Gayish: 321 Queer Jews (w/ Rachael Fried)

Rachael Fried, Executive Director of JQY (Jewish Queer Youth), joins us to talk about the challenges of being Jewish in LGBTQ+ spaces, older singles, actions vs. identity, Leviticus, Yeshiva University, the rise in anti-Semitism.

In this episode: News- 1:59 || Main Topic (Queer Jews)- 13:26 || Guest (Rachael Fried)-19:27 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:05:26

On the weekly bonus Patreon segment, we talk with Rachael about her love life, her upcoming wedding, and whether we can say “Jews.” Get lots of great perks and support the show by joining at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

To learn more about JQY:

FULL TRANSCRIPT

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ  

The podcast that has hope for a better future, but only because I have cookies at home.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Oh. Oh. Oh. Carbs are the hope of the future for tomorrow.

KYLE GETZ  

Carbs are our children of the future. [both laugh] Wait…

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz.

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…

KYLE GETZ

Today…

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m so fancy.

KYLE GETZ

Why are you so fancy, Mike?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, I’m basically like in business casual today.

KYLE GETZ  

I know. Yeah. You came prepared. You’re official.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, yeah. We’re gonna talk about jews.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, you’re not gonna expl- You’re just saying that you’re dressed in fancy clothes, and that’s it?

MIKE JOHNSON  

I was at a fraternity conference this weekend, and I am- I’m very much dressed in my like, frat attire, so if you went to a frat daddy looks like, this is it. This is-

KYLE GETZ  

You can’t. if you want to see what it looks like, you can’t. We have no way of you doing that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yep. Enjoy.

KYLE GETZ

There you go. [both laugh] But you can hear the suit in your voice.

MIKE JOHNSON

Can you?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How were your make out parties this weekend?

MIKE JOHNSON

I didn’t make out, at all.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay, so they were good. That’s- Hey, everyone, Mike had a lot of fun with his make out and tickle parties. I get it. It’s fine. I expected that to show up in your Gayest & Straightest, not up top.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, it will. We’re gonna talk about Jews.

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna talk about Jews!

MIKE JOHNSON

MIKE JOHNSON

But first…

KYLE GETZ

But first…

MIKE JOHNSON

I assume we’re talking about Jews; we could be talking about Judaism. I think we’re going to talk to our guest about the appropriateness of using that word, and we’ll see what happens.

KYLE GETZ  

Oh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But- But yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, we’re gonna have a guest on to talk about being queer and Jewish, so, excited to talk to her about that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, absolutely. Um, but first…

KYLE GETZ

But first…

MIKE JOHNSON

Here’s the news.

[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.

MIKE JOHNSON

News the first. This is a clusterfuck that I just don’t know how to untangle.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, so- Okay…

KYLE GETZ

Okay. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON

A dude and this chick are, like, they have a daughter.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

Then they divorce, and he comes out, and gets remarried, this time to a dude. The girl is now 10. The ex-wife and his daughter moved from California to the state of Arizona, and the mom enrolled her in a religious school without his knowledge or consent. He and his husband moved to Arizona to be closer to her, and the two of them apparently – he and his husband – were chased off campus and told that they were unwelcome because of their sexual orientation.

KYLE GETZ

Whoaah.

MIKE JOHNSON

They were- They say that they were threatened. We’re gonna go over what happened and we can, like, weigh in on whether that constitutes a threat or not. But, Don Williams and Jose Ortega told The Advocate that Heart Cry, a Christian academy in Queen Creek, informed them-

KYLE GETZ  

“Heart Cry”?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Damn.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow, that’s powerful!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, “Heart Cry”?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. “Jesus died and my heart cried, and then I named a school after it.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Yeah, I need to have a good heart cry. Or, I would if I had a heart. I think I’m dead inside now.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, but Pastor Billy VanCamp, in late January, when they arrived at the school to pick up his daughter, VanCamp told them they were not welcome on school property and said parents send their children here to keep them safe from gay people.

KYLE GETZ

Fuck you.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Ortega asked VanCamp if he was threatening him. VanCamp allegedly responded “Try me.”

KYLE GETZ  

What a- What a dumb- “Try me, bro.” Shut the fuck up. I fucking hate this guy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, I mean… yeah. He’s an evil, fuckface, dickbag, asshole.

KYLE GETZ  

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. “Try me.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

I’ll start using that in my, like, day-to-day conversations, when it’s unwarranted. “How are you doing?” “Try me!”

MIKE JOHNSON  

According to the East Valley Tribune, in 2011, VanCamp – the head dickbag – saw that there was a photo of a lesbian couple in the Queen Creek High School yearbook. He threatened to remove his kids from the school because they were exposing them to objectionable materials. That didn’t go anywhere, so he said “Fine, fuck it!” and started his own school.

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. [Mike laughs] I mean, he’s an asshole, but he’s got resolve.

MIKE JOHNSON

[laughs] Yeah, exactly.

KYLE GETZ

You know? If I actually did something about half of my beliefs, I would be a much better person.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Mhm. [laughs] Yeah. Any other- It just- It’s just messy. It’s really messy. There’re all of these-

KYLE GETZ  

How is it- That doesn’t seem very messy to me; that seems pretty straightforward. It just seems like people were- A Christian school is shitty to gays, just like they do.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Right. That’s true, and what do you do from- What do you do from there, right? Like, I assume that this guy has no, like, legal ability to change what school his daughter goes to. A lot of this, um- He’s worried about how this is impacting his daughter’s feelings about her father.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

He said, quote, “[I’m] fine with [my] ex-wife’s religion, but [not] that she found a school that is entirely against [me] and [my] husband.” “I honestly believe she did that on purpose.”

KYLE GETZ

Ohhhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh, he believes that his daughter is being poisoned against him and his husband by his ex-wife’s influence, and apparently his ex-mother-in-law said that they’re “living in sin” and it’s been “confusing” for the daughter. Quote, “To her, it’s confusing knowing that she loves us and I’m her father, yet there’s a negative [influence] from the other side.” So, the ex-wife has primary custody, gets to choose where the daughter goes to school, and it’s just a- It’s a big ole messy situation. That’s the mess. The backbone of the story, of just like, yeah, bigots were bigots to people that don’t need to be bigoted against, that’s true.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s what happened. Anyway, news the second?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. You look like a newscaster right now. I’m having a very- [Mike laughs] That’s very odd that you’re dressed- that you have a suit jacket on while we record.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sorry.

KYLE GETZ

No, it’s- I mean, do what you want. It’s just- Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I do what I want, Kyle!

KYLE GETZ  

Sure, but you can’t blame me for, one time out of 320 episodes you wear a suit jacket, that I’m a little thrown off.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah! Be as thrown off as you want to be, ‘cause this is happening.

KYLE GETZ  

I do- [both laugh] I’m in it. It’s happen- It’s already happened.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I’m gonna- I don’t know if this is gonna come through. I’m gonna play it. That is a video of a woman at the Central Park Zoo screaming at Sam Smith, who is walking by casually. She’s saying, quote, “You belong in hell. Sam Smith belongs in hell, you demonic, twisted, sick bastard. Leave the kids alone, you sick fucker. Sam Smith as a pedophile … You sick motherfucker, Sam Smith. You’re evil.”

KYLE GETZ  

Damn. Sam Smith is not doing jack shit to your kids! If you want your shitty kids to not watch Sam Smith, turn off the fucking TV! You are raising your kids, I am not raising your kids, Sam Smith isn’t raising your kids! You- If you want to treat your shitty kids like little shitty kids, turn off the TV and take them to your dumb private university that treats people like shit! That’s not my problem! You are not my problem, you can’t fucking yell at people!

