Masking and code-switching are extra burdens placed on minoritized communities, including queer, Black, brown, and disabled communities, to fit in with the expectations of a straight, white, neurotypical society. The aunties from the podcast Minoritea Report join us to talk about their experiences.
In this episode: News- 1:52 || Main Topic (Masking)- 14:53 || Guests (Minoritea Report)- 24:10 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:14:31
We love Minoritea Report! You can find their podcast, follow them on socials, and get merch here: https://linktr.ee/MinoriteaReport.
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour are on pre-sale NOW (except NYC, where tickets are regular price). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, we play a fun game of XXX with Minoritea Report and answer some dirty questions. Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that’s holding a lot of water in its butt. [Mike chuckles] I guess that makes it anal-retentive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God. [laughs] It’s the worst when you douche and it doesn’t all come out and you’re like “Where did it go?” [Kyle laughs] “Do I have, like, a secret compartment?”
KYLE GETZ
It’s like half a cup of water still sloshing around?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah, and it won’t come out, like, dammit.
KYLE GETZ
A secret compartment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality and, today…
KYLE GETZ
Ms. Frizzle and the kids find the secret water butt compartment. [Mike laughs] When you wheel out the science cart to watch a TV instead of actually do learning.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the episode I want to watch.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, yeah. I’m old enough to remember, like, reel-to-reel, like, films.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, we showed movie movies because I don’t think VCRs were a thing yet. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Wow. We at least- We moved from VHSs to DVDs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is a great episode so far, Kyle. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
This is a good episode on Ms. Frizzle. [chuckle] I love this episode so far. Um, no, we are talking about masking.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about masking. Uh, yeah, which, you know, we’ll- we’ll get into it after some stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But it was a Gap Bridger request, which I’m super excited about.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, thanks, Harry Shaw.
MIKE JOHNSON
Especially because we’re gonna have some of our favorite collaborators on today. Minoritea Report is joining us.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And- So- They’re magical.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I heart them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. I’m excited to talk to them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the first: the United States Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, just last week has once again changed the blood donation recommendations, blood donation policies, in the United States. And it’s not better for me, personally, but it’s better in general I think. So, they are going to ask people who want to donate blood the same set of questions regardless of their sex or sexual orientation.
KYLE GETZ
That already sounds like an improvement.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, not- We’ve talked about it on the show a million times, but I think it’s worth going over because a lot of people just are unaware, it was just a few years ago that gay and bisexual men had a lifetime ban on donating blood. So, if you had ever banged a dude, as a dude, you were done. And then the most recent policy, which has been in effect for a couple of years now, said that men who have sex with men, or women who have sex with men who have sex with men, needed to wait three months after sexual contact with other men before they could donate blood. But they were looking at other countries like the UK and Canada who have implemented what they call “risk-based rules” and determined that it was safe to not make it about orientation or even gender identity, but to make it about behavior. So-
KYLE GETZ
Which, that makes way more sense to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, yep. Exactly. Now, the reason that I still can’t donate blood is because if you are on PrEP you still can’t donate blood.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, um, that’s partially because PrEP, and medications like PrEP that are that are used for HIV treatment, can make it so that there- it is an undetectable amount of viral load in the blood supply, which, undetectable is untransmissible- untransmittable. “U=U”, on your dating apps, that’s a person saying that “I am pos but I don’t have any measurable amount of viral load in my blood,” you cannot get HIV sexually from a person. But it turns out that it is possible for you to have an undetectable amount of viral load in your blood. But blood-to-blood, like directly going in your veins, not via sex, is still a risk, it’s still possible to transmit.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. Interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, because PrEP is part of the equation that can lower the detectability- Um, and so it’s just an overabundance of caution. But, under the new questions, anyone who had a new sexual partner and anal sex, or who had multiple sexual partners and anal sex, would be asked to wait three months from their most recent sexual contact to donate blood. And then, again, if you’re on PrEP, you still- you can’t. And the FDA is saying they advise against stopping PrEP to donate blood. Don’t. If you’re on PrEP, be on PrEP.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t go off PrEP so you can donate get blood.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that would be the most, like, kindhearted person in the world that I can imagine, [chuckles] to go off PrEP just to donate blood. Like, that’s so sweet of you but, like, no, take care of you first.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Well, and, then I was thinking, like… I don’t know, why am I on PrEP? The last load I took was January so, like, there’s been plenty of time.
KYLE GETZ
But, like, did you plan for that? Would you have wrapped it up? Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
You know? It’s not about a- It’s not about frequency it’s also about, when it happens, what do you do? So, you know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Anyway, thanks, FDA, for doing your best to take the “Are you gay?” part out and just focus on the dangerous part, which is the butt sex part.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and especially when you’re already doing a pre-screening with every person. This is not like we have to make mass decisions based on no information other than “Oh, we know some people are gay.” It’s, like, you’re doing a pre-screening where you control what questions you ask a person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
And so, rather than asking them if they’re gay and making some assumptions, you can just ask what you really need to know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
So it’s not that we’re, like, being more PC, it’s just we’re following the trail of what actually- what actual information causes the risk and what do we need to know from people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
So, that’s awesome.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uhh, okay, news the second. So… [sighs] there’s this dude-
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s this dude named Bob Huggins, and Bob Huggins is the West Virginia men’s basketball head coach. Are you- Have you been following this story at all?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m mostly just throwing it in here because I like the fact that there are consequences. So [Kyle laughs] he went on a Cincinnati radio show a couple of weeks ago, towards the beginning of May here, and heeee said a bunch of nasty shit about Xavier, which is another school, I guess it’s like their rival. And- I haven’t found the clip to listen to it, and most of the articles dance around what exactly he said, which, that’s interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But he was on a Cincinnati radio show and they asked him if he’d ever poached any Xavier players to transfer to West Virginia. And he said, quote, “Catholics don’t do that. Any school that can throw rubber penises on the floor and then say they didn’t do it, [my] god they can get away with anything,” and then the show host mentions that it was transgender night at the game that Huggins was referencing while he was a coach at the University of Cincinnati. It is unclear if the school ever held a transgender night or if the incident Huggins described ever happened, but he followed up with an anti-gay comment. Quote, “what it was, was all those fags, those Catholic fags, I think,” “[I think] they were envious they didn’t have one.” A transgender night, I guess. Anyway-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, so, blah, blah, blah, he made a big ole apology and said that he understood that it was “abhorrent”, and, um, he said a bunch of very, like, I don’t know… PC bullshit. Quote, “I deeply regret my actions,” “I also regret the embarrassment and disappointment it has caused our Athletics family”. This is- Like, you’re reading this, you fuckin’ dickbag.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, he gave a PR person, like, “I need a publicist to draft me feelings.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, but this- He also was given a three game suspension, is going to be required to participate in sensitivity training, his contract has been changed from a six-year contract – or, multi-year contract – to a year-to-year deal, and, this is the big one, his salary was reduced by $1 million.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus Christ.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, he was supposed to be getting $4.1 million and they reduced his salary to 3, over this comment that he made.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I mean, on one hand, that’s great, and can you imagine making- still making $3 million?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like… ugh, jeez, that’s insane. But, I mean, yeah, that’s great. Those seem like real, tangible consequences and not just-
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep, yep. Absolutely. So, West Virginia University, good for you for, like, I don’t know, like actually doing something about it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It wasn’t just a slap on the wrist, it wasn’t just, like, an apology tour, it was, like, fuckin’ paycheck, dickbag.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. And, hopefully, if it happens again, there’s something that, like- Okay, that’s why it’s year-to-year, so they can, like- If something like this happens again, if he shows a pattern of behavior, then you let him go.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Because that’s, like- One of those interviews, it’s like… that came out of your mouth because that’s who you are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
By nature.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you had to do the fake apology “Oh, I’m so sorry.” Like, you’re not- Like, you’re sorry you got caught but, like, that’s the kind of shit you know he says all the time at home.
MIKE JOHNSON
Absolutely, yeah. I don’t think straight people throw around the F word very much unless they’re, like, throwing it around a lot.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, much less on the radio.
KYLE GETZ
I completely- Yeah. Like, yeah. If you’re saying “fag” on the radio- Like, that would be a time you… I don’t know, I think you’d kind of hide the F word to, like, just- I-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t get it.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know why you’d think that would be- Yeah. That’s wild, that he even thought that was an acceptable thing to throw around.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. He also says that- The school says that Huggins and all athletic department people will, quote, “partner with WVU’s LGBTQ+ Center to develop annual training sessions that will address all aspects of inequality including homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ableism and more.” I don’t understand why every educational institute in the country isn’t already doing this kind of shit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. As a base- As a baseline.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, day one of “You work here now,” should probably be “Here’s how to not be a dickbag.” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Oh, man, can you imagine the poor fag that has to lead that training?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, my god. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
It’d be like “Let’s talk about…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Let’s talk about what it means to be gay.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Butt sex!” “Shut up.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“Don’t say words yet.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. Exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Oh man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and the ignorant but probably well-meaning questions that he’s gonna get.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. And those are times you kind of have to, like, be able to accept the ignorant but well-meaning questions because this is a safe place of learning where you’re allowed to, like- I wonder what- Ugh, I would, like, pay to hear what questions you get asked at those kinds of sessions.
