Mike and Kyle talk about ketamine’s use as an anesthetic, as a recreational drug, and as a treatment for depression. Plus, Azealia Banks?!
In this episode: News- 2:57 || Main Topic (Ketamine)- 19:00 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:10:15
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour go on pre-sale starting May 1 (except NYC, which is already in pre-sale). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, Mike talks about k-holes, plus loads more on ketamine we didn’t get to on the main episode. Join Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
MIKE JOHNSON
Before we start, this episode of Gayish features frank discussion about illegal drug use. If that is something you’d prefer not to hear, or if there’s any possibility that will be a trigger for you in any way, we suggest you please skip this week’s episode. If you or anyone you know is struggling with drugs or alcohol, there are addiction and recovery resources listed on our website at gayishpodcast.com/help. And now, enjoy Gayish.
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The first direct-to-VHS podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] God. I would take that!
KYLE GETZ
Starring Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god.
KYLE GETZ
…as Lil Shrievenrickle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you a Mary-Kate or an Ashley?
KYLE GETZ
Um, whichever one was in Weeds.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality, and today…
KYLE GETZ
Today…
MIKE JOHNSON
Whew. Whew, yeah, gonna talk about ketamine…
KYLE GETZ
Ketamine.
MIKE JOHNSON
…on the heels of Bestiality, which everyone loved. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
This was voted on by our Patreon Gap Bridgers though, so y’all wanted us to talk about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. And, again, the Gap Bridgers and everyone else voted very differently.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, everyone else in our tiebreaker vote voted on shame so we are going to do that for our bonus episode this month for Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure are.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Uh, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
…uh, a correction.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
This one comes from Mike… Royce? I’m gonna say “Royce”. Mike Royce. “Hi, Mike and Kyle. Just a minor correction regarding AI and cows,” which at first I thought was Chat GPT but, no, he means “artificial insemination”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Just a minor correction regarding AI in cows, although not sure if it makes it sound any better than shoving an arm up the vajayjay. The lubed plastic sleeve up to the shoulder is actually inserted into the rectum of the cow and used to grab and stabilize the cervix which lies just below the rectum, then a long pipette/breeding gun containing the bull semen is inserted into the vagina and through the cervix with the other hand. Learned how to do this in college. Good times. Happy Thursday! – Mike.” [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
“Breeding gun” is what I’m gonna call my dick from now on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Watch out, fellas, here comes the breeding gun! Open up your vaginas.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
I mean rectum.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- Yeah. Rectum? Damn near killed ‘em. I, um- I didn’t- I didn’t know. Like, I grew up around cows. I had no idea that that’s like- The whole time, I thought that they were like reachin’ right up in there and ticklin’ those ovaries, but no.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know we talked about it on the episode, so I didn’t [chuckle] even know there was a correction to be made.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I for sure- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I for sure talked about it.
KYLE GETZ
I mostly listened to you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [chuckles] And now the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckling] Speaking of listening to me…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah? I have to do that for a bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the first. Okay, we’re gonna talk about South Korea.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, for a long time, South Korea’s biggest annual LGBTQ pride celebration has been held in the same place in the middle of Seoul. And there’s performers and rainbow costu- like, everything you would expect out of a Pride festival.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, this year, the Seoul Queer Culture Festival has been turned away from the venue. And, instead, it’s going to be hosting a Christian Youth Concert. And, uh, the festival organizers are crying foul. They say that this is discrimination and-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Plus, you don’t want a cult there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [Kyle chuckles] Right. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
What’s the difference between religion and a cult? Time.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, what happened was the organizers for both the festival and the concert applied to use the plaza venue from June 30th to July 1st – this is according to the government of Seoul – and both groups were informed of this and offered to change dates. Like “Would you consider changing dates?”
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] “Do you want to change Pride?” [chuckles] Like, that’s not-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Right. And because neither of them said yes to changing dates, it went to a civic committee. So their- The government said “Okay, well, then this committee of people is gonna have to choose which one”…
KYLE GETZ
Uh-oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
…and they sided with the Christian concert. The civic committee prioritizes, quote, “events related to children or teenagers or those that have other value in the ‘public interest.’” So it’s- It gets worse. So it’s not like it’s a, like- I don’t know. It’s not like a Taylor Swift concert in disguise or something. This is Christian broadcaster CTS which vocally opposes homosexuality, vocally opposes Pride festivals in general, according to Reuters. So, they’re saying that the concert was specifically organized and specifically targeted that date to accomplish exactly what they accomplished, which was displacing Pride.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s fucked up. Especially, like, it’s- Like, the decision in and of itself is clear and direct homophobia, because it believes that religion is more important than, like, you know, gay kids feelin’ cool about themselves. And then you add to that the intentionality of this…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. And, I mean, things aren’t super-duper great in Korea anyway. Like, they’re- You know… Asia in general has sort of a long ways to go when it comes to LGBTQ stuff and policies, and Korea’s no exception. But uh, there are no comprehensive anti-discrimination laws, for instance, in South Korea. And, at least according to The Advocate, things are worse there for gay people than in Japan or Taiwan, um, in terms of acceptance. So, anyway, sorry about it, Korea.
KYLE GETZ
That really sucks. Especially when it’s, like, an event – you know, an annual event – that like they should just be given priority every year to be like first right of refusal or something, because it’s Pride. It’s fucking Pride.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fucking Pride.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that happens every year at the same time. Like, it’s always then.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I keep thinking about like the Pride parade here in Seattle, for how long now, has ended at the Space Needle at Seattle Center for PrideFest. Can you imagine, like, you just get so used to it…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…rolling in there on Sunday of Pride and here’s a [chuckles] bunch of fuckin’ Christians singing about Jesus hating gay people.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. It’d be like opposite world. [Mike laughs] We’re like “Wait, this is exact opposite of what we expect here.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ugh. Anyway- And just the whole, like, “It’s not us, it’s this random group of people that we picked from a whole pool of generally homophobic people,” [chuckles] right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, ugh. Just the “Sorry. It’s not us, it’s these people.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s just- I hate that.
KYLE GETZ
That sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That really sucks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, news the second. Before I do news the second, I wrote down here a thing that I just had a quick thought. And I’ve been having a lot of anxiety lately that, like, it’s uncomfortable for people to hear what’s going on in the news, and especially trans people because things are particularly fucked for them right now, and, like, is- is it okay to just, like, week after week after week, keep saying this like horrible shit that’s going on? But, um- And then I keep thinking about this thing that happened at work last week that I’m gonna talk about more later, I think. But, uh, we had a team in my org that launched this whole thing based around “Which Harry Potter house are you a member of?” and I, like, I lost my shit. I talked about it in the happy hour. I, like, lost my shit and they pulled it down, and they stopped doing this thing and issued this big apology, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the person that was behind that is actually the head of our LGBT group in Israel, which is where the team is based. So it made me realize that, like, I don’t know- I don’t know if he’s an ally or a member of the community but, either way, he’s heading the queer resource group in that country and doesn’t know better, had never heard of JK Rowling being transphobic, had no idea that Harry Potter could be triggering for trans people and that it is inappropriate in a work context. Anyway, so I- I keep thinking about that and how, like, we’re sort of in a bubble, and I don’t know if everybody even fucking knows what’s going on. And the need to let people know overrides whatever potential discomfort there is in having to hear how fucked up shit is another week in a row.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Well, I mean, especially, like, our audience is a lot of people that are similar to us because that’s just naturally who, like, listens to shows, is people that feel like you can relate to. So I think, amongst our audience as well, like, it’s helpful to keep people up to date on what’s going on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Okay. Alright. Well, um-
KYLE GETZ
And you also bring in positive trans stories as well. So you- It’s not that it’s only the doom and gloom. There’s also good things that happen in the trans world, in the trans community, in the LGBT community, and I think you bring in both news stories from time to time. So-
MIKE JOHNSON
But, man, some weeks is fuckin’ hard. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Some weeks- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which makes sense. Like, and- Like, there’s something about, like, you don’t want to, like, just pretend like “Oh, let me give equal – you know – time to good and bad,” like, because that’s not- that would feel just wrong to try to pretend like it’s equally good and bad out there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But there’s like a little bit of “You gotta give ‘em hope,” you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know, I think you do a good job balancing, and this is what the news segment is. And you can kind of expect that, so…
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and you do a good job of putting in the timestamps. In the description of every episode there’s timestamps and if, like- If you find news is just triggering, or too depressing, or you just, like-
KYLE GETZ
Or you’re listening to back episodes and you don’t need to hear what happened in like August of 2021. Like, I don’t know. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, yeah. Skip forward. Just skip forward.