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. [chuckles] I mean, you can if you have a podcast.

KYLE GETZ

You can yell at people on your own podcast, on your explicit feed. That’s where you can yell at people! Get a fuckin’ podcast, lady! You can yell whatever shit you want it Sam Smith!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Yep. I guess- I guess, technically, she can yell at him. It’s a free country.

KYLE GETZ

“them”.

MIKE JOHNSON

Them. She can yell at them because it’s a free country, and-

KYLE GETZ  

No. No, you can’t. You can’t yell at people- You can’t yell obscenities at people whenever you want. That’s not- That’s, like, harassment or something.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Should be. I don’t know if it is. Anyway, at the end of the clip, there’s someone else – not the loud woman – but yells out and calls him- them a groomer, which, there’s that word. “Woke groomer” is like, again, you know, these meaningless things that have just reached the level of, just, “If I don’t like it, I call it that.”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, I heard Republican lawmakers saying this word. The problem is, it does mean something, or it has in the past, and it’s useful to understand how pedophiles attack their victims and treat their victims. It’s and very useful, important way to understand real pedophilia.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. And to water this word down, with just anyone you don’t like, makes it- enables actual pedophiles because then we don’t understand what it really means.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

It’s really frustrating that the people that think they care about pedophiles are not actually targeting or doing anything to help actual pedophiles and child molesters. They’re just lobbing insults at people they don’t like, who are doing nothing but walking through the zoo.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yep. Absolutely.

KYLE GETZ  

Man, I’m angry today.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Good. I’m glad. We did it. [Kyle laughs] Uh, news the last.

KYLE GETZ  

I didn’t let you- I didn’t let you tell much. Is that the- I just kind of yelled for the entire news story.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s it. I think- The other part of it though – and we’ve talked about it off and on – is just, I think shit is real bad right now. And I thought it was bad during the Trump administration, but it has gotten worse, not better, in the conduct of people: the way that they feel empowered and emboldened to just be absolutely fucking ridiculous to our community.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And it is really, really scary, and I think- I believe in my heart that I’m preparing, in my heart, for it to get worse before it gets better.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

I think that this is an extinction burst. They know that we have won. They’re gonna go out kicking and screaming.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

And kicking and screaming they are.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, yeah. Totally.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Um, news the last. This is adorable; a Girl Scout-

KYLE GETZ

[chuckles] Oh, thank you. Thank you. I need this.

MIKE JOHNSON

A Girl Scout from Glendale, California was trying to figure out how to sell a shitload of Girl Scout cookies, because it’s Girl Scout Cookie time, and went to WeHo, and sold about 100 boxes [laughs] in a weekend. Um, it says “per weekend,” so she’s gone more than once, but her name is Siena. Quote, “Siena is participating in a cookie sale to earn money to support Girl Scouts and we thought what better place to sell cookies than in [WeHo].” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Sure.

MIKE JOHNSON

“We were here last weekend. A guy named Adam said he ate through all his boxes. He came back this weekend and said, ‘are you going to pay for my weight watchers?’ I told him that I’m a hypnotherapist, so if he ever wants to cut back on the sweets, to call me,” [Kyle chuckles] um, that’s Siena’s mom. [chuckles] This is her aunt, I think, anyway- said, quote, “I was dreading selling Girl Scout cookies, but the gays have made it so much fun that now I’m happy to drive 40 mins to sell cookies … We were so excited that drag queen Billy [Francesca] bought the last 4 boxes of Lemon-ups, so mom could go home and relax with a glass of wine.” It’s interesting too because people are trying to- they’re being hysterical, like we just said, about children being exposed to LGBTQ+ culture, including drag queens, but apparently Siena is down.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, little girl gives zero fucks. Um, during her-

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. And we’re the ones that’s actually helping and supporting kids. [chuckles] Like, that’s…

MIKE JOHNSON

She did say, apparently, her first weekend in WeHo, quote, “[Mom,] why are there so many naked people?” [laughs]

KYLE GETZ  

Mmm… Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um-

KYLE GETZ

“Well, honey, when two men love each other they have to show it by wearing jockstraps.”

KYLE GETZ

Yep.

MIKE JOHNSON  

There’s some adorable pictures of her selling cookies and- to the gays, that I don’t think are going to actually eat them.

KYLE GETZ  

[both laugh] Well that’s part of, like- We- It’s interesting, we- Our episode- Our bonus episode for this month is chocolate, and we talked about the, like, is it a gay stereotype or not? I had the same thing, like- I think it’s one of those, like, overdone or overstated things. Like, you see all the Instagays that don’t eat any kind of food, or, like, are jacked, and it’s like- the rest of us are like “No, like, cookies are good…”

MIKE JOHNSON

Cookies are gooood.

KYLE GETZ

“And I’m gonna eat ‘em, and I’m not gonna have a six pack, but like, that’s life, you know?”

MIKE JOHNSON

Deal with it. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That’s the news!

KYLE GETZ  

Um, If you want to get access to our bonus episode about chocolate you can join our Patreon. I want to thank the following new Patreon member, so spotlight on you, Uldarico… Sarmiento? The r and the n seem-

MIKE JOHNSON

Nailed it.

KYLE GETZ

I was like, “Why is this m keep going?” and it’s because there was an r before it. Uldarico Sarmiento, probably, maybe. I got close on that one.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I think you- Yes. It’s great. If that’s not your name, change it to that.

KYLE GETZ  

If that’s not your name, you’re wrong, [Mike laughs] and this podcast has now made it official. If you want me to fuck up your name maybe – or get it right, who knows? – go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. We do bonus segments every week, bonus episodes every month, bonus Momsplainings every month, we give away merch and merch discounts, and lots of stuff available, all there. Check out the tiers, and benefits, and joys of being a Patreon member.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Do it. You wanna talk about Jews?

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, let’s do it!

MIKE JOHNSON  

Let’s do it. So I have a friend who’s a fraternity brother – a gay fraternity brother – who listens to the show, who’s Jewish, and we had a little bit of a chat this weekend, when I was in Chicago for the fraternity conference, and he said something that I thought was really, really interesting. He said Orthodox Jews hate him more than they hate me, meaning Mike Johnson, because- Scott’s his name. My friend Scott-

KYLE GETZ

Hi, Scott.

MIKE JOHNSON

-is Jewish and gay, and Orthodox Jews hate that, but they don’t care about me because I’m not Jewish.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm…

MIKE JOHNSON

So it’s like that whole thing about, like, “What’s worse than hatred? Indifference.” They give zero fucks about me because I’m not Jewish, but they hate his guts because he’s Jewish and doing it wrong, and I think that’s really interesting.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Orthodox is, um- I had to- Like, I do not understand the denominations. I barely understand denominations of Christianity, much less of Judaism, so-

MIKE JOHNSON  

It’s okay, Christians don’t either. [both laugh]

KYLE GETZ  

So Orthodox is one of the most conservative- Interestingly, Conservative Judaism is- they have multiple opinions about like, whether they accept or don’t. Like, that’s one that is more kind of- Individual things are- groups are allowed to decide. Reform is the largest denomination within North America and they’re down with gays.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

So I-

MIKE JOHNSON

“Down with” is maybe vague. Like-

KYLE GETZ  

Oh, okay! Uh, in 1977- This is not what I was gonna talk about, but I have this written down. 1977, the Reform’s principle body adopted a resolution calling for an end to discrimination against gays and lesbians. In 2003, they updated to include trans and bisexual people. In 2015, the Reform movement issued a resolution expressing support for trans rights. Months later, the conservative movement, which it’s interesting, like, Orthodox is more conservative than conservative Judaism, so that’s weird- Anyway, months later, in 2015, months after Reform did it, Conservative movement issued a similar resolution in support of trans rights. So they have really tangible- Their leadership has tangible evidence that they support gays all the way back to the 70s, so-

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s cool.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, this is the stuff I’m reading about, but how does it feel in the community? Is- You know, how widespread? That’s what we’re gonna talk about with Rachael, who is the executive director of the Jewish Queer Youth.

