
KYLE GETZ
Well, they didn’t ask for like a chart. [chuckles] They didn’t ask for an enumerated list.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
They were just like asked about like “Have you been with a woman in the past 12 months? Have you been with a man?” Like, they asked about sexual behaviors.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Not just how you self-identify. Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Which I think is interesting, because heterosexual women who have had same-sex partners, as well as bisexual women and lesbians – so basically all the kinda gay, gayish women – were significantly higher- more likely to have [Mike chuckles] used marijuana than heterosexual women.
MIKE JOHNSON
They were higher! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that kinda worked.
MIKE JOHNSON
Significantly higher chance of being higher!
KYLE GETZ
Yes, exactly. For bisexual woman, they were the most likely-
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
-out of the three different various women we’re talking about. [chuckled] I wrote “They were most likely to smoke wet.” [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean…
KYLE GETZ
Which, maybe. I don’t judge. I don’t judge. Bisexual women getting high and fucking sounds hot. Um, heterosexual women next in order. Heterosexual women who had had same-sex partners were four times more likely than exclusively heterosexual women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
That seem-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Gays- Yeah, gay-
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, you can- You can- …I am high. Okay, so, the thing is, Kyle, being gay, you’re told your whole life by society, overtly or otherwise, that it’s bad, and it’s wrong, and it’s- it’s not something for you, and you just- you don’t want to be that. And then you come out and you do, and you’re like “Oh, this gay sex shit is pretty fuckin’ fantastic,” [Kyle laughs] “and I feel better about myself and my life.” So, like, you got lied to a whole bunch. Then you think about marijuana, which, at least as a kid that grew up in the 80s and had the D.A.R.E. program, you thought that, like, marijuana you’re gonna do- like, black tar heroin was next, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep. Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that it was this horrible, awful, ruin your life gateway drug, and then like the first time you get high you’re like “Oh my god, they’re fucking lying to me.” [Kyle chuckles] It just- It seems related to me…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…that gay people who are out enough to like do gay shit realize by now just, like, “Society’s full of shit. I’m gonna do some stuff, or be a braver, or, like, explore more.”
KYLE GETZ
Reevaluate the expectations of us and the norms.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So that’s- Queer people do marijuana ‘cause, you know, they’re tired of the lies that they were told by society.
KYLE GETZ
Tired of lies, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tired of ‘em.
KYLE GETZ
I absolutely bet that’s it. Apparently these were not in order, I lied. Lesbians were six times more likely than heterosexual women to use marijuana.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, it goes lowest likelihood to most likelihood. Heterosexual women, then heterosexual women with same-sex partners, then lesbians, than bisexual women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Bisexual woman, you’re on top!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
You always have been. For gay men, gay men were the only ones that had a difference versus other groups, which surprises me because I would- Bisexual men often, in these kinds of things, stand out for more difficult, like, mental health issues and higher rates of things- I don’t know. Like, they just tend to be higher on- when we talk about mental health and drugs. So yeah, it just said that gay men were the only ones that had a difference. Gay men were four times more likely than exclusively-heterosexual women- No. [chuckles] …Than exclusively heterosexual men, to have used marijuana. A different study then, just by comparison- Because that’s saying, you know, four times, six times higher. Like, those are big rates. A little bit different study, a 2017 study that asked if respondents had done any kind of marijuana during their lifetime.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mmm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
And it was just- This one was the past year, so now we’re talking about one that’s your lifetime. 49% of heterosexual respondents said they had. 64% of LGBTQ respondents had. So that’s 15 percentage points.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Which, that is a far cry from four-to-six times more likely. So my theory is: if both of these studies are true, then that means gay people, in particular, use it more regularly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s not that just more of us have done it. Some perce- You know, a decent number more of us have done it, but not hugely different, and we may be more likely to do it regularly.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think that’s true. I think you’re right.
KYLE GETZ
I think a lot of straight people have tried it and then they went back to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Bu they didn’t inhale? [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yes, exactly. Man, that MTV special… Um, but then they went back to, like, “That’s something I did in college, and now I’m back to my marri- I’m straight and married to someone, like, a woman, and I’m happy in my home…” you know, “…and I have kids, and marijuana is somethin’ I did once.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yeah, yeah. Wacky tobaccy.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. That’s the gayta.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
What do you got?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckling] …A fear that we don’t have enough content for the show now. [Kyle laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh. I feel like we’ve been recording for… 13 days in a row.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, just a half hour.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We got further to go. Well, first- Okay, so, briefly, before I go into this, I want to talk about the difference between legalization and decriminalization-
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
-because they often get, like, conflated, right? So, decriminalization just means it is illegal, but that it’s not going to lead to criminal charges. So it might be an infraction like a fine or something, or it might be, like, “Technically illegal, but I’m not gonna do anything about it,” kind of space as far as, like, policing is concerned.