MIKE JOHNSON
I absolutely would too.
KYLE GETZ
Oh man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, news the last.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, uh, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson wrote the court’s opinion in Santos-Zacaria v. Garland. It was a unanimous decision, which, that’s interesting because even Clarence Thomas apparently isn’t a big enough fuckface asshole dickbag [Kyle chuckles] to fight this. But, uh, the decision is historic not just because of the impact that it had on the law, but because it is inclusive in transgender people noncitizens that live in the United States and does so in a way that uses proper pronouns to describe a trans woman who fled Guatemala after being assaulted and persecuted on the basis of her gender identity and sexual orientation. She, um- Oh, also, a, uh- They- It’s noteworthy that the opinion uses the term “noncitizen” rather than “illegal alien”-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
-which has appeared in court documents before, but Justice Jackson chose to use “noncitizen” as part of the language, which I think is great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but Estrella Santos-Zacaria, who’s a trans refugee, came to the United States illegally and was deported, so then she came to the United States again, because she was being accosted for being trans in Guatemala. And, apparently, there’s some sort of technicality in how she was deported that’s just, like- There doesn’t need to be an opinion, it just- They fucked up the deportation process, so she needs to go through the right channels to be deported. But yeah, the fact that they use she/her pronouns and refer to her as a “noncitizen” is pretty cool.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Pretty new. And, of course, Justice Jackson is one of the liberal ones, and a badass.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s it.
KYLE GETZ
That’s awesome.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Um, speaking of badasses…
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
Okay! [both laugh] Speaking of badi, uh, I would like to think the following-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the plural, now?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Badi”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know. Uh, I would like to thank the following Patreon members: Kevin Kelly-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s two first names.
KYLE GETZ
That’s two first names, Kevin… and/or Kelly. Uh, Hunter Silver… that’s the name of an X-Man.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a color.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, right. [chuckles] I’m thinking of redoing my wall, I’m gonna do a deep shade of hunter silver.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hunter green, hunter orange, and hunter silver highlights.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both chuckle] Uh, Charles Benton…
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Do you have any comments?
MIKE JOHNSON
That sounds fancy, actually.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, sorry. [in a shrill unfancy voice] Charles Benton! [Mike laughs] Uh, Klyde…
MIKE JOHNSON
“Klyde”?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Uniname.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Klyde”… sounds like a horse.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, “Clydesdale”.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think my grandpa had a horse named “Clyde”.
KYLE GETZ
“Clyde the Clydesdale”? That’s a little- That’s a little much. That’s a little too much.
MIKE JOHNSON
I bet the Bestiality episode got Klyde. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, sorry, Klyde. We only knew you- Thanks for joining, bye, see you later.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Later!
KYLE GETZ
It’s been fun having you. Um, and Jeff Tollett… or “Tollett”, [said like “tow-LAY”] but there’re two t’s, so “Tollett”. [like “tow-LET”] “Tollett” [like “TOY-ett”] “Tollett”. [like “toll-ee-ETT-uh”]
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Jeff.
KYLE GETZ
Thanks, Jeff. I would like to thank all of our new Patreon members. If you want to get episodes a day early, get them ad-free, or even get bonus content, episodes, bonus segments, you can join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeeeah! And 50% off live show tickets. You should buy those, you dirty fuckers.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! You beautiful, dirty fuckers. [Mike laughs] We love you so… get your live show tickets. Gayishpodcast.com/live, see all the dates.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay, you want to talk about masking?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Masc masking.
KYLE GETZ
Masc4mascing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which, there’s masking involved in a lot of masc-
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh yeah, dude. There is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah brah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do this whole thing as if we’re, like, dudes.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] So, we had sort of kicked around this idea. First, Harry Shaw, one of our Gap Bridgers, selected this. We take our Gap Bridgers and we have- we sit down and have, like, a face-to-face chat with them.
KYLE GETZ
We steal them [chuckles] for a brief-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
-a brief night.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then, uh, we- Yeah, we talk through ideas and what interests are, and we settled on this. But we were sort of… not unsure, but we were kicking around this, like, “What is masking, versus what is code-switching?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because they are quite related. And I was telling you, right before we went on the air, that I think that this episode is the Masking episode, if only because a lot of the stuff that I read about code-switching makes it sound like that’s specifically about being multilingual.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
That code-switching, in, like, the stuff that I was reading is, like, “When do you speak your native language, versus when do you speak English in English spaces?”
KYLE GETZ
I’m guessing- I’m guessing that’s one of the definitions, because I saw that too but then I also saw other things that were like… when you are speaking in the language that you use within your minority group. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I saw kind of both options.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. But still about language, right?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s see. I have definitions, and my “code-switching”- definition on “code-switching” says “It involves adjusting one’s speech, appearance, behavior, and mannerisms…”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
“…that will increase the comfort of others in exchange for fair treatment.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
So, I think there are- I think the more, like, literal or maybe, like, the non-psychological definition, like, might be, you know, I’m guessing that’s where it started. Code-switching is, like, about language but has then moved on to… There is more that you have to- When you’re adjusting for kind of the dominant kind of behaviors, mannerisms…. ways that are found acceptable to be treated that you… you have to adjust all that, including your language.
MIKE JOHNSON
So maybe- Maybe it is masking, maybe masking is code-switching. Because-
KYLE GETZ
What’s the- Yeah, what did you- Did you find, like, the difference between the two?
MIKE JOHNSON
Masking is psychology and sociology. It says it’s “the process in which an individual camouflages their natural personality or behavior to conform to social pressures, abuse, or harassment.” So yeah, it’s about- It’s about passing as something other than who you really are, in societ- to conform to societal expectations.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So that’s why we were kicking around this idea of, like… sure, we get it from a queer perspective, but there’s a lot of intersectionality when it comes to these things and it would be great to talk to people who have more than one interesting thing about them. [both chuckles] So we got ahold of Minoritea Report, which, fuckin’ love those guys, and they’re all Black queer men, so there’s at least- We can talk about the compounding influences of those things, because I know that Black people are under a lot of pressure in White society, and queer people are under [chuckles] a lot of pressure in straight society, and they are under a lot of pressure for both reasons.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I want to get into it with them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, what I’m coming to understand is that I think “code-switching” and “masking” can be used sometimes synonymously. To me, “code-switching” often refers to… um, race comes up a lot, using AAVE and language that you’re used to around other Black people, versus what White society expects your, you know, words, and sentences, and grammar to sound like. But it-
MIKE JOHNSON
By the way, everybody, AAVE is Ebonics. Don’t say “Ebonics” anymore, say “AAVE”.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
African American Vernacular English.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which is- This something I’ve only learned recently. Like, it is an actual language. So if you’re correcting someone because you’re a grammar- you’re the grammar police and think that “Oh, you’re speaking incorrectly,” it’s a correct, totally acceptable form of English.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So you’re the asshole.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So… I think- This is a sidenote, but just, like, focusing on someone’s meaning, especially in an argument- Like, in an argument where you start to, like, say, like, “You used the wrong ‘their’ or ‘there’,” like… you’re not, like, directly addressing their argument. You’re not, like, directly addressing or having the conversation. So then you kind of look-
MIKE JOHNSON
And, if somebody says “Your an idiot,” “[Y-O-U-R] an idiot,” on Facebook, they will get a something from me every single time.
KYLE GETZ
That’s funny though. [Mike laughs] That’s to be like “Oh-” That is kind of addressing, directly addressing, their issue though. [chuckles] Anyway, so “code-switching” seem to mostly talk about racism and race-related, like, code-switching, but there’s, you know, far broader things that that applies to. “Masking” seems to be like… When code-switching, you have to mask some of your traits.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And masking seemed explicitly only like hiding behaviors, let’s see… “hides or suppresses behaviors or difficulties they’re experiencing.” It particularly came up when I looked at, like, people with disabilities, people with autism. That seem to be, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Like hiding certain traits or behaviors because they know that they’ve either gotten negative feedback from those behaviors or they know it’s not acceptable, consciously or subconsciously. Like, either way, trying to hide traits that they naturally have in order to conform.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah! I saw high-functioning autism as being- There’s a lot of stuff out there in this space too, and it’s a slightly different- because they’re, uh… sure they’re trying to mask the fact that they have autism, but a lot of it is by adopting, like, behaviors of neurotypical people that they have observed and/or have been taught or- There are, um- There’s like blogs and YouTube videos on, like, how to pass as neurotypical, which I think is super interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely. Should I talk a little bit about…
MIKE JOHNSON
Whatever the fuck you want to, because this is your show?