MIKE JOHNSON  

JQY!

KYLE GETZ

JQY!

MIKE JOHNSON

We keep seeing it as “JQY” in places, which-

KYLE GETZ

jqyouth.org.

MIKE JOHNSON

I can’t figure out which is harder to say: Jewish queer youth, or JQY.

KYLE GETZ  

[chuckles] We love a mouthful. [Mike laughs] Um, the thing I actually wanted to talk about-

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay great!

KYLE GETZ

I’m so glad you, like- Rarely do you have a question that I have- can like, give you some dates and answers on. You-

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m gonna trust but verify. We’re gonna- We’re gonna-

KYLE GETZ  

Mike, I read- [Mike laughs] No, why don’t you believe me? Well, I don’t believe your news stories.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great. You shouldn’t.

KYLE GETZ

Yes, I should! [Mike laughs] I should trust you to be able to read the news!

MIKE JOHNSON

Eh, mm-mm. [chuckles]

KYLE GETZ

Okay, that’s- This seems like a bigger issue [Mike laughs] we need to explore at a different point in time. Um, Pew’s 2014-

MIKE JOHNSON

Pew pew!

KYLE GETZ

…Great. Uh, [chuckles] U.S. Religious Landscape Study: they surveyed people to ask them about their religion and their political social beliefs about shit. So, for Christians- Again, this is the background. I’m not Christian, but like, I grew up around Christians so that’s what I know of, and they’re, like, the ones that are fucking attacking our community in the US, so like, that’s-

MIKE JOHNSON

Boy howdy, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So, 44% of Christians either favor or strongly favor, same sex marriage.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

48%- This is back in 2014, so that’s the most- you know, their latest survey. Uh, 48% oppose or strongly oppose.

MIKE JOHNSON  

That seems like a lot, but okay.

KYLE GETZ

That’s a lot, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the world has gotten – or U.S. has gotten – less religious and more accepting, so hopefully that’s moved in the right direction since then, but-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, in 2015 was Obergefell, and that’s after that, and we know that Obergefell impacted acceptance of gay marriage after it came into effect.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. So that was 44% of Christians favor, strongly favor.

MIKE JOHNSON

Uh-huh.

KYLE GETZ

77% of Jews favor or strongly favor same sex marriage.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay!

KYLE GETZ

And 18% oppose or strongly oppose.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

So the- In my mind, like, I just put all religion into a big category of religion-

MIKE JOHNSON

And they all suck? [laughs]

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah- I mean, I put religion in this big category of, like, I don’t believe in any of it and I think it is often used to attack our communities. I was surprised at the- how different the support is, in this survey of Jews versus Christians.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Okay. That’s awesome!

KYLE GETZ

Yeah!

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know- I didn’t expect that, because maybe I have the same sort of guilt by association of being a religion, but like, it’s interesting.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

It also matches my like, personal experience. Like, we don’t have a lot of Jewish people in in Seattle, and I don’t have a lot of Jewish friends, but I do have a lot of fraternity brothers and acquaintances that – you know – I’ve had contact with over the years, and they all seem pretty chill about most things, so…

KYLE GETZ  

Like, do you have Christian friends that are against it? Like-

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, mostly from high school because of where I grew up.

KYLE GETZ

Ohhh.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I’m- I’m- I dunno. I’m friends with people I shouldn’t be, just out of like historical reasons or something.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Huh. Well, that’s at least some of the foundational kind of info that I thought was useful to understand. But we’re gonna talk more with our guest, Rachael, in… well, for you all, in mere moments.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. We’re gonna take a break, and when we get back we’re gonna talk to Rachael Fried. You wanna take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Break!

KYLE GETZ

Break.

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back! We’re here with Rachael Fried, who is the executive director of Jewish Queer Youth. Rachel, hi! Welcome.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Super stoked that you’re here.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Um, where do we wanna start? You are the executive director of Jewish Queer Youth. Can you tell us a little bit about what Jewish Queer Youth is and what their mission is?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, I would love to. Our official name is JQY, which stands for Jewish Queer Youth, like you said. Our mission is that we support LGBTQ youth, with a focus on those who come from Orthodox, Chasidic, and Sephardi/Mizrahi Jewish homes. We’re a mental health organization, so everything that we do comes from the lens of just making sure that each individual who comes to JQY is physically and emotionally healthy, and well, and can live their best lives. We have no agenda as to whether people stay part of their communities or leave their communities. Some people come to JQY because they love the Jewish upbringing, and community, and culture that they’re a part of, and want to stay part of it, and some people come because they hate it and don’t want anything to do with it, and, basically, JQY is a place for all those people. So, we have a drop in center for teens, in New York we have a bunch of online virtual programming, we have a warmline that anyone can call to speak with a social worker at any time, and a bunch of other things. I’ll say that the reason we focus on those specific communities that I said – Orthodox, Chasidic, and Sephardi/Mizrahi – is because those are the most rejecting- most likely to be rejecting of LGBTQ individuals, and therefore need the most support, and also they have more sort of cultural competencies that are needed in order to work with them. So, they often don’t feel as understood going to a general queer space or even like a Jewish queer space.

KYLE GETZ  

There’s a lot that you mentioned that I wanted to ask about, but one big thing is: you mentioned that some – especially Orthodox – Jewish people don’t feel accepted or understood in LGBT communities. I’m curious, what would you want LGBT communities to know? What’s kind of missing from LGBT communities that makes it so they’re not understood?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. I think- Well, I think there’s sort of cultural competencies. It depends on what community we’re talking about, but especially people who come from more ultra-Orthodox communities, there’s a whole different language, even. You know, people will have Yiddish as their first language. Many places don’t have access to internet. Sometimes even just the way that people dress, you know, when they when they show up to an event or to a space that’s not a Jewish space, and especially to a space that is a queer space, a lot of times people will sort of look like they don’t fit in there and feel like they don’t fit in. I think what’s really interesting is that Orthodoxy, and in general traditional Judaism, can be very, very gendered. And so, there’s a lot of unlearning that somebody has to do when they come out and they grew up in a certain community. There are certain things where- You know, every queer person, and probably every person in general, has to unlearn a bunch of things that they learned from when they were younger, and, you know, question them, and as they get older figure out “Okay, what are the things that I believe in, versus the things I was taught I must believe or have to be true, and maybe they’re not really true?”