KYLE GETZ
For a while in Seattle, yeah, it was like the lowest thing on the list of things they should care about. Like, if they see someone smoking weed and someone jaywalked, they would go up to the jaywalker instead, like, they- before it was legal. Now it’s just legal, so…
MIKE JOHNSON
And then, legalization is… it is legal.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t really understand that difference between those two. Thank you, Michael. Oh, I learned something from this podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Great. Um- Great. So… it’s complicated the United States because, state by state, like, the states get to decide shit but then there’s still like federal- So, it’s federally illegal. So, in the United States, nationwide, from our national government, it is illegal, but the state of Washington has legalized it under Washington state law… in really direct, defiant opposition to the national law. Anyway-
KYLE GETZ
At some point, it’s gonna have to go to the Supreme Court.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Yeah. Well, Colorado and Washington were first, and then 19 other states have followed [chuckles] so far. So-
KYLE GETZ
I think so much of it is motivated by, like, “Oh, look at that state revenue they’re getting.” I don’t- Which is fucking annoying that that would be the reason. It’s like “Oh, now once there’s- I could get money out of this, now I think it’s fine.” I don’t- I’m not- That’s just my own personal, like, thing that I just- My opinion on it.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, Republicans love money more than they care about-
KYLE GETZ
Their values? [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
-saving people from themselves. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or their values, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think money is their value, so not all- #NotAllRepublicans. I’m so sorry. Sorry, Cleveland, while we’re at it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [both chuckles] Don’t apologize for them.
KYLE GETZ
I am sorry, I care so little about you that the only reason I made fun of you was because I remembered 30 Rock.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Okay-
KYLE GETZ
Did I make up for it?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think so.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay, weed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Weed. Well, no, 420. The episode’s 420.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, right.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s important ‘cause I also wanted to talk to you about why the number 420 is badass.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay!
MIKE JOHNSON
420 is a cool number, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Is it?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Well, other than for the weed reason?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, so, here are ways in which 420 is special, the number: it’s the sum of four consecutive primes.
KYLE GETZ
1-2-3-4… Oh, oh, not 1-2-3-4. [chuckles] It could be different primes.
MIKE JOHNSON
101+103+107+109.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a weird- How do- How do people figure that shit out?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Does someone just divide a bunch of stuff by a bunch of stuff, and then anything they find they’re like “That’s a neat thing?”
MIKE JOHNSON
A bunch of math dudes got together, and probably got stoned as fuck, and they were like [in a dumb voice] “Let’s figure out the ways that 420’s cool.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] [in a slightly less dumb voice] “You know what I wanna do? Multiply consecutive prime numbers, [chuckles] bro.” [Mike laughs] Everyone’s like “You’re so high. That’s a weird thing to do.”
MIKE JOHNSON
It is the sum of the first 20 positive even numbers?
KYLE GETZ
No way!
MIKE JOHNSON
2+4+6+8+10… The first-
KYLE GETZ
That’s a fun fact we can all enjoy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. And number three: it is a zero of the Mertens function, and is sparsely totient. We’re not going to div- I don’t know what that means.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [chuckles] Some mathematician just fucking jizzed themselves. Like, someone fucking loved that shit so hard.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
They’re like “I didn’t know anyone would talk to me about the McMartins numeral factorial.” [Mike laughs] “I’ve never never thought that could come up in a podcast that I listen to.”
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re welcome…
KYLE GETZ
You’re welcome… nerd!
MIKE JOHNSON
…now very messy mathematician. [both laugh] Uhh, it is 20×21, so it is- It’s the multiplication of two numbers in order, which make it a pronic number.
KYLE GETZ
Pronic!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m pro-Nick… Lachey! [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
God, he’s still so hot!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Get in my booty. Um, uh, it is the smallest number that’s divisible by all of the numbers 1 to 7.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
And, as a consequence of that, it is a harshad number in every base from 2 to 10, except base-5. Fuck.