KYLE GETZ
Just skip to the main topic, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, so, news the second. So, there is the Church at Ponce & Highland in Georgia – it’s an Atlanta – which is, in general, is an LGBTQ-supportive church. They changed their reader board sign outside the church to say “GOD LOVES TRANS KIDS”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Cool, except that-
KYLE GETZ
Uh-oh. Except for what’s gonna happen next.
MIKE JOHNSON
-when people showed up for church on Sunday morning, somebody had spray painted-out “God” and substituted “PEDOS”. So it said “PEDOS LOVES TRANS KIDS”, which, that’s not even grammatically correct, you fuckin’ dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Gotcha! [both chuckle] Grammar. Technicality.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but yeah, TV station WAGA reported that the sign was defaced. Reverend Mimi Walker, who’s the senior pastor, told the station, quote, it’s “Sad that this is a part of the conversation in our culture that people feel the need to react with such ugly messages,” “It’s offensive.” “We believe god loves all people,” “In particular, God loves the LGBTQ community and trans community who are not seeing that love in all places in our culture.” So the church, you know, they band together and they went and fixed the sign and reported the matter to police. This is the first time that they’ve had their sign vandalized, even though they have posted pro-gay messaging before, pro-LGBTQ messaging before. They have had their pride flag stolen several years… Um-
KYLE GETZ
Maybe it’s just a kid who needed a pride flag.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, maybe.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks church. Free pride flag! Ooo! [both chuckle] Yoink!
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s kind of a good idea, to hand out pride flags.
KYLE GETZ
Right? Yeah, just a free- [chuckles] “Hey, they’re waving a free pride flag for me.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, but she said, quote, “We’ll continue to keep putting out our message of love for all people. That power that we have is to keep putting out the positive messages that here is a safe [space]-” “place” “…here is a safe place,” “We are going to stay true to our commitment to care for those around us. There are people in communities who support them and love them and know that god loves them as well.” And we talk about religion a lot on the show and-
KYLE GETZ
Sorry. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, it is-
KYLE GETZ
…For my jokes about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not- It’s not all religions. There are- There are queer-affirming churches out there who are doing their best, and they are, I think, you know, in this very contentious friction point in culture. So I- I just want to catch a church winning.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, even though this shitty thing happened to them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. The religious people that I respect are the ones that, I think, say that like “If you’re not getting any kind of discomfort or pushback, then you’re not pushing the message of God’s love and what that means hard enough.” Like, if everyone’s just kind of like “Sure, okay,” then you’re doing whatever the easy version of… you know, God and what he actually meant. You know, when he said “Love everyone,” he didn’t give a little asterisk and say “except LGBT kids,” or “except trans kids.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
He just said “everyone.” So, like, I respect the people that are trying to put the real message of what God meant out there and… and then take the flack for it and do- and then, when that comes up, then keep pushing it and not let up. So, I res- I very much respect that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Good. Good. Me too, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re on the same page.
KYLE GETZ
Yay, religion!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yay, religion! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Wow, 180! We love religion! It’s only good, always.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] …Well, I don’t know. [both chuckle] Uh, news the last. So, known bisexual actress Drew Barrymore has announced that she’s-
KYLE GETZ
She’s bisexual!?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s what The Advocate says.
KYLE GETZ
Not known t- Advocate?! You make assumptions of me. I did not known that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Cool!
MIKE JOHNSON
But she’s no longer going to be hosting the MTV Movie & TV Awards on Sunday night because she is, uh- she’s stepping down in solidarity with writers who are on strike.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
She had an interview in Variety and she said, quote, “I have listened to the writers, and in order to truly respect them, I will pivot from hosting the MTV Movie & TV Awards live in solidarity with the strike,” “Everything we celebrate and honor about movies and television is born out of their creation. And until a solution is reached, I am choosing to wait but I’ll be watching from home and hope you will join me.” And then you already- You reacted the way that I reacted: “Drew Barrymore’s bisexual?” [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Wow. I know. And- Well, I mean, the fact that Advocate says “known”, like, clearly this isn’t a brand new revelation or anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] She also hosts The Drew Barrymore Show, [laughing] which, did you know that, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
So much I’m learning about Drew Barry- What else about Drew Barrymore, Mike? She’s a Capricorn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um-
KYLE GETZ
She loves… daffodils.
MIKE JOHNSON
…I have nothin’.
KYLE GETZ
That’s all there is to know about her. That’s fine.
MIKE JOHNSON
She- Well- What was that? She showed David Letterman her tits once.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
At least once.
KYLE GETZ
At least once. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
On national television.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, but who- who among us hasn’t, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
She did say that she’s still on good terms with MTV, that she will be back for the 2024 Movie & TV Awards, assuming that they want to have her. She said, quote, “I thank MTV, who has truly been some of the best partners I have ever worked with. And I can’t wait to be a part of this next year, when I can truly celebrate everything that MTV has created, which is a show that allows fans to choose who the awards go to and is truly inclusive.” So, Drew Barrymore. She-
KYLE GETZ
Bisexual. Just killin’ it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bisexual. So we’re doing our part, the opposite of bi erasure.
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
She’s bi bi bi bi bi bi bi bi. Bi bi bi! Anyway-
KYLE GETZ
What just happened to you right then? [both chuckle] Were you doing NSYNC or a different thing that I didn’t understand?
MIKE JOHNSON
All of them.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, great!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I have- [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
You sounded like a clip of every time NSYNC said “bye”, but done yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah. I-
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was magical.
KYLE GETZ
Speaking of magical things…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
…I want to thank the following Patreon members.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks!
KYLE GETZ
Thank you to- Thanks! [Mike chuckles] Later. Uh, thank you to Brian M. …I’m going to take a swing and say “Mor…neilten”. Morneilten!
MIKE JOHNSON
Morneilten!
KYLE GETZ
I’m takin- Man, if I get that right…
MIKE JOHNSON
Of the Cleveland Morneiltens?
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Oh, yes. North Cleveland, obvi. [Mike chuckles] Uh, Vegard? Vaygard? Veegard?
MIKE JOHNSON
Vegard.
KYLE GETZ
Vegard. That sounds like the leader of a cult if I’ve ever seen one. Um, Ember Keeler. Ooo, I love that one.
MIKE JOHNSON
I like that.
KYLE GETZ
That rolls off the- Hey, Ember.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Ember Keeler”, that sounds like maybe a drag queen’s name?
KYLE GETZ
Oh! That would be a good drag name. Um, and… mynameisnotric. [Mike chuckles] All one word. mynameisnotric.
MIKE JOHNSON
Another “Wehadababyitsaboy”.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. Thank you, ric. Fuck! Dammit! The one-
MIKE JOHNSON
Not ric.
KYLE GETZ
The one thing!
MIKE JOHNSON
Not ric!
KYLE GETZ
Damn, fuck! Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Thank you, not ric.
KYLE GETZ
Thank you, not ric. If you want to, join Patreon. You get bonus episodes, episodes a day early, no ads, and you can join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast. And, we are doing a new thing that is available to anyone, not just Patreon members, but it’s available on the Patreon site or in the Patreon app. It is this spotlight where we just recently interviewed Brad Shreve from the Queer We Are podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
He had a really personal and intimate interview that I really appreciated. And, before that, we had done an interview with Queers in Your Ears, another podcast. So, both of those are available publicly. You don’t have to join, you can just listen to our interviews of podcasts. And maybe we’ll do more of these where we interview other podcasts and learn about them and what they do, um, available to everyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely. We have some pretty great people in our lives now who we can interview and get some interesting stuff but, like, doesn’t make a whole episode or necessarily fit into something that we have on the schedule. So, this is a way for us to still, like, put that content out there and get them the spotlight.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s why we’re calling it “spotlight”, Kyle. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah. And I don’t know what- I don’t know. I think we’re in this weird spot where we are big enough that people notice us, but still a small- Like, it is still three people trying to run this entire thing. We’re not like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, some people are like “To the assistant’s assistant…” It’s like… no.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that’s not- Like, we’re j- So, we get a ton of requests for, you know, interviews and people that wanna- will do things. So this is another avenue to kind of get content out there.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] It’s funny when people write in, and then I write back, and then they write back and they say “I can’t believe you wrote me back!”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m like-
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
As opposed to, like… my army of secretaries?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both chuckle] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But yeah, join Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Join Patreon. You also get 50% off live show tickets, Patreon folks, so fuckin’ do that!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The code’s in the app.