MIKE JOHNSON  

Is this our BetterHelp ad, Kyle? [all chuckle] We advertise for BetterHelp sometimes.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah Everyone needs some therapy.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, always. Big- I’m a big fan of therapy. Uh, yeah. So, I think that there’s- There’s a ton of unlearning that has to be done. So, people come to JQY and they’ve never heard of pronouns before, and they feel like they are in the wrong body, or they feel like they are attracted to someone that is the same gender as them, and they thought they were the only person in the world who felt that way until they come to JQY, and then there’s a room of people that all thought they were the only ones like them. So, even like little cultural things like that, of just understanding that not everybody knows what a pronoun is, or has any of the language to talk about queer things in a non-offensive way but not actually trying to be offensive, I think those kinds of things really play a big part. And then there’s also just understanding the community that they come from. So, I think what is important to know is that it’s easy to assume, based on how people look, that they are a certain way, and even in the most open minded space, I think- I think, especially in queer spaces, that there is a lot of sort of negative feelings towards religion or towards religious-looking people, which is an understandable thing because religion has been used against queer people for a very long time in really harmful ways. And also, there are people who look like they come from a very harmful religion, and maybe that person would even be a person who would use their religion against you, but really they’re also a queer person and you just wouldn’t know it unless you spoke to them.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

You mean, queer people judge people based on how they look? How dare you! [all chuckle] There’s no way that’s true.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, if they didn’t we wouldn’t have a show, so, you know? [Mike and Kyle chuckle]

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

No, we- I mean, these are some of the things we talk about. Sometimes you come out and you are- You know, we say we’re accepting and loving but you get a lot of judgment based on what you look like, if you don’t fit into certain things that we do, like, there’s a whole second layer of judgment and-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Your body type, your gender presentation, your skin color, your- I mean, there’s lots of- But I can’t imagine being in- like, what I think of a Chasidic Jew looks like, going and rolling into an average like cis white gay bar. That- I can’t imagine that going well, like…

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. [chuckles] Right, exactly. Yeah. I think- Yeah. And I also think that it’s important to remember that just because somebody comes out doesn’t mean that they have all the knowledge, and history, and understanding of what it means to be a queer person. So- We talk about this a lot of JQY because most people who come to JQY have come from Orthodox school or Jewish- they have a huge amount of Jewish knowledge of, you know, all of the texts, and the history, and the culture, and all of the stories that come with it. And then, when somebody comes out, queerness might be just as much a part of their identity as their Jewishness is, and yet they have no context for the history, or the culture, or the language, and all of those things. I think it’s something that- I kinda- I have this dream of like, building a crash course in queer history, specifically for populations that have no idea, like wouldn’t know the name Harvey Milk.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah, that’s super cool. I mean, to a certain extent, the Jewish tradition is millennia – right? – of well-documented, written down shit, that we just- We don’t- We don’t have that for gays, our history has been largely invisible or erased for-

RACHAEL FRIED  

I know, we gotta get on that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, absolutely.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. You mentioned the- your understanding that people’s assumptions about religion, seeing someone who looks religious, they can break a lot of judgments. I think, for me personally, because of growing up in Texas, because of growing up in the U.S., a lot of my assumptions and what I- the judgments I’m bringing are based on Christianity. So, Christianity is also- I think that’s very fair, given the Christian population are the ones attacking the LGBT community. They’re the ones that are a majority in the U.S. and have more of the power. So, I’m curious, what kinds of things would you want someone like me, who’s viewing this from a Christian lens, like what kind of things would you want me to know about that, to kind of separate out Judaism from that kind of just big religion bucket?

RACHAEL FRIED  

One of the things that’s really fascinating to me about Judaism is that so much of it is cultural and about sort of like the social parts of the religion. So, there are many times where certain things will be- it will be, um- somebody will say, “This- Being queer is against Torah values.” Torah is the Hebrew word for the Old Testament. And the truth is that like, actually, it doesn’t really say that in there, in the Torah, and it doesn’t really have any- Like, there was one line- there’s two lines in there, and they apply to a really small percentage of the LGBTQ+ community, and it’s much more about the culture and the social parts of Judaism than it is about the actual text and what’s written, even though Judaism is a very textual-based religion. So I think that part is super fascinating and worth discussing that it’s mostly a social thing, or like a- There’s a lot of fears about how the community is going to view you or your family, and how this is gonna impact other parts of the community, and it’s not as much about the individual person doing something that is, like, a sin.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

There’s a ton of concern around dating in the Jewish world, and anything that’s- This is kind of like Fiddler on the Roof-esque, [Mike and Kyle chuckle] if you’ve seen that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Sunrise, Sunset?

RACHAEL FRIED

But anything that- Right, exactly. Anything that somebody has in a family that’s, like, relatively taboo, affects the other siblings, because when two people get married their families also come together, and there’s a lot of concern about, “Well, if there’s a gay kid in the family…” or queer, or trans, or nonbinary kid, and they’re out and the parents are accepting of it, or they’re out and the parents are not accepting, regardl- like, it doesn’t matter. The fact that that person has a sibling who is out means that they will have a harder time finding a match for themself-

MIKE JOHNSON

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

-or that a parent will have a hard time finding a match for that other sibling. So I think those kinds of things matter actually more than what, like, the religion officially says.

KYLE GETZ  

Interesting. That seems like a- such a great, positive thing. The idea of “Your family is really meaningful,” bringing families together, like, that idea is great, but then when you’re queer it’s like, that’s another added layer of pressure and potential for rejection. It seems like back and go both ways, then.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, totally. It’s like, in Orthodoxy specifically, the sort of ideal is get married in the whatever, quote unquote, “normal” man and woman get married, have many kids, and that’s like the way to thrive in an Orthodox community. And as people get older, if they’re not married, they become what’s known as “older singles”, and older singles have just- it’s just more complicated in the community. They don’t have as a high status. Nope, really says it out loud, but it’s kind of a known thing that if somebody who’s 20 years old and married is more a part of the community than somebody who’s 40 and single, and I think that that’s true for straight people specifically. When we’re talking about queer people, there’s sort of more acceptance within Orthodoxy of people who are… I’m gonna say, specifically gay and single, and there’s kind of like, “Okay, we can, like, tolerate them here, we can even accept-“ you know, I don’t know if “celebrate,” but “We can accept them here,” and as that person gets closer to getting married, if they want to having a family, they then sort of become farther away from the community, which is the opposite interact- the opposite of the way that it goes for straight people. Because then it’s like, we can’t really ignore it as much anymore. When you’re by yourself we can just say, “Okay, you’re just, like, a person who has all your own struggles and whatever else, you know, all your own things to deal with,” and once you’re partnered it becomes more complicated for queer people specifically.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. I saw things that discussed kind of separating out the feeling – like, the same-sex attraction – versus the action, and that those two can be viewed very differently. Is that- Was that part of this separation here?

RACHAEL FRIED  

I think so, yeah. I think- Jewish law talks a lot about actions and behaviors specifically, and not at all about identity. So, it doesn’t matter if you feel like- if you identify as a kind of person, like, Jewish law doesn’t care about that at all, it cares more about “Okay, did you give charity? Do you speak badly about other people? Do you cheat others in business interactions?” All these things are, like, actual commandments in the Torah, things that you have to do that are kind to other people, but nobody cares if you “feel” like you’re a kind person or if you identify as that, and I think that the same thing is true of queerness. Like, there are specific laws, um, and there is like Leviticus 18:22, that’s the famous sentence that says-