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely! [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, I’ll just spend a few minutes and talk about, like, for code-switching and masking, a couple of the challenges that come along with this. Both these, I think, we’re mainly gonna be talking about kind of the negative effects of having to do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Code-switching, the pressure to conform to dominant culture, can lead to burnout or emotional exhaustion. Which, like, to try to, like- Even, let’s just do the language thing. To try to speak in a different language than your native language all day, every day, is a lot.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, for sure.
KYLE GETZ
That’s- I did that when I studied abroad in Spain. It was- It was tiring.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It was exhausting just speaking. And you’re like- Every interaction, you’re like… [sighing] “Okay.”
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a lot just to get through a podcast with you, I think.
KYLE GETZ
I know. [both chuckle] Is there, like, a code-switching- a pod- We do a little bit of code-switching podcasting, because we, like, turn on different podcasting qualities and turn off others.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. [in a very podcaster-type voice] I definitely don’t talk like this to you in real life, Kyle. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] [in a similarly podcast-y voice] Well that’s interesting, Mike, sometimes I do talk to you like this… but it’s real weird for both of us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Um, code-switching can cause people to not be fully present in the moment because they’re monitoring every word that comes out of their mouth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck, that is- That resonates.
KYLE GETZ
With… With gay? Being gay and not-
MIKE JOHNSON
Being in the closet for 30 years feels just like that.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and it can create tension between an individual and members of the cultural group with which they most strongly identify.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, when you’re- If you code-switch and someone that hears you in both scenarios hears you trying to present more, like, favorably to White people, or they’re like, “What the fuck is your-?” like “Why do you sound like that? What are you doing?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, I can- I can even imagine a, you know, a scene in a TV show where someone is like “Wait, why do you- Why are you talking like that to them?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, for masking, some of the side effects: increased stress, depression, and anxiety are some of the potential side effects, sense of loss of your overall identity, and long-term… it says “masking may cause autistic people the most harm,” according to some research. And signs that someone may be masking includes mirroring other’s facial expressions or social behaviors, rehearsing or preparing scripted responses to comments, or imitating gestures such as handshakes or initiating eye contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
So it’s like looking at other people and mirroring what they’re doing, because that’s where you’re picking up your clues and your cues from.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, that’s so interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Alright, well, do you want to take a little break and then talk more about both of these with the boys from Minoritea Report?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! We’re gonna take a break! When we get back we will have Kerel, Jerrell, and Dawon from Minoritea Report on and we’re gonna… have a kiki? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, you wanna take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break!
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back. We are here with Auntie Kerel, Auntie Jerrell, and Auntie Dawon from Minoritea Report. Ladies, welcome to Gayish. Welcome back.
DAWON
Thank you!
KEREL
Thanks for having us back.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, first, uh, it’s been a while since we had you on, but not your first rodeo. What have y’all been up to since the last time you were in front of us?
KEREL
Oh, lord. [laughs]
JERRELL
That’s a loaded question.
DAWON
Survived the pandemic? Uh, where do we start? [all chuckle] It’s been so much time.
KEREL
Eating too much… uh, [chuckles] what else?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
I don’t know, just- I mean, celebrating more podcasts, victories, and we just celebrated 4 years on the podcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
That was fun.
KYLE GETZ
Four years…
MIKE JOHNSON
Congratulations.
KYLE GETZ
Congrats!
KEREL
Was wearin’ wigs…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That was a fun episode, that was a lot of fun to watch.
KEREL
That was fun.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
Yeah, and thank you for hopping on there, by the way.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, no problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
Did you think you’d make it four years, when you started? Is that- Was that, like, your vision?
KEREL
Uh… I guess I don’t know if I ever thought of- And, maybe, Dawon and Jerrell, if you had a number on it?
DAWON
Oh yeah.
KEREL
I don’t know if we had, like, a num- [chuckles] Dawon’s like “Yes, 1 year.” [Dawon, Kyle, and Mike laugh] Uh, I don’t know if I ever thought of a number but… did I think we’d still be here? I thought so, at least. Yeah.
KEREL
I agree.
JERRELL
I just didn’t think it would come this quick. Like, I don’t- I didn’t think 4 years would pass that fast. It honestly feels like we’re, like, in the terrible twos. Like, in my mind, like, those original first episodes where we were trying to figure things out still live rent-free in my head, that the community and the world still will never see. [all chuckle]
KEREL
Girl, those episodes are in the vault.
JERRELL
Because the lighting was bad, the mics were bad… [Dawon chuckles] It was… Girl, it was like baby drag. It was not cute. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s a requirement for everyone’s first few podcast episodes, you have to do it on bad mics, it has to sound horrible, and you have to- never want to listen to them again.
JERRELL
Ever.
KYLE GETZ
Ever.
JERRELL
Ever.
DAWON
I have to say- I have to say though, we put a lot of thought and energy into, like, that formative year. So, you know, it’s not like we just decided to turn the cameras on and the mics on and said “Let’s see how she goes!”
KEREL
That’s true. [laughs]
DAWON
Like, we literally put a- We had so many production calls, we were really thoughtful and intentional about what we wanted the voice to be, how we wanted to interact with one another, and how we wanted to use the platform. So, you know, when you think about four years ago and making it to where we are today, I’m just so grateful, you know, that what it is that we’re doing, and the message that we’re sending around representation and that every voice matters, especially those that go unheard and unsung and, you know, don’t have the platform…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
…that that’s resonating with people. That’s what continues to give a lot of us hope. And we are some silly hoes. [all laugh] We like to have fun. This is- You all are getting, like, a snippet of what our regular conversations are like on the daily. So, did we expect to be here four years from now? Yeah, I think so. And I think we’ll probably be here for quite a while.
KEREL
Aw hell, that’s right! Y’all ain’t getting rid of us yet!
DAWON
Maybe some different things- [Mike and Dawon chuckle] Maybe some different things and, you know, having some different people on and, you know, continuing to evolve like we all are doing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome.
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing. Let us into behind the scenes a little bit. Like, what kind of things were most important to you, when putting together this podcast?
JERRELL
Can’t let you behind the scenes too much, because that means we gotta tell you about the text thread, and the text thread don’t make it to the podcast all the time. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Read me one message where it’s all in caps. [chuckles]
KEREL
And the behind the scenes means we don’t know if Jerrell has pants on or not half the time.
DAWON
That part.
JERRELL
She got shorts on today. I thought about it, ‘cause it’s hot, but this chair is- And my ass- My bare ass won’t mesh well too much, so…
KEREL
So that’s the behind scenes stuff. [chuckles]
DAWON
Look, we started this before the pandemic so we were still using, like- We were all, like, having our regular day jobs, we were still, like, sending messages to each other while we were actually physically going into the office. And, like, that’s when you had to, like- Because when you got a text message of something scandalous, you had the ability to, like, make it invisible [chuckles] so that you weren’t in some kind of meeting with your work colleagues that you have so- Just any old thing thingin’ and thingin’ on your phone in the middle of a conversation.
KEREL
That part.
DAWON
So, yeah, it’s been an adventure. [Jerrell and Kyle chuckle]
KEREL
But, I guess, maybe even just to kind of go back to that question though: it’s just, like, we just wanted really to show the spectrum of what it was to be Black and queer and really be- give a voice, or at least a part of a voice because we’re not a monolith at all. But at least sharing our perspective and bringing on folks to share their perspective, what it is to be Black and brown in the queer space. But I would say the one thing, maybe, in the four years that I didn’t… foresee, for just, like, feedback that we get, is that a lot of folks are like “It’s awesome to see three queer Black friends and that dynamic.” For us that was like the norm, we we’re like “Of course we’re friends,” you know, and things like that. But that is a lot of the feedback we get, that they’ve just never been- folks have not been… privy, maybe, to the inside conversations of three queer Black friends, or, that they like seeing the conversations between three queer Black folks because they’re also having those conversations.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
And so that was maybe, like, a given that, like, we didn’t even really discuss at the beginning. But it’s kind of cool, that “Oh, yeah, duh, we’re friends!” [laughs] you know, kind of thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
And that’s been great. And just the vulnerability of just, like, obviously doing, you know, your “Ask Your Aunties” questions and things like that. Just the continued vulnerability, that people are willing to share questions and they might get read by us, it might be a shady answer, and things like that, but that’s just part of the camaraderie we have with the community. That’s been really cool.