KYLE GETZ
Or on the website.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Do you wanna…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about ketamine, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I’m nervous about this one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Are you? Can you say more about that?
KYLE GETZ
It’s- It’s just a really big issue right now in the queer community, and so it’s one that, like… if we fuck up, like, farmers… I don’t know. [chuckles] Like, it just feels like it’s a different- Which, I think we got some nice comments from actual gay farmers on that episode. I don’t know why that- But, like, if we fuck up a different thing, if we fuck up talking about like… I don’t know, whatever- If we fuck up talking about balls, like, it’s not, you know, gonna mess somethin’ up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Whereas-
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, I have a couple of those.
KYLE GETZ
Balls?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Kyle chuckles] So, like, I’m at least that way.
KYLE GETZ
You have the experi- Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s currently zero ketamine in my home, but I do have balls.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, you know.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t know. This one… I don’t know, feels a little bit heavier and more important to get right, so we’ll do our best.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’ll do our best. Well, I was gonna start with, like, “What the fuck is ketamine?”
KYLE GETZ
Sure!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Um, so, ketamine, if y’all don’t know, is a dissociative anesthetic. So, it was actually invented to put people out for surgery, like propofol which is also known as milk of amnesia. And they were- They were trying to find a way to make a different anesthetic which is phin- phenc- Fuck. …Phencyclidine, but also known as PCP which is the street drug “angel dust”. It was causing too many, like, complications. It was doing the job of, like, putting people under so that they could have surgery done on them but there were too many hallucinogenic effects to PCP and it wasn’t necessarily always safe. So they were tweaking that and that’s how they came up with ketamine. So, ketamine is just a couple of atoms different than PCP. So it’s the same class of drugs-
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
-does basically the same shit to your body. That’s- That’s the thing. So, it was… first synthesized in 1962 by Calvin Stevens. He was a professor of chemistry at Wayne State University and a consultant for a company called “Parke-Davis”. And they- He first started doing preclinical research in animals, and that’s how ketamine came to be used in a veterinary setting, which is gonna come up in a weird way later.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But uh, it works quite effectively on most mammals as a way to put them out. So horses, dogs, cats, it was being used by veterinarians. So we got a bunch of data that way, and then this is a thing that- This sentence, they just threw this sentence out there and, like, left it there. [Kyle chuckles] Uh, “ketamine was tested in human prisoners in 1964.” So-
KYLE GETZ
That feels… [Mike chuckles] like something that happened in the 60s. Like “Hey, prisoners, we don’t care about you! You don’t count,” like, “Let’s test shit on you.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
I- Clearly- I don’t know. I don’t know anything more than you do, but, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
I read a 2010 paper [Kyle gasps] from the Journal of Anesthesiology called “Taming the Ketamine Tiger” and it talked about how they- they did this. And, at least according to this, they say that they asked for volunteers. They got 20 volunteers, [chuckles] in prison, to take ketamine and monitor them and see how it worked out. So, like I don’t- I don’t know. Like-
KYLE GETZ
That feels- The power dynamic there-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah exactly! [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
-feel very odd. Like, okay, what? Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly right. Yeah. So, like, um-
KYLE GETZ
Or maybe they fuckin’ loved it. I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the thing: if you’re in prison… shit’s probably pretty boring.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, what would you do to spice up your day? [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I guess if someone was like “Hey, do you want to try drugs?” I- No… I- Yeah, I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Uh, so- But we got a lot of data about ketamine just out of that study asking for um, uh… volunteers. So then, uh… initially they were- they wanted to call ketamine anesthetic- people experiencing ketamine anesthesia, they wanted to use the verb “dreaming”. They were saying that that’s how they wanted to describe the state that it put people in. Um, but Parke-Davis, the company that was behind all of this stuff, did not approve of the name. And, uh, so, Mrs. Edward F. Domino, [TN: Mrs. Toni Domino] who was the wife of one of the pharmacologists, suggested “dissociative anesthesia” and that stuck. So, apparently, if you’re married to a pharmacologist you can just, like, throw shit out there and they’re like “Yeah, that sounds good.”
KYLE GETZ
Are you sure she’s not married to a pizza delivery company?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Right, yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
I’m skeptical of that. I thought you were gonna say “the wife of Mr. Domino”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Like “the wife of Fred Domino”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. Edward. Ed Domino, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Ed Domino. Um, so, after all of this stuff, then- Uh, yeah, “dissociative anesthesia” is the is the thing, and it is now classified as a “dissociative anesthetic” along with a bunch of other stuff.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a smart name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, so FDA approved it for use in humans for anesthetic purposes in 1970 and it was first rolled out by the government and given to American soldiers during Vietnam.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, some of the reason is, a lot of other substances that we used to put people under for surgery slow the heart rate down, lowers the blood pressure, and, depending on what else is going on for that person, that can be super dangerous.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it turns out that ketamine doesn’t do that.
KYLE GETZ
Doesn’t it do the opposite.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ketamine actually can make your heart rate and/or blood pressure go up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So it’s especially useful in like a field hospital trauma situation.
KYLE GETZ
Whew.
MIKE JOHNSON
And so they started using it on American soldiers during the Vietnam War and it went on from there. The thing is: the FDA approved it in 1970, and by 1971 it was being used recreationally enough-
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that it made it into- This blew me away, this is crazy. There was an underground comic about a fictional trio of stoner characters who would go around, and hijinks would ensue, and their whole dynamic was to see how many different kinds of drugs they could get their hands on and then do all of these drugs together. The name of it was “The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers”.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I thought you were gonna call it- it would be like “K-marmaduke”, or “K-maduke”, or somethin’.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not- Well…
KYLE GETZ
Beavis and Butt-Head and their friend Ketamine Joe.
MIKE JOHNSON
[both chuckle] Ketamine Joe.
KYLE GETZ
[in a goofy voice] “I’m Ketamine Joe.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh my god. Or, like, “Ketamine” as the name of a pet.
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
Or “Katamine”. Oh, it’s “Katamine”!
KYLE GETZ
Katamine!
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Sure. Um-
KYLE GETZ
Meow.
MIKE JOHNSON
But yeah, The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers was- it started in Austin, Texas in an underground newspaper called “The Rag” in 1968 and then eventually got big enough that it was being published as its own thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. But yeah, that- They got on that quick, both, like, the recreational use and it just appearing in, like, pop culture. That’s a quick turnaround.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So-
KYLE GETZ
And I didn’t realize it had been around that long. Like, we’ll talk more about, like, recently it’s become even more of an issue in the queer community, but, like, that-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It’s been around for a long time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
It really- It really, really has. So, like a lot of drugs, ketamine sort of flew under the radar as far as, like, the law was concerned and regulatory concerns. So it took a while for it then to get illegal, or at least reg- you know, put on the different schedules, like the FDA’s Schedule II – it’s now Schedule III, I think – and the equivalent in other countries. But part of it is, it got popular in the 1990s within rave and club scenes all over the world. Of course, in the United States, which you’re gonna talk about recreational stuff a little bit later, but apparently adult film star Joey Stefano died in 1994 from an overdose. He was in some gay porn, I understand. I might have gotten that wrong, but I think that he was a gay porn actor. So he- Yeah, he died in ‘94 from an overdose of ketamine, and that sort of kicks off a renewed “Oh, maybe we should- Maybe we should lock this shit down,” wave, you know, of legislation. So, in Australia, it’s a controlled drug under the Poisons Standard. In Canada it’s a Schedule I narcotic since 2005, which seems kind of late to me. It took India until 2013 to add it, and that was only after there was a string of date rape that was tied to ketamine. In the UK they regulate it as a Class B drug – that means something, I guess – in 2014. But uh, it’s been controlled in the United States as a Schedule III drug since 1999. So, weirdly, we were ahead of the curve on- [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Wow! Since when does that happen [chuckles] in the US?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, I’m gonna talk about k-holes in the Patreon segment.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
But uh, do you- Let’s- Do you know- Can you name some names, some street names for ketamine?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t know any of ‘em?
KYLE GETZ
“Special K”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Special K! “Special K” is number one, and the most common that’s used. When it first started becoming recreational in the late 60s and early 70s, it was called “mean green” or “rockmesc”.
KYLE GETZ
“Rockmesc”?