MIKE JOHNSON

Clobber verse, yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah, the classic sentence about a man not lying with another man. There’s also a sentence about men not wearing women’s clothing, and then there’s another one about, like, not changing your body, right? So those last two sort of apply to trans and nonbinary conversations, but- So- And those three things are very specific to the actions that people do, and not about identities. So, as we know, a person can be trans-identifying and not change anything about their bodies or dress in any different way, and it’s their identity, it doesn’t have anything necessarily to do with their expression. I think the same thing is true of gay identity – or any sexual orientation – where… There is no word really for identity in the Jewish law, it’s just like, “Do you do this thing, or you don’t do this thing?” and so I think, like, this sentence specifically doesn’t talk about women, it doesn’t talk about people who are asexual- Like, there are so many different identities that are part of our community that are not at all mentioned, and even if there is an action that’s associated with an identity it’s not- it doesn’t necessarily apply, or it does apply and also there are tons of rules about sex for straight people that nobody checks in on them about, [Mike and Kyle chuckle] and yet they’re still like fully part of the community in every way possible. So I think that- Yeah, it is interesting, the identity versus what I would call like “description” or “behavior”.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. It’s interesting that- I think of that in Christianity as people using certain lines from the Bible and being like, “No, this is wrong,” and then it’s like… okay, how many other things are you taking literally to that degree? Like, I think queer people get treated unfairly with some of those verses, and it sounds like you’re saying there’s a similar thing going on, like some of these verses may be used unfairly and disproportionately for queer people, and they may not use other verses in a similar, literal manner.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, yeah, and I think even beyond that. Like, I, a cis women who- Like, I’m not included in that Leviticus sentence, and I’m treated as if I am, and that makes me really mad because then it’s like, I might as well have been in there. But the fact that you treat me like I am, it’s like this type of erasure that really is quite offensive. And yeah, I think- I think that it- Yes, totally what you’re saying.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. I mean, the whole Judeo-Christian world seems super interested in, like, penises and what they’re doing, and that’s like- [chuckles] that’s the focus, for whatever reason. You mentioned being a cis woman, can you talk a little bit about your background, your identity, where you come from, how you ended up at JQY?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, totally. Yeah. So I grew up in Fairfield, Connecticut in a tiny Orthodox community that actually doesn’t exist anymore, but-

MIKE JOHNSON  

Wait, hold on. Wait. It doesn’t- The town doesn’t exist anymore?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Sorry, the town exists. The Orthodox community there does not exist anymore.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, okay.

RACHAEL FRIED

Apologies.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, no worries. [Mike and Rachael chuckle]

RACHAEL FRIED

So, yeah, I went to like a tiny, private Jewish day school. There were like 10 kids in my grade.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah. For high school, I went to Central/Yeshiva University High School for Girls which is in Queens, New York, so I boarded at somebody’s house in Queens to go there. In general, I am very much a part of the Yeshiva University world. So, Yeshiva University is like- is the flagship Modern Orthodox institution in the U.S. I also went to college there. It’s kind of like Brigham Young is to the Mormon community, as YU is to the Orthodox Jewish community. So, I went to actually YU for 12 years, from high school all the way through grad school. I studied in Israel for a year and a half after high school, and basically was really a part of this, like, Modern Orthodox world in – I would say – like the New York area.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm.

RACHAEL FRIED

The first time that I realized that I was probably gay was when I was in my second year in Israel and my teacher- somebody asked my teacher “Rabbi, what do we do when somebody’s gay?” and in that moment I kind of knew that that question applied to me more than it did to other people in the room, but I didn’t fully- wasn’t like a- wasn’t at like, a conscious level yet fully, but I kind of knew, deep down. And the rabbi’s answer was – and I’ll use the Hebrew word for us, but he said – “We have rachmones on them,” which means like, “We pity them,” and I decided in that moment, like, “That’s not me. I’m never gonna be that pitied person,” and so I kind of just, for many, many years was like “That isn’t- I’m not part of that group, that pitied group,” and so for many years I kind of just brushed it under the rug, which obviously didn’t work super well. And then, you know, sort of fast forward to my college years, towards the end of my time at Stern College, which is the Yeshiva University High School up- Sorry, Yeshiva University Stern College for Women. I sort of could no longer- I could no longer, like, keep this that part of me under the rug anymore, and so I sort of came out to somebody, and then it was, like, terrifying, and then it was- It was at a time where most people that I knew had- didn’t know any gay people specifically. There weren’t like, queer characters on TV like there are now, so there weren’t even like fake- Maybe there was Will and Grace at the time, but there- Or maybe, you know, Ross’s ex-wife from Friends, but there weren’t- and she was kind of this like, weird side character that- I think that people just didn’t know how to respond, and it was not their fault, but they didn’t know how to respond, and also it crushed me every time. I also- I was the president of Student Council, so I was like, super involved in community on campus, and also had this feeling of, you know, if I actually told these people who I really was then they would not accept me, or like I wouldn’t be able to be this person in the community. So, I tried really hard to not be gay. I like- I went on what’s called “shidduch dates” which is like being- it’s kind of like blind dating, like a friend will match you, or, a friend or a someone who’s sort of like professionally is a matchmaker, will match you up with somebody of the opposite gender, and you’ll go on dates with them, and after a few dates you have to sort of decide if you want to be more serious and sort of get rid of the matchmaker part of the conversation. So I went on a bunch of dates with many different men, all of whom were – or, most of whom were – really lovely people. They fit all of the criteria that I had on my piece of paper, of like, “I want a boy who is…” I don’t know, X, Y, and Z, whatever was on my list, [Mike laughs] and they would check off all the boxes and be- and they were lovely people, and I would come back and just like, really hate myself after because I knew that it was something that was like, quote unquote, “wrong with me” and not them, and it wasn’t that I just like, wasn’t meeting the right person, it was something else. So I really struggled for a long time. My coming out process was years and years long, it was not one of those- I was not one of those people where I like realized I was gay and then within a few weeks told everybody and was out. Like, I was like- I was out to one person, and then I went back into the closet, and then I came out to this person… And so, I got involved in JQY actually originally as a participant. So, JQY used to be focused much more on young adults, and it was sort of like a peer-led support group once a month in the JCC in Manhattan. And so I went to a support group, and found that I was like one of two cis women in the room- one of two non-cis-men in the room, right? So, it was like 40 cis dudes, and me and one other person, and I was just like “It can’t be the case that I mustered up the courage to come to this place that is both queer and Orthodox, and I still feel like it’s not a place for me, or like I don’t belong here.” And so I got involved pretty quickly as a volunteer, and I started what was at the time called JQY Women’s* Programming, “Woman’s*” with an asterisk and a whole sentence explaining what that meant. And then I kind of just- Like, my role snowballed very much, very quickly. I’m a graphic designer and an artist at heart, so I was like “Alright, this website looks like it’s from the 90s, so we got to do- We’ve got to redo the website, and the logo, and- Okay, we need to make this look more official.” And so, that’s kind of how I got involved, like first a participant, and then a volunteer, and then just a really fancy volunteer, and then I was like “I’m gonna make this my job.” So, I did freelance graphic design on the side to pay my rent, but I really worked hard to make it so that JQY was an organization that really deserved to be- it deserved to be bigger. The community needed more support than it was getting, and so that’s sort of how I got involved. I was never officially hired, I kind of just took it. [all chuckle] And um- And yeah, now we’re- Our budget is $1.5 million dollars, we have seven full time staff, and still growing rapidly.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow, that’s amazing. That’s- I mean, we talked about the layers of like… you come out, and then you still might not be accepted by the queer community, and then you even went to the next step to be involved in a queer Jewish community, and you’re like “Wait, I still-“ Like, that must- That seem- That feels frustrating to me even hearing that, that you, like, you didn’t-