KYLE GETZ
Sorry, round two, mathematicians! You gotta-
MIKE JOHNSON
[both chuckle] Yeah. Hope your refractory period is as short as it needed to be.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] You just got to come twice in five minutes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it’s also a balanced number, which, I don’t know what that means.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and then- And then, last… Uh, okay, I worked really hard, Kyle, to find like any gay connection to, like, a fuckload of this shit.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I have a limited amount of time that I go and do research for the show, and I was like “Were any of the Waldos gay? Was- Was-” No. “Was, uh, Louis Pasteur, the statue that they were going to, was he gay?” [Kyle chuckles] [Did he have opinions about gay people?” [Kyle chuckles] I looked up the guy that sculpted the statue, to figure out whether [Kyle laughs] he was gay or not.
KYLE GETZ
You were reaching. You were reach-arounding.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s San Rafael High School so I was like “San Rafael? Is that kind of- some kind of religious person? Were there gay rumors about that person?” Turns out it’s the Archangel Raphael, and not a person that had a sexuality. Just, I kept looking and looking so I was very happy when I discovered that 420 is the country code for the Czech Republic, and-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] [Mike laughs] The clearest connection that I can imagine.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, yes.
KYLE GETZ
We have country codes for things?
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, we’re +1.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhh. There’s a country that you dial- “Please Dial 420” first?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, Czech Republic… or Czechia, if you’re from Czechia.
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and- So, first of all, in the Czech Republic, marijuana is decriminalized, it is not legalized. That’s why the distinction there. So, you can have a small amount of marijuana for personal use and not suffer any, like, consequences. But it’s interesting-
KYLE GETZ
I would think-
MIKE JOHNSON
Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
I would think Amsterdam would have this radiating effect outwards to like anywhere, like just a radius surrounding it, of…
MIKE JOHNSON
I read, somewhere but I didn’t save it, that the Netherlands, Amsterdam, it’s actually not legal, it’s just decriminalized.
KYLE GETZ
Really?!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s like the most famous place to… to 420.
MIKE JOHNSON
Apparently that’s just- That’s a function of decriminalization, not legalization.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the Czech Republic- So, wh- When you think Czech Republic, Kyle, what do you think?
KYLE GETZ
Boy, I think, like… I should have paid attention in history. Like, I just think about like- I’m- I think I know where that is on a map. I think it hugs Russia, maybe?
MIKE JOHNSON
So-
KYLE GETZ
Like, this- These are- I- Very little, Mike. I think very little, because I’m so bad at geography.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It doesn’t border Russia, but that’s okay. Um-
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
But it wasn’t- It’s eastern Europe and was an Eastern Bloc country. So, when the Soviet Union was chugging along, it was, like, Czechoslovakia. And, when it was Czechoslovakia, it was on the Soviet side of the equation. So I associate it with like conservative, backwards, like long ways to go when it comes to LGBT stuff, like Russia.
KYLE GETZ
Like Florida.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like Florida. And I- I’m surprised. So, the Czech Republic is the most progressive former Eastern Bloc country in regards to LGBT rights.
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
They have had registered partnerships since 2006 for same sex couples, and the, uh- They don’t have same-sex marriage but same-sex marriage has been, like, discussed in-
KYLE GETZ
Decriminalized? Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] -in their legislature for a while. It went all the way…
KYLE GETZ
…Up?
MIKE JOHNSON
Parliament. Parliament- Parliament was discussing it this year- or, 2021, sorry. A couple years ago. They have laws against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, and 80% of Czechs in a Pew Pew Pew Research Center [Kyle chuckles] poll thought that homosexuality should be accepted by society.
KYLE GETZ
Damn, that’s better than us.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s one of the highest rates among countries surveyed. And more than 67% of Czechs support legalization of same-sex marriage, as of 2020.
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, prior to 2015 when it was legalized by the Supreme Court, we had- our numbers were worse than that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but have gone up since then. They allow adoption regardless of sexual orientation and regardless of marital status, so gay people can adopt just fine in the Czech Republic. Transgender people are allowed to change gender, but they have to have surgery.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
But that’s still more progressive than a lot of-
KYLE GETZ
Many places, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-a lot of parts of the world. [clears throat] Looking at you, UK. [Kyle laughs] And, uh, LGBT people are allowed to serve in their military. Um, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
If you had an area code for yourself, what would it be?
MIKE JOHNSON
69.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I very much enjoy 69. Okay, I- Our friend Kelly, I went to her birthday and it was at a trivia bar and it was straight people trivia, and we were had this whole conversation about, like, “Is 69 good?”
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Do people actually like to 69?”
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
And the straight people seemed kind of divided on that. I’m like, “No, it’s amazing. What’s wrong with all of you?”
KYLE GETZ
Really? Huh! I would expect every gay person to be like “Yeah, that’s cool.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway…
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Mine would be… 811. Two holes, two sticks.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Great.