MIKE JOHNSON
R-O-C-K-M-E-S-C.
KYLE GETZ
Huh! That’s like a good wrestler name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, “Special K” or just “K”, “kitty”, “ket”, “K2”, “vitamin K”, “super K”, “honey oil”.
KYLE GETZ
Aw! [chuckles] That sounds like a- like a vegan… I don’t know. That’s sounds too adorable to be this, like…
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
…dangerous drug.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, “jet”, “super acid”, “mauve”, “special LA Coke,” “purple”, “wacky dust”, “rhino benzo”, “wonk”, “cat Valium”, “knod-off”, “Skittles”, “blind squid”-
KYLE GETZ
Skittles…
MIKE JOHNSON
-“Keller”, Kelly’s Day”, “new ecstasy”, “psychedelic heroin”, “bump”, or “majestic”. Also there’s a mixture of ketamine and cocaine that gets called “Calvin Klein” or “CK1”.
KYLE GETZ
Ohh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, in Hong Kong, they call it “kai-jai”. But yeah, that’s sort of the history of ketamine where it comes from, but I was surprised to learn that there’s, like – well, not surprised, I guess – there’s nothing natural about it. It is 100% created in a lab. So they, like, use test tubes, and bubbling, and churning [Kyle chuckles] to make to make PCP and then they take PCP and they further refine it and it becomes ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting. Yeah, wow. Um, yeah, so I’m gonna to tell you more about the recreational use.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
Before I do though, I will mention: I will also be talking about the medicinal uses there are. So, like, I’m gonna talk about kind of the negative and harmful types of uses, and there are also very promising therapeutic…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…especially to treat major depressive disorder, things that I have personally considered because of my depression and the same clinic offers them. So there are both good and bad so I’m starting with the bad, but just know there’s more to it than just this one thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, like you talked about, it’s an anesthetic. So, like, there’s lots of other uses. But, for recreational use, the one study- There’s- I couldn’t find a study that specifically narrowed it down to gay men, except for one that focused on, like, gay men at clubs. Like, this really specific thing that was going to then say, like, you know, “97% of gay men use it,” or something that, like, just felt like it- It wasn’t the one that I wanted to just grab.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Like, did it feel like, you know, Seattle has Hempfest so they, like, “Turns out 98% of people do marijuana!” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
It felt- Yeah, very, like, misleading and not gonna give us a good general overview. So, what I grabbed is this study called “Past-Year Ketamine Use: Evidence from a United States Population, 2015-2019” that was published in 2022 by Dr. Andrew Yockey in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Dr. Yockey” sounds like a dealer. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
“Hey, hit up my friend Dr. Yockey. He’s gotcha covered.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] This is recent, it’s new. This is fresh off the presses, sort of.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, just published. Like, everything- You know, it was collected from 2015 to 2019 but then it takes time to, like, assemble it and publish. And this is one I could not get access to all the details, but it doesn’t matter. I’ll just tell you what the- what they found. They estimated that .13% of adults have used ketamine in the past year in the US.
MIKE JOHNSON
Point-one-three?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Which is interesting because a different study showed that, in 2019, which is included in this but not- But, you know, that .13 includes, you know, more years. Just in 2019, about 1% of US people 18 and up reported using ketamine recreationally in the past year. So, the latest data that I have is from 2019. What did I say? Did I say “1%”?
MIKE JOHNSON
.13%.
KYLE GETZ
.13%. In 2019 it was 1%.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, I don’t- That’s the latest data I have so it’s possible – my guess, based on what I read – is it is increasing in usage.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s like 3 million people.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe 2019 was just a wild year. I don’t know. But it seems like usage is increasing.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We should time and tell them to wait until 2020. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Well… Okay, so, actually, I will jump to this: Rachael Bennett, [TN: Raquel Bennett] a psychologist who had studied the drug since 20- 2002, said in a Rolling Stones article that I read “I spent the first 16 years of my career trying to convince people to use this tool,” because it’s- you know, there’re good effects that I’m going to talk about later, “I spent the last four telling people to stop and exercise restraint.” And she said that there was a big spike of reports in ketamine addiction since the pandemic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
So I think people did resort to drugs, including ketamine, during the pandemic, which makes sense. Like, shit was hard and we were all coping doing whatever we could, and that included…
MIKE JOHNSON
Wine.
KYLE GETZ
Wine- [Mike chuckles] That included box wine for me for sure, that included weed, that included drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, that, was part of it. Um- I mean, and for me as well. So- And others. So… Back to the study though. So yes, it does say that it does seem to be increasing. In the pandemic, people did get the note and start, you know, goin’ for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But, um, at least back to this study, the people that are more likely to use- men are more likely to use it. Other risk factors that indicate, that can- or, you know, tied to increased use, are past-year drug use – so, if you use any drugs, that make sense – and, this is where we come in, sexual minority status. Um, the highest-risk people they found were sexual minority males who had reported using more than one substance.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Yeah, I mean, that- Here it is, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But that, like, checks out…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…with what I know of the scene.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I read something else that was not just ketamine, that was about any kind of these either party or sex drugs that people use, and it- there were other people other than gay men. Like, we tend to be the ones that get focused on in this conversation, and it was saying, like, there are other people that use drugs during sex. And so it’s not just gay men, but it did confirm that it- But gay men are among the most likely to do it, so the targeted message towards them is fair-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-and is warranted, and it is useful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So it seems like this is- it is the right- this stereotype at least is correct. It is the right- targeting the right callout, the right thing that we as a community need to watch out for.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-huh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I’m gonna talk about some of the risks and harm-reduction ideas. So, risks: you talked about, um, just the dissociative state and what people call a “k-hole”. Like, that is because you get side effects like delusions, like visions. You can get into these – if you use too much – dissociative states that can, it said, for some people, feel euphoric and, for other people, are like terrifying, and scary, and like you’re not in your body, and- Um, so that’s one of the risks. There’s a risk – you know, it’s a drug – high tolerance and dependency. There’s- Other side effects could be cramps or permanent bladder damage. So, in harm reduction, if you feel like you have to pee a lot more or if you see blood in your pee, that’s when you know you should see a doctor, because it can cause bladder damage.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow. I’ve never heard of that even a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s insane. Okay, go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. There’s also, and we’re hearing about this a lot in Seattle and a few of the- the, uh, fentanyl.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, it’s a story everywhere but I- but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m hearing about that a lot here. Just, there’s a risk of fentanyl combination. So, fentanyl is a painkiller that is found in hospitals, also manufactured for the black market, and it is very potent, 25 to 50 times more potent than heroin.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So it is, like- I’ve seen the comparison of the size of dose or whatever, and it is a tiny dose of fentanyl. So that’s the risk.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, some people use fentanyl on its own, sometimes it’s found in other drugs. It can be mixed into drugs like heroin or oxycodone because it’s a cheap alternative, offers a sedentary high, so it can be cut-in…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…you know, potentially to help, like, with the profits of people selling drugs. It’s also found in cocaine, which, they didn’t know what the- Um, you even mentioned it on your list, of “CK” as one.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There- So it sound- If there’s a- They said there are two- People disagree on why it’s found in cocaine, either intentionally mixed in to create its own drug- It has a different name, that seems like that’s a realistic possibility.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But this article didn’t say for sure. Or, accidental. If you’re- This is where I don’t know the details of drug dealing or how it works. If you’re doin’ your drug stuff with fentanyl, they don’t- you’re not, like, going to sterilize all your equipment or wipe it down, and a little bit of fentanyl, if that gets into cocaine, could be accidental.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Sure. Sure, sure, sure. There’re even, like, anecdotal reports of, like, accidental overdose because people just, like, handle something that has fentanyl in it-
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and didn’t know that it had it in it and then, like, I don’t know, touched their eye or something.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep. So, one of the harm reduction ideas is testing your drugs, is making sure. If you’re going to do it, test it to make sure that it is pure and not- does not contain any fentanyl.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t even know how I would do that. Like, can I run to the drugstore and get, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, go to the police. [chuckles] Ask about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. “Could you test this for me, please? Thank you.”
KYLE GETZ
There are devices you can use to test.