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

How did you create your space? And then- Now you’re the executive director, so what you’re doing is working. How did you create your own space?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. I mean, I always thought of it as, like, me creating the resources that I didn’t get to have when I was younger but needed anyway, and me sort of being the role model that I needed to have, that I didn’t really see anybody like me when I was younger and I really needed to. So that’s kind of the way that I looked at it. The other side of that, like, I could have looked, and sometimes I do feel bad, where it’s like, “I wish I had that,” and it’s annoying to me that I didn’t have somebody before me who did this instead of me. And also, it’s really cool that people get to have this now, and I only got to be this person because there were people before me who made the space so that I could then make this space. So I- I always think about, you know, sort of the generation- the giants whose shoulders we stand on – right? – and the- Like, I’m not the founder of JQY. I consider myself a builder, but not the founder. But my colleague, whose name is Mordechai Levovitz, he founded- he started JQY in 2001, so the first JQY meeting, and it’s only because he started JQY, which was then mostly cis men, that I got to step in and say, “Okay, well, you did this but I’m gonna take it further,” and, you know, people- hopefully people – and people really are doing this – come after me and after the other people who come after me, and say like “Okay, now that you did this, I’m going to champion X, Y and Z” because it’s sort of like almost a privilege to be able to have this conversation, because the people before me set it up so that I could do that. I think about this a lot. I don’t know if you’re gonna appreciate this analogy or not, and it’s maybe a little controversial, but I think about this in terms of corporate pride. So, when I was growing up in New York, in like… New York- When I went to college in New York there were no- like, during Pride Month there were no rainbows everywhere, it was just like a regular month and sort of like watched more and more rainbows pop up every June, and now my office is in Times Square, and when I go into Times Square every June there’s like rainbows everywhere and I kind of love it. And I’m like, this is amazing that there are all these businesses – you know – that are putting up their flags of support, and whatever else they’re doing. And then there’s the people who say, like, “They’re using our celebration in order to, you know, to profit on us, and they don’t really mean it,” and I kind of feel like… you’re lucky that you get to say that, because you didn’t have the rainbows- because it’s- to you it’s obvious that there would be rainbows, and now you can fight against it, whereas, for me, I kind of just like love that there were rainbows and didn’t even really care why. So I think- I don’t know if it’s a perfect analogy, but I think about it a lot in that in that way, and I still- I appreciate when businesses do much more than just put a rainbow in their window, and I also love seeing rainbows everywhere in June.

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Yeah, I definitely get that. And also, I think the, like, you know- Yeah, what is the root underlying goal? Is it our community? You know, we know that they’re there to make money, so I think what’s the most important is people like you working in organizations. Like, the goal, the root goal, is to support Jewish queer youth. Like, that- You don’t have any deeper- You know, it’s not about money, it’s about the actual support. So I think those foundational kind of groups are so important.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, thank you. Yeah. It’s a difficult- You know, we don’t charge any money to any of our participants. I think, um- We have a full time psychologist who does free sessions with queer Jewish youth, and we just- You know, most of our participants are not out to their parents, and so even if they have health insurance, or even if their parents- their parents could be the wealthiest people in the world, and it won’t matter because they don’t have access to any of those funds, or any access to transportation to sneak out of their house to come to our programming. So, a lot of organizations sort of fundraise through like the parents of their participants, or communities that- and we just don’t have that. So it’s um, definitely- I forgot exactly how we got here, but anyways, it’s noteworthy.

MIKE JOHNSON  

No, but I’m super interested: where does all that money come from? Like, somebody’s bankrolling this. What does that- What does that look like?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Somebody is, yeah. We- There are a few different foundations that we get funding from. So, specifically, there are Jewish institutions and funders that fund most of our budget, I would say. We also have many community members, who are alumni of JQY, who contribute as they can. Sometimes it’s more, sometimes less. But it could be- You know, we have people who give $3 a month to JQY, and a ton of our budget comes from many, many people giving very small amounts of money, which is really- I think it’s a cool thing that we have that. But it’s also interesting, like, it wasn’t always popular even for the more liberal foundations or funders to fund queer initiatives, in the Jewish world, I think because the donors tend to be people who are older and more traditional, and so even, like, five or six years ago, it was kind of taboo to be supporting an organization like JQY, and, you know, as time goes on now, it’s less and less controversial. And in fact there are there are a lot of different studies that show that COVID had a very negative impact on the mental health of queer youth specifically, and there’s actually a Jewish community COVID impact study that says that that also applies to Jewish youth, which is not surprising that, you know, these statistics apply in all different kinds of communities. So there’s now this kind of movement of like “Okay, we know that this population is struggling more than others,” and so there’s actually more of a proactive push now to fund places like JQY, which I’m- I’m not grateful that COVID had such a harsh impact on this population, and I am grateful that it enabled us to get more support- more funding to be able to support more people.

KYLE GETZ  

I mean, on the other side of the coin, there seems to be this big push, especially in not real protection but people thinking they’re protecting young people. Like, young queer people seem to be really a source of, unfortunately, debate and attack in the U.S. I’m curious: do you get any- And you’re working with people that are particularly anti-LGBT. Like, do you get any pushback, or challenges, or people… like, because you’re working with youth?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yes, totally.

KYLE GETZ  

And what does that look like, then? How does that come through to you?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, there’s a lot of complicated parts to that. I will say, our target age range is 13 to 23 so some of our participants are minors, so that’s its own complicated, uh- just really complicated space. And in New York City there are laws that protect queer minors. They are allowed- You are allowed to treat minors, in New York City, if they would feel unsafe coming out- uh, talking to a parent about whatever that thing is, and there are a few things that fall under that category, but queerness is one of them, in New York City. That kind of thing is different in every state, so we’re actually working with lawyers to, you know, make official policies, and that’s a- it’s a pretty complicated thing. There’s also… I believe it’s the LGBT Center in New York, that has sort of like an open door policy. Like “We are here, and our doors are open, and if you-” you know, “However you get here, we don’t ask, but we’re just here when you do come,” so that, I think, is also sort of like a loophole. But yeah, there is a lot of conversation around “Well, these people are really young,” “How do you know?” “You’re, uh- You’re poisoning their minds. You’re making them this way and influencing them.”

MIKE JOHNSON

“Groomers!” [chuckles]

RACHAEL FRIED

Yeah, yeah. All that. It’s particularly noteworthy- I don’t know if you’re following this, but there’s a big lawsuit going on right now with Yeshiva University versus many of the queer students at Yeshiva University.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Didn’t they just, like, shut down all student organizations just…?