KYLE GETZ
Everyone mix.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um… Should I tell you stuff?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, tell me stuff.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I’m gonna tell you about bro culture in weed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, weed- This-
MIKE JOHNSON
Brah.
KYLE GETZ
Brah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Brah. Hacky sacks and… um, white people dreadlocks, [Kyle laughs] and patchouli. Like, these are-
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Absolutely. Um, have you heard “420 friendly”, like, on profiles?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve seen that. I’ve seen that before, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There were a ton of articles that were like “What does ‘420 friendly’ mean?” and I was like… “Isn’t that obvious?” Do people need- I guess people ask that question, because it’s a website.
MIKE JOHNSON
It seems obvious.
KYLE GETZ
It seems obvious to me, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Hm. Okay, bro culture. Weed. That means either you smoke weed- “420 friendly,” you smoke weed or you’re cool with people that do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
On a dating profile.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, bro culture and weed. Uh, LGBT- One of the things that I think I mentioned last time, that is worth repeating when we talk about weed, is that LGBT activists were leaders in the fight to legalize it, in part because of AIDS/HIV.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Because the government did not give a shit about them and they needed to find their own ways to treat what they were going through. Marijuana was a useful thing, and they- One of their successes, they passed California’s- helped pass California’s Proposition 215 in ’96.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, one of the- Sometimes people are like “Oh, yeah, LGBT people lead the way in that!” and sometimes I’m like “Did they really, or do we just want to- Are we just trying to give us credit for so-” You know, like, that seems like a cool, PC thing to say, but it’s like, I want to know, like- Okay, then tell me. Help me, like, get to why that’s true. And, in this case, because of AIDS, it like very much is true and is connected. So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Do you feel like that? Do you sometimes feel like people are, like, pandering to be like… “This group has led the way?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Um.. some- I mean, sometimes, obviously. And I think, also sometimes, or most of the time, it’s just true.
KYLE GETZ
And then it ends up being true, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Yeah. Like, “Did you know that this group, that you don’t think would be good, was?” [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That’s very true. That’s very true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no, Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no, I think I just sound dumb.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, nearly 14% of people working in the cannabis industry are LGBT.
MIKE JOHNSON
My pot store’s LGBT-owned.
KYLE GETZ
Really?!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s awesome. Oh, I’ll talk a little bit more about ownership. There, I think, are a lot of- And do you, like, notice seemingly gay people that work there?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and the progress pride flag is, like, in the window, and it’s pretty great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Apparently, there are a decent number of gay people in the industry, but then a lot of them are the ones that are the lower wage people that are working with desk, or, like, not at the executive level.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So- Oh, that survey that said that was done by Vangst, a cannabis industry recruiting platform.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm!
KYLE GETZ
There are so many weed-based things. Like, when I was looking it up, there so many- Like, the weed industry is like fucking booming.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Everything- There was, like, this weed magazine, or this weed-specific advertising firm, or this weed-specific this thing…
MIKE JOHNSON
Because of all the places it’s legal, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s new. [Mike chuckles] We need a lot- It puts money into the economy. Anyway, Kassia Graham, who is the director of community strategy for Cannaclusive, a cannabis advocacy and marketing firm- Because that’s a thing, based in Brooklyn, New York. [Mike chuckles] Kassia’s also black and nonbinary. They didn’t use their pronouns, so I’m gonna use- they/them is what I’ll default to. Kassia says, quote, “Cannabis revolves around bro culture,” “Even within the queer community, there’s still lots of white, cis people at the helm.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So that makes sense to me that there are limited people at the executive level, and those that are would be the gay cis white men.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. For sure. That’s the, like- We get- You know, we get one pass. You’re allowed- These days, you’re allowed to be a cis gay white man, and that’s more accepted than any other identity or if you have something plus, you know, some other, you know, identity.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Also, LGBT is not the only issue. According to Marijuana Business Daily… Every fucking brand. [Mike laughs] I’m like, sure. Marijuana Business Daily says that women account for just 22% of executive positions, which… should be 50, so we’re- and racial and ethnic minorities make up 13%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
So, they’re- They’re- Like, seeing all of those numbers that, again, not one of them- Like, they’re all numbers we hear, you know, even just general industry, so it’s not that surprising, but also reinforced that, like, okay, that would make sense then if the people that are getting the money from this are bros, or like finance bros, or, like, you know, straight stoner bros, or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, do you think- So, tying that to bro culture is really interesting to me.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it sort of implies, in a way, that, like- On the one hand it’s privilege, and that’s what you’re touching on, but also, like… bros took over marijuana because bros are pot smokers. Right? Like, it’s part of- Is- Is it part of bro culture to get high?