KYLE GETZ
And I think that leads very well, actually, into this conversation about code-switching and masking, of kind of the expectations when you’re speaking with your friends versus… I don’t know, I’m trying to think of, like, professionally or- Can you tell me just a little bit about your experience? I’m more thinking like, either younger versions of you or maybe versions of you that had to struggle with this. Like, how have you- What are the challenges in having to code-switch or mask your behaviors or the way you’re used to speaking for kind of mass appeal?
KEREL
How long we got? [all laugh]
JERRELL
I feel like the HR director of Minoritea Report should take this question please. Ms. Auntie Dawon, you’re up. [all laugh]
DAWON
I think one of the things that a lot of your listeners who are people of color, and more specifically Black, would appreciate is just the acknowledgement that we grew up like this. So, the notion of code-switching and masking is ingrained within Black culture, because that’s the way that we have to exist in a world that subjugates us, and the way that it does specifically here in the United States.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
DAWON
Right? So it’s not- It’s not entirely a different experience. Now, that doesn’t mean that it’s not difficult, and it doesn’t feel good and, you know, that we aspire for environments that are vastly different, and that it’s not a struggle, but we do it because we’ve been doing it ever since we’ve been born. We’ve been taught, you know, how to speak in predominantly White spaces. We’ve been taught, like, what professionalism is supposed to look like, you know, which emulates certain ideologies that come from, you know, straight White men, essentially.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
Women go through this as well. So, the notion of code-switching, whether it’s using a vernacular, a style, a tonality, or a lack thereof – right? – in predominantly White spaces, is the modus operandi and is the expectation, right? And then, covering and masking aspects of our identities… Again, you know, you think about how many Black women have straightened their hair – right? – to fit in, or have- when they’ve chosen to wear their hair natural or they’ve chosen to wear braids and have had people coming over to them saying “Can I touch your hair?” or not even saying that, just coming over and having the audacity to put their hands on someone to touch their hair because they’re curious. Like, this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon, you know, and there’s been a lot of education about how to combat this. And I appreciate allies like you all, you know, to our community – when I say “our community”, the Black queer community – for raising the conversation, because this is not something that is- Part of- Let me take one step back and just say that privilege is the ability to not have to care about something that impacts somebody else.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, absolutely.
DAWON
So let’s be clear. So, when we talk about masking, and code-switching, and covering, and these concepts that are predominantly impacting people of color, a lot of White people – and I say “White people” just generally, right? – not everyone, but a lot of White people, don’t have a real understanding of what that is like for someone who is Black.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
And we don’t really have an understanding of what it’s like for somebody who is Hispanic. And, you know, the list goes on. So that’s the privilege, right? But you all using the platform that you have, to have conversations about this particular topic in the spirit of raising awareness so that we can all be better and do better, I think that’s a really great first step.
JERRELL
And I would absolutely agree. It’s- I love having the conversation, because the truth of the fact is, like Dwane said, like, as being Black and brown is part of just our culture and how we grew up. You know, like my mom would say, “When you leave this house, you better act like you got some sense,” what meant, you know, “How we act in the house is how we act because that’s how we communicate, but when you leave this house you communicate in a way where other people understand who you are and what you’re trying to say.” And that’s where, for me, code-switching really began as far as understanding, you know, there is in your home, and there’s the outside world. But the truth is, a lot of Black folks are also tired of having to code-switch. It’s like a job inside another job. Like, we go to work and then we have to clock in again to make sure that we don’t say something that may have other people look at us like “Oh, that’s not how we say things around here,” or “You’re not educated,” or, just, even the communication and how I may say something, it may not be how they’re used to having that type of conversation. So it’s- It’s- [chuckles] In my mind, I think if I had like a bra on and I came home and I take it off, like, that’s what code-switching would feel like to me. [everyone else laughs] You know? Like, I’ll leave work and I’m just like-
DAWON
Let these titties out, girl!
JERRELL
Girl, let ‘em out. Because it is- It’s weight. Because, like, it’s- One of the things that I love about my relationship, my partner is an immigrant, he migrated here, and so English isn’t his first language and he often would have conversations about, like, how he would feel embarrassed about his English, and he would constantly ask me for the first few years, like, “Did I say that okay? Do I sound like I’m not from here?” like always thinking about that. And then he would tell me, like, “I would have to say it in Albanian first before I said it in English, to make sure you understood what I was saying,” and I was like “Bitch, that’s code-switchin’.” I have to say it how I would want to say it normally, and then I have to say it in a way that non-Black folks, non-Black and brown folks, would be able to understand it. And I’m like “See, I love you even more because you understand something that a lot of other people don’t understand,” you know? So I do, like Dawon, appreciate having these conversations, because it’s the only way we’re gonna feel comfortable to be our most authentic selves and actually allow for us to not be able to code-switch, the more allies understand the importance of us being able to truly be our authentic selves. Because, often, workspaces are like “Hey, you know, we really accept you for who you are,” but it doesn’t feel like that quite often.
KYLE GETZ
With a big asterisk, maybe? Like- [chuckles]
JERRELL
Yes, exactly. Mhm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I wanted to ask you: you talk about your mom saying, you know, things to you as you were leaving the house…
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know that, like, Black parents, with their kids, have the talk about cops – right? – and that’s something that White parents don’t do, and talking to my Black friends and learning, like, every single Black person in my life had their parent, at some point in time, sit them down and talk about interacting with cops… I’m curious-
KEREL
And still do! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, and still do. And rightly so, right? They absolutely, like- Keep ‘em safe, because it’s not safe, right? Um, but I’m curious: how explicit, like- like, would you get lessons on code-switching? Like, is it really, like, specific things that were said out loud to you as lessons, or is it sort of more, like, implied or influenced? You know what I’m saying? Like, how explicit are the, like… uh, ideas that you got?
KEREL
I think it’s a little bit both?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah?
KEREL
I feel like it kind of depends on the situation. Like, especially like, say, like professional life, like in corporate America and things like that. Like, I remember, when I got into corporate America, there was a conversation with my family and friends. They were like “Oh, you’re gonna-” So, I had cornrows throughout college, and came into corporate America and I specifically [chuckles] kept them because I knew that it might rub people the wrong way but I wanted to show “It doesn’t matter what my hair looks like, I’m gonna still kick ass in this job,”-kind of thing. So there’s been comments, conversations, very maybe specific in that regard, saying “Oh, you might want to think twice about that because of X, Y, Z.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure, yeah.
KEREL
But then there’s other instances that it’s just, like, implied on a day-to-day thing, you know? And, like Dawon said, it was something that’s just so there your entire life, a lot of times you don’t even know or remember when you learned it, but you know it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KEREL
And so, some of that is just, like- The sucky part is just like it’s almost forced upon you, and it’s just like you don’t even know if it’s a nature or nurture thing because it’s so engrained because it’s been around forever. So I feel like it’s so situational-based that it’s like “Ooh, hold on… you know you can’t do that,” or “You know, we say it like this in the crib but, when we get out there, make it- elevate your voice and put the-” what we call, like, “the White voice”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
JERRELL
Mhm.