RACHAEL FRIED  

They did, yeah. There’s a whole… whole thing going on with it. Right, the students, they sued for discrimination because they weren’t allowed to have a club, and the students won in the first court and the second court in New York, and now YU just appeal to the third court. And if the students win in the third court, which the assumption is that they will, it then goes to the Supreme Court of the United States. So there’s like a big- It’s a big topic of conversation now in the Orthodox community, more than it has been before, because YU has really- I guess this is the- This is the hill they’re willing to die on, apparently, much more than I had thought it would be. And um, I think it’s brought out interesting things in the Orthodox community. There are a lot of people, who probably wouldn’t call themselves allies, but are just kind of like “Why doesn’t YU just let them have their pizza? Like, they’re just trying to gather and have like a book club and a movie night with pizza,”-type of thing, and it’s sort of bringing out a little- People that maybe wouldn’t have thought about this issue as much beforehand are now sort of forced to think about it in a different way, and some people, who probably never would have supported the queer youth at Yeshiva University, are kind of just like, “Why should- Why would this be the thing that they bring to SCOTUS? It seems like, really dramatic.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. It’s super interesting that this is the hill that they will die on, I think is fascinating. But I imagine there’s got to be- The world is changing so quickly, there’s got to be a lot of sort of existential dread in communities that are, you know, not on the same path as everybody else. We talk about all the time, like, the right wing in this country is freaking out because they know that the world is changing, and it makes them uncomfortable.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, I think it’s really threatening to groups that value certain- or not even value- that are like so used to certain traditional things. And in Orthodoxy, as I said before, everything is so gendered. So there are laws about like, men cannot touch women that they’re not married or related to, and the whole system is threatened once you have somebody who presents in a more masculine way but identifies as a woman, and who are they allowed to touch versus not touch? Or like, the rules are about attraction, and so if you’re not attracted to the gender that you’re not supposed to touch, doesn’t matter if you touch them? Like, there’s all kinds of things. There’s separate seating in prayer spaces, and just a lot of things that are threatened, I think, by acknowledging that LGBTQ individuals are… real, [all chuckle] and like can be celebrated and wonderful people with happy things in their lives. I think that really threatens the system much more than people are willing to admit.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other big thing- There seems to be growing both anti-trans and anti-gender non-conforming kind of pushback and antisemitism that seems to be connected. Like, you see these at, you know, drag race protests. There are also people who are, like, neo-Nazis. These two things seem to be happening, at least to me, in tandem, and I’m curious what you see on your side with the kids that are affected or just with the organization.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah. There is a rise in queerphobia and antisemitism in the U.S. right now, and so we’re super aware of that at JQY and are constantly figuring out ways to be safe and secure, and also make sure that we are the most welcoming place possible to people who need us, so that- It’s a really complicated line to balance. Like, how do we make somebody feel like so welcome when they arrive, and also have security at the same time to keep people safe? And so- And what does that look like? And how- And so that’s definitely part of the conversation now. There is definitely a rise in antisemitism on college campuses, which is a big point of um- a big conversation topic at JQY. And I think that- What’s really interesting, and not to get so political here- And I will- I’ll also say, JQY is- We have no- We always say that support is not contingent upon belief, so we take no political stances on things and we really just support everybody in whatever beliefs they have. There’s that Jewish concept called “Eilu v’Eilu”, which means “both these and those”, and it means that there can be simultaneous, conflicting truths that are true at the same time, and that’s kind of like our philosophy that we live by. So, without taking any political stances – I’m getting too into this – Israel is a really hot topic in the- on college campuses, and, I also would say, in the queer community specifically. So this definitely- It comes up a lot. There is- The best example I can give is um, in New York every year – it’s usually at the end of May – there is a Celebrate Israel Parade, which is like the gathering place for Orthodox institutions. It’s like, you know, all the entire I think Fifth Avenue is closed off, and is a parade that has floats and music, and when I was growing up it was like, I was excited to go to the parade, because it was everybody that I knew from camp and every school ever went to, and it was basically like a big reunion day, and that was the- that was the reason I was excited to go, not because I had any feeling about Israel necessarily at the time, or if I did that was totally secondary. So, there was a time where queer groups were not allowed to march in the Israel Parade, which was like 10 years ago, not that long ago, and JQY was instrumental in getting queer groups to be able to march in the parade – right? – with a banner that says “The LGBTQ Community”, and many people found out about JQY, and then ended up using our resources, because they saw us at the Israel parade specifically. So it’s a really, really good advertising opportunity, because it’s where the entire Orthodox community is on that one Sunday towards the summer. And we- So, we march in that parade. We tell- We have a, you know, “This is where you can meet us if you want to march with us.” We also tell people, “This is where you can go if you would like to safely protest the parade,” and you can go there and be part of JQY, you can be in the parade and part of JQY, and all of those things are, you know, equally celebrated and supported. And um, also, in the group that that protests the parade, there are some right-wing Jewish protesters who have super homophobic and transphobic signs that are really, really harmful and just really negative, and a few years ago the- there is a group that is an anti-Zionist group that is called JVP, which stands for Jewish Voices for Peace, who infiltrated our group specifically, because they were protesting the fact that there was a queer group marching in Israel parade, because queer people should be- because of all the reason- Like, they didn’t protest the parade in general, they protested specifically the JQY group in the parade. And they, you know, they marched with us, pretending that they were part of the group, and then they, at some point, took off their shirts and had – you know, underneath it – had their own shirts on, and formed a human chain, and got arrested in front of our kids, and it was a whole big to-do, and also really terrifying.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

And it was this interesting- Like, we’re protested by both the left and the right in the same parade…

MIKE JOHNSON

[chuckles] Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

Which is really fascinating. Like, it just is like- And it’s like, there’s a different expectation of us because we’re queer and Jewish, and we also weren’t- Like, so we weren’t allowed to be in the parade, and when we finally were allowed to be in the parade then it’s a protest of like “How could you be in this parade?” So there’s all kinds of- We just have it from all sides, I would say. And I think- I’d like to think that if everybody is mad at us that means we’re doing something right. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] But it’s- Yeah, it’s definitely complicated.

KYLE GETZ  

Wow. I- That’s- They went undercover. Like, that is some deep planning undercover shit. That’s terrify- That sounds so scary!

RACHAEL FRIED  

It really is, yeah. I was, uh- Yeah. A lot of our kids ended up, like, running, and it was- it was a really, um- Yeah, it was quite scary. And yes, it was obviously thought through and planned. Also, we’re a youth group, which is just, like… target someone else who’s not as vulnerable.

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

That’s really what it was more about, for me.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

Like, pick on somebody that’s your own age, or- Also, marching down this- If you can imagine, like, it’s the epitome of coming out to the entire community. Like, marching, wearing a rainbow on your shirt through 1000s of people who you went- who were part of your synagogue, and your camp, and your school, and your elementary school… it’s just, like, it’s already so courageous for somebody to even just put on that shirt and walk down the street, and then to be protested was so, um- So- It was just like, really terrible. And then there’s the fact that it’s a big Jewish gathering, so the amount of security, because it’s a target in and of itself to have a huge parade full of 1000s of Jewish people in one area in New York City together… So there’s a lot of, um- a lot of- just a lot of targets.

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

And then- Sorry, just to add one more thing to that, there’s also a whole big thing about having a Jewish star on a pride flag, because the Jewish star looks too much like a flag of Israel. Which, there- Yes, there is a Jewish star on the Israeli flag, and also it is a star that represents the religion and not necessarily country. This is like-

MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

RACHAEL FRIED

-again, getting a little political. But there is a lot of talk about banning the Jewish star from Pride parades and from Pride gatherings, and that is also problematic in a whole different way.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Huh.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah. Any last words of wisdom for us? Things that people should know?

RACHAEL FRIED  

I will just say… I think it’s important to note – I just wanna, you know, bring this home again – that there are many denominations of Judaism that are more accepting than the ones that I’m- that we talked about today. And, and, it’s also- You know, people will assume that JQY is so niche, and say “How could it be possible that you have an organization that works specifically with queer youth from these specific communities?” and it’s actually not that niche when you look at the numbers. So, I think it’s really important to be aware that there are 1000s of Orthodox queer youth in- just in New York City, let alone the entire U.S. and the entire world, and I’m sure that there are- You know, interestingly, our youth can relate to many other queer youth of faith-based communities. And so, I think that these are people that we need to be thinking about much more than we are, and that it is- I believe that it is my responsibility and our responsibility as a community to be looking for those who are most vulnerable, who have really no voice and are falling through the cracks, and make sure that those people are supported. So, I’ll leave it at that, but just how important it is and how- I actually think that the more niche something is the more important it is, and the more likely that those people are being overlooked.

KYLE GETZ  

And- Well then I’ll also ask: if there is an Orthodox Jewish person who’s queer listening, like, what do you want them to know? What do you want these youth to know?

RACHAEL FRIED  

The main thing is just that you’re not alone. Like, I thought I was the only one like me, and so many people who come to JQY  think that they were the only ones like them in the whole world, and there is a whole community and it’s an awesome community, and a community that you can be proud to be part of, and that will welcome you with open arms when you’re ready. So, just to keep that in mind and know that.