MIKE JOHNSON
Cool.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know any more than that, but yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, anyway, that was a lot about fentanyl, but that is the risk, that there could be, you know, fentanyl is included in this, that there’s- that could be deadly. And overdose on ketamine alone – death from overdose on ketamine alone – is rare.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
So let’s not say it doesn’t happen, let’s just say that that part is very rare. The risk though, the big risk, is whe- And studies say that most ketamine emergency room visits and deaths involve mixture with other drugs like alcohol, like opioids, or other stimulants. So, I mentioned some of the harm reduction ideas but other things that came up when looking this up- And the idea being I’m, like, a big proponent of harm reduction, but we haven’t just, like, mention- in all aspects of life, not just drugs, but the idea being, like… people will continue doing drugs. For some people they don’t even have a choice, they don’t want to, it just is part of it, or people may make the decision that they’re gonna keep doing it, whatever. People are gonna do drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I would rather you know how to be safe while doing that, if you are going to choose to, and stay alive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Rather than us not- like, pretending like abstinence is the only way to do it and then you’re like “Okay, then I don’t- then I’m just gonna do whatever,” and then not know and you accidentally mess up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, some harm reduction suggestions: eat at least two hours before you use, stay hydrated, so drink water or electrolyte drinks. This can help with the bladder damage that I mentioned. The idea that mixing ketamine is more the cause of emergency room visits or overdose… either avoid or try to reduce mixing ketamine with other substances. So, mixing ketamine with depressants can contribute to an overdose, mixing ketamine with stimulants can increase your heart rate and blood pressure so put pressure on your heart. Leave at least 30 minutes before doses if you’re going to, especially if you don’t know how it affects you, how much it affects you. That gives you enough time to feel it out and decide if you do want to do more. Do it with people you know, one of the risks- because the risk is becoming disoriented or disassociated. It talked about- And this is, again, what I really like about just acknowledging what happens. So, if you’re using it during sex work, if you’re using it around people you don’t know, if you’re using it around strangers, if you’re using- Like, those- that becomes a little bit more- Just be aware that you may not be in full control when you do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, it does make it a little bit riskier, so be around people that you know and trust. And one article suggested provide psychological support in party spaces, which, like, that, I was like “Really?” Like, I’ve never heard- I’ve never heard- Like, that would be very cool if you could have like a doctor on hand at places you know- Or, I don’t even know. Psychologically, you could have like a… I don’t know, a therapist to talk through if you’re dissoc-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know what that means, [Mike chuckles] like, or how we would do that exactly, but it was like-
MIKE JOHNSON
The next rave I throw, I’m gonna have, you know, somebody show up. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yes, exactly. But that was like a- That’s like a smart- Like, it just hit me as like “Oh, no one would ever do that,” and I was like “Oh, wait, but that’d be a really smart-” Like, you know, a volunteer healthcare worker. I don’t know, someone that could just be like “Look, I know…” Let’s just have someone on hand. So I- Again, I’d rather reduce- I’d rather a harm-reduction approach. Anyway, I thought that was an interesting suggestion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
But those are risks and harm-reduc- There are other harm reduction ideas, especially depending on the type you use, if you do, like, you know, snorting, or booty bump, or, you know, do various types. There are other suggestions, so make sure to read up on-
MIKE JOHNSON
…”Booty bump”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s where you put it in your butt.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Neat.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [Mike chuckles] Yeah, all of the drugs you can go through you can go rectally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah. I mean, you can butt chug booze, apparently. We learned that, so…
KYLE GETZ
You can put a lot of stuff up your butt if you really want to. [Mike chuckles] But that creates, like- I think when- It was like when- That can damage, like- That puts you at high- If you do a booty bump and then having sex, like, that can put you at higher risk for STIs because then it’s more likely to, you know, like, kinda… I don’t know the word.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It, like, makes surfaces more, like, open to getting the STI in there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the least medical way that I could describe that, that’s the risk, so it’s suggested, if you’re gonna booty bump, have someone do- wear a condom.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Huh! Well, thanks for that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, no problem. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
I agree with you on the harm-reduction shit, by the way. Like, I think, you know, abstinence-only is such a puritanical, horseshit, Christian thing, like, about all kinds of stuff: sex, booze, rock’n’roll, dancing… I don’t know. But-
KYLE GETZ
And, with drugs, it makes you feel- Like, if you do- To just say “Stop cold turkey…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
…that’s a lot for some people, and, um, it…
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s a lot of shit that you can’t stop cold turkey, like it will kill you to stop cold turkey.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes. And it’s- It makes you then- If you, like, ever use again, or relapse, or- It doesn’t- Like, you- It doesn’t- You can’t quit the first time. It, you know, usually takes multiple times to try quitting something before you can, then it makes you just feel like a failure if you do it again.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So it, like- It helps say, like, “Okay, let’s make this safer. Let’s reduce the amount of times. Let’s make su-” you know? Like, it’s- I absolutely think it’s a much better approach to all things, including drugs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah! For sure. Yes. Yes!
KYLE GETZ
Yesss.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, well, I’m gonna- I’m gonna tell you about Elijah McClain.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you know that name?
KYLE GETZ
Nope!
MIKE JOHNSON
We should. And, like- Like a lot of folks that fit this situation, we just- there’s too many of them to count. Anyway, he’s a 23-year-old African American from Aurora, Colorado who died six days after a violent police encounter. And so- So, on August 24th-
KYLE GETZ
Okay, yes. I’ve heard the name.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Yeah- Uh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But that’s about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and because of the timing of it also… Like, George Floyd was sort of the big flashpoint that really got, you know, “Say his name.” We said his name a lot while we were marching, right? Like- And this is roughly the same time period, right? So, um, uh… anyway. So, August 24th, 2019, there were three Aurora police officers and they made contact with Elijah McClain because an Aurora civilian had called in a tip that said that there was an unarmed person wearing a ski mask that looked sketchy. And all three of the officers that responded said that their body cameras were “knocked off” in the struggle with McClain and that’s why there’s no video – or, clear video – of all of this stuff.
KYLE GETZ
That should be automatic firing. Like, if your bod- Body cameras are such a useful tool that we need for police, like- Ugh. Talk about harm-reduction…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So, the caller- The caller definitely said that he did not believe that the person was armed, and that did not believe that anyone was in immediate danger, but wanted to call it in anyway. All he had done was go to the convenience store to get an iced tea for his brother. So, he was forcibly held to the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back…
KYLE GETZ
So there’s clearly a step where they assumed it was him as the dangerous person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, yeah, so- So, they approached him, they made contact with him. So, then, he seemed to have been- Well, he’s believed to have been listening to music at the time because he didn’t immediately respond, he didn’t immediately comply to police instructions-
KYLE GETZ
Aw, jeez.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and was kind of flailing around his arms, waving his arms around. And, um, his family-
KYLE GETZ
Which could just be, like, walking and moving or… what if you’re skipping? What if you’re, like- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
His family says that they think he was just dancing.
KYLE GETZ
Or dancing. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But the family also says that he would wear a ski mask from time to time because he had a blood circulation disorder that caused him to chill easily. He would get cold easy, so he would do that. So, the police report says that he “resisted when confronted by police officers.” One of the officers shouted “He’s going for your gun,” so they slammed him into a wall and then they wrestled him to the ground and handcuffed him. Then they did a- what’s called a “carotid hold”, where they tried to choke him out, because he was “resisting arrest.”
KYLE GETZ
Quote, unquote.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, uh, it’s… One of the officers said that he would have the police dog bite him if he didn’t settle down. Anyway, so- So- There’s a whole bunch of stuff, but, uh, then, because of the protocol involved, they called the paramedics. And they said to the paramedics that he was “acting crazy” and that he was “definitely on something” because he had “incredible, crazy strengths” when they tried to restrain him. And, uh, so the paramedics showed up and injected him with 500 milligrams of ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, apparently, is how they roll in Colorado, and is not the only jurisdiction in the country where, like, you might have an encounter with police and get fucking injected with ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
That’s wild that you can use that in that situation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Without consent, without- Like, just… The police said “Yeah, he’s a crazy person, calm him down,” and that’s the paramedics’ go-to.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, also, the medic at the scene estimated that McClain weighed 220 lbs. and that was why they gave him 500 mg of ketamine. Uh, dude was 5’6”, only weighed 140.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, should not have received more than about 320 mg of ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, if any.