KYLE GETZ
I- I guess so. I think there’s a stoner bro culture.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I think there’s at least a subset of that. Like, I think, you know, bros could do a lot of things. Like, you know, like, there’s like fratty bros and there’s gym bros, and sometimes they overlap but sometimes they’re like different kinds of bros. I think, like, “stoner bro” is one of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Skaters.
KYLE GETZ
And I think stoner bro- Like, a white stoner bro, then it is more acceptable for certain groups in our society than a black person smoking weed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, we then place our stereotypes and biases on people and “Oh, it’s just a-” It’s nonthreatening when it’s a straight white dude.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So that’s the group that I’m imagining, that are kind of running this.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then- And then use it to put a bunch of black people in jail.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Despite not hurting anybody.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. Um, I mean, part of the- I really like the- The place that I go to, you can select- 5% of your spend is donated, and you can select, and I always pick the Last Prisoner Project because if- Like, legalizing weed needs to come with lots of pardons for people that – especially black people – that are in prison for weed, for nonviolent drug offenses that should- Like, now this shit is legal and we’re talking about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, no one should be in prison for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
It’s legal. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, that- Unfortunately, I don’t know that that’s gonna come along with legalization, but it should.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Anywhomsles, uh, Weedmap, which is a website, had a 2021 cannabis in America report that found that-
MIKE JOHNSON
I it a map of where the weed is?
KYLE GETZ
Weedmaps? Um, I think they have info on, like, different local, like, shops.
MIKE JOHNSON
Looks like Amazon.
KYLE GETZ
Amazon for weed?
MIKE JOHNSON
For weed!
KYLE GETZ
Wow, that’s a great- That’s a great logline, right there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Amazon for weed.” Um… In their survey, more than a third of people said they wanted to shop with an LGBTQ-owned cannabis business.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
So people are looking- Which, it’s cool that you have one, so you know for sure that you’re doing that. People want to, but only 13 percentage of- 13% of people know if their cannabis retailer is LGBT or not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which, I don’t know, actually. Like, as I was writing that I was like “Oh, that’s-” I don’t know if my place is LGBTQ-owned. I know they’re the more- Like, they’re not the big corporation. They’re, like, the smaller kind of shop that also donates money, so I like them a lot.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then, I’m also gonna bet… It’s Seattle, there’s probably fuckin’ pride flags everywhere.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, there’s pride flags. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like you, basically- Like, you just have to do that, as a business here in this- [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. Even Uncle Ike’s, the big corporation one that I try to avoid, throws up so many pride flags. Like, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um… so, I will- Maybe I will figure out who are the owners of this shop. That’s something I should do, and maybe more of us should do if you buy illegally.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m also realizing that I’m just taking their sign’s word for it. When it says “LGBT-owned business” on a sign in there I just assumed that- Why would they lie about that?
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, owned! Yeah, not just hanging flags, saying you’re LGBT-owned. Yeah, I think that’s fair. Like, that would be some major deception. That’d be really shitty, manipulative people that I think is- Like, that’s on them, not you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Republicans!
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Um, so, apparently-
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause they love money [chuckles] more than they’re more than their values. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] That’s- I mean, I know we make fun of Republi- Ugh, fuck them. That’s fine. You’re attacking the trans community, fuck off. Apparently, we have a very big purchasing power so we are worth marketing towards. This is one of those times where it’s like, it sucks. Some people care about money more than their values, so sometimes you have to give the numbers to help convince people to care about our rights.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And that’s a shitty order to have to do things in, but sometimes it just works, so here it is. Uh, 2016 estimates from LGBT Capital – that in… capital, it’s a proper noun – puts global purchasing power, the global purchasing power of the queer community, at 5.4 trillion. And, of that, US and Canada- How much of that is US and Canada?
MIKE JOHNSON
92%.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Not that much. 20%. Over 1 trillion of it is estimated to be from the US and Canada.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. ‘Kay.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a shit-ton of money that- And, we don’t even- It’s not even legal in every state here, so, like, that’s-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a growth market.
KYLE GETZ
It’s a growth- [Mike chuckles] It is definitely a growth market, and once things- Do you- I just see, like, we are going to legalize eventually, it’s just a matter of when. Do you feel that way too?
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, if you’d asked me before we started debating whether it was okay for drag queens to exist-
KYLE GETZ
That’s true.