KYLE GETZ

I love that.

MIKE JOHNSON  

I love that too. So, did we do it?

KYLE GETZ  

We did- We did some stuff!

MIKE JOHNSON  

We did some stuff!

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! No- I mean- I think we need to, like- These need to be ongoing, like, conversations and things, that I will now know and bring into future discussions whenever, you know, Judaism or, you know, things come up in the news, or what have you, so, you know, I think it was a great step, and I learned a lot, so…

MIKE JOHNSON  

Yeah! Awesome! So, should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s take a break!

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break.

KYLE GETZ

Break!

[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!

KYLE GETZ

Let’s do it.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back!

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back!

KYLE GETZ  

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON  

We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, Rachael Fried, where can people find out more about you, about JQY? Tell us all the things.

RACHAEL FRIED  

All the things. Alright. So, jqy.org is the first place I would start. We have a JQY app, so that can be found in the App Store and on Google Play, and that’s a really cool resource. It’s a global Jewish queer community and network. Um, we have virtual programming, we also have microgrants for any college student who’s doing any kind of Jewish queer event basically anywhere in the world, so check out our website if you’re interested in doing some kind of Jewish queer college event, and let us help you fund it. We- You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, we’re @jewishqueeryouth. And we have a really cool event coming up, which is, there’s the holiday of Purim coming up on March 6, and it’s kind of like Jewish Halloween. It’s, like, the holiday where you are supposed to dress up, and drink, and party, and eat. And so, it’s like- It’s an amazing holiday in general, but we have the most awesome queer Jewish- queer Purim party. It’s in New York City, so if you’re in the New York area check it out. If you’re not in New York area, follow us anyway, and hopefully, we’ll bring JQY- We’re working on national expansion, so uh, if you’re looking for JQY in your city, also feel free to reach out and let us know. But anyway, jqy.org. You’ll find everything there, and on social media @jewishqueeryouth.

KYLE GETZ

Awesome.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So awesome. Thank you. Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ

We are on social media @gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, especially if it’s for Momsplaining, which we’re gonna be recording here coming up soon. It’s 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah, leave a voicemail with your question for Ma Johnson.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON  

And our physical mailing addresses Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109. Uh, really, really quickly, just reminding everybody that we are going to be at the Treefort Music Festival in Boise, Idaho. That’s coming up at the end of March, which I’m only harassing you about it now in case you need to get your travel plans. But that will be Friday, March the 24th.

KYLE GETZ  

And it’s an amazing, like, festival. There’s music, there’s drag, there’s comedy, there’s tons of other things to go to, so it’d be worth making a little trip to if you want to see us and other stuff.

MIKE JOHNSON

You ready to do our Gayest & Straightest?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’ll go first.

KYLE GETZ

Great.

MIKE JOHNSON  

So the, uh- I went to a fraternity conference. I was in Chicago all weekend, at a fraternity conference, and the gayest thing about me is that I just assumed everyone was gay. Like, if they were- Even if they were a little bit gay, I just presumed that they were gay, and my gaydar was so wrong. [Kyle laughs, Rachael chuckles] It was so, so, so, so wrong. There were several of the fraternity brothers that I just was certain, and then they would show me pictures of their wives or their fiancées. I, like- Oh, I need to- I need to recalibrate or somethin’. Anyway. But just, the presumption that like, everybody that I thought was even a little bit gay I just was like “Oh, gay, family! Here we go!”

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Uh, the straightest thing about me: at that conference, with a couple of straight bros, I had a full on conversation about Climate Pledge Arena, and that the Seattle Kraken plays there, and that the Seattle SuperSonics used to play there before they moved to Oklahoma City, and hopefully we get a basketball team back soon- It was- Oh my god, who was I? All the sportsball.

KYLE GETZ  

I stopped- Do I go now? I stopped listening when you mentioned some kind of arena.

MIKE JOHNSON

I know. I know! Yeah, I should have too. [all laugh] How about you, Kyle?

KYLE GETZ

Um, my gayest is: I went to the dentist, and I was in the waiting room, and I opened up Twitter, and boy was there porn on it. [Mike laughs] And I was like, “Eugh!” Like, I don’t follow porn accounts. It’s that y’all dirty fuckers like porn stuff, and then it shows up on my feed.

MIKE JOHNSON

Mhm. Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

That’s fine. I support all of that, [Mike chuckles] but I was just like “Oh, I can’t open Twitter at the dentist’s office.” Um, my straightest is: on the way over here I ran out of creamer. Usually put in ole vanilla, or lately hazelnut creamer. I was out of creamer so I just had some black coffee.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nice.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Nice.

KYLE GETZ

Like a man. Like a dude!

MIKE JOHNSON

It’ll put hair on your chest, as my dad used to say.

KYLE GETZ

God, I hate it- I always hate it whenever- I have an uncle that said that, I was like, “I don’t want that.” [chuckles] How do I opt-out of that? [Mike laughs] Uh, Rachael, what about your Gayest & Straightest?

RACHAEL FRIED  

Alright. My gayest: I ended up playing a board game, Settlers of Catan, with three friends until like 3 in the morning, and we ended up sharing our coming- revisiting our coming out stories over wine and a board game for like hours and hours, which felt pretty good to me.

KYLE GETZ

YYess.

MIKE JOHNSON

Very nice.

RACHAEL FRIED

Um, and the other gayest thing I did this week was spend an exorbitant amount of time trying to figure out the straightest thing I did this this week, [Mike and Kyle laugh] which, I gotta say, is really difficult. I dunno if this is so straight or not, but I did the New York Times crossword puzzle every day this week.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

RACHAEL FRIED

I feel like- Huh. It’s kinda gay also. I don’t know. But it’s what I got. [chuckles]

MIKE JOHNSON  

No I- I get it, though. Like, I think queer people have better shit to do. [Mike and Rachael chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

[laughs] Well, I just think of-

RACHAEL FRIED  

It was on the commute, if that helps. I was just sitting on a train anyway.

KYLE GETZ  

I just think of someone, like, at the breakfast table opening up the paper, and it’s just like “I’m livin’ my normal straight life-” I could very much see that as a straight thing.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Yeah, I was- I don’t- I don’t know. It came across as a little straight to me, so I’ll share it.

KYLE GETZ  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, Rachael Fried, thank you so, so, so, much for being here and talking with us today. Really, really appreciate it.

RACHAEL FRIED  

Thank you for having me.

KYLE GETZ  

Other people are our Super Gap Bridgers! Thank you so much for your support Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura…

MIKE JOHNSON

Hey!

KYLE GETZ

Welcome. Uh… DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.

MIKE JOHNSON  

Well, that’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ  

I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.

MIKE JOHNSON

See you next week.

KYLE GETZ

See you next week. [Mike chuckles]

[Outro music plays, instrumental]

KYLE GETZ

I just had the thought, “This is Goyish.”

MIKE JOHNSON  

“This is Goyish”!? [all chuckle]

KYLE GETZ  

I don’t know if we’re- I don’t know if we’re supposed to use that word or not, but-

RACHAEL FRIED  

You can, you can. I actually- A few people thought that “Gayish” was a combination between “gay” and “Jewish”, and so it kind of sounds like a Jewish queer podcast.

KYLE GETZ

Wow. Oh no! [chuckles]

RACHAEL FRIED

I had to explain, it’s not a Jewish podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Well-

KYLE GETZ

No. Well, for this one episode it is, a bit.

RACHAEL FRIED

But “Goyish” is better actually. It’s good.

KYLE GETZ

“Goy-” [laughs] I really want someone to start that podcast now.

[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]