MIKE JOHNSON
If any. There’s a neuroscientist named Carl Hart, who’s the chair of Columbia University’s psych department, he said, quote, “Why anyone would be giving [anyone] ketamine in that circumstance is beyond me.” “The major problem here is we should never be ordering any medication, and no one should be taking or given it against their will.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
About seven minutes after he received the ketamine he had no pulse in the ambulance, went into cardiac arrest, he was revived but was later declared brain dead, and was taken off of life support less than a week later. So- But this idea that, like, a- you can have a contact with police and be deemed “out of control” and they inject ketamine into your system to, like, put a stop to it, especially when it’s not exactly a safe drug, that people, especially with cardiac conditions, can react to…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And if you can- Like, if someone lets- Police I’m not gonna give any benefit of the doubt, they don’t deserve it, they haven’t earned that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
A paramedic, if they just – benefit of the doubt – completely misjudged… Like, if you can be that off by just eyeballing someone, that-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You don’t want to be in like “Oh, I eyeballed this person and I accidentally was off by 200 milligrams.” Like, that’s- You shouldn’t be able- Like, a mistake shouldn’t be able to be that catastrophic in this situation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I totally agree. And, you know, how much of that was amped up by, like, you know, three big white police offi- I don’t know, I assume they’re white.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was an assumption.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Eh. Good one.
MIKE JOHNSON
But three police officers are telling you, like, “Yeah, this guy’s crazy strong. He’s out of control.” Like, do you kind of, like- Does your mental math then- Like, are you biased by that report and so you, like, you know, kick it up a notch?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And, I mean, in general, black kids are seen as older, as more threatening as more violent, just by the way they look, not by doing anything else there. It’s like the adultification of young, black- especially young, black, boys. Like, I could see that, just by the virtue of him being black, people assume he might be bigger, stronger, fighting back, when none of that is actually true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Now- I looked, and I looked, and I looked, and nobody said Elijah – he went by Eli – nobody said Eli was gay. But he was definitely queer in that, like, an interesting dude kind of way. And I don’t- I don’t know, he seemed- He seemed kinda gay, to me.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Why?
MIKE JOHNSON
First, he’s really handsome, which is great. Like, that means you’re gay- or, in my opinion. But, as a teenager he taught himself guitar and violin, graduated with a technical degree from a college in Denver, got a job as a massage therapist, he was a vegetarian and known as a pacifist… his sister said, quote, “He was a really good person. He didn’t argue with anybody. If you tried to argue with him, he would just say ‘I love you’ and walk away.” His colleagues at Massage Envy, where he worked as a therapist, said that he always followed the model- or, he followed the motto “always with gratitude.” He would draw pictures for colleagues, perform headstands in the corridors, would wear barefoot running-style toe shoes so that he could feel closer to the ground, he would regularly sing or dance for colleagues or for clients, and he also took regular trips to a local pet store where he would play the violin for kittens who didn’t have homes.
KYLE GETZ
Aww, that’s adorable.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, his ear piercings, just his general- Like, his vibe… I- I don’t know. He seems pretty gay.
KYLE GETZ
But isn’t that, like, literally what we talk about doing the opposite of? Like, you just described a bunch of stereotypes that- none of which say he’s actually gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Is it- Is it because those are less masculine things, that make you assume he might be gay?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
Eh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, the segment about- The segment that I wanted to bring was just all of the different ways that ketamine can be used. Apparently “injected against your will by paramedics who got called there by cops that were freaking out” is on the list.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which… that seems so fucked up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So fucked up.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. That’s- I had no idea that they could even do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Eugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Well, another use…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Let’s turn it around.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s turn it around.
KYLE GETZ
Another use is, uh, for treatment for depression. And what I used in my- Previous, I mentioned the Rolling Stones, but now the credit. Rolling Stones article by Delilah Friedlander which came out this year, 2013- 2023.
MIKE JOHNSON
2023.
KYLE GETZ
Um, I used my clinic that I went to, because they offer both the brain magnets that I got and ketamine treatments. So I use their info, and Wikipedia, to tell you a little bit more about this as a device for treatment. It seems like a- Especially for people with major depression, it seems like a very promising option and that’s one of the things I mentioned up front, that there’s good to it as well because, for people with major depression, oftentimes, if you’ve been get to the point of going to therapy or taking medication, we have a lot of stigma around those things. But if those things don’t work, some- I didn’t know that there are lots of other options available. I didn’t know about TMS, which is the brain magnets, what I lovingly call “brain magnets”, which is the option that I did. That was one of the many options that I didn’t know were available to continue treating. And so, just knowing there are additional options past- You know, especially people with medication-resistant depression, like me, like, to know that there are more things beyond that, that isn’t the last kind of option to help, is very comforting. Or- I don’t know. At least you know you can keep trying.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s fairly new, right?
KYLE GETZ
And it’s new.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, all of that was new. I went through this with someone in my life, not too long back and, at that time, it was ECT, electroconvulsive therapy, or TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation. So it was either seizures or brain magnets, were the two things for treatment-resistant depression. And uh, ketamine was not yet an option, not on the list. And I guess psilocybin mushrooms is also on the list now, of, like, now there might be four options.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that one- At least at the clinic I- It is not an option there. I know they’re testing it in Portland, they’ve got some studies going and there’s potential for there to be additional testing going on, so- So, right now actually, ketamine is ahead of psilocybin in- at least in this one clinic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And so that’s part of what I want to say, is, like, I’m gonna give some specifics about treatments and this is very specific to one treatment. So I’m not promising that this is everything, I just want to give examples of what a ketamine treatment could look like.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
So there’re- From this Rolling Stones article, the author said, quote, “Many associate ketamine with escapism, and the drug is classified as a ‘dissociative.’ Yet while K distances me from my feelings, often what follows the high is a re-association: I return to sobriety with the dots of my mind and body connected differently, helping me adapt to an ever-changing world.” And I thought that was a good personal account of what is the value of this. That’s what I felt on shrooms. Like, there- After, like- After having done that I had realizations that I could not have gotten without them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, one 2018 paper said that ketamine was, quote, “arguably the greatest breakthrough in the field of depression in over 60 years.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Whoa, that’s a…
KYLE GETZ
That’s a bold statement.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a bold statement.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. So, three options that I will go through, one is IV ketamine. This is where, compared to the others, you tend to receive a larger, non-psychedelic dose of the drug intravenously under clinical supervision. And, in the Rolling Stones article, they said “often while reclined in cushy chairs, listening to curated playlists”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Aw!
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
I wonder what goes on the playlist.
KYLE GETZ
I wonder what goes on the playlist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Would they ask me “Do you want Taylor Swift on there?”
KYLE GETZ
In which case…
MIKE JOHNSON
And I have to figure out: do I?
KYLE GETZ
Do- Do you want, maybe- If you could dissociate a little bit and kinda reconnect the dots, maybe you would finally get it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe.
KYLE GETZ
Maybe the dots would connect and you’d be like Taylor Swift.
MIKE JOHNSON
One treatment away from being Swiftie, who knew?
KYLE GETZ
Artist of a generation, [Mike laughs] I didn’t know it until this moment. Maybe they’d put Britney on there for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it’d be like [in a wobbly voice] “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” [Mike chuckles] Um, anyway, they do- They do all of this to relieve symptoms of depression. Effects are experienced right away. And that was a common thing that I saw even in the recreational use of, the effects tend to be experienced right away, which is very different than other drugs or treatment options.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Even with TMS it took weeks to start to feel- of daily appointments to start to feel the effects.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Like, when I went on Lexapro a million years ago it was like 6, 8, 10 weeks to feel better.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Jesus.
KYLE GETZ
Some medication takes time to build up. Yep, yep. So, research has shown that treatment- that a treatment course of IV ketamin- ketamine could be up to 70% effective in alleviating depression symptoms, including the reduction of suicidal ideation. What that might look like, the clinic that I went to, they do 60 minute sessions two times a week for six treatments, followed by maintenance treatment if you have good results. So, they kind of figure out first does it work for you and, if so, then come up with a plan. The results tend to last seven to 10 days, although for, it said, “a significant minority”, the improvement may last for 30 days and longer. So, you know, there’s a kind of a window of effects. And, for some people, it could last longer than a week or longer than a month.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, unfortunately, insurance does not cover IV ketamine treatment. Again, that’s a generality, I would presume most of these newer things…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, insurance doesn’t want to fuckin’ cover anything, so-
KYLE GETZ
Right, yeah. [Mike chuckles] If they have any excuse not to, yeah. The second one is ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, that’s taking a smaller amount by either lozenge or nasal spray and then- What?