KEREL
And, you know, especially when it even comes down to, like, your name, because, like, “Kerel”, “Jerrell”, and “Dawon”, I mean, is not the quote unquote “cis White” name out there.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
And so, knowing that already, and seeing your email come through in an inbox, there’s already gonna be some bias, potentially, that’s already out there. So you already know, the second you answer that phone, “Let me at least maybe soften my Blackness so it doesn’t make someone else feel uncomfortable.” And that’s just conversations, at least in my family, that we’ve had here and there throughout the years. But, as I’ve gotten older and kind of, like, grown, at least in my professional career and things like that- And what I really love about our podcast is really showing that we can just- we can be successful in our authentic selves and being. But, as I grow my corporate career, I’ve kind of been like “You know what?” [chuckles] “You gon’ kinda get what you gon’ get at this point,” because you have seen, habitually, how good I am at what I do. So, if you still have issues by my tone, by the way I express something, and deem it “not professional”, then guess what? I’m gonna have to ask you to go do some other professional stuff, go to an AfroTech, to see how we talk professionally and things like that. Because, for your whole career, you’re taught to do the other side. Eh, you gon’ have to come on this side now, a little bit, to get maybe a little diverse view of how we say and do things as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JERRELL
If I could add to your question too as well: as a third parent who is helping raise three young Black men and a young Black woman, I have to- I’ve actually had this conversation with my nephew who just turned 13 this year. And he’s starting to get a bass in his voice, and he’s starting to get facial hair, and I had to tell him… I was like “You are a kid to me, but there are some other people who will see you as a threat, and it has nothing to do with who you are.” And so, for there, there are things that you are taught as mannerisms to soften the unknown that someone could possibly place on you because you are a Black person. For instance, you know, your body language, making sure that your hands aren’t in your pocket – you know? – making sure you’re not wearing baggy clothes, making sure… And I have to have this conversation. They are kids, but even when they were 4 or 5 years old, had to have the conversation. We gotta stop buying them Nerf guns because they will see them, as they get older, playing with these toy guns and then, again, there are people out there who put two and two together, that is arm Black man, although that is a child playing with a Nerf gun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
JERRELL
But them, being young Black kids, they don’t get that privilege of being able to be a kid because of the color of their skin.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JERRELL
Like, my nephew wanted for Christmas these, like, little toy butterfly knives. They’re literally, like, aluminum little butterfly- little knives. They can’t cut nothing, they don’t cut anything, they’re just called it, right? But I told him, I was like “But someone will see you doing that, and it looks like you have a weapon.” So, guess what, you could be perceived some kind of way. And so then you follow that up with… at the end of the day, it’s about coming home. You do whatever it is that you need to do to make sure that you’re able to come home, and we figure out how to support you, we figure out what to do next as long as you- after you get home first. So those are kind of some of the conversations that we have with our young Black children because there are some things that people will- You know, or there are some people who would judge them just off the color of the skin, and doesn’t matter the age… at all.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Jerrell, you menti- I think you were the one that mentioned, and I just wrote it down, “It’s weight.” I’m curious if, now that you’re older, maybe can unpack it? Like, what- What kind of additional weight or- How does this affect your… either mental health or, I don’t know, ability to navigate the world? Like, what weight has this added?
JERRELL
I mean, now that I weigh 220, I’m carrying this weight well. [all chuckle] But…
KEREL
He said with a Q, baby.
JERRELL
Look, um- Honestly- But, like, the weight is almost like… it’s almost like when you have to yawn but you can’t get it out and, the moment you do yawn, you’re like “Ugh, woohf.” It honestly- It’s something that I, being in corporate America, when I am there, I feel like I have to be playing a game of chess and I have to be thinking two steps ahead. “If I move this pawn, then my next move’s gonna be this and my next move’s gonna be this if they do this but, if not, then I’m gonna do this, this, this and this if they decide to do that.” It’s really taxing because it’s- Like I said before, it’s a game inside of a game. And, quite often, if you aren’t around other people like yourselves to give you that chance to actually clock out, you typically stay on all the time. Because it’s not until your around community that you really truly get to clock out of having to code-switch. Like, even in my own relationship, even with my partner – him being, you know, White, European – there are still some things I can’t say because it’s gonna go “Woop,” right over his head. So, even within my relationship, I still have to quite often code-switch so that way, for communication purposes, he understands what I’m trying to say.
DAWON
Let’s just be clear, this is not just a Black thing.
KEREL
That’s what I was gonna say too, yeah.
DAWON
Like, we can talk about examples from personal experience but, like, you know, think about how many, you know, White individuals that are out there that are coopting our language, our vernacular, our mannerisms, etc., in the gay community.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
Right? That are bastardizing the ball scene, right? You know. And, you know, who are, in effect, when they’re around their Black friends they put on their Black voice – right? – and they say all the, you know, the hyggery things that they would- they think is appropriate to say within those environments, right? But then, when they’re around their White friends, it’s, you know, Taylor Swift and bubblegum. [all chuckle] You know, it’s not- It’s not a one-way street. It’s not a one-way street, and it’s- And, you know, code-switching can be, you know, can have, you know, many positive impacts, but largely what we see within our community is the negative, the negative components of it, because it is a system of oppression. And this is a modality that we’ve had to leverage in order to survive an environment that has oppressed us and continues to oppress, you know, us. And when I say- And I’m using this more broadly, like, as a queer community, right? So, when we think about these terms, you know, I don’t want people to come away from this podcast thinking that this is a Black or White thing, right? Everybody code-switch? Well, let me rephrase: most people code-switch – right? – in some way, shape, or form. And their intention could be “I just want to survive.” We think about, you know, our beautiful trans brothers, and sisters, and those in between, and having to live a life in a way where their body is betraying who they are, who they really are, and having to code-switch in order to just exist.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
DAWON
Right? You know, it is something that we all experience, and I long for the day where these conversations are extinct, because we are operating from a mindset that… Let people show up who they are, and judge them for who they are, not what we want them to be.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
DAWON
And, until we can get to that place, we’re gonna continue to have these kinds of conversations.
MIKE JOHNSON and KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, and I’ll add… Yeah, I think everyone does to some degree. You walk into corporate America, you probably won’t – even if you’re White and straight – you’re probably going to speak a little bit differently than usual. And the privilege though is not to have the extra burden of additional work to do, like, mostly the way that you speak is deemed acceptable but you don’t have a too much of an extra burden placed on you, so you still- Even though everyone code-switches a little, there’s still that privilege that comes along with being White, with being straight, with fitting into the mainstream culture’s expectations of what you look like, that means that we won’t totally understand what it’s like to be Black, to be queer, to be brown, to walk into a space that they have to do work on top of that.
KEREL
And even just even within the queer community. I mean, we’ve all been in those situations where it’s, like, the straight bro, and you feel like you gotta bro it up a little bit and things like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [Mike and Dawon chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
KEREL
I feel like, a lot of times, people say “Oh, it’s a hard concept to grasp.” I’m like “No, you do this shit all the time. You get it, but you just choose not to get it.” [laughs]
DAWON
All day every day.
JERRELL
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
DAWON
Look, you put somebody- If you go to the corporate scenario, like- or any work scenario, and you have the opportunity to get a promotion, you know how to code-switch real fast. You figure it out. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KEREL
Real quick. You tryna get that coin! [Jerrell and Mike laugh]
DAWON
You figure it out.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
DAWON
You figure it out. You’re like “My boss talks this way? I’mma talk this way. My boss likes golf and… whatever?”-
KEREL
Tiger Tiger Woods, y’all. [all laughing]
DAWON
[holding back laughter] -“I’m gonna figure it out.” [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, goodness.
KYLE GETZ
What about, like, queer- Like, to me, the thing that I can most identify with this is: I remember growing up and, if I let any kind of – it’s more of the behavioral, but – if I let anything slip, of things I liked, things- like, certain ways of talking that would reveal that I might be gay, I-
DAWON
Girl.
KYLE GETZ
That- I hid that-
DAWON
Don’t sit in that “s” a little too long. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Well, I think my voice changed when I stopped having to monitor it and just started talking like I talk. It, like- I think there’s so- I think everyone is like- Even my brother was like “Well, you don’t have to change or act like a different person just because you’re, like, gay now. You can s-” and it was like “Oh, you didn’t know that, all this time, was a fake version of me.”
DAWON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like “You didn’t know that who I am now is the more authentic version.” [Jerrell laughs] So yeah, I’m curious, including, like, how the, like, being in the closet kind of affected your masking or code-swit- When you’re in the closet it’s mostly masking, because you’re not- there’s no code-switching. Like, maybe online, I don’t know, on Craigslist, when I was asking to get, like, fucked, maybe there was some- [Jerrell laughs] maybe that’s when I could be authentically gay, but, like, I don’t know when else I had, to be myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
The, like- The “fake me” versus “real me” thing is, like, it’s, I think, a question that I’ll never have an answer to, right? Like, I am pretty- Like, not gross “masc4masc” way, but I think I’m pretty masculine, I present pretty masculine, and I will never know “Is that-?” And it feels natural, I don’t feel like it’s something that I’m putting on, but I don’t think I’ll ever know whether… Like, would I still be exactly like this if I had come out as a teenager instead of at age 30 and had permission to… not be this way? I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Well, you’ve talked about seeing your wrist on a home movie once.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What happened there?
MIKE JOHNSON
It was a family reunion and we were doin’- My family’s weird as hell and we do, like, parades and shit, and we had a 4th of July parade, and there’s this, like, camcorder video and I’m like, 11, 12 years old and I’m holding an American flag and, like, waving this flag walking around in this parade, and I remember just being absolutely fucking mortified at how faggy my wrist looked in this video. [Dawon chuckles] Yeah! Yeah!
DAWON
Yes, queen! [all laugh] Wave that flag, bitch! Yass!
KYLE GETZ
To your credit, you were in a parade.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. That’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Which, [Jerrell laughs] you know… they set you up for gayness there.
JERRELL
It’s kind of gay.
KYLE GETZ
It’s kind of gay already. [chuckles]
KEREL
And that baton and everything. [Karel and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to ask you guys… Like, the corporate world is the White straight dude world for the most part, which is, like, super unfair and shitty but it’s true, and so you talked a lot about code-switching and masking in the context of race, but do you also go to the office and act straighter? Can you compare and contrast those functions?