MIKE JOHNSON
-I would’ve said “For sure.” It just- Everything feels like it’s going backwards at a high rate of speed right now, and so I have- I had more optimism about the legalization of marijuana… not, like, a year ago.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. That’s a good point, Mike. I was feeling too good for a second, and you helped me bring me down. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayish. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I appreci- I needed that. I needed someone to ground me in the muck that is reality.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, so thank you. Um, I agree, anything that, like- Like I said, like, it’s gonna go to the Supreme Court. Anything now that’s, like, gonna go to the Supreme Court, it’s like “Oh, well, fuck.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s not great right now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not great right now. Clarence Thomas-
KYLE GETZ
Man, he shouldn’t be there anymore.
MIKE JOHNSON
Man- [chuckles] Man, he should not.
KYLE GETZ
Man, so much of what he did should be illegal.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Or is and he-
KYLE GETZ
Or is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or, he won’t- Yeah, but they- He won’t suffer consequences.
KYLE GETZ
Because Republicans don’t care as long as you’re a Republican.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
[sighs] Um, anyhow- So, part of- You know, like, we were talking about just places that just put up pride flags and you’re just, like- In Seattle, that’s the price of doing business. You just have to- It’s assumed that you have to- Anyway, I think LGBT people are also starting to catch on to some of that, and, you know, that’s not enough. We want to look a little bit deeper. Anyway, so, out of 4000 respondents, they were asked how they felt about corporates that advertise- corporations that advertise to the LGBT community, and the percentage that felt positively towards that- 15% feel positively- feel very positively when companies do pride-themed ad campaigns. That number jumps to over 40% for companies that advertise on a regular basis, not just during pride month.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So I liked that difference, that big increase that there is if we know you support us year-round and not just during June.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. No-
KYLE GETZ
That should be important. That’s a big distinction.
MIKE JOHNSON
That makes sense, yeah. It’s the- How sincere are you when July 1st is when you, like, roll back your logo as quickly as you can?
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. How sincere are you? I like that. Because you can still mean it during Pride month, but is that embedded into your core values? Like, how much do you care? How much are you talking about it outside of that month? Those all matter.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So yeah, I wrote down a link to brands that support- that are LGBT-owned and I didn’t write down any of the names on my actual paper.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Okay. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know what’s on this link because I print out my paper. [sound of paper flapping]
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
So I’m not gonna read this link, but I’ll give to Derek the link so that we can post on Instagram the LGBT-owned brands.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Excellent. …Follow the link, everybody. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Click on it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, Kyle, what have we done? I don’t have anything more.
KYLE GETZ
Are we- Did we finish?
MIKE JOHNSON
420.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I feel like we should be talking more about it. What’s your- What’s your personal marijuana use?
MIKE JOHNSON
Rarely, and usually in edible form. Smoking it is just- First of all, I quit smoking and it was like the hardest thing that I have ever done. And I… just nervous about inhaling anything.
KYLE GETZ
Any kinda- Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or like I have weird PTSD flashbacks to smoking cigarettes. It just- Eh. And, it is so harsh. Like someone in our life [both chuckle] used to say, you don’t get off until you cough.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just- Like, it feels like your lungs are on fire. Like, why sign up for that? No amount of fun is worth that.
KYLE GETZ
You do, like, figure that- You’d get used to that and know how to do it a little bit more.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ehh.
KYLE GETZ
It’s not always horrible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank God for vape pens, that’s make it a lot easier than, like, inhaling burning leaves. But-
KYLE GETZ
That, I fear, would lead more to actual, like, vaping, like, of nicotine than other things.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm. Maybe.
KYLE GETZ
I hate- Like, you mentioned up front, like, we were trained. I went through D.A.R.E. in Texas where I thought that if you do a drug once it’s the same as doing them all. Like they are all on a equal footing of “All drug bad.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which fucked with my brain about what drugs to use and “What’s the difference?” and “What’s a sometimes, and what’s a never, like, drug?” So, I don’t know. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about you? What’s your… you know?
KYLE GETZ
I- It’s also rare for me. I think, during the pandemic, I like used weed way too much and then, at a certain point, I was like “Ahh, I’m just doing this because I don’t want to feel stuff.” So I had- I feel like I’m in the process of like unlearning a lot of things that I picked up during COVID.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
So, I’m- That, and alcohol use, I’m trying to like cut back on and be a reasonable human, and I think I’m still in that. Like, Joe Biden says the pandemic is over so, like, no one- I don’t know. People don’t talk about some of these lasting effects.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I think this is one of those lasting effects that I’m working through, of not needing stuff to just numb out everything.
MIKE JOHNSON
For sure.