MIKE JOHNSON
Nasal spray?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, ‘cause, like, you’re not gonna, like, “Oh, here, do a line of ketamine,” you know? [Mike laughs] Like, you gotta do it another way that’s more, like, medicinal, so nasal spray is the other.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I just- I never considered, like, you know, hav- Like-
KYLE GETZ
Can you imagine your therapist just, like, getting together- [Mike laughs] getting her credit card out and just like making you a little line, giving you a straw? Like, “Alright, sniff up.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, on a harm-reduction thing it mentioned not sharing, like if you use something like a straw to, like, do a bump of it, like, not sharing that. Which, I didn’t know that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t know either.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know not to share. Whoops. So, ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Uh, so what- You take it and then you engage in talk therapy, which helps rewrite thought patterns while your mind is more receptive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm, mhm, mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, it creates a dissociative experience then that can help patients access emotional and psychological material that otherwise would be challenging to discuss during therapy. And it helps you get new insights on your depression while talking to a therapist. The plan at the clinic that I go to propose a series of preparatory sessions then a series of two hour medicine-assisted therapy sessions in the clinic, each followed in the days after by a one hour integration session. Uh, and they recommended an initial course might look like five to eight sessions.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow, okay, an “integration session”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, it’s like after- So, like, after you’ve had the experience and to kind of help process it. I think it’s- I think, recreationally, it can do similar things, but the value of having- This is why that recommendation was to have a person there. Like, if someone can help actually, like, “Let’s talk about this and process this,” just like with anything in life, it helps to have a professional help you do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And it’s also- Like, you’re dosing responsibly, you know, with kind of safeguards in place or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And, actually, safeguards in place I mention- When I- I don’t know if it changed, it’s been a while since I’ve talked to them about this option. The requirement though would have been for me to go get the nasal spray myself, and have that on hand, and bring that to my therapy sessions. They weren’t allowed to do it for you, and I didn’t like that risk of, like, “Let’s have ketamine sitting around.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So that’s one of the reasons I didn’t pursue that anymore. The IV… eh, no that’s too- I don’t have good enough insurance to pursue the IV. Like, some of these, unfortunately, are cost-prohibitive, which sucks when you’re depressed, to, like, have that be another thing to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And, like, the other one, insurance generally does not cover ketamine-assisted psychotherapy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm.
KYLE GETZ
The last- Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm! I’d hang on to it for you, if you wanted me to.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that’s a good idea.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, continue on. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh. No, I’ll have to- I’ll have to think about that and figure out if that’s a- would be a workaround.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
There’s also esketamine, which is- there’s the brand name-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s the Italian version. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
[doing an Italian accent] Esketamine-a! Aye, ma mia! [speaking normally] Um, the brand name is “Spravato”. At first I thought that was a tennis player. No, Spravato. Um, Sparatova. It is not ketamine, it is chemically related to ketamine and administered as a nasal spray. So, even though it’s not ketamine, it falls into this kind of category. It’s a new antidepressant. Unlike- Again, unlike other antidepressants, most people feel better after the first or second treatment. It works in 50 to 70% of patients with treatment-resistant depression.
MIKE JOHNSON
Whew!
KYLE GETZ
And it is the first FDA approved therapy to work for treatment resistant-depression with almost immediate effect.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, wow.
KYLE GETZ
So those are just some of the options that are out there, some of the uses for- and promising uses for treatment-resistant depression.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow… We live in the future, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
But we also live in the, like, in the stone ages because, like, there are these options that then either insurance won’t cover or they- We still have to, like, convince people to let us test, like, you know, psilocybin. Like, it’s- It sucks that it’s like…
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and in this country, there’s the whole, like, largely Christian horseshit of, like, “Mental health isn’t a thing.”
KYLE GETZ
Right? Yep
MIKE JOHNSON
Like “Just do better.”
KYLE GETZ
Yes, and our, like, kind of abstinence view of drugs in general. So, like, it’s harder to get something like this approved to be tested.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, it’s just- Yeah. It’s- Yeah. It’s advanced and feels, like, behind the times at the same time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I get that. Yeah, for sure. [someone briefly blows a raspberry] Alright, well, I’m gonna talk you about Azealia Banks.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both chuckle] Whenever anyone brings up Azealia Banks it’s like “What did she say this time?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that true? I-
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t really follow her.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I don’t know that much about her. So-
KYLE GETZ
The song “212” is one of the best songs maybe ever in the world. Um, uh, that’s hers. I don’t know any of her other music, but yeah, she’s known for saying bullshit and she’s always just caught in these- Like, she says shit and then gets in trouble, or gets in feuds, or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, um… yeah, apparently she got in trouble with Swedish people once.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Like, literally there’s probably a li- You could list the people she hasn’t gotten in trouble with, and that would be shorter.
MIKE JOHNSON
She made fun of the potato famine and pissed off the Irish… she, like- It just- Anyway, it’s really, really, really interesting to me. I don’t know anything about her at all. But, uh, she is bi. She’s bisexual. And she told the New York Times in an interview, she said, quote, “I’m not trying to be, like, the bisexual, lesbian rapper. I don’t live on other people’s terms.” Anyway, so she posted to her Facebook page a picture of herself with what appeared to be blood running down her face and head, and then people freaked out about that, and were making fun of the picture, and making fun of her choice to post that online. Which, they- She then came back and she said that the picture was of a religious practice, that she worships the goddess Yemayá. There’s an emphasis- There’s a tick mark over the last “a”, so it’s- I would say “Yemaya” [like “yuhm-EYE-uh”] but, because it’s on the end, like, it might be “Yemayá”. [like “yuhm-eye-AAH”] Anyway, the patron spirit of motherhood and rivers, of the Yoruba religion. So yeah, she was claiming “This is just my religion, you’re making fun of my religion. You’re, like- You’re being terrible people.” And I don’t understand how she made the leap from that to posting a meme that said that gays are appropriating horse culture because they wear harnesses, use J-Lube, and do ketamine [Kyle chuckles] because that’s a that’s a veterinary thing. It’s used extensively by veterinary science to put horses out so that they can do- perform surgery on them. But yeah, she said, quote, “Mainstream gay culture in a nutshell, yet y’all have the nerve to tell ME — THE HERBAL PLANT BASED GODDESS — that I need medication for believing in my goddess. THE HILARITY,” “Don’t fuck with me bitches. We can do this culture war all day and I promise you that I will win. Goodnight.” And it’s just, like, gays are “appropriating horse culture”, “harnesses, ketamine, obstetrical lube”… that’s- That was her choice. [chuckling] That was-
KYLE GETZ
That’s kinda funny. Oh, were people mad at her?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It said it was queerphobic, that it was, um, uh… One person, like, did that whole “announcing their departure” thing on her social media. Quote, “Stopped following today,” “Girl if you believe in what you claim to believe you wouldn’t act this way.” Um, one fan said, quote, “Clearly you are not a gay man and are misrepresenting a subculture. As a gay man, I find this absolutely offensive. But I don’t hold hate for you, it indicates to me that you are upset and are in pain. I’m sorry you feel that way.”
KYLE GETZ
God, I fu- Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
I fucking hate this- There’s this whole new wave of, like, when responding to trolls being like “I see you’re hurting.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I- It’s just so disingenuous. Like, I’m f- I don’t know, I just hate that, like, “I can tell you’re- from your comment that you yourself are hurting, and I hope that you learn to love yourself because I’ve learned to love myself.” Like, people post these whole diatribes to someone and I’m just like… I don’t know, barf. I just- I fucking hate it so much. [Mike laughs] It’s just- But you get to respond- If I support Azealia Banks for saying we’re appropriating horse culture, I support the person too saying that “You must be in pain,” and “Love yourself,” or whatever.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I just-
KYLE GETZ
It’s weird that that one got more of the reaction from me than the horse one, but I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, if a gay man had made that joke would that be different? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just the, um- I think it’s the deflection of it all that is most interesting.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a weird- Like, has nothing to do with this image you posted or your religion at all. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, was it mostly gays that were giving you shit about the- the religion thing? Also, I mean, the picture with blood all over her is a little disturbing, but, um, it’s not, like, jumping her shit about it. Like, if that’s her religion then go for it, right? And, um-
KYLE GETZ
Or is it, like, trying to use gays as a s- Like, this this part I don’t like. You’re right, if that was a joke someone – especially a gay man – made, that horse th- I think that would be funny. It’s- Like, the part that I dislike is, like, “Oh, you’re coming at me? Let me throw gays under the bus.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Like, why? Yeah, you’re right, the weird dis- not connectedness of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, well, Pink News said that the meme- they traced it back, and that it came from a gay meme Tumblr blog. So, it- We were making fun of ourselves when we put together this idea.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then she jumped on it and- I’ll end with this. Pink News, man. Sometimes the way that they write their articles is just fucking fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah?