DAWON
Not anymore.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not anymore?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, “Not anymore,” I love that answer.
DAWON
No. Yeah. I feel like one of the benefits of getting a little longer in the tooth is being able to step into who you are authentically and not give as much of a damn in terms of what other people think about you, because you know not only what your worth is as an individual, but you also know what your worth is, and what you bring to an organization, and that you also know that you have options. I think, earlier in one’s career, I can only speak for myself, but I also mentor a lot of other people and this seems to be a common thread. There’s a lot of insecurity, you know, because you’re doing this- this is your first rodeo, you’re building your career, you’re learning how the ropes work, how to navigate those waters, who to network with, how to deliver your work in such a way that it speaks not only highly of your team but also you and advances your career. Like, there are a lot of things that you’re learning on the fly but, once you’ve learned those lessons, you’re able to lean on that level of expertise and you’re able to navigate those waters and move a little bit differently. So, you know, for somebody who’s a little bit further along in their career, and a little bit more settled, certainly a lot more settled into the person that I am, there is no masking. I “girl” all day. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] You could be the CEO, you can be the investors, you can be the person on the street, and you can be my subordinate, we girl, and we kiki, and we talkin’ but we gon’ get this shit done, because I know how to navigate these waters. But not everybody can say that. And even that is a privilege.
KEREL
Yeah, I was just thinking, it’s just, like, when it kind of comes to masking and code-switching, for the longest there was almost this pressure and this force of having to do it. I think one thing, now, that kind of maybe takes your power back is “No, I get to decide how to play this game, you don’t get to decide how I play this game,” and determining when I need to girl it up and when I don’t need to girl it up. And it’s not because I feel some pressure from you, it’s “I am in charge of the game now,” [chuckles] and I know when it’s gonna better my hand and my situation. And I think that’s something that, similar to what Dawon was just saying, that you kind of just learn and hopefully grow into as you get a little more comfortable in your skin. And I feel like, even though I was somewhat comfortable in my skin before, it’s a whole nother level now. And… And it may be too a privilege of me having been successful and things like that. So, like, some of that comes with success, like, proving that you can do the job, proving that, you know, what you’re doing is bringing money to the company at the end of the day. But, again, me choosing how I play this game now is something that I’ve had to learn over time that, if I feel like code-switching today to get what I need to get done, guess what, I’mma do it. But it’s not because I feel some weird pressure anymore from whatever they- them is.
JERRELL
Yeah. And I consider myself a bro gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
A “bro gay”? [all chuckle]
JERRELL
Yeah. Like, I mean- And the aunties will tell you, like, I play sports all damn day. I played three games of softball yesterday, had two today, got volleyball leagues, flag football, kickball, dodgeball, did- I did all the sports. So, at work, I fit in a lot with the bros because of the fact that I love sports so much. So I don’t necessarily have to, because I already have almost a connection to that kind of- some of that bro-ism when it comes to sports. So, for me, it’s almost a privilege where I kind of get accepted because of that, and I still bring all my queerness though because I also like to use it in the moment to make sure that when I’m hanging around these straight men, that they’re also getting that diversity of queer people being just as into sports, you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JERRELL
And a gay Black man can go out there and hoop with you and still dunk at the age of 35. And we’ll get out here and win a 100, you know, in less than 11 seconds with you, bitch. Or we’ll get out here and intercept your ball, or whatever the case is, in any God damn sport, right?
KEREL
He didn’t put that cheerleader outfit on [???] tomorrow.
JERRELL
[everyone else laughs] Look, [???], right? Stare you down. Like, that’s one of the things that I love about sports because, growing up when I hadn’t come out yet, that was one of the hard parts for me, was I was good at sports but I wasn’t able to share a part of me, which was my queerness, because there’s so much of that toxicity in sports. And now, being an adult, I’m like “Oh, no, bitch, I’m gonna play these sports and you’re gonna get this side of me too so that y’all know we can be just as good as y’all.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. A tiny bit of a pivot, but, I know it’s not a competition by any means and I’m very, very curious about code-switching and masking considering where you live, right? Like, Kerel and Dawon, you live in much more racially diverse cities than Jerrell who’s in Seattle, and, let’s face it, it’s cracker White here. I’m wondering if you think that that makes it easier or harder, from, like, a code-switching perspective.
DAWON
I would say that the company that I worked for is predominantly San Francisco/Seattle-based.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Ahh.
DAWON
So, from that perspective, no. [all chuckle] You know. Like, where I spend- Where I spend the majority of my week is in those spaces. So, for me, it’s less about the environment, it’s more about- I think, Kerel, you said it really well, it’s the notion of using code-switching and masking as a survival technique, versus using it as a point of leverage in order to get what I want or accomplish what I need to get accomplished, right? It’s a different of a mindset, and I’d be curious to hear what the other aunties have to say, but, for me, it’s less about, you know, the city that I’m in. Let me take that a step back: I aspire to be in a city like New York because of its diversity. You know, when I moved to New York I lived in Hell’s Kitchen first and… that’s where all the gay bars are. Gay, gay, gay all day, day. But what it was missing was flavor. Not Flavor Magazine, for those that know that. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KEREL
[???]
DAWON
But it was missing flavor from the neighborhood. And so now I live in Harlem, and I live in Harlem because I wanted an environment- Two reasons. One, because my best friend and his partner live up here and I wanted to be closer to him. Two, because the neighborhood that they that they lived in, you know, was incredibly racially diverse, predominantly Black and Latino. And so, you know, I wanted to be- When I walk out of my house, I want to hear multiple languages. I want- I love that melting pot of diversity, and so you’ll be hard pressed to find me ever wanting to move to – and, sorry about it, but – like Montana, or Utah, or, you know, potentially even Seattle. Why? Because the opportunity to be surrounded by people that look different than me, other than just Whiteness, you know, is important to me and the quality of life that I want to live. It is very, very possible to be a Black person and thriving in a predominantly-White space. I don’t aspire to do that. [all laugh]
JERRELL
And so, to Dawon’s point, I would say then to Mike’s question that it is a privilege, because living in Seattle, where I don’t have what you have, Dawon, in Harlem. You know, I get my Blackness, a sense of community, by going to the Safeway that I live above, because that’s where the Black and brown folks work at. Or, because I live near a central district, there are a couple of Black-owned restaurants I can go to and get some flavor. Okay? [Mike and Kyle chuckle] But, for the most part, I don’t get to see, you know, those who look like us. And so, to my question, I would say “Yes, the city does play a role in how often you get to clock out of having to code-switch,” because when I’m in Seattle I have to think about those same things I think about even when I’m clocked in at work. I walked down the street and I have to think about those same mannerisms that I think about when I’m at work. I have to think about how do I communicate when I’m ordering a drink or going to a restaurant that is not diverse, you know? Those same questions that I think about with code-switching at work exist in the city as well. So yes, Mike, it is a difference when you live in a city that isn’t as diverse.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m wondering: in Seattle, do you ever experience, like, pressure to be extra Black?
JERRELL
Honestly yeah, I really do. But here’s the thing: I think the pressure comes from within our community because we go so long without seeing each other. So, the pressure is more so to create a space for each other and let you know “Hey, I see you, you can be yourself with me,” you know? Like, in Seattle, in the last… probably like two or three years, there has been a shift of Black folks being more intentional about having spaces, you know, that allow us to kind of check out and be ourselves, whether it’s a brunch, or it’s an R&B, you know, like, you know, evening party, or whatever the case is. So there is a little bit of a pressure. But there’s also a pressure to also make sure that I hold allies accountable by making sure that they get to see Black folks in spaces that they predominantly operate in as well too, because you don’t know what you don’t know. And if I don’t bring my authentic self to those primarily White spaces, I personally feel I’m not allowing or helping my allies understand that we are a monolith, and there are different shades of Black, and Black people can come in different forms and ideas, etc.
KEREL
And we’re not a monolith, yeah.
JERRELL
Yeah, yeah. So that’s the kind of the pressure that I get here in Seattle.