KYLE GETZ
And I’ve had to, like, wean myself off. So it’s rare. It is- Like, on the scale of what bad things I could do to numb things out, it’s not the worst thing. I might just do it, sit at home, and like eat too much food.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Like, which, on the scale of bad things, that’s- you know, you can come back from that. So, like, I don’t know. It still is, like, I think, for me, not a super healthy thing to do with any kind of regularity. So yeah, very rare.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, not opposed? You’re not like-
KYLE GETZ
No, no. Fully support legalization, full legalization, and release of prisoners who are in jail because of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like impossible to overdose on, and it’s not like everybody like gets high and then jumps behind the wheel of a car and drives out. Like, they just want to sit on their couch and eat nachos.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
God, I want nachos so bad right now.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo!
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, anyway, so- But yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Derek.
MIKE JOHNSON
What? No. No, don’t put that on him.
KYLE GETZ
…Get us nachos. [chuckles] [Mike laughs] I’ll pay you double. I will pay you any amount of money for nachos. Um, from the Gayish account. Um, yeah, legalize it. What were we talking about?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, legalize it. It’s safe, that’s the thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, alcohol- The- Just-
KYLE GETZ
It’s more dangerous. Or, less dangerous than alcohol.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s worse for your body, it causes more like car crashes than anything, and people get violent, and you have to listen to their stories. Like, just-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] I don’t know, sometimes when you get high you have to listen to people’s stories, but they’re like rambling stories that they don’t know where they started.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Gayish. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that it?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We confirm, like, that the stereotype is gay, and… it is.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the- That’s the final verdict?
MIKE JOHNSON
Although, 420 itself… nothing to do with gay people. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, oh, yes, just the weed part. 420… [chuckling] well, there’s one connection and that’s to the Czech Republic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, okay, I think we did it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great! Okay, so should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
You said- You’ve said you get quiet when you get high.
MIKE JOHNSON
I do get quiet when I get high.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you for not doing that on our podcast, where we talk.
MIKE JOHNSON
I try. I’m trying. Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, hey!
KYLE GETZ
Hey.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey!
KYLE GETZ
Hey.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re going on tour.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
we’re doing our 6th anniversary tour, and, finally, the shit is, like, for reals now.
KYLE GETZ
Locked in.
MIKE JOHNSON
For realsingtons.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, you can write these down. All of this is listed at gayishpodcast.com/live, and you can get tickets off of our Eventbrite. But here’s the- Here’s the what we’re doing, and a couple of these are different than what I said before, so just pretend I didn’t say it before.
KYLE GETZ
Brand new information to you.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m saying it now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sunday, June the 4th, at 7pm in New York City we will be at The Spot, which is a gay bar in Hell’s Kitchen. Friday, June 23rd, at 3pm we will be in Seattle, Washington at the Hula Hula. That’s a collaboration with Derek and Romaine. It’s gonna be magical.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Saturday, July 29th, at 1pm we will be in Chicago, Illinois at Sidetrack there in Boystown, Northalsted neighborhood. Sunday, August the 13th, at 1pm in San Francisco, California at OASIS. Sunday, September 10th, at 4pm Pacific in Los Angeles, California at Akbar, in the Silver Lake neighborhood. And Sunday, October 15th, at 12:30pm we’ll be in Houston, Texas at [in a high-pitched voice] KIKI. And I can’t not say [high-pitched] “KIKI”, [Kyle laughs] which is a newer venue that’s attached to BUDDY’S, if you know where that is, in Montrose. So come- Come see us.
KYLE GETZ
It’s gonna be a lot of fun. We’re gonna do… I don’t know, just our show. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And you should come see it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep! Come see it.
KYLE GETZ
Nnn…
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna- I’m not gonna do Local Gay Bar Review, I’m too stoned.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [in a singsong voice] Local Stoned Mike Review.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Uh…
KYLE GETZ
Very. I’ll rate you as “very”.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Ver-” Oh. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s my Mike Gay Stoned Review.
MIKE JOHNSON
You win.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, no. Our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] You can find our Discord, Instagram, Spaces, all the things, at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474.
KYLE GETZ
Got it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. HMU. Umm, Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Now Gayest & Straightest!
KYLE GETZ
Great. I’ll go, because I’ve been eager, I guess.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Um, my straightest is: going to the Optimism brewery here in Seattle, where it is- I think it’s like people that play board games and then straight couples that go on dates.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. That checks out.
KYLE GETZ
And they, like, serve beer. They have- Their whole thing is they have all this beer on tap.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, just a very straight- Just a straight venue. The gayest is checking out all the straight bros that were there.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There were so many hot ones. I feel bad for the person I was with, because I kept looking around at all the, like, hot straight bros. So it was like “No, I’m focused.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw.