MIKE JOHNSON
Said “Yes, this really happened. No, she’s not horsing around here, and really did post that meme on mane,” M-A-N-E. [laughing]
KYLE GETZ
Pink News… I can tell you’re really hurting. I can feel it from here, and just because you don’t love yourself doesn’t mean you have to lash out like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, Kyle. Did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did we talk about ketamine?
KYLE GETZ
We did.
MIKE JOHNSON
We did.
KYLE GETZ
We did.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, a whole bunch.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and we’re gonna talk more about-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, we’re gonna talk about K-holes and-
KYLE GETZ
K-holes and-
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna tell you why, like, Murray Bartlett is probably super into ketamine.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know who that is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah you do.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Umm… I have a couple of other things that I can tell you about.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. More ketamine in the Patreon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I gotta be- I gotta- You’re- I’m on the edge.
MIKE JOHNSON
Of glory.
KYLE GETZ
You’re edging me for when we’re coming back.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back! [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
You motherfuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Hello, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayishpodcast.com/live. We’re doing a live tour. We’re probably coming somewhere near you, unless you’re in the south. Houston’s the best we can do.
KYLE GETZ
We are coming big, we’re coming hard, six times, somewhere near you. Look up where we’re going. We’d be excited to see you. Live shows are always so much fun. You’ll get a drink with it… min’s one, let’s be honest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, and yeah, take a look at the schedule. Gayishpodcast.com/live.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, bring your Gayest & Straightest and you’ll walk away with some merch maybe, if you want to share.
KYLE GETZ
Oohh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’ll be fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ummm… Also, Local Gay Bar Review.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo. What can follow the 5 out of 5 dildo review?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s find out.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about the balcony club in Boise, Idaho.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhhh!
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re gonna do it together, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve been there! Twice.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’ve been there with me, even.
KYLE GETZ
With you, when we did our live shows at Treefort.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So, we were just in Boise for the Treefort music festival-
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and we went to The Balcony Club for Dragfort-
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and, um-
KYLE GETZ
Dragfort pulled talent, they did both years that we’ve been, but they pull some really great talent. They have some really great artists perform. So that, the show part, I will give overwhelmingly positive reviews.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I agree. I absolutely agree. It’s a really big space. Like, a surprising massive space with a cool, like, wraparound balcony outside.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, when the weather is warmer, is a good place to like hang out.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Or when you’re, like, warm or have social anxiety like me, you could just go stand out there and be like “I’m probably doing something.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And compared to big city bars it’s pretty affordable, um, if you ignore the fact that, like, the cover, if you weren’t- if you didn’t have a Treefort pass, was like super expensive.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but, uh- But, uh, yeah. I really- I think Boise is lucky to have that space. Now, don’t know if it’s true, but uh, apparently straight people own it, and there’s a lot of feelings about that.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So- It also was, I don’t know, pretty packed and I didn’t see a lot of, like, different kinds of people.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m inclined to give it three and a half dildos.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! that’s great. I, uh, did not get laid, and a lot of people were there their boyfriends. So I felt a little bit of- just that night, a little bit of… You know, that’s fine. Everyone can show up with their boyfriends if they want to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah! Great. Our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] We are- We have a Facebook group, we have a Discord, we have Spaces, we’re on Instagram. You can find all of our social media info at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Uhhh, Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, do it!
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is: I went to the Mariners game.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, you did. How was it, by the way?
KYLE GETZ
It was- You know what? It was a lot- So, what we did, instead of going to our seats, we went to a bar that was near our seats so we could stand up. We- I, like- I always hate- I’m a large person that is too wide for most seats, so I don’t fit, so I got to, like, actually just stand up and have some room to move around. So I loved that. I went with our favorite fag stag, Doug Antkowiak, whose birthday it was.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
KYLE GETZ
Happy birthday, Doug.
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy Birthday, Doug.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and his wife’s birthday too. Happy birthday, Britt. But that part was fun. Hung out, drank, like that. There was a game going on… Sometimes I looked over and was like “Oh, interesting.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you have garlic fries?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
No. I’m disappointed. Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
I just had large drinks. [chuckles] Um, and, when- There was somethin’ real ex- Like, in the 8th inning, everyone started screaming and got really excited and someone made me give them a high five and I was like “What happened?” and everyone was, like, laughing around me because we, like, tied it up in the 8th inning or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
So, my gayest is: I was like “Oh, it’s the 8th inning, people are excited and they’re gonna stay. I’m gonna take this opportunity,” so I left, like, right when it got tied up and everyone was like real exci- We were losing to the Astros the whole time. Right when it got tied up I was like “Cool. I’m leaving now so I can get a bus and I will be, like, too packed with people trying to escape.” So-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Lots of people leave at the 7th inning stretch, regardless of what’s going on. [chuckles] Just like “Fuck this, I’m out.”
KYLE GETZ
I stuck around a littl- Yeah, I stuck around. So, I at least got to be there for an exciting moment. I don’t know if they won or loss at the end of it. I didn’t- That’s also part of the gayness. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Great.
KYLE GETZ
They probably lost. That’s how thing-
MIKE JOHNSON
Gay.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] What about you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the straightest thing about me this week was: I went to- There’s a bar here called “CC’s” and the first Saturday of every month is fetish night and I went early. I – like, for years I’ve been doing this – go, and not wear gear, and just, like, go early, and get a spot at the bar, and drink, and then, like-
KYLE GETZ
Because, after a certain time, they only let people with gear in, and so you- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, but I think showing up to fetish night not in fetish gear is my straightest.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then, much to my disappointment, they were like “You have to leave,” [Kyle gasps] “If you don’t have gear, you have to leave at 8.”
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, at some point that changed. My, like, just go and enjoy, is, like- that’s not allowed no more.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, um, yeah. Anyway, so, the gayest thing about me, besides, like, wanting to throw a hissy fit when they said that I had to go… [Kyle chuckles] because, like, there’s definitely a screaming, like, queer inside of me that just wanted to, like, go off.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I didn’t, by the way.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, the gayest thing about me this week is, um- is, uh, weighing myself every day because Pride.
KYLE GETZ
Oh no, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know.
KYLE GETZ
Do we need to talk about that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm, eh. We can talk about that in our Patreon bonus episode about shame.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, boy. That’s- Yeah, unfortch. Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, this week we have a listener’s Gayest & Straightest, in voicemail!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
RICHARD [voicemail]
Hi Mike and Kyle. My name is Richard, I’m from South Africa. I have spent the last 4 months catching up on 6 years of Gayish and I absolutely love its [???], the candidness you guys approach the show with, I love the humor, I love the seriousness, everything. Uh, my Gayest & Straightest for this week: my straightest is organizing a golf day for work, and my gayest is organizing a Pride Outside hike for the community that I live in. So, thank you, keep up the good work.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you, Richard from South Africa.
KYLE GETZ
I love when Gayests & Straightests are mostly compliments for us. [Mike laughs] That’s my gayest: I prefer compliments over your actual- No, those were great ones. And, also, people-
MIKE JOHNSON
Golf is super straight.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. One of the straightest options.
MIKE JOHNSON
And “Pride Outside”? I love the idea of Pride Outside, that makes me happy.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s a really cute idea.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, plus, like- [chuckles] They’ll hear this in… another four years once they’re all caught up with, like, [both chuckle] all of our episodes So, like, at some day you’ll hear it.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s it!
KYLE GETZ
That’s it!
MIKE JOHNSON
We did an episode on ketamine, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
We did, as voted on by y’all. So thanks for voting, and join Patreon to help vote on our topics.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, do it. Thanks, Patreon?
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you- This is me. [clears throat] A-he-hem. Also, thank you to our Super Gap Bridgers. I’d like to thank Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañ…ez… [Mike chuckles] Wow, I don’t know what happened there. …Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for your support.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you very much for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it.
KYLE GETZ
See you next week.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bye.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
KYLE GETZ
[singing to the tune of “The Edge of Glory” by Lady Gaga] I’m on the edge whorey, and I’m bangin’ everyone that’s a duuuude. I’m on the edge of whorey, and I probably will bang youuu tooooo. I’m on the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge. I’m on the edge of whorey and, holes? Well, I have two.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]