KEREL
Yeah, it’s a- That’s an interesting question because I’ve said that since- So, I’ve moved all over this country it feels like, but when I moved to Atlanta it was the first time in my life that a city had to adapt to Black culture. Like, if you weren’t Black in that city you might be the one might need to do some code-switching and things like that. And it was incredible to see just the wide range of Blackness. Moving to Philadelphia last year, people were like “Oh, yeah, you know, it’s a Black city. You know.” I’m like “Okay, whatever, it is what it is. We’ll see when I get there,” and it’s still palpable the difference. And Atlanta’s just like its own thing in this world, I’m finding out. Like, it’s just a different city and it’s incredible. But the comeback to Philadelphia, I’m like “Oh, yeah. Ohh, yeah, this is what it feels like to actually be in reality,” quite frankly. Because you do find yourself potentially second guessing. And I’m glad I’m in this city at the age I’m at now because, again, I’m picking and choosing how I play the game, not feeling forced to do so. But I told Cory, my husband, when we moved here, I was like “It’s different. This is back to what it was before Atlanta.” So there definitely is something about potential more racially-diverse cities, living in, compared to, like, growing up in small-town Michigan. It’s definitely a true factor, but I would say there are- there is diversity, you gotta seek it out and you gotta want to find it and find those mentors, find those communities to tap into so you can just feel sane.
DAWON
But, you know what? Can we kick the question back to you all? Like, we’ve been talking a lot about our experiences in terms of masking and code-switching. You know, when you think about your queerness and you think about your own personal experience, I’d be curious, you know, what are some examples from your own personal lives where you felt perhaps a pressure to code-switch? I know a lot of- You know, Mike, you mentioned this notion of, you know, being very kind of masc-presenting, you know, and when you think about your circle of friends, have you ever felt the pressure to fem it up and maybe even leaned into that even though it might not have felt natural to you but for the space that you’re in and you’re like “I’m gonna put on some lipstick and a wig and I’mma, you know, shift my shoulders a little sissily,”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] I feel that at work, actually. So, I did a bunch of stuff last year to make myself the head gay on my team. And so, I do find myself being a little extra just to remind people, like, “We work really closely together but you-” like, “I want you to know I’m super gay.” But I also work at Salesforce which is, like, you know, a San Francisco-based company that is, you know-
JERRELL
Girl.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know. [all laugh]
KEREL
Period.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then the opposite is true when I go home. I grew up in Trump country and I, like, I butch it up, and I dress more conservatively, baggier clothes, and, you know, I really do monitor a lot more what I say and do, and that’s just- Especially now. Shit is so, like, toxic in large swathes of the country, like, for drag queens and trans people and it just feels like they’re coming for the whole community and I have the privilege of flying under the radar for the most part. And… I don’t know, it- Yeah, that’s- I’m just rambling. [Jerrell chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
You had recently sat down and had dinner with me and my parents.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I’m curious if you remember/noticed if I was acting differently around them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, you… You’re an enigma around your parents. [Kyle chuckles] Like, you give the shortest possible answer that answers question without, like, elaborating.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, man, maybe you sat down when I was already frustrated with them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, maybe. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
So maybe you got frustrated-me instead of, uh… Yeah. Yeah, I definitely still think about this, and it’s getting better as, like- My dad has started listening to the podcast and I’ve had to tell him to stop it, like, so at least he knows that, like, he’s heard me when I’m just authentically talking to a friend. So, I’m not- I’m still not gonna talk completely like this. I’ve, like- Every now and then I’ll drop a curse word and then, you know, look around. It’ll be like- more like a joke that I’m, like, saying a curse word, and see how they react or whatever. Like, yeah, I’m much different around family, for sure.
DAWON
I recently had this conversation with my mom, very same conversation. She’s been listening since- I don’t want to say “since day one”, but shortly after day one she started listening. And she and I were talking and she was like “Yeah, you know, you talk really differently with your friends than you do with me,” and I’d say “Yeah, mom, because we talking about dicks, and fucking, and all that stuff,” [all chuckle] “I’m not gonna talk about that stuff with you.” So the context of the conversation is gonna be completely different. Um, but it’s interesting when your parents have insight into-
KEREL
Mhm.
DAWON
Your parents know you through a certain lens, and one of the things that a podcast does is it gives you addit- it gives others additional insight into not only who you are as a person, but how you think and how you move and navigate and, you know, it might be something counter to what their experience of you may be, and so I can totally relate to your experience and having this kind of like come to Jesus moment with, [Kyle chuckles] you know, a parent about what they learned about us [chuckles] through the podcast.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! Yeah-
KEREL
Like “He was really sucking dick in that back room like that?” [all laughing]
JERRELL
[doing a mom voice] I raised you better than that!
DAWON
[mom voice] I thought I raised you better than that!
JERRELL
[mom voice] [slaps] Get some doggone brains!
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I have to tell my dad everything is a lie. Oh, no, no, no, that was a lie. That was just a lie. [everyone else laughs] Everything I say on the podcast is a lie. I think it’s made me think a little bit more about what I want my relationship with my dad to be, and I want to be able to tell him some things but he doesn’t need to know the same level of detail as my friends.
KEREL
Right.
KYLE GETZ
So I’ve become more thoughtful about, like… I can. He’s listened to it so he’s open to more of me, so what do I want to share with him? What do I want to not share with him? And I don’t need him to know how many guys I fucked one weekend. Like, he doesn’t need to know that, but it’s okay for him to know that I’m-
DAWON
Yeah, I do the rest.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] But it’s okay if he knows that I’m dating, you know? Like, there- So it helped me establish a lot.
DAWON
“Dating”! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
[Mike laughs] “Dating” is the word we use. [all chuckle] I dated like 7 guys this weekend.
KEREL
Okay, “dating” is code-switching for “fucking”. Got it. [all laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. The other piece that resonated with me, because masking talked a little bit more about, like, disabilities and people, like, hiding certain traits they have… Being depressed, a lot of – I think, similar to the discussion of gayness – like, a lot of it is pretending that you’re not feeling what you’re feeling. Like, how do I- When I interact with people, how do I bring a version of me that is happy, upbeat, lighthearted, that’s fun, that you want to hang out with, instead of what I may authentically be feeling? Which is, like… I don’t want to bring depressed-me to a party and just be like, [mopingly] “Hey, buddy. I’m gonna go sit in the corner and just look at the ground.” Like, I don’t- You know, I feel like there is a part of me that, with depression, I have to show a different part of me to people I’m around.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s fair. Yeah.
KEREL
Yeah. That’s an interesting thought, because it’s just like… What is that- What’s the terminology or the communication set that we can maybe evolve to say “Okay, I’m not okay, but I’m fine for now,”? And it’s like, “I don’t want to bring it down.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
KEREL
You know, it’s like how do we evolve to saying how we really feel, but then still allowing everyone to still, if they’re in a jovial mode or mood and things like that, to still kind of live that that life and that space. So, no, I think that’s a huge conversation we need to have and I don’t know what the answer quite is.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JERRELL
That was one of the things that I had to learn with battling depression, especially the episode I had back in 2019, was I had to stop faking it. Because the moment that I was faking it for other people, I was harming myself. And I had to start saying… The only way I can show up for the people that I care about, to the best of my ability, is by being honest with them and letting them know “I can’t pour into you today,” don’t mean “I don’t love you,” I just don’t have that to give. “So, I just want you to know, I’ll see you tomorrow. [chuckles] We’ll try again on a new day.” And, if the people love you, they are going to respect that and understand “Hey, today is just not a day that you can do that.” But I had to understand that it’s okay to put yourself first, and to make sure that you put the life jacket on you first, then help the person on the plane next to you, right? Like, that saying is actually real, and especially when you apply it to your life when you’re going through depression. Because, also, I take meds as well too, but a lot of the work has to be done individually. And the only way I can truly do that work is by letting people know that that’s where my focus is.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, I think the- Like, even on days- I’m lucky, in the friend group that I have, that I have been able to be more honest with my group. So, sometimes, when I would be able to show up but I wouldn’t be able to show up as a happy, friendly, bouncing off the wall kind of person, they would be okay with me showing up and I’m just gonna sit here quietly, not talk, I’m just- I’m gonna look like I’m having a terrible time but you know I’m just in a bad place and it helps me to be here around you and not say anything and not do anything, and you all keep doing what you’re doing, keep acting- keep having fun. And me just being able to know that I don’t have to- that that lowers the barrier of me hanging out with people because I don’t have to do a ton of more work in order to be there, and they’re aware of what’s going on for me so they don’t have- they’re not gonna just sit there and be like “Let’s check in, what’s going on?” Like, they know that the check in is- it’s bad. [chuckles] Like, you know, like, you already know the answer. It’s bad. So then you can know that just me sitting here being with you, even if doesn’t look like it, is useful and helpful. And I think that’s one way- Like, letting- I think, whoever said, like, “Letting people show up the way they are, how they are, whatever they’re feeling, whatever-” like, and just being accepting of that, has been extremely useful.