KYLE GETZ
“I’m paying attention. I’m here. I’m with you.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And the fact that they’re not paying attention to you makes it- [Kyle laughs] makes you even hornier.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, true. See our episodes on assholes. Uh, what about you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the straightest thing about me this week is not caring about the RuPaul finale.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, right.
MIKE JOHNSON
Paid zero attention. Did not-
KYLE GETZ
You even asked, like, “Is there something going on?” [Mike chuckles] Someone was like “I’m here,” and-
MIKE JOHNSON
One of our friends [unintelligible] and I was like “Yeah,” and he was just like “What?”
KYLE GETZ
I also- To be fair, I did not know it was the finale either.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And I don’t know who won, and don’t want to look that up either.
KYLE GETZ
Someone said their name to me because I was like “Oh, just tell me who won so I, like, have a social touchstone with other people that are into this,” and I forgot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the gayest thing about me this week: I was at the pharmacy picking up some pills yesterday and I was just staring out the window at this boy’s ass in these pants. [Kyle chuckles] He was waiting at the crosswalk. He was with a couple of other straight bros. I think they were all straight, except, maybe not. I don’t know. But this boy’s jeans were painted on him, and his booty- All of a sudden, I hear “Sir, can I help you!?” [laughs] The pharmacist tried to get my attention. I was, like, holding up the line.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a lot.
MIKE JOHNSON
That boy’s aaaass.
KYLE GETZ
Ass. Ass, ass, ass, ass. Um, I have a listener’s Gayest & Straightest. Every week, Derek, our production assistant, posts a question to Instagram to get you to post your Gayest & Straightest there, and you can follow other people there. So, follow us @gayishpodcast. But one of the gayests that I really liked: “I listened to a Love Is Blind podcast. I could feel myself getting dumber by the minute.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, you can.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Don’t listen to that podcast, listen to ours. And, what’s your straightest? Someone said that they saw an ad for Death Do Us Part… Anything? Uh-
MIKE JOHNSON
I love that show.
KYLE GETZ
You like the documentary featuring Kourtney Kardashian and Travis Barker?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] [Mike chuckles] That’s the one they were talking about. They saw an ad for Death Do Us Part Kourtney & Travis and had “no clue what I was looking at.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I kind of- I saw that on Hulu and I kind of want to watch that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, well, do it and let me know.
KYLE GETZ
She got- She got together with the Blink-182 guy. Isn’t that crazy?!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And he died, right?
KYLE GETZ
No. He’s alive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Are we sure?
KYLE GETZ
Did he die?
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know!
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god, did he die?! [both chuckle] Hold on. “Is Travis Barker dead?” No. Okay. Everybody, [both chuckle] calm down. He’s still alive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Because then I was like, oh [quietly] “’Til Death Do Us Part”, then maybe he did die.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s over. [chuckles] They parted. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You parted. No. Nope, still live. We’re all good. Anyway, um… that is it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s it. A special thank you to the Waldos for giving us 420. 420 Louis.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you to… all the queer people that are in upper level management positions in the weed industry. I guess and in lower level positions, I don’t know why- And all gay people. And everyone. Thank you, everyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you for the weed, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] No problem. [Mike chuckles] Sorry, everybody. I also want to thank our following Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, and… Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] That’s it. This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be high… Be bi. Bye.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bye. [both chuckle]
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs]
KYLE GETZ
How’re you feelin’?
MIKE JOHNSON
A little high. I don’t know the difference between CBD and THC-
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
-to know if I’m actually gonna get high.
KYLE GETZ
It might- 5 milligrams is pretty small for THC.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t think CBD…
MIKE JOHNSON
Should I do more? [chuckles] This is also a problem. Like, sometimes I go back and do more and then I sleep in the Jeep. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Give it- Well, that- Up to you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
And, given you said one of the risks is you want to go sleep in your Jeep, and we have to record a podcast, I would- I would be less comfortable if you did another one. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Let’s do it! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You’re gonna do it?! Oh no, please stay awake, Mike!
MIKE JOHNSON
I will.
KYLE GETZ
You could, like, do half of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Half of it! You could do the other half.
KYLE GETZ
I could.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you want to?
KYLE GETZ
No. [sound of Mike opening packaging] Oh no.
DEREK TELLIN
What is it?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a truffle.
DEREK TELLIN
Oh…
KYLE GETZ
It is… a hybrid cookies and cream truffle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mmm. Mmm, it tastes like magic. Okay, ready.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Good news, now I have the outro easter egg done. That was fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [chuckles]
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]