JERRELL
You’re about to make me boohoo like Kerel. [Kerel and Kyle chuckle] I normally don’t boohoo. But, like, I totally understand that feeling, Kyle, and it’s… it is such a loving feeling. It feels really good when your friends just let you just be. And it’s not like… They’re not making you feel like you’re bringing the party down or you’re bringing them down. They’re like “No. I see you, you’re good, all right. Just let us know if you need anything,” and you can just process it without that extra added guilt of “Damn, I’m fuckin’ up my life, am I fuckin’ up theirs too?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JERRELL
That just- That level of love when your friends do that for you is just… it feels so good. And these two do this for me all the time, so, I just-
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
JERRELL
That’s why I was gonna boohoo, because I see the two faces that show up for me like that all the time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Tears really are good for episodes, so tell me more about that feeling. [everyone else laughs] And if you could, really get into it deep. [laughs] No, no, no, I-
DAWON
But isn’t that the power- Isn’t that the power of discussion and disclosure? Right? Because if you think about 10 years ago, or even right before the pandemic nearly 5 years ago – right? – there was not nearly the amount of open discussion about mental health, personal wellness, and, you know, seeking help, professional help, having conversations with, you know, with your doctor, your therapist, your friends, your rabbi, your whomever, you know, to unpack these things, and disclosing these things when one feels that that’s appropriate for them to disclose, and that’s a decision that they make individually. But, like, disclosing that, it- There is so much power in being able to say out loud, and being vulnerable, and expressing what you’re going through. And I think, again, this is why having a platform like this is so impactful, because we are able to openly discuss these kinds of conversations and so many people are gonna be listening to this podcast right now saying “I feel that too, what Jerrell is feeling, what Kerel is feeling-” Like, what we’re feeling, what you’re talking about, is something I’ve felt, and I haven’t heard that anywhere else. And this becomes a catalyst for them being seen and realizing that they’re not alone in their experience.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Go listen to Minoritea Report, everyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] That’s a good time to plug your show-
KEREL
New episodes every Monday.
KYLE GETZ
-for people bringing their authentic selves to a conversation. Well, is there anything else?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think we’ll- We’ll probably take a break. While we’re on break, you guys, would you mind playing a game for Patreon?
JERRELL, KEREL, and DAWON
Yeah.
DAWON
Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, we’ll play a little game and then, uh- But yeah, we’ll take a break. When we come back, we’ll do our Gayest & Straightest and all of that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do it!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Alright, let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
We are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, aunties, tell us all about Minoritea Report, what’re you up to, where people can find you… tell us all the things.
KEREL
Yeah! Minoritea Report, new episodes every single Monday wherever you listen to podcast. So, obviously, you know, the Apples, Spotifys, the Googles, all that stuff. But also, every episode’s on YouTube as well. So, if you prefer to see us visually, and see all this gorgeousness, and all this melanation on the screen, check us out on YouTube as well. We put the full episodes up there. And then, also, if you like merch, “Wash your hands, wash your legs, wash your ass,” you can get that at minoriteareport.com. So check out the merch over there as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaah! So awesome. Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
Our socials: we are on Facebook Groups, we have a Discord, we have Spaces, @gayishpodcast for everything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
And one note: we will be on Minoritea Report, so our episode comes out May 29th. So, if you want a good way to insert yourself into the listening process, [Dawon chuckles] you can get inserted at- [chuckles] on May 29th. Go take a listen and then go back to their full back catalogue. You got a lot of podcast you gotta catch up, 4 years. So, if you’re like me-
KEREL
Over 220-somethin’ episodes.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. That’s impressive. If you’re like me, that’s a good thing. It’s like “Okay, I need my thing now that I’m gonna be binging,” so you’ve got your brand new binge right here.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, uh, in just two weeks from now we will be at The Spot in Hell’s Kitchen on the island of Manhattan in New York City. You can see tickets for that show and all the rest of our upcoming tour stops at gayishpodcast.com/live.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, let’s do our Gayest & Straightest.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I will go first.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. The straightest thing about me this week is I went to a, like- it’s my sister-in-law’s niece’s law school graduation party. Ended up talking to her dad, at length, about tailgating techniques, meaning, like, partying in a parking lot of a sports event.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know there’re techniques other than, like, get a cooler with beer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, well, like, [Jerrell laughs] you want a grill and you need, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, you got to have like a certain kind of, like, the briquettes or whatever. And, like, just had a whole spiel. Tailgating is very straight.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and then the gayest thing about me this week was, uh, I was at the bar last week and the Kraken game was on, which, that should have been my straightest, but I got super hit on by this woman who was like all decked out in Kraken gear too. And, um, I let her know that she was barking up the wrong tree by loudly mentioning my ex-husband to the bartender Barrett, who’s a friend of mine. Uh, and she got the hint.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Did she disappear very quickly after that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. And talk about code-switching, I just was like- I just, like, super gayed it up and talked about my ex, and, like, made it clear.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Nice. Uh, how ‘bout you, Kyle?
KEREL
What is “Kraken”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, the Seattle Kraken? That’s our hockey team.
KEREL
Oh, okay. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
A Kraken is like a octopus monster, kinda.
JERRELL
But it’s a troll as a mascot.
KYLE GETZ
But the troll is a mascot, it’s so dumb.
JERRELL
It’s- Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
It doesn’t make any sense to me.
JERRELL
Yeah. None.
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is I hosted our D&D group wearing these cute pink shorts that I busted out for summer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, they’re very pink.
KYLE GETZ
Very bright pink.
JERRELL
Cute!
KYLE GETZ
And they, like, kind of fit me because I’ve lost a little weight and so I can actually put them on. So they were still a little tight though. And my straightest are the board shorts that I’m wearing today. [Mike and Jerrell chuckle] I have both kinds of shorts, I have straight and gay shorts available for the summer.
JERRELL
[laughs] Still cute.
KYLE GETZ
Still cute, yeah! Who wants to go next?
DAWON
Yeah, so the gayest thing that I did: I had my headphones in listening to Beyoncé because I’m gonna be seeing her soon and, as one does when listening to Beyoncé, I started model walking [Mike and Kyle chuckle] in the subway thinking that I was there by myself but there was a person that was right behind me that was watching the entire thing, and I only noticed it when I did a pirouette and turned around and saw her! [all laugh] And we locked eyes.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s magical.
DAWON
She gave me the nod of approval.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, nice! There you go.
JERRELL
Yeah, yeah.
DAWON
Yeah, yeah, and then the straightest thing was I put together a grill today.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh!
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
JERRELL
Okay, butch queen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow!
KYLE GETZ
That’s impressive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like a- Like a Weber, we’re talkin’? Propane?
DAWON
A Char-Broil electric grill but it’s, like, double barrel. I had to put all the pieces together. It’s like 100 pounds. It’s-
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
DAWON
It was pretty- pretty task worthy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, good work. [chuckles]
JERRELL
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
That’s impressive.
KEREL
I would say my straightest moment of the week was… So, Dawon and I went and saw Janet Jackson in New York City. So, the opener was Ludacris and I was so- I, like, remember their damn lyric from [laughs] rappin’ the shit out of Ludacris. I was like “Okay, I’m over here extra broing up right now,” and I was over here [singing] “Got a nice package alright, guess I’m gonna have to ride it tonight.” [Mike laughs] So my straightest and gayest occurred literally in the same evening. [everyone else laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Love it.
JERRELL
Um, my Gayish is I- We’re going to see Beyoncé in a couple of weeks and I’m wearing heels with my outfit. So I actually went out on Friday night to break ‘em in. So I walked like probably five miles in these heels to break ‘em in, to get used to it, and then also dancing and everything. So that was probably the gayest thing I’ve done this week.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
JERRELL
The straightest thing I did was ask my friend for golfing lessons for a straight bachelor party that I’m going to back in Minnesota in the middle of nowhere [Kyle chuckles] in August. And so, really straight.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, somebody seems surprised. We said that golf was really straight and somebody was surprised by that and, like, how are you surprised by that?
KYLE GETZ
Golf is so straight. [Mike chuckles]
DAWON
The outfits are horrible. [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah!
JERRELL
Horrible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, Kerel, Jerrell, and Dawon, thank you so, so, so much for being here. It was lovely as always to see your beautiful faces, and, uh, really appreciate the chat.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Everyone, go check out Minoritea Report.
KEREL
Well, thanks for having us, boys. Appreciate it.
JERRELL
Yeah, thanks for having us, ladies. Yass!
DAWON
Thank you!
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you to Harry Shaw for requesting this episode topic, we really appreciate it. Hope everyone learned a little something. Um, and I want to thank all of our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that is it!
KYLE GETZ
Whew!
DAWON
Woohoo!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, right? Uh, this has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
See ya next week.
KYLE GETZ
See ya.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bye aunties!
KEREL
Bye boo.
DAWON
Later y’all.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
JERRELL
[door shuts] Sorry, my friend just, uh, mooned me. [all laugh]
KEREL
Move the camera over! [all chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Pan camera left